90 votes on the poll at the time of this post, and only 30%, less than 1/3 of respondents say the Holy Trinity is the most fun you can have in an online RPG.

I think this is where you get the solo vs group divide in MMORPGs.

If you're not really into the kind of serious close coordination the holy trinity game mechanics provide, but something closer to a mini zerg, grouping just isn't that important a feature in the game, and doesn't need that much support.

This leads to the kind of game design we see now. I don't really need you to level, you don't really need me, we can both easily solo to the level cap. We can group now and then, but we dont' really have to pay close attention to what the other is doing, and we can just jump in a group, zerg the boss for the phat lewt every now and then at the end of a quest line, kthanx bye, back to the solo quest grind.

That's a very different game experience from being encouraged to group during the entire leveling phase, and soloing now and then while looking for a group, or deciding to spend the real extra time and effort it takes to solo to the level cap.

I know there is probably a lot of people who don't like the tank/healer/DPS idea,but they need to remember a couple things.

1 that "IS" what defines RPG's,it goes way back to that design.It does not mean you can't find variations to create new ideas, but there is a reason you really can't..point 2.

2 The reason you really can't change the structure is simple and no matter how you slice and dice it,the reason is that ,the mob can ONLY be striking one foe at a time.SO it only makes sense to keep a fight well structured so that it is ORGANIZED.I mean even a poorly designed RAID fight still has the players trying to organize it as best they can,so that theory never goes away.

What is your other option?uncontrolled Chaos,i cannot see anyone enjoying that option,it not only makes no sense ,but is sloppy game play.

What makes for great combat is how the game structures the hate formula's.I have seen in many games where it is done VERY poorly and to most,i do not think they even understand how it works,they just blindly play.Many games have what i call "cheap"auto aggro,witch basically means ,no matter what anyone does,the mob starts it's hate at the healer and works from there.

I really do not think crowd control ideas are good,they again fall into my "cheap" mechanic,like rooting or completely removing mobs from fighting,example "FEAR" mechanics that can make a mob run.It not only is cheap but looks unrealistic,the mob runs in fear ,then automatically does a 360 once the timer is up.I think at the very least ,using a mechanic such as that ,should ONLY cause fear to the one that casts the spell,then the HATE meter should switch to the next in line,the mob should not totally run from the whole party.So it should be a mechanic to drop him down the hate meter more so than a fear mechanic.

This is why i look to the combat structure in games as the place i find the most enjoyment.I think most players just look at killing as a mechanic to level up,they find no enjoyment form combat and in most cases ,call it a grind.Most of the WOW generation of player,think they should be rewarded for killing,not just some reward but a large one,again anything less,they use the term "grind",to the people who actually play for fun,combat is just that ,a challenge and fun,we do not look to rewards for satisfaction.

The basic 3 type structure works,because it is designed to allow a group to co ordinate abilities,it allows for careful consideration when using spells and abilities,there is other players to worry about ,other than just yourself,witch is why solo play really waters down combat,to where it is not even enjoyable.

Originally posted by Wizardry

I

2 The reason you really can't change the structure is simple and no matter how you slice and dice it,the reason is that ,the mob can ONLY be striking one foe at a time.SO it only makes sense to keep a fight well structured so that it is ORGANIZED.I mean even a poorly designed RAID fight still has the players trying to organize it as best they can,so that theory never goes away.

What is your other option?uncontrolled Chaos,i cannot see anyone enjoying that option,it not only makes no sense ,but is sloppy game play.

I think most players in current solo friendly games not only enjoy that option, but openly ask for more if it in many of the threads we see here.

The only thing the Holy Trinity does is make everyone identical. All healers are expected to fit a particular mold, all tanks are supposed to be the same, etc.  It does away with individuality when everyone has to be interchangable so you can jump into any group and fulfill the exact same functions.

No thanks, I pass.

Originally posted by Cephus404

The only thing the Holy Trinity does is make everyone identical. All healers are expected to fit a particular mold, all tanks are supposed to be the same, etc.  It does away with individuality when everyone has to be interchangable so you can jump into any group and fulfill the exact same functions.

No thanks, I pass.

As opposed to everyone in the game being a tank mage? That's what you think is "unique" in a game?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

As opposed to everyone in the game being a tank mage? That's what you think is "unique" in a game?

No, it's about having lots of choices and having none of those choices being so much better than the alternatives that you have a wide range of character types and character builds.  Every character is an individual, not a min/max stereotype.

But you knew that, this is just another of your ridiculous "I want to group!" threads where you've already seen that you're in the minority.  Give up already.

@ Cephus404

Consider 'the mold' you reference earlier.. who is to say that 'all healers' need to fill it? Even by using conventional terms of healing, there are quite a few ways you can incorporate the mechanic:

- Cast heals

- Instant-cast heals

- Heal over time

- Direct heals

- Preemptive heals (when hit, heal for x)

- Protection heals (shields for x, acts as an addition to health)

These are 6 examples that can be mixed and matched and included or excluded from certain 'classes' of 'healer' to make all healers play in a very unique way. There doesn't need to be a 'mold' that 'all healers' need to fit into.

This sample breakdown of how a single mechanic can be shaped and used can easily be applied to a 'tank' or a 'controller' or a 'utility' or a 'dps' or any other sort of class classification you should choose to have a unique denominator.

Edit: Format.

I don't know about holy trinity but can someone explain to me how a cloth wearing priest can take down a fully plated warrior?

Originally posted by Briansho

I don't know about holy trinity but can someone explain to me how a cloth wearing priest can take down a fully plated warrior?

We're not talking about a RL priest, we're talking about someone who has a direct connection to an actual deity and can use that connection to obliterate you in their god's name.

That, and imbalanced games aren't fun.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

90 votes on the poll at the time of this post, and only 30%, less than 1/3 of respondents say the Holy Trinity is the most fun you can have in an online RPG.

Well you didn't exactly word it "do you like playing a distinct, interesting role in RPGs?"   Wording of the poll has a good deal of impact.

Your poll was basically a step away from "Do you enjoy the same tired old mechanic you've seen in a hundred games?" which doesn't exactly get people excited to vote yes, even if role-based gameplay ends up being an excellent catalyst for the types of gaming communities player like.

Originally posted by pojung

@ Cephus404

Consider 'the mold' you reference earlier.. who is to say that 'all healers' need to fill it? Even by using conventional terms of healing, there are quite a few ways you can incorporate the mechanic:

- Cast heals

- Instant-cast heals

- Heal over time

- Direct heals

- Preemptive heals (when hit, heal for x)

- Protection heals (shields for x, acts as an addition to health)

These are 6 examples that can be mixed and matched and included or excluded from certain 'classes' of 'healer' to make all healers play in a very unique way. There doesn't need to be a 'mold' that 'all healers' need to fit into.

This sample breakdown of how a single mechanic can be shaped and used can easily be applied to a 'tank' or a 'controller' or a 'utility' or a 'dps' or any other sort of class classification you should choose to have a unique denominator.

Edit: Format.

No, but each class is expected to hold to a specific build. Class A, at level X, needs to have a certain set of gear, a certain set of spells, a certain type of weapon so they fit into the generic party dynamic. Every character in every class is essentially identical so they can fit seamlessly into any PUG that comes down the pike, otherwise they just don't get picked to be in parties. There isn't a lot of wiggle room provided in any particular class. You can have 10 healer classes, but each class is going to have a certain standard that anyone playing that class is going to need to hold to or never get to join a team.

It doesn't matter if you have warriors and berserkers, the warriors are all going to be the same and the berserkers are all going to be the same. It doesn't matter if you have mages and enchanters, the mages will all be functionally identical and so will the enchanters. It's exactly what the current grouping system requires.

When you were talking about the "Holy Trinity", I thought you were talking about the game mechanic where a one player plays 3 characters at once...(for example: Sword of the New World)

Allods online is going to have something like that where you control 3 furry characters at once...

@ Cephus404

You're viewing things from a current gameplay perspective that is the standard with most MMOs currently on the market. Don't.

If you offer talents or skills or gear, of which the best possible combination cannot be had, then you will never run into that issue. Or, embrace instead a concept where there are more niche's available than there are 'healer classes' (since we're running with that as our example). If such is the case, no one will be 'forced into the mold' per se.

Let's use gear. And let's itemize gameplay into 4 broad categories. Let's have each of those categories yield gear that helps to further that categories' style of play. Since we're dealing with a combat mechanic, we'll use those as our standards.

Small PvE- 1 'group'. Focuses on fast ability regeneration.

Small PvP- 1 'group'. Focuses on burst ability usage.

Large PvE- 10 'groups'. Focuses on sustained 'burst' usage.

Large PvP- 5 'groups'. Focuses on 'burst' survival (health points).

Let's have each of our 4 breakdowns use gear that rewards that style of play. BUT, for the best possible 'burst survival' suit, I need some gear that can only be had from the highest tier of large PvE, small PvP and small PvE. Do the same respectively for all areas of play. Now do the same not with just gearsets but with abilities and talents.

If you need 30pts in one talent tree, and 20pts in another but your game only allows 40pts total to be spent, to order to get the 'best goodies' available between the trees, then you force customization. The idea here is to offer many options to the player, of which all options stake claim to an equal 'area under the curve'. They are all equal, but different.

Apply this to any example inside of an MMO. From a combat perspective, MMOs are nothing but statistical systems. This is a simplified example of how to make the concept work, but hopefully illustrates how forced diversification can be achieved.

I loathe the "Holy Trinity". I view it one of the biggest factors in the failings of modern MMORPG Grouping designs. The design promotes overspecialization, which actually detracts from co-operation, as opposed to promote it, as you would, at first, think.

Co-Operative gameplay is about working with other group members to assure the welfare of the group. When one player can only tank, only heal, or only damage you become less focused about the group-entity as a whole, and more focused on yourself. Hence, MMOs now measures the success of a DPS based merely on numbers, as opposed to how well he/she works in the group (silence, stuns, ect).

Combat basically boils down into two factors. Damage and Control. Damage is outgoing damage, incoming damage and reverse damage. Control is Positioning/Mobility and General Crowd Control. (Threat is an artificial interpretation of positioning)

I'd like to see an MMO that spreads these factors through everyone. For example. Remove a dedicated in-combat healer, have only self heals or a constant slight regeneration on everyone. Make armor define the character as opposed to refine him. Heavy armor should offer more protection, but reduce mobility. Create fights that are more about Group vs Group, as opposed to group vs a super inflated hp pool. And spread CCs (knockbacks, stuns, ect) amongst everyone instead of placing them on a dedicated character. I think this would encourage real teamwork where you have to look after the entire group, as opposed to just one or two people.

I think it can often lead to bland classes when its followed too strictly.  I do like it though, that people have different roles.  I would prefer no classes though, and instead people choose their skill trees or whatever and they sorta have roles that they make up on their own as opposed to clicking on the healer button when they make their character.

I think Guildwars does a good job with the holy trinity thing-  Players can play off of each others skill sets in really imaginative ways, and its more complex and fun than simple tank/nuke/heal setup.  It can get reaaallyy confusing too though, haha, once you get really good at the game and getting into the deep PvP stuff.  I can see why that could put some people off.  Of course, when you are first getting to know Guildwars you dont really realize how deep its holy trinity is, so I think the learning curve is very good which is probably part of the games charm- Easy to learn, almost impossible to master.

Originally posted by pojung

@ Cephus404

You're viewing things from a current gameplay perspective that is the standard with most MMOs currently on the market. Don't.

Actually, I was answering it from the perspective of the OP who seemingly worships the current gameplay perspective and the whole Holy Trinity concept. 

Someone mentioned collision detection: both EQ1 and AC1 have that (in pvp modes) so it's not a programming challenge to implement.   Having someone 'block' another pc from an npc might be tricky in an open field though...

Holy trinity:

D&D was not an example of the holy trinity.  Just because one class could heal and another could do damage mostly is not "holy trinity".  Low level mages could not tank nor could they do remotely decent damage (or heal); they were basically crap.  Later on they became buff kings, AoE damage kings, living siege weapons, movement kings, utility kings, etc..  That was just an example of short-sighted game design that was also prevalent in other games of that time (warriors were for beginners, mages were for experts, etc.).  D&D mages never did heal much but they were every bit as "tough" as warriors at high levels despite their low hps and no magic/heavy armor.

Players did not invent the holy trinity.  Many players will warp a game to try to make it holy trinity even if the game makers aren't trying to force it, but that behavior came AFTER EQ1 trained us to play that way.

There is no holy trinity in PVP and that's what I think games should move towards in PvE - games where the badguys behave more and more like non-braindead individuals rather than the nearsighted suicidal/homicidal robots they are in almost every game now.

Originally posted by Fennris

D&D was not an example of the holy trinity.  Just because one class could heal and another could do damage mostly is not "holy trinity".  Low level mages could not tank nor could they do remotely decent damage (or heal); they were basically crap.  Later on they became buff kings, AoE damage kings, living siege weapons, movement kings, utility kings, etc..  That was just an example of short-sighted game design that was also prevalent in other games of that time (warriors were for beginners, mages were for experts, etc.).  D&D mages never did heal much but they were every bit as "tough" as warriors at high levels despite their low hps and no magic/heavy armor.

Is that really true?  Sorta reminds me of Diablo I...  The sorcerror was easily the best character once you get up to the higher levels.  It really is just a balancing issue though, probably both in Diablo I and D&D.

For me, the root of the problem lies in the sacro saint arcade style end boss fight.  Such encounters are typically against 1 super inflated monster thats got tons of hit points, does respectable amounts of damage, has lots of immunities. You  got to DPS that monster down. To lower resource costs, the best way is relying on melees since they have sustained zero cost DPS. Of course, then you need some healing because DPS melees usually are poor self healers, and one buffer/debuffer is usually desired to boost the melee DPS.  Nowhere else in the game do you really need the holy trinity. So maybe the problem lies in that supposedly mandatory end boss fight?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

90 votes on the poll at the time of this post, and only 30%, less than 1/3 of respondents say the Holy Trinity is the most fun you can have in an online RPG.

I think this is where you get the solo vs group divide in MMORPGs.

If you're not really into the kind of serious close coordination the holy trinity game mechanics provide, but something closer to a mini zerg, grouping just isn't that important a feature in the game, and doesn't need that much support.

This leads to the kind of game design we see now. I don't really need you to level, you don't really need me, we can both easily solo to the level cap. We can group now and then, but we dont' really have to pay close attention to what the other is doing, and we can just jump in a group, zerg the boss for the phat lewt every now and then at the end of a quest line, kthanx bye, back to the solo quest grind.

That's a very different game experience from being encouraged to group during the entire leveling phase, and soloing now and then while looking for a group, or deciding to spend the real extra time and effort it takes to solo to the level cap.

Ok, I voted in favor of it, but, as someone already pointed out, it's a simplification of it all.  I don't like the holy trinity so much as having the classes work together exceedingly well, healer/tank/dps is alright, but I like it when there's other choices...I guess that is the Holy Trinity, but I prefer it to be a little more.  Maybe where any two classes can team up for great effect, but each extra one adds an extra little bit.  I automatically revert back to EQ, when it wasn't old as dirt.  I read a description in the guide for enchanter, and the fact that there was a super support class that sucked solo pulled me in automatically.  So...I have a valid reason for grouping, without being the healbitch?  I'm so in.