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WSIMike
 Elite Member
Joined: 3/09/04
Playing: Lineage 2, Dissidia FF |
Originally posted by Malifiss
And you want games to cater to your playstyle as well. So.. When stomping your feet and pouting stops working, the next best option is creating a 'me me me, i want i want i want' thread on some random forum, amiright?
There are people out there who, no hyperbole intended, seem as though they'd be happiest if they could have a server all to themself and never need to interact with another living person. I'll repeat it just in case... Not everyone who enjoys soloing is like that, but I do notice a large number of people who are.
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Originally posted by WSIMike
There is nothing wrong in approaching an MMO as a solo player, if the story is rich and immersive that can be enough. Taking WoW as an example playing the game solo for the quests would take you through about 95% or so of the game content, the raid and PvP content is quite small in comparison, most raid dungeons are about 12 bosses or so and have a bit of trash, compare that to the size of the rest of the game and all the quests...etc.
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp
What game was this? IMO, the game play was NOT boring in EQ or DAoC, and it wasn't important if people chatted a little bit or a lot in a group. Either way you had better coordinate or you were going to get a party wipe. IN WoW, I always felt like the group was pointless. You didn't really need to coordinate, it was just to easy. Anyway, you can always chat in guild channel if your big thing is chat. I'm mostly interested in good game play. Sure chatting with a cool group is a bonus, but I'm there first for the game play that a good grouping game provides. If you're bored with the combat so you need chat to keep you occupied, IMO the game needs work. And yea, you're paranoid dude. As long as you don't try to cyber 6 year olds, there's nothing wrong with talking to them. I don't mind grouping with anyone of any age, as long as they don't act like an asshat. I'm find grouping with a polite 6 year old if he or she can play the game. You seem to be replying to things not actually in MY post. For example, I made no mention of EW, DAoC, nor have I referred to combat and being bored with it or otherwise. In these days where the media is full of stories about kids being "groomed" over the Internet, I'm not about to rock the boat. Regardless, why group with strangers when I can chat with REAL friends. |
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WSIMike
Elite Member
Joined: 3/09/04
Playing: Lineage 2, Dissidia FF |
Originally posted by Illyssia
I have literally seen arguments that raid bosses should be soloable and people shouldn't be "forced" to group up to fight them - and they were serious. If someone had said that about 6 years ago, they'd have been laughed at, or assumed to be kidding. Nowadays, it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more people agreeing with it because the idea of ever having to group up to some seems to be received with the same severity as driving bamboo shoots into their nail bed. It's gotten to the point now where more and more pro-soloing folks are outraged at the concept of virtually *anything* requiring a group in a MMO. It's unfair, it's bad, it's "antiquated", and it needs to be removed. MMOs should be *100% soloable*. Period. End of discussion. For some, pointing out that grouping leads to socialization, which leads to a better community is like throwing acid in their face. Now the people who enjoy grouping are actually being shouted down and insulted for even arguing the benefits of groups by many people (again... not by everyone, but certainly by more all the time).
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Why people feel the need to further catagorize themselves is beyond me. "Hardcore", "casual", "carebear", "griefer", "grouper", and "soloer" are just some of the ones I've heard. All these sub catagories of gamers are just more labels created by those elitist gamers that need to elevate themselves above other gamers. Since many players consider themselves hardcore now, the next distinction is soloer and grouper. You can't be a true hardcore gamer unless you prefer the group playstyle. My problem with all this is I like themepark mmorpgs and I like sandbox games. I like pvp and pve. I like to explore new ingame worlds, craft, quest, solo, and group. So I get slightly offended when I read a thread that infers insult or outright insults a playstyle I enjoy. Or, in many cases, insults me the gamer directly for liking this gamestyle. It seems, lately, that every other thread is another Doomsday thread from a gamer that moans and cries that mmorpgs aren't the way they used to be or aren't developing the way they want. I enjoy many styles of game, but if I play a game that doesn't appeal to me, I quit playing. I usually don't blame the "masses", or the "greedy devs" or whatever the new label the elitist gamer has created to identify the object of their fierce, undying hatred. |
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Originally posted by WSIMike
I have literally seen arguments that raid bosses should be soloable and people shouldn't be "forced" to group up to fight them - and they were serious. If someone had said that about 6 years ago, they'd have been laughed at, or assumed to be kidding. Nowadays, it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more people agreeing with it because the idea of ever having to group up to some seems to be received with the same severity as driving bamboo shoots into their nail bed. It's gotten to the point now where more and more pro-soloing folks are outraged at the concept of virtually *anything* requiring a group in a MMO. It's unfair, it's bad, it's "antiquated", and it needs to be removed. MMOs should be *100% soloable*. Period. End of discussion. For some, pointing out that grouping leads to socialization, which leads to a better community is like throwing acid in their face. Now the people who enjoy grouping are actually being shouted down and insulted for even arguing the benefits of groups by many people (again... not by everyone, but certainly by more all the time).
The situation with the major mmos 5 years ago was that you went through a PvE game to get levels then either quit or formed very large groups for dungeon raid and PvP. Nowadays the pendulum has swung the other way. Most of the content can be done solo, and grouping is optional. I can remember in the recent past people who grouped with me while leveling asking me how to complete a quest rather than reading it themselves and putting two and two together to get their own right answer. Dungeon content when leveling tends to farce anyway, I can remember playing through several mmo while leveling in a guild where basically players ran through it with a player who had out-leveled the content. It's pointless, might as well make the leveling dungeon solo aided by NPC with the option to replace those NPCs with your friends. I think next year we will see solo and console friendly mmo come to the fore, it is a good thing for the genre. |
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WSIMike
Elite Member
Joined: 3/09/04
Playing: Lineage 2, Dissidia FF |
Originally posted by otter3370
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It just so happens the the MMO genre is now focusing on providing the option of whether you want to group or not. They have listened to their customer base. Be honest; would you rather be forced to group with people or have the option to group or not? Gaming is a multi-bilion dollar industry now. Given that; we have moved from companies making the game they want to make to making the game their customers want to play. It's all about consumer demand. MMO's have a much larger player base now. It's not just the hard core Rper's (which is what MMO's were founded on; role-playing) signing up for these games. It's all about the casual gamer now. The majority of which are not here to focus on socializing with group play. Not to mention that many of us don't have the time and commitment to invest in a lot of group playing. I must say that I am all about group play. I've been playing role-playing games since the late 70s and that's what it's all about for me. With that said, it's not the gaming companies that will kill grouping anyway. It's the player. If grouping is your thing, as it is mine, then there are ways to find like-minded players. The grouping option is always there, you just have to exercise it. The bottom line is that it's all about choice now. And, in my opinion, choice is always a welcomed friend in the world of gaming. |
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Sounds good to me. Down with forced grouping.
Viva la revolucion!!! |
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Originally posted by Emloch How do you know? In my opinion, grouping is the pinnacle of casual. Casuals want to play together, they don't want to play alone. Grouping, if done in a casual way, would most likely prove to be much more successful than soloing. Too bad grouping is still, for the most part, only for the hardcore players. |
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see and this is what makes it difficult cuz i dont want to have to watch my language or what i say for fear someone is going to get me reported or something im a grown adult and i know that other adults are playing these games thats why in lotro im trying to get a friend into the game since yea you cant find a decent group to run with and most real ppl who group do so with ppl they know if you know noone you cant do anything which is very unsettling since it is a massivly multiplayer game and its that same fear basically that keeps others from grouping
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I thought kiddies were taught punctuation from about the age of 5, at least over here. I didn't even bother to read that. |
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I'm am not totally against a group centric mmorpg. But I think a lot of people, including myself, would be slightly worried about having to put whatever potential enjoyment I can have in an mmorpg on another gamer. In other words, I am not in complete control over my enjoyment of a game if it is dependent what kind of group I can get in or put together. We've all been in bad groups and seen firsthand how it can ruin your enjoyment of whatever game your playing. Outside of guild groups/raids, I've been in very few groups that didn't end with one person abruptly leaving, getting mad because no one was following their orders, getting what they wanted then D/Cing before anyone else could, etc. When these things happen, it's always possible to fall back on solo questing/content. I don't think any gamer is against group centric content in an mmorpg. It's what you join an mmorpg for in the first place. There isn't one player that solos an entire game, no matter what they or groupers might say. Soloing may be a prefered playstyle for someone, but grouping happens. Theres no way anyone can avoid it. I think a lot of the problem I have with these threads is the consensus among groupers is that their playstyle is more complicated or difficult then soloing. Maybe in some cases where a concerted and well timed effort is needed in order to succeeed is grouping complicated, but it's not difficult. Juggling everyones personalities and priorities is the only difficult thing and that's not going to make people want to group. The only mmorpg that I've seen where grouping is necessary and has to be planned out meticulously is WoW. And groupers hate that game. It's considered the most solo friendly game around. It's the bane of their gaming lives, yet the one that gives them what they seem to want. |
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Originally posted by otter3370 WoW... a... grouping...game? You really have not much experience from grouping MMO's do you. Let's just say that no, WoW is not a grouping game, and no, it does not give us what we want. In the slightest. As for your first comment, group based environment actually takes care of that kind of players quite easily and effectively. When you don't act nice to each other, you can't progress in the game. Normally when you can solo it doesn't matter what you do or say in a group; you can just proceed alone afterwards. But if you act like a jackass in a grouping game, nobody will invite you anymore. The word spreads fast. Also, when people have grouped from the start of the game, they become better at it in the long run. They learn not to solo around and act together (most of the time). That kind of behaviour might be more common in the early levels, but the game will get rid of those players quite fast. Some players might and will get through the sieve, but it's not such a problem that it will heavily affect the experience. Only a minor nuisance at best. |
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SW:ToR has story-driven player choice, so obviously it's a solo game. Obviously! Games like Earthrise, which will involve GROUP-ORIENTED GVG (guild vs. guild) Territorial Warfare/Resource Acquisition end-game... apparently don't exist, because the upcoming MMOs are proof that grouping is dying. Or, do you just want super grouping (1000% of the time) in PvE?
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Originally posted by Hyanmen WoW... a... grouping...game? You really have not much experience from grouping MMO's do you. You two are kinda arguing different points. WoW is very much a grouping game. At max level. But from 1-80, it is most assuredly not a grouping game, since the vast majority of levelling content (i.e. quests) are designed for the single player and provide little to no challenge for a group of players. Facerolling ones way through hour-after-hour of content gets old pretty fast. Solo-friendly levelling content in modern MMO's isn't the problem. The lack of group-friendly levelling content is.  |
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Originally posted by Hyanmen WoW... a... grouping...game? You really have not much experience from grouping MMO's do you. Let's just say that no, WoW is not a grouping game, and no, it does not give us what we want. In the slightest. As for your first comment, group based environment actually takes care of that kind of players quite easily and effectively. When you don't act nice to each other, you can't progress in the game. Normally when you can solo it doesn't matter what you do or say in a group; you can just proceed alone afterwards. But if you act like a jackass in a grouping game, nobody will invite you anymore. The word spreads fast. Also, when people have grouped from the start of the game, they become better at it in the long run. They learn not to solo around and act together (most of the time). That kind of behaviour might be more common in the early levels, but the game will get rid of those players quite fast. Some players might and will get through the sieve, but it's not such a problem that it will heavily affect the experience. Only a minor nuisance at best. I believe you made a good point about group centric games weeding out gamers with bad behavior as the game progresses. I have seen that happening too, in retrospect. But as for WoW not being a group focused game, you didn't say why it wasn't. You just repeated the party line that it isn't and expressed incredulity that I thought it might be, at least a big part of it. When I played WoW, I followed a quest chain that inevitably led me to grouping with gamers on the same chain. Most quest chains led to a dungeon, boss or raid. All of which lead to grouping. There was always the option to skip the end of the quest line and starting another one, but you missed out on the big xp/gear payoff. Now, is it that gamers have the option to skip group necessary quests that is the problem for groupers? I've always found that grouping allows me to finish a quest more quickly, easily, and with better and faster xp/rewards. Should soloers be penalized for wanting to take their time and have a bit more of a challenge and try to complete it on their own? I think that's the big difference in my perspective of mmorpgs. I see the grouper as doing it the easy way with greater rewards and the solo path being harder and less rewarding. Solo gamers preferring this path to avoid some of the drama and complications that come with grouping. I see advantages and disadvantages to both playstyles, but both playstyles being a giant part of mmorpgs of past and present. |
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Originally posted by otter3370 If a game is group centric at the end, that doesn't mean that the game is group based. For those of us who think that pre-endgame actually matters (*gasp*), WoW is not even close to a grouping game. Your perspective is what happens in a group based MMO, frankly. However, in the case of WoW, the problem is that soloing is neither harder nor less rewarding. Or the difference is "will you get a massive reward for grouping, or a huge reward for soloing?" The advantages of grouping are not good enough, so players won't do it. You can still get to level cap in a reasonable timeframe even if you don't group, so why bother? It's not equal. And even if there are group based quests, and you'd do all of them, you'd still end up soloing most of your playtime.... |
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Originally posted by Hyanmen If a game is group centric at the end, that doesn't mean that the game is group based. For those of us who think that pre-endgame actually matters (*gasp*), WoW is not even close to a grouping game. Your perspective is what happens in a group based MMO, frankly. However, in the case of WoW, the problem is that soloing is neither harder nor less rewarding. Or the difference is "will you get a massive reward for grouping, or a huge reward for soloing?" The advantages of grouping are not good enough, so players won't do it. You can still get to level cap in a reasonable timeframe even if you don't group, so why bother? It's not equal. And even if there are group based quests, and you'd do all of them, you'd still end up soloing most of your playtime....
I think I'm finally understanding your point. You want an mmorpg that offers primarily group centric content while offering a bit of solo content. So you'd, by design, spend most of your time in groups. Grouping would be the norm while soloing would be available but not the focus of the game, or even a feasible way to advance ingame. The opposite of how you see mmorpgs nowadays, with solo play being the main focus with a grouping option. If that was what you were saying, you may have done the best job of explaining the groupers agenda, to me at least. It's always come across before to me as just another way for elitist gamers to put down everyone else. Maybe because they couldn't make their point without saying things like solo gamers want "to be led by the nose", "hand held throughout the game", "want to take the easy way", or are "ruining mmorpgs", etc. I concede to your point.
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Originally posted by otter3370
I think I'm finally understanding your point. You want an mmorpg that offers primarily group centric content while offering a bit of solo content. So you'd, by design, spend most of your time in groups. Grouping would be the norm while soloing would be available but not the focus of the game, or even a feasible way to advance ingame. The opposite of how you see mmorpgs nowadays, with solo play being the main focus with a grouping option. If that was what you were saying, you may have done the best job of explaining the groupers agenda, to me at least. It's always come across before to me as just another way for elitist gamers to put down everyone else. Maybe because they couldn't make their point without saying things like solo gamers want "to be led by the nose", "hand held throughout the game", "want to take the easy way", or are "ruining mmorpgs", etc. I concede to your point.
That's what EQ did, and so did DaoC. You COULD solo. There's never been a "forced" grouping game. Nazis don't show up at your house tie you down and make you group with other people. Soloers just scream "forced grouping" when they can't level as fast as groups, and in EQ and DAoC you could not level solo as fast as groups. It was WAY faster to level in a group. But you could solo if you wanted to. In WoW, solo, group, whatever, you're leveling in a couple months either way, who cares? That's not the game group players are looking for. The other point the solo folks seem never to understand is group =/= raid. I like to group. Don't like to raid. If you say WoW has plent of "group" content and you're talking about the end game, you're missing the entire point of some one that likes to group, not raid.
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Originally posted by Emloch
What I would rather have is challenging group content, like in EQ or DAoC, and not a game with a lack of challenging group content pre-raid like WoW. If you dumb the game down so it can be easily soloed to the level cap, you've basically gotten rid of most of the challenging group content like the challenging group content that existed in EQ or DAoC.
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp
What I would rather have is challenging group content, like in EQ or DAoC, and not a game with a lack of challenging group content pre-raid like WoW. If you dumb the game down so it can be easily soloed to the level cap, you've basically gotten rid of most of the challenging group content like the challenging group content that existed in EQ or DAoC.
You forgot to mention that any easy solo content will inevitably destroy the challenging group content because people always take the path of least resistance. Thus, you want all content to be technically soloable (but soloing it would be unrealistic and a waste of time) so people always group up. Which is to the extreme detriment of people who like to solo.
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp
I think I'm finally understanding your point. You want an mmorpg that offers primarily group centric content while offering a bit of solo content. So you'd, by design, spend most of your time in groups. Grouping would be the norm while soloing would be available but not the focus of the game, or even a feasible way to advance ingame. The opposite of how you see mmorpgs nowadays, with solo play being the main focus with a grouping option. If that was what you were saying, you may have done the best job of explaining the groupers agenda, to me at least. It's always come across before to me as just another way for elitist gamers to put down everyone else. Maybe because they couldn't make their point without saying things like solo gamers want "to be led by the nose", "hand held throughout the game", "want to take the easy way", or are "ruining mmorpgs", etc. I concede to your point.
That's what EQ did, and so did DaoC. You COULD solo. There's never been a "forced" grouping game. Nazis don't show up at your house tie you down and make you group with other people. Soloers just scream "forced grouping" when they can't level as fast as groups, and in EQ and DAoC you could not level solo as fast as groups. It was WAY faster to level in a group. But you could solo if you wanted to. In WoW, solo, group, whatever, you're leveling in a couple months either way, who cares? That's not the game group players are looking for. The other point the solo folks seem never to understand is group =/= raid. I like to group. Don't like to raid. If you say WoW has plent of "group" content and you're talking about the end game, you're missing the entire point of some one that likes to group, not raid.
Whats the difference between grouping and raiding? Is it that raiding usually involves instanced dungeons while grouping is usually associated with regular quests? No offense, Ihmotepp, but your threads on the subject have been some of the more confusing ones for me. Those threads quickly devolved into Groupers vs Soloers with nothing in between. As far as WoW grouping, my post had very little to do with endgame. I found quests where grouping was a natural occurence from day 1. But I understand that's not the norm. As far as EQ and DAoC, I found myself having to grind more then anything in those games. I thought we were of the conclusion that grind was bad. |
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Originally posted by ChrisChan
yeah, indeed. in addition the focus of SWTOR is the story(line)... story-focus in a mmorpg...! lol, i think the player(s) should create the story and not the game or the devs. i want be a active part of a dynamic gameworld and not just a brainless random guy in a movie! the player-community changes every few years. with every new generation of players, you get new playstyles: the industry trys always to create the perfect product for their future costumers... how knows maybe we will see soon games, without any kind of player death or games where the player gets XP instead of a death penalization, infinite cash, items, houses, you win 1000 interwebs!11 i playing since "everquest" mmorpg's. i joined often random groups and most in time i stayed at the same group for the whole evening or for the whole night. no one ever left the group after the fist wipe and no one runs away after he turned his facking quest in, the social part was much more higher! why? because the whole game was a group experience (after lvl 20 or so) - when you act like a dork you can instant delete your player character! this is what i call a real mmorpg. today there is nothing comparable. anything is designed for 12 year old brainless kids without any kind of fantasy. give me some cash and i will create a challenging mmorpg for mature players. |
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Originally posted by Comnitus You forgot to mention that any easy solo content will inevitably destroy the challenging group content because people always take the path of least resistance. Thus, you want all content to be technically soloable (but soloing it would be unrealistic and a waste of time) so people always group up. Which is to the extreme detriment of people who like to solo.
That argument cuts both ways, since all MMORPGs are a matter of degree. All allow solo and group play, some encourage grouping, some encourage soling. I could just as easily say you want a game where technically you can group but really you can easily solo to the cap and grouping is for the most part a waste of time. And we would both be right. I'm looking for a game with PvE like DaoC, and you're looking for a game with PvE like WoW, pre-raid. Those are different games. DAoC classic doesn't play like WoW pre-raid, and vice a versa.
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