From SW:TOR , Star trek online and on up they all seem like a soloers wet dream

Mass Marketing is about solo and group as an option. Get used to it. If you want a group-centric MMO, then it's not going to be boasting over one million players, at least until the MMO playbase is significantly enlarged and more hardcore RPG players come to the genre.

Where do you see all this information on SW:TOR being a non-group game, anyway? And who cares? Is STO and SW:TOR the only two games upcoming or are they the -MAINSTREAM- games upcoming? You need to realize solo-content is the mainstream mass-market gameplay feature. Quit expecting something else. 

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Mass Marketing is about solo and group as an option. Get used to it. If you want a group-centric MMO, then it's not going to be boasting over one million players, at least until the MMO playbase is significantly enlarged and more hardcore RPG players come to the genre.

Where do you see all this information on SW:TOR being a non-group game, anyway? And who cares? Is STO and SW:TOR the only two games upcoming or are they the -MAINSTREAM- games upcoming? You need to realize solo-content is the mainstream mass-market gameplay feature. Quit expecting something else. 

What a failure response. There is no need to respond to it because it is apparent your game time caters to you the most. The type that likes to one shot everything and rush to the end solo and be bored, When you can easily gear your self and get just as good exp from soloing than grouping why group?

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Mass Marketing is about solo and group as an option. Get used to it. If you want a group-centric MMO, then it's not going to be boasting over one million players, at least until the MMO playbase is significantly enlarged and more hardcore RPG players come to the genre.

Where do you see all this information on SW:TOR being a non-group game, anyway? And who cares? Is STO and SW:TOR the only two games upcoming or are they the -MAINSTREAM- games upcoming? You need to realize solo-content is the mainstream mass-market gameplay feature. Quit expecting something else. 

 

What a failure response. There is no need to respond to it because it is apparent your game time caters to you the most. The type that likes to one shot everything and rush to the end solo and be bored, When you can easily gear your self and get just as good exp from soloing than grouping why group?

I am not by any means defending this gameplay. I am saying, it is the mainstream, just like bad music is mainstream, so are bad "MMO" philosophies. Notice, I said -Mass Marketing-. 

Edit: If you're trying to poke fun at my World of Warcraft hours on Xfire, you're making a big assumption. I haven't enjoyed the game in a long, long time. Also, I played WoW for the most part, because a large majority of my friends do, who do so because there isn't really an MMO out there they like, and WoW is most familiar to them. Yeah, good argument though, really good argument.
 

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Mass Marketing is about solo and group as an option. Get used to it. If you want a group-centric MMO, then it's not going to be boasting over one million players, at least until the MMO playbase is significantly enlarged and more hardcore RPG players come to the genre.

Where do you see all this information on SW:TOR being a non-group game, anyway? And who cares? Is STO and SW:TOR the only two games upcoming or are they the -MAINSTREAM- games upcoming? You need to realize solo-content is the mainstream mass-market gameplay feature. Quit expecting something else. 

 

What a failure response. There is no need to respond to it because it is apparent your game time caters to you the most. The type that likes to one shot everything and rush to the end solo and be bored, When you can easily gear your self and get just as good exp from soloing than grouping why group?

Why Group for WoW's Endgame? I never understood this.

Not like I cant go 1v1 against Arthas and some shit!! I mean come on people. Even Illidan could go 1v1 against Arthas. Why not My toon?

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Mass Marketing is about solo and group as an option. Get used to it. If you want a group-centric MMO, then it's not going to be boasting over one million players, at least until the MMO playbase is significantly enlarged and more hardcore RPG players come to the genre.

Where do you see all this information on SW:TOR being a non-group game, anyway? And who cares? Is STO and SW:TOR the only two games upcoming or are they the -MAINSTREAM- games upcoming? You need to realize solo-content is the mainstream mass-market gameplay feature. Quit expecting something else. 

 

What a failure response. There is no need to respond to it because it is apparent your game time caters to you the most. The type that likes to one shot everything and rush to the end solo and be bored, When you can easily gear your self and get just as good exp from soloing than grouping why group?

I am not by any means defending this gameplay. I am saying, it is the mainstream, just like bad music is mainstream, so are bad "MMO" philosophies. Notice, I said -Mass Marketing-. 

 

Edit: If you're trying to poke fun at my World of Warcraft hours on Xfire, you're making a big assumption. I haven't enjoyed the game in a long, long time. Also, I played WoW for the most part, because a large majority of my friends do, who do so because there isn't really an MMO out there they like, and WoW is most familiar to them. Yeah, good argument though, really good argument.
 

No I was not making fun of your WoW hours, I play WoW too, its actually one of the last good grouping mmorpgs. 

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Mass Marketing is about solo and group as an option. Get used to it. If you want a group-centric MMO, then it's not going to be boasting over one million players, at least until the MMO playbase is significantly enlarged and more hardcore RPG players come to the genre.

Where do you see all this information on SW:TOR being a non-group game, anyway? And who cares? Is STO and SW:TOR the only two games upcoming or are they the -MAINSTREAM- games upcoming? You need to realize solo-content is the mainstream mass-market gameplay feature. Quit expecting something else. 

 

What a failure response. There is no need to respond to it because it is apparent your game time caters to you the most. The type that likes to one shot everything and rush to the end solo and be bored, When you can easily gear your self and get just as good exp from soloing than grouping why group?

And you want games to cater to your playstyle as well.  So..

When stomping your feet and pouting stops working, the next best option is creating a 'me me me, i want i want i want' thread on some random forum, amiright?

Originally posted by Malifiss

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Mass Marketing is about solo and group as an option. Get used to it. If you want a group-centric MMO, then it's not going to be boasting over one million players, at least until the MMO playbase is significantly enlarged and more hardcore RPG players come to the genre.

Where do you see all this information on SW:TOR being a non-group game, anyway? And who cares? Is STO and SW:TOR the only two games upcoming or are they the -MAINSTREAM- games upcoming? You need to realize solo-content is the mainstream mass-market gameplay feature. Quit expecting something else. 

 

What a failure response. There is no need to respond to it because it is apparent your game time caters to you the most. The type that likes to one shot everything and rush to the end solo and be bored, When you can easily gear your self and get just as good exp from soloing than grouping why group?

 

And you want games to cater to your playstyle as well.  So..

When stomping your feet and pouting stops working, the next best option is creating a 'me me me, i want i want i want' thread, amiright?

because there is no me me me coming out at all. Also SW;TOR wont be as groupable as current mmos because they dont have tanks or healers.

ok wait a minute grouping is comradery friends running togther going solo may be fun for some but thats why its a mmo and not spo and should i expect grouping you bet cuz they expect me to pay if i want to play it so why should i not expect it? and i know youll say well just dont play but thats just it that would be excluding other subs and no company will want to lose out on a player base at all period

Good.

While I like grouping in MMORPGs, I don't think it should be forced.

This is especially bad because what if you have a lot of group content in your game, but only a small amount of players that level? This has essentially happened with LOTRO. It took me 5 months to gain one level, because there's only a handful of quests to do. So I had to level up by grinding. Which in LOTRO is a slow and painful process. Very slow and painful. Very painful and slow.

I'd love to group. But whenever I'm on, there's no one in the same region, much less someone who wants to group.

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Good.

While I like grouping in MMORPGs, I don't think it should be forced.

Depends on how you define 'forced'?
Some people define it as any content they can't reach solo?
I like the DDO idea that there are many things you can solo, but at hard and elite levels you often have to group and even on normal levels there are areas in many dungeons that you can't reach unless you have certain skills (so you need help to access everything)
Spellborn also allows you to solo (mostly) but there are some areas that are practically impossible if you do. 

This is especially bad because what if you have a lot of group content in your game, but only a small amount of players that level? This has essentially happened with LOTRO. It took me 5 months to gain one level, because there's only a handful of quests to do. So I had to level up by grinding. Which in LOTRO is a slow and painful process. Very slow and painful. Very painful and slow.

I'd love to group. But whenever I'm on, there's no one in the same region, much less someone who wants to group.

 That does suggest either bad design OR a developer who has made a design choice that they want grouping to be required as part of the game. It is supposed to be an MMO after all? True though, they need to make sure no-one gets stuck there due to lack of players.

Any game that forces a player to group with other people they don't want to in order to play the game they are paying for should not be allowed. A game that has group content, and you can do great things only if your grouped, sure. Just don't make me have to help the asshats that think because they perform 'their assigned job' in a team environment that they are somehow better than those who CHOSE NOT TO. 

You have to understand, the game market has already noticed that the community has very distinctive sides to it. One side that wants the hardcore, end game, raid/group content - and the other that wants nothing to do with the elitist, self righteous, or free-ride gimmie gimmie players who want to do that group content. The problem is those same game market analysts have also noticed there are FAR MORE in the second bundle than the first. So to make money, they are building games to get the largest market share they can. And if that means more solo friendly and less forced grouping, well afterall they are in it to make money, it's their job.

Want to change it, go to college, get a degree in computer programming or graphics engineering and go help make a game that brings back what you want. You might even succeed at it, and have a very successful 'niche' game of your own.

 It almost seems as if there is some venom in the context in which you used the word niche.

There is one arguement I see over and over again, and I am a bit confused by it: That aiming for mass-market appeal is where the money is. From what I can tell, all games that have aimed at mass market appeal (after WoW) have fallen on their face. Blizzard owns that market share, and the only way to really compete would be to put more money and time into a game than Blizzard could. Not likely possible. So it would seem to me, the real money in the MMO market would be in aiming at these specific "niches" that make up WoW and the general gaming community, and put out a quality, compelling experience in that area. The Fabled WoW-Killer wouldn't be some super powerful generic mass appeal style game. If such an unlikely fate were to actually befall the giant, It would be from many smaller, more focused, yet quality niche games that would break apart WoW piece by piece.

I don't know. I have always followed the philosophy that mmorpgs should be more so based on grouping then solo content. If people are looking for mmorpgs with an individual in mind I invite you to play The Witcher or Bioware's Dragon Age: Origins, games catering specifically to the single player with an immersive world and a great story to boot.

I mean I completely understand the argument that, hey not everyone has the amount of time required to spend looking for a group and need a quick fix of jumping in playing for an hour or so then jumping out. Sadly I have experienced this myself with a great game, FFXI in which I would spend 2-3 hours a play session at times waiting to get into a group and let me tell you that is no fun especially when school started up and I did not have the luxury of sitting around for 4-5 hours on end spending half that time waiting and the other half playing.

Anyways back to the point these new strings of games are just not the same anymore. I remember back in vanilla WoW I had a great time adventuring with random folk for the first time in Wailing Caverns. It was what drew me into the MMO world, a group of adventurers teaming up to down a boss within a dungeon and bullshitting a bit along the way. That moment for me was epic and would be my fondest moment in WoW (yes over downing any 25 mans I have cleared).

With the new direction of MMOs I have discovered a distaste for them and now find myself more attracted to games such as Borderlands and Team Fortress 2 where I understand isn't an mmorpg however it provides that social aspect I loved so much about dungeon crawling in vanilla WoW, a group of people working together to attain a goal, wether it be capturing the point pushing the payload.

I mean it's ridiculous when I play LOTRO and have spent the entire time from levels 1-3X soloing because I can't find a group for anything... and not to mention WoW's great 1-80 solo game play now... I really hope cataclasym brings a resurgence to the player base.

Originally posted by Kaisen_Dexx

 It almost seems as if there is some venom in the context in which you used the word niche.

There is one arguement I see over and over again, and I am a bit confused by it: That aiming for mass-market appeal is where the money is. From what I can tell, all games that have aimed at mass market appeal (after WoW) have fallen on their face. Blizzard owns that market share, and the only way to really compete would to put more money and time into a game than Blizzard could. Not likely possible. So it would seem to me, the real money in the MMO market would be in aiming at these specific "niches" that make up WoW and the general gaming community, and put out a quality, compelling experience in that area. The Fabled WoW-Killer wouldn't be some super powerful generic mass appeal style game. If such an unlikely fate were to actually befall the giant, It would be from many smaller, more focused, yet quality niche games that would break apart WoW piece by piece.

No venom intended there, and you caught my context exactly. The 'niche' markets are the ones that need to be explored in the MMO market, not the overflow everything like WoW caters to. And if you look at the games that are out there surviving now, its the 'niche' ones that are doing the best.

My comment about making a game that caters to the hardcore, group/raid oriented market would in fact be a niche type game if published nowadays. Only the people who like that style of gaming would play it for more than a short period of time.

In the past - think way back here - there was only one 'type' of MMORPG game out there, you didn't have a ton of choices, so they catered to everyone they could get. UO, AC, DAoC, they all had a little content for each group of players to enjoy. The share of the market was maybe 200k subs per game if that when they all got rolling. It wasn't until WoW came out and perfected the 'one game for everyone' genre that the market share jumped into the millions.

Once that happened though we got choices born of the side effect. There have been hundreds of MMOs out in the time since Blizzard proved you could get rich from it, when there were maybe 20 in the previous 5 years before WoW. And as a result of this, the 'one game for everyone' genre will have to go the way of the dodo bird if any of them plan to be successful.

Some people like VW, some like Ford, some like Toyota, nobody likes them all, but everyone wants their own car. The MMO market is just starting to move in the 'niche' direction, and rightly so in my opinion - it's the one thing that will keep them alive and making money into the next decade.

No matter what the game, grouping/chatting with strangers holds no interest for me whatsoever.  I readily group with real-life friends and family and chat via VOIP, and we have a blast, so I'm not against grouping as such. 

The reasons I don't group with strangers are varied, but the main one is that killing mobs with a mostly silent group whose typical chat comprises no more that "lol", "kk" and "Hi" means I may as well be grouped with NPC hirelings for all the player interaction that goes on. I was in a random group recently that did exactly that, and i's a drab, boring, uninspiring way of playing, and I'd rather play solo if the other players I group with are as bland and uninteresting as that.

The other reason I dislike grouping is that I'm well over 50, and I get very, very uneasy at the thought of chatting, unknowingly, with young kids. I once got asked a lot of questions by an obvious newbie who seemed, from the interchange of his questions and my answers, very young.  Then, he let slip he was 6 years old!!  That was me OUTTA there, pronto, but I always have a worry at the back of my mind that I might be talking to a vulnerable kid.  Paranoid, I know, and more than likely irrational, but better safe than sorry.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

No matter what the game, grouping/chatting with strangers holds no interest for me whatsoever.  I readily group with real-life friends and family and chat via VOIP, and we have a blast, so I'm not against grouping as such. 

The reasons I don't group with strangers are varied, but the main one is that killing mobs with a mostly silent group whose typical chat comprises no more that "lol", "kk" and "Hi" means I may as well be grouped with NPC hirelings for all the player interaction that goes on. I was in a random group recently that did exactly that, and i's a drab, boring, uninspiring way of playing, and I'd rather play solo if the other players I group with are as bland and uninteresting as that.

The other reason I dislike grouping is that I'm well over 50, and I get very, very uneasy at the thought of chatting, unknowingly, with young kids. I once got asked a lot of questions by an obvious newbie who seemed, from the interchange of his questions and my answers, very young.  Then, he let slip he was 6 years old!!  That was me OUTTA there, pronto, but I always have a worry at the back of my mind that I might be talking to a vulnerable kid.  Paranoid, I know, and more than likely irrational, but better safe than sorry.

You could always do like they do in WoW now, ask for proof of DPS level, proof of Achievement, gear inspect, resume in triplicate, and birth certificate when teaming.

Sorry for the joke there (even if some of the joke is 100% true) and yeah I am the same way as you on teaming. Thats what unlimited long distance,conference calling, and speaker phones are good for. 95% of the time I'm grouped it is with RL friends and we are always talking on the phone when we are teamed.

I do have most of the same experiences grouping as you with the one exception of the age issue. I would like to think parents have a sliver of control over their own children these days (I know its probably a lost hope) and expect them to make sure their kids aren't doing anything they shouldn't be with people they shouldn't be. Of course being over 40 myself I conduct myself in game in a respectful and polite manner most of the time, so even if they are kids I'm not normally going to contribute to their delinquency.

My last guild in WoW was a family guild though, it had my RL friend in it, her sister and her husband, her mother and father, and her nieces (6 and 16) all playing in it. So you do get used to it if you know they are around.

The unfortunate fact is that MMO’s are the new solo play RPG’s. Actual solo play RPG’s are a dying format, so few are now released. While RPG MMO’s are played for a month or two as if they were solo games and then the players move on like locusts for their next feed.

Why the "/&¤/ are you forgetting FFXIV. That is the proof that grouping is NOT dying. 

Originally posted by Scot

The unfortunate fact is that MMO’s are the new solo play RPG’s. Actual solo play RPG’s are a dying format, so few are now released. While RPG MMO’s are played for a month or two as if they were solo games and then the players move on like locusts for their next feed.

Not ALL players move on at the end of the first two months. Only those that didn't find their 'niche' game. Those that did usually stay there for a very long time. The fact is that there are so many new and exciting possibilities just around the corner that you as a player can just move on to try the next one if you didn't like the current one.

Think of it as a test drive (expensive one sometimes), The players try it out, stay if they like, or move on - and the gaming companies know this already too. Thats why the hype and advertising up front is so important. Hook the player for $50 up front, maybe $15-$30 more for 1 to 2 more months and then who cares, everyone who stays after that is icing on the cake. And thats when the game companies start fixing everything and building it into the 'niche' game (take AoC for example).

Think of a game like Aion for example, they already had their payback for making it from money they made in the Asian market, yet they hyped it up, advertised, and released it in the 'west'. First month they pull in 330k pre-orders at $55 a shot. That's a nice $18.15 million retail in one month, chop out the expenses and middle men fees, and I bet they still pocketed at least $5-$7 mil for that month alone. That's nothing but profit on a game they have already had released for a year, and now that the free month is over, everything else is pie. Now they build their 'niche' to hold the people that are staying behind.

Originally posted by Kaocan

You could always do like they do in WoW now, ask for proof of DPS level, proof of Achievement, gear inspect, resume in triplicate, and birth certificate when teaming.

Yes, that's almost what it's like, isn't it.  :D   I call it the "Accountant's Method" of playing MMO, where all that matters is number-crunching.  Christ, players who obsess about gear and DPS make me laugh.

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Mass Marketing is about solo and group as an option. Get used to it. If you want a group-centric MMO, then it's not going to be boasting over one million players, at least until the MMO playbase is significantly enlarged and more hardcore RPG players come to the genre.

Where do you see all this information on SW:TOR being a non-group game, anyway? And who cares? Is STO and SW:TOR the only two games upcoming or are they the -MAINSTREAM- games upcoming? You need to realize solo-content is the mainstream mass-market gameplay feature. Quit expecting something else. 

I do not think it is just mass marketing, I think the majority of players want to play an immersive story-driven mmo that can be played solo or as a group if desired. Games that require large groups or guilds to complete the content are not the future of this gaming genre. I, for one, think this a good thing, as I want to play and enjoy a game on my own terms and not be forced to spam chat channels desperately hoping to find players to do a needed group quest in a game. 

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Mass Marketing is about solo and group as an option.

Great way to describe it. I think that puts it in perspective.

You can always group if you want to in a solo mmorpg. You can always solo in a group mmorpg.

It's not about either being forced or not included, it's about which one is the "option".

In DAoC, it was a group game with an option to solo.

Games like WoW are solo games pre-raid, with an option to group.

I like the group games with an option to solo.

I don't think it's very important that the majority likes solo games with an option to group. The majority of people do not like Sushi, the actual raw fish sushi, but that doesn't stop the existence of very successful sushi restaurants.

We live in a world where many things that are not enjoyed by the majority are still very profitable and many companies make them. Catering to a niche market with a great product has always been a successful business model.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

No matter what the game, grouping/chatting with strangers holds no interest for me whatsoever.  I readily group with real-life friends and family and chat via VOIP, and we have a blast, so I'm not against grouping as such. 

The reasons I don't group with strangers are varied, but the main one is that killing mobs with a mostly silent group whose typical chat comprises no more that "lol", "kk" and "Hi" means I may as well be grouped with NPC hirelings for all the player interaction that goes on. I was in a random group recently that did exactly that, and i's a drab, boring, uninspiring way of playing, and I'd rather play solo if the other players I group with are as bland and uninteresting as that.

The other reason I dislike grouping is that I'm well over 50, and I get very, very uneasy at the thought of chatting, unknowingly, with young kids. I once got asked a lot of questions by an obvious newbie who seemed, from the interchange of his questions and my answers, very young.  Then, he let slip he was 6 years old!!  That was me OUTTA there, pronto, but I always have a worry at the back of my mind that I might be talking to a vulnerable kid.  Paranoid, I know, and more than likely irrational, but better safe than sorry.

What game was this?

IMO, the game play was NOT boring in EQ or DAoC, and it wasn't important if people chatted a little bit or a lot in a group. Either way you had better coordinate or you were going to get a party wipe.

IN WoW, I always felt like the group was pointless. You didn't really need to coordinate, it was just to easy.

Anyway, you can always chat in guild channel if your big thing is chat. I'm mostly interested in good game play. Sure chatting with a cool group is a bonus, but I'm there first for the game play that a good grouping game provides.

If you're bored with the combat so you need chat to keep you occupied, IMO the game needs work.

And yea, you're paranoid dude. As long as you don't try to cyber 6 year olds, there's nothing wrong with talking to them. I don't mind grouping with anyone of any age, as long as they don't act like an asshat. I'm find grouping with a polite 6 year old if he or she can play the game.

Originally posted by Kaocan

Any game that forces a player to group with other people they don't want to in order to play the game they are paying for should not be allowed. A game that has group content, and you can do great things only if your grouped, sure. Just don't make me have to help the asshats that think because they perform 'their assigned job' in a team environment that they are somehow better than those who CHOSE NOT TO. 

You have to understand, the game market has already noticed that the community has very distinctive sides to it. One side that wants the hardcore, end game, raid/group content - and the other that wants nothing to do with the elitist, self righteous, or free-ride gimmie gimmie players who want to do that group content. The problem is those same game market analysts have also noticed there are FAR MORE in the second bundle than the first. So to make money, they are building games to get the largest market share they can. And if that means more solo friendly and less forced grouping, well afterall they are in it to make money, it's their job.

Want to change it, go to college, get a degree in computer programming or graphics engineering and go help make a game that brings back what you want. You might even succeed at it, and have a very successful 'niche' game of your own.

 

Whoa. People who like a good challenging game are elitist, self righteous and want a free ride?

What's wrong with this picture? Someone doesn't wany anyone disturbing his solo fest game and thinks everyone needs to learn to play solo.

Dude, it's ok for different people to like different games. You can still play your solo games if other people play a more challenging game.