The problem is as you state so nicely above - its all subjective to the individuals interpretation of the definitions. You may believe a game is a Theme Park based off your play style in that game, and since I play it differently I may say it isn't. You also assume a game is linear based off of how you play that aforementioned game, many others may not play it that way and also do not think it is linear. And your assuming a great deal when you use the comment 'widely agreed upon by the community'. You can tell that from this single forum thread alone. The 'community' here obviously can't agree if FE is or isn't either one.

Doesn't really matter how you argue the point, its all subjective to the players own personal play style and interpretation of the game based on that information.  And you state that yourself right up there ^. The only correct answer to this question would have to start "Based off of the way I play game XXXXXXX, I feel it is a  .........". Anything less than that would be inaccurate and misleading at best.

The community of MMORPG.com is prone to argue about whether the color blue is in fact blue.  

FE is sectioned off into zones which represent level ranges.  This even flows over into its crafting mechanics, where higher level items require materials from higher level zones.  You have no choice but to follow a pre-termined path to continue advancing in the game.

FE does have a very "broad" path, but that shouldn't be confused with a true sandbox.   

Originally posted by comerb

 

Probably Elite... the same game Eve was designed off of.

Label's serve a purpose.  If someone told me FE was a "sandbox" and then I bought it thinking it was designed with certain qualities that are associated with "sandbox" games... I would be severely disappointed.    When someone says "It's a sandbox."  I get a very clear picture in my head of what the gameplay entails, and so do most other educated gamers... the same goes for if someone says "It's a themepark."

The term "sandbox" and "themepark" obviously don't have a websters dictionary definitions.  They are tools created by the players used to describe a type of gameplay.  There are certain elements that are attached to those types of gameplay that adhere to "sandbox" or "themepark" play styles, and they are widely agreed upon by the community.  Eve is a "sandbox"... WoW is a "Theme-park"... this isn't debatable.  You can play the semantics game all you want, and define your own personal definitions until your blue in the face.  It doesn't change what the majority of gamers who use the aforementioned labels consider a "sandbox" or a "themepark", which relates directly to the linear nature of a game.

 

Nope Grand Theft Auto.

You may have a very clear picture in your head but not only does it probably not agree with the very clear picture in anyone else's head it isn't even likely to be what the person who said "sandbox" meant. Therefore it's worthless.

The terms "Sandbox" and "Themepark"  weren't invented by MMO players. The first was market speak for a free play mode in a rail gunner and the second was a derogatory term applied to all graphical MMOs by mudders. Those aren't my "personal" definitions. That's where they come from. All MMOs are both Theme parks (virtual worlds) and Sandboxes (virtual worlds). The amount of content and player freedom may vary from game to game but neither is absolute in any game. You aren't the majority of gamers. The majority of gamers can't even agree on what the labels mean.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Nope Grand Theft Auto.

You may have a very clear picture in your head but not only does it probably not agree with the very clear picture in anyone else's head it isn't even likely to be what the person who said "sandbox" meant. Therefore it's worthless.

The terms "Sandbox" and "Themepark"  weren't invented by MMO players. The first was market speak for a free play mode in a rail gunner and the second was a derogatory term applied to all graphical MMOs by mudders. Those aren't my "personal" definitions. That's where they come from. All MMOs are both Theme parks (virtual worlds) and Sandboxes (virtual worlds). The amount of content and player freedom may vary from game to game but neither is absolute in any game. You aren't the majority of gamers. The majority of gamers can't evfenh agree on what the labels mean.

Grand Theft Auto was released in 1997.  Elite was released in 1984.  I'm not sure when exactly the first time the term "sandbox" was used, but  Elite was the first open-ended game that I can recall on a video platform... and was, spiritually, the first sandbox.

Actually the term "sandbox" comes from a box filled with sand.  It's a metaphor, and its definition in single player games is unique from its definition in MMOs.  Terms like these are language, and they evolve with time.  The definition that MUD players used is irrelevant to the definition as it applies to MMO gamers in the here and now.

Originally posted by comerb

The problem is as you state so nicely above - its all subjective to the individuals interpretation of the definitions. You may believe a game is a Theme Park based off your play style in that game, and since I play it differently I may say it isn't. You also assume a game is linear based off of how you play that aforementioned game, many others may not play it that way and also do not think it is linear. And your assuming a great deal when you use the comment 'widely agreed upon by the community'. You can tell that from this single forum thread alone. The 'community' here obviously can't agree if FE is or isn't either one.

Doesn't really matter how you argue the point, its all subjective to the players own personal play style and interpretation of the game based on that information.  And you state that yourself right up there ^. The only correct answer to this question would have to start "Based off of the way I play game XXXXXXX, I feel it is a  .........". Anything less than that would be inaccurate and misleading at best.

 

The community of MMORPG.com is prone to argue about whether the color blue is in fact blue.  

FE is sectioned off into zones which represent level ranges.  This even flows over into its crafting mechanics, where higher level items require materials from higher level zones.  You have no choice but to follow a pre-termined path to continue advancing in the game.

FE does have a very "broad" path, but that shouldn't be confused with a true sandbox.   

Actually, I can (and have) wandered around aimlessly through the entire S1 zone without caring which town I was in or not and progressed into S2 in the same manner. The transition from S1 to S2 was completely transparent to me, I didn't move from S1 to S2 because I had to, I just happened to end up there on my travels. Occasionally I would venture into whatever town I was near and speak with some NPCs to buy or sell what I wanted to, maybe even helped them out with whatever little task they needed help with. But at no point was I ever forced to do anything they wanted me to.  And I am sure I will progress from S2 to S3 in the same manner, when I wander there of my own free will. It may be before the level 'you' think I should move up there and it may be after it - again, I'm not forced in anyway.

Your play style is the only determining factor for your opinion here. The way I play FE makes it a pure sandbox with zero theme park influence. You don't play it the way I do, so naturally we differ in opinion on it.

Originally posted by Kaocan

Originally posted by comerb

The problem is as you state so nicely above - its all subjective to the individuals interpretation of the definitions. You may believe a game is a Theme Park based off your play style in that game, and since I play it differently I may say it isn't. You also assume a game is linear based off of how you play that aforementioned game, many others may not play it that way and also do not think it is linear. And your assuming a great deal when you use the comment 'widely agreed upon by the community'. You can tell that from this single forum thread alone. The 'community' here obviously can't agree if FE is or isn't either one.

Doesn't really matter how you argue the point, its all subjective to the players own personal play style and interpretation of the game based on that information.  And you state that yourself right up there ^. The only correct answer to this question would have to start "Based off of the way I play game XXXXXXX, I feel it is a  .........". Anything less than that would be inaccurate and misleading at best.

 

The community of MMORPG.com is prone to argue about whether the color blue is in fact blue.  

FE is sectioned off into zones which represent level ranges.  This even flows over into its crafting mechanics, where higher level items require materials from higher level zones.  You have no choice but to follow a pre-termined path to continue advancing in the game.

FE does have a very "broad" path, but that shouldn't be confused with a true sandbox.   

 

Actually, I can (and have) wandered around aimlessly through the entire S1 zone without caring which town I was in or not and progressed into S2 in the same manner. The transition from S1 to S2 was completely transparent to me, I didn't move from S1 to S2 because I had to, I just happened to end up there on my travels. Occasionally I would venture into whatever town I was near and speak with some NPCs to buy or sell what I wanted to, maybe even helped them out with whatever little task they needed help with. But at no point was I ever forced to do anything they wanted me to.  And I am sure I will progress from S2 to S3 in the same manner, when I wander there of my own free will. It may be before the level 'you' think I should move up there and it may be after it - again, I'm not forced in anyway.

Your play style is the only determining factor for your opinion here. The way I play FE makes it a pure sandbox with zero theme park influence. You don't play it the way I do, so naturally we differ in opinion on it.

You would never progress in the game w/out eventually transitioning into S2, much in the same way you'd never progress past a certain point in WoW w/out transition to the Outlands.

To reach level cap you have to go from point A, to point B, to point C... every single character does this.

Originally posted by comerb

You would never progress in the game w/out eventually transitioning into S2, much in the same way you'd never progress past a certain point in WoW w/out transition to the Outlands.

To reach level cap you have to go from point A, to point B, to point C... every single character does this.

True, but are you telling me that just because you have to eventually move from one 100 square mile sector into another 100 square mile sector, without zoning or prompting, that it is a theme park?? That would mean that every game in existence, MMO or not is a theme park.

To me I just happened to go north today, west yesterday, and maybe tomorrow I will go south just like i did 2 days ago. If I need something I go look for it, when i find it I stop looking. Doesn't sound very theme park or forced to me.

Originally posted by Kaocan

Originally posted by comerb

You would never progress in the game w/out eventually transitioning into S2, much in the same way you'd never progress past a certain point in WoW w/out transition to the Outlands.

To reach level cap you have to go from point A, to point B, to point C... every single character does this.

 

True, but are you telling me that just because you have to eventually move from one 100 square mile sector into another 100 square mile sector, without zoning or prompting, that it is a theme park?? That would mean that every game in existence, MMO or not is a theme park.

To me I just happened to go north today, west yesterday, and maybe tomorrow I will go south just like i did 2 days ago. If I need something I go look for it, when i find it I stop looking. Doesn't sound very theme park or forced to me.

Nope, I'm telling you because you have to go to a specific area(s) that adheres to your level range in order to gain experience and advance that its a Themepark.. And no, a true Sandbox doesn't have that.  Eve, Darkfall, Ryzom(so I hear), Pre-NGE SWG are examples of game's like this. 

Examples:

In FE, if your level ~23... you are going to be somewhere in zone 2 to advance.  Plain and simple.  The game steers everyone towards that zone sooner or later, and eventually to zone 3... and with expansions zone 4, 5 6 etc.    It's a purely linear progression.  If you don't eventually transition to these areas, you come to a standstill in progression.

In Eve a 100mil skillpoint pilot may very well never leave empire space.  A 2mil pilot may very well be making a living hauling ore in the very deepest corner of nulsec.  The game doesn't arm bar you into "go here, do this" in order to advance.

Originally posted by comerb

Originally posted by Kaocan

Originally posted by comerb

You would never progress in the game w/out eventually transitioning into S2, much in the same way you'd never progress past a certain point in WoW w/out transition to the Outlands.

To reach level cap you have to go from point A, to point B, to point C... every single character does this.

 

True, but are you telling me that just because you have to eventually move from one 100 square mile sector into another 100 square mile sector, without zoning or prompting, that it is a theme park?? That would mean that every game in existence, MMO or not is a theme park.

To me I just happened to go north today, west yesterday, and maybe tomorrow I will go south just like i did 2 days ago. If I need something I go look for it, when i find it I stop looking. Doesn't sound very theme park or forced to me.

 

Nope, I'm telling you because you have to go to a specific area(s) that adheres to your level range in order to gain experience and advance that its a Themepark.. And no, a true Sandbox doesn't have that.  Eve, Darkfall, Ryzom(so I hear), Pre-NGE SWG are examples of game's like this. 

Ok, I see your point - but with the fact that FE is planning to add new sectors and raise the cap to 150 eventually I dont see how you can expect there not to be diversity even if just in location. Besides, if they didn't label the sectors, would this still be true? I mean if all it was was a single world with no borders, and in that single open world were creatures of every level, and towns catering to the needs of players from every level, where all you had to do was move around in it until you found a place where you could gain skill and levels, wouldn't that be a sandbox again? Just curious, because thats what FE is right now - IF you take the sector names away. Or would they have to mix it all up so there would be level 135 critters right outside my starter level 1 town so if I walked the wrong way I could be destroyed in seconds?

Trying to understand why you feel there are specific "areas" here, its not like I need to present my 'papers' when I cross from S1 to S2. The only thing I see is my map flips to page 2 in my book. Does that also mean that in the United States that we are theme parked because when I drive from Georgia to Florida, and flip the page in my map book, that I changed "areas"? 

Ok, I see your point - but with the fact that FE is planning to add new sectors and raise the cap to 150 eventually I dont see how you can expect there not to be diversity even if just in location. Besides, if they didn't label the sectors, would this still be true? I mean if all it was was a single world with no borders, and in that single open world were creatures of every level, and towns catering to the needs of players from every level, where all you had to do was move around in it until you found a place where you could gain skill and levels, wouldn't that be a sandbox again? Just curious, because thats what FE is right now - IF you take the sector names away. Or would they have to mix it all up so there would be level 135 critters right outside my starter level 1 town so if I walked the wrong way I could be destroyed in seconds?

Trying to understand why you feel there are specific "areas" here, its not like I need to present my 'papers' when I cross from S1 to S2. The only thing I see is my map flips to page 2 in my book. Does that also mean that in the United States that we are theme parked because when I drive from Georgia to Florida, and flip the page in my map book, that I changed "areas"? 

Because there are specific areas.  X area has Y level range.

Consider Warcraft.  Now at level 10 I could randomly wander into a level 30 zone.  Does that make it a sandbox?  Hell no.  

All level 30 players are in X area(s), all level 40 player are in Y area(s).  This game leads you around by the nose constantly... the only difference between the linear nature of WoW and the linear nature of FE is that FE doesn't always have clear transition quests. 

Originally posted by comerb

 

Because there are specific areas.  X area has Y level range.

Consider Warcraft.  Now at level 10 I could randomly wander into a level 30 zone.  Does that make it a sandbox?  Hell no.  

All level 30 players are in X area(s), all level 40 player are in Y area(s).  This game leads you around by the nose constantly... the only difference between the linear nature of WoW and the linear nature of FE is that FE doesn't always have clear transition quests. 

Look, I do honestly see your point, but I think your missing mine by a mile. Yes what you say is true, but it is not in the game to create a linear game play, it’s in there to promote safety, stability, and eliminate waste (time and effort).

Let me explain for you. If there wasn't a logical progression among the mobs and nodes into places farther and farther away form the start you would have several bad side effects caused by the game design.

First is you would have a serious mix of nodes around the map with no logical progression and having some of them either not giving you skill, not being usable in your current trades, or not being able to be picked at all. Imagine your a level 45 and you see 15 nodes on your map, 2 of them might actually give you skill and are something you can use, the other 13 are for lower levels than you, but you won't know which until you spend the time to go look at them all. Kind of sucks doesn't it.

Secondly the mobs, sure if your level 45 who cares if the mobs are level 5, well you wont die to them anyway, but you wont get any usable drops from them either, no xp either. The other hand, if your level 5 and you get too close to a level 45 mob, how much fun do you think that would be? You have to remember too that this also goes for PvP, it's also one of the reasons they are still hesitant in putting in fast travel into FE right now. They don’t want to see level 45s camping S1 PvP camps and one shotting level 5 players to up their kill count. And what level 5 is going to want to keep playing a game where there are level 45 grievers’ running all over the place, they are killing them and every mob they need to progress.

What you see as a linear map is only a logical separation of the elements based on their power structure. Realistically it is that way in life as well. You don’t have weak prey surviving in numbers in the same location as highly aggressive predators. There is separation. Sure the predator could move to where the low level prey is, but that takes time and effort. And sure, if the prey wants to get better food they may just have to become stronger to survive moving where it can be found.

When you say the game leads you around by the nose constantly, I'm saying you’re letting it lead you around by the nose. The linear nature is only in the way you perceive it. There is no way you can logically say that a level 45 lion pride could co-exist right next to a field of level 2 rabbits and not eat them all over time, leaving only the level 45 lions to contend with. Its natural selection, in FE they just placed the natural selection in a path YOU can walk through in what YOU see as a straight line. Give them time, I'm sure eventually they will place Onyxia's cave in the middle of a level 30 swamp too so even you won't say its linear.

Oh and don’t get me wrong here, I'm not arguing that this game is or isn't a sandbox. What I'm arguing is that your saying JUST BECAUSE it has sectors, that it has to be Theme Park and Linear. At least that appears to be the only point behind your reasoning.
 

Originally posted by jramsay61

I've never played, but was curious what some people who have played it themselves think: do you consider FE a sandbox? or a rail ride?

properbly been said during 1 mio posts here.....but only sandbox element is character development. its not setted in stone like in WoW or EQ2 as in you choose your class and that the 1 class you ll be....can make some hybrid of a melee, pistol, rifle crafter guy....its not wise to do but you free to do so.

other than that it sure is a theme park - havent got much into factions yet so dont know much about it

Ok, someone has found a sympathetic little helper, but here is the essence of a previous post of mine, giving some hints about the "definition of blue":

Originally posted by colddog

Here are some reasons why it is not:

1. Linear progression - what else is there? Can you progress (develop) a character non-linearly? Or what the hell do you mean by this? I surely did zigzag back and forth, left and right in S1 during my first 20 levels, between paralelly leveled hubs. Exactly like I did in EVE. No difference there - and no linearity.
2. Limited skill system - again, define "unlimited", please. Are there "random", or "player generated skills in any game? I know there are none in EVE.... again, just like FE. All skills are defined by the developers. And yes, ALL skills can be learned - by the same player, no alt is needed.
3. Level based - just one terminology to define character development. Skills are the other one. There is no difference there. Development must be shown, displayed, and the numerical way is the most convenient. How else could they do it? If there is no character development, growth in a game, then it is not a game. Like Second Life.
4. Lack of player-driven content - crafting actually IS player driven content. There were no Dune buggies in the game when it launched. Did you know that? As for stories/quests made by players - it might and might not happen. We shall see.
5. Lack of player-driven economy - we had argued about this. If there is an AH, there is player economy. It does not go any more simple than that. Yes, some consider it to be flawed as long as all the materials and many of the gear can be bought from vendors. Flawed, but it's there. As i wrote in another thread, flaw is actually necessary, there must be vendor items when a game launches, otherwise nothing would be available for anybody, and inflation would completely kill whatever small player-based economy was there. Vendors are currently the financial regulation of the economy, in the future this could be changed. Or not. Oh, and let's not forget, I'm quite sure you can BUY stuff from vendors in EVE, too :D At least when the game was new, you could. Right?

Here are some possible reasons why it is:

1. Seemless, open world - funnily enough, that makes a game nice to play (no loading screens or invisible walls), but that one actually does NOT make a game sandbox. At least not in the MMO terminology, that one which was not invented by yourself :D

I'm not sure what I can add. Hopefully others have more things that might be considered sandboxy.

So, people who *think* they know what "sandbox" means, should think again. The only software (not a game) out there that is even close to being these terms, is Second Life. Anything else do not fit the hc terms that people are listing here.

True Sandbox? Microsoft office tools. Cad designer programs. Photoshop.... there you can create what you want, from scratch.

A game will and must have structure and content, else it's not a game. Simple as that.

DB

Ok guys.  Have it your way.  Every game is a themepark+sandbox+rainbow lollipop.

Bob: "So what type of MMO is it?"

Jim: "What do you mean?"

Bob: "Well I mean is the gameplay sandbox or a themepark?"

Jim: "All MMOs are sandboxes and themeparks."

Bob: "Um ok... so is it level based?

Jim: "yeah"

BoB: "does the game have a player driven economy?"

Jim: "yeah sure!  but there isn't any item loss and all the materials have their prices set by NPC vendors"

Bob:  "ok, so that's an emphatic NO.  Does the game have a set progression?"

Jim: "oh, well level 1-20 you quest in zone 1, and level 20-40 you quest in zone 2, and 40-50 you quest in zone 3"

Bob: "ok, linear progression is a check.  Can you do more than just be a combat character?"

Jim: "Yeah!  You can be a pure crafter!  Well... you kinda need a combat character to gather the materials for you.  And you'll need someone else to get the rep to get the good recipes.  And it takes a million years to level on crafting alone.  And once you make something for someone, they never need to replace it... and the supply is so high because everyone crafts that you can't really sell much of anything for a profit.  And combat characters can craft their own consumable ammo w/out any real crafting investment".

Bob: "ok, so a pure crafting character isn't too plausible by itself"

Jim: "well no I guess not."

Bob: "are there any other job types?"

Jim: "no, not really."

Bob: "ok, so its a themepark.  Why didn't you just save me half an hour of my life and say that in the first place"

Jim: "Because its not! just a themepark!!! zomg you're so stupid stfu!!111!!

Originally posted by comerb

Ok guys.  Have it your way.  Every game is not like EVE .

 

Bob: "So what type of MMO is it?"

comerb: "What do you mean?"

Bob: "Well I mean is the gameplay sandbox or a themepark?"

comerb: "It's not like EVE."

Bob: "Um ok... so is it level based?

comerb: "It's not like EVE"

BoB: "does the game have a player driven economy?"

comerb: "It's not like EVE"

Bob:  "ok, so that's an emphatic NO.  Does the game have a set progression?"

comerb: "Not like EVE"

Bob: "ok, linear progression is a check.  Can you do more than just be a combat character?"

comerb: "Yeah!  But not like EVE".

Bob: "ok, so a pure crafting character isn't too plausible by itself"

comerb: "well, not like EVE."

Bob: "are there any other job types?"

comerb: "no, not really, but neither does EVE."

Bob: "ok, so its a themepark.  Why didn't you just save me half an hour of my life and say that in the first place"

comerb: "Because its not like EVE!!!! zomg you're so stupid stfu!!111!!

*Fixed*

If you can use something other than EVE as a benchmark to what a sandbox is, then that's how I see your argument. Oh,...that's just my opinion I see it that way? It's your opinion for the way you see things too.

If you want a true sandbox, then go grab a Tonka truck and go play in the sand.

Originally posted by rodingo

Originally posted by comerb

Ok guys.  Have it your way.  Every game is not like EVE .

 

Bob: "So what type of MMO is it?"

comerb: "What do you mean?"

Bob: "Well I mean is the gameplay sandbox or a themepark?"

comerb: "It's not like EVE."

Bob: "Um ok... so is it level based?

comerb: "It's not like EVE"

BoB: "does the game have a player driven economy?"

comerb: "It's not like EVE"

Bob:  "ok, so that's an emphatic NO.  Does the game have a set progression?"

comerb: "Not like EVE"

Bob: "ok, linear progression is a check.  Can you do more than just be a combat character?"

comerb: "Yeah!  But not like EVE".

Bob: "ok, so a pure crafting character isn't too plausible by itself"

comerb: "well, not like EVE."

Bob: "are there any other job types?"

comerb: "no, not really, but neither does EVE."

Bob: "ok, so its a themepark.  Why didn't you just save me half an hour of my life and say that in the first place"

comerb: "Because its not like EVE!!!! zomg you're so stupid stfu!!111!!

 

*Fixed*

 

If you can use something other than EVE as a benchmark to what a sandbox is, then that's how I see your argument. Oh,...that's just my opinion I see it that way? It's your opinion for the way you see things too.

If you want a true sandbox, then go grab a Tonka truck and go play in the sand.

Hey Hey!!

Now your getting it.! Eve is a sandbox!  Congratulations!   Pre-NG SWG was one too.

I have played EVE for a long time. It is a hybrid too, themepark and sandbox elements as well, similarly to FE.

They are both great games. Lotro is a great game too actually, I really enjoyed it. It does not really have any sandbox elements. A game does not need sanbox elements to be good, and naturally, some people don't even like those elements. Many just enjoy the ride, be it railed as it can be (Gears of War is great, linear game, isn't it? :)

There is no game which only has sandbox element. Second life might only have that, but it's not a game. A game's criteria is to have content and structure, otherwise there is no game there. Therefore, a "pure sandbox game" is a contradiction in itself.

Go learn some stuff about the term "game" before coining your own versions of "sandbox" and the like. It's an ancient science actually, all programmers and mathematicians study game philosophies and structures at university.

DB

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

I have played EVE for a long time. It is a hybrid too, themepark and sandbox elements as well, similarly to FE.

DB

Eve, pre NG SWG, Wurm, UO, Horizons, DF, Ryzom are like Sandbox

EQ2, AOC, WAR, AC2, Aion, FE are like Themeparks

Theres no "pure" sandbox or  Themeparks, all are Hybrids obviously. 

That doesn't change the fact that there's hardly anything sandbox in Fallen Earth,  whereas there are lots of sandbox elements in Pre NG SWG for exemple.

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

I have played EVE for a long time. It is a hybrid too, themepark and sandbox elements as well, similarly to FE.

They are both great games. Lotro is a great game too actually, I really enjoyed it. It does not really have any sandbox elements. A game does not need sanbox elements to be good, and naturally, some people don't even like those elements. Many just enjoy the ride, be it railed as it can be (Gears of War is great, linear game, isn't it? :)

There is no game which only has sandbox element. Second life might only have that, but it's not a game. A game's criteria is to have content and structure, otherwise there is no game there. Therefore, a "pure sandbox game" is a contradiction in itself.

Go learn some stuff about the term "game" before coining your own versions of "sandbox" and the like. It's an ancient science actually, all programmers and mathematicians study game philosophies and structures at university.

DB

Gears of War isn't an MMO.  And thats where it seems a lot of confusion is coming from.  People are trying to tag the single player game definition of a "linear" onto an MMO game.  Or in some cases people are even going as far to attach the programmers definition of a "sandbox" to the MMO genre(which was really retarded by the way).  We're on an MMO forum, talking about MMO games.  The only definition of a "sandbox" thats relevant is how it relates to MMOs.

As an example.  If someone from Britain came to America and asked you for some "cider",... they would probably be a bit disappointed with what you brought them.  Why?    We assign slightly different meanings to things, because the dialect is different.  Yet both languages are English.  

Naturally every MMO is a sandbox by single player game standards.  That isn't very useful when your trying to categorize an MMO game though, is it?

Anyway, most of the arguments being represented basically relate like this.

Bob: "You have a white cat right?"

Jim:  "Well, technically white is the presence of all colors.  So my cat is every color on the visible spectrum."

Bob: "That's nice Jimmy, lets just call it white."

As if there's not been enough heated discussion over this already... Here's a scale of how I'd rate it :)

<--::Sandbox::-------------------------------------------------------------------------------::Themepark::-->

<-Wurm Online-----UO-----EVE-----SWG-----AC-----Fallen Earth-----Vanguard-----WOW-----LOTRO---->
 

Some will rank AC more to the themepark end than FE, some will rank Vanguard more to the sandbox end than both.... In the end, I'd rank Fallen Earth close to the middle, but not there. Still, the game does give one a certain sense of freedom sandboxes are known for and to me that's what's important.

One other thing is, few people seem to play the pure sandbox games like Wurm Online and A Tale in the Desert. It seems people want at least some quality directed content in their game, along with the sense of freedom.

One other thing is, few people seem to play the pure sandbox games like Wurm Online and A Tale in the Desert. It seems people want at least some quality directed content in their game, along with the sense of freedom.

 

That's because those particular games are low budget and poor quality.  

Originally posted by comerb

One other thing is, few people seem to play the pure sandbox games like Wurm Online and A Tale in the Desert. It seems people want at least some quality directed content in their game, along with the sense of freedom.

 

 

That's because those particular games are low budget and poor quality.  

True, I won't deny that. But I myself play a lot of "low budget and poor quality" games, and even I've never stuck for long periods with them. And it was never the graphics engine or bugs... The whole gameplay just did not "click" for me.

Truth is, as far as popular sandboxes go, we just have EVE now. I'd be pleased to see more, too.

Originally posted by vladww

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

I have played EVE for a long time. It is a hybrid too, themepark and sandbox elements as well, similarly to FE.

DB

 

Eve, pre NG SWG, Wurm, UO, Horizons, DF, Ryzom are like Sandbox

EQ2, AOC, WAR, AC2, Aion, FE are like Themeparks

Theres no "pure" sandbox or  Themeparks, all are Hybrids obviously. 

That doesn't change the fact that there's hardly anything sandbox in Fallen Earth,  whereas there are lots of sandbox elements in Pre NG SWG for exemple.

Exactly.  Things don't always fit into nice neat little boxes.  That doesn't prevent us from labeling them, or using labels as a tool to generalize the overall nature of a thing.

Fallen Earth contains very few elements that are related to what a sandbox represents, whereas all other games labeled as a sandbox do.

Well then, I think we all have it figured out now, If the game we are discussing is EVE its a sandbox, if the game we are disccussing is ANYTHING ELSE than its not. So why again are we discussing this if its so OBVIOUS to at least one of us.

And I always wanted to say this - GO BACK TO EVE! (oops I mean graphical Trade Wars).

:)

Truth is, as far as popular sandboxes go, we just have EVE now. I'd be pleased to see more, too.

Oh definitely, I really think FE dropped the ball on what could have been a potentially amazing "sandbox" type of gameplay.  The apocalypse genre lends itself perfectly, and I think it shortchanges its potential massively when implemented in the fashion that Icarus chose.

Originally posted by Kaocan

Well then, I think we all have it figured out now, If the game we are discussing is EVE its a sandbox, if the game we are disccussing is ANYTHING ELSE than its not. So why again are we discussing this if its so OBVIOUS to at least one of us.

And I always wanted to say this - GO BACK TO EVE! (oops I mean graphical Trade Wars).

:)

 

Not at all, your just trying to generalize to prove some point.  I'm not exactly sure what that point is.  There are, and have been, several games that would be accurately described as a sandbox.  Someone listed them just a few posts ago.

I don't play Fallen Earth, I gave it a shot and found it lacking.  I simply take exception to people describing it as a "sandbox" on these boards.  People come to these boards for information on games they would potentially like to buy and sub to.  Saying this game has sandbox characteristics is very misleading, because frankly it doesn't.