i am a long time mmo player, and i have gone through spurts of both F2P and P2P mmorpg.

and in the earlier years of MMO's i found that the free MMO's still had alot to offer for being free. now a days all these F2P games are getting so desperate for money that they start charging for in game items. now i have no problem with a game making a profit, but they're going about it all wrong!

The first question you ask is, well how else are they suppose to afford servers then? im no expert on the economy or how the mmo market works, but wouldnt it be more efficient to charge people for a smaller monthly fee than 15$, such as 5$ a month. to me it seems that these F2P mmo companies would make more money, and still keep the players of the game happy by earning there rank and not just buying it.

on that same note, who the hell wants to buy there way to the top? i dont know about you, but the problem of not being able to afford server space doesnt justify ruining a perfectly good game. A good example i can give is runescape, (yes i know alot of you hate this game) but they make alot of money off the 5$ a month setup. and upgraded members still have to earn there way to the top.  BUT WAIT!, then they wouldn't be considered a F2P game anymore would they? well why not give a good amount of content to free players to the point where they want to upgrade to unlock the rest. (like runescape)

a good example of a really good game that has become corrupt and desperate to keep alive is gunbound, alot like the flash based game tanks. When i started playing this game literally everything was free and i had loads of fun, even LG was sponsoring them at the time. I quit for a while and come back to it about 2 years later to find out that nearly ALL of the items that you need to be the best have to be bought with real cash. and on top of that you have to pay an upgrade fee to even play in alot of the servers, or unlock all the features.

I recently met up with an old friend i use to play MMO's with, and found him playing the F2P game perfect world. after talking to him for a bit i found out he had so far spent about 1000$ on perfect world for all the items that he needed to compete with the rest of the players... pathetic if you ask me. 

in the end it seems to me that if you really want to play F2P games to its full potential, your going to have to end up paying more than you would for a game such as WoW or Warhammer online.

First you stated that it would be "more efficient" to charge a small monthly fee, $5 you claim.

Then you claimed that your friend has spent $1000 on the game.

So, if we reconcile these statements, it would be "more efficient" (by which I think you mean, more profitable, though I'm not sure) to charge $5 if your friend has been playing that game for SEVENTEEN YEARS. ($1000 / $5 / 12 months)

F2P companies are very profitable, they're good at what they do. The players seem to like them. 

Where's the bad?

If you want to enjoy f2p games without spending money.  The first lesson is don't compete with other players.

One major floor is that alot of games are missing tradeskills and you can't live off being just a craftsman and it being viable. Sure it would be boring but I love games where the options are available to do so. UO, AE etc.

I wouldn't even touch any f2p games if I was anyone. Doing so makes you gain new found apreciation even for the crappest p2p title.

I think the idea of the cash shop games is not to give players a break but to actually increase their sales more than the regular $15 per month that a lot of western games charage.

Personally they all have a junky feeling to me. Having said that there are also some good ideas and some good art design. But in the end they just seem to me to be excuses to set up a cash shop to a game that really isn't very well thought out and make things "just" hard enough so that the cash shop takes the edge off.

Yadda, yadda, yadda, people are spending $1000.00.

I have no problem with games including cash shops if that is what they want to do and what players want. However, they don't cost less than the monthly fee games when you really look at it.

Originally posted by andorov

First you stated that it would be "more efficient" to charge a small monthly fee, $5 you claim.

Then you claimed that your friend has spent $1000 on the game.

So, if we reconcile these statements, it would be "more efficient" (by which I think you mean, more profitable, though I'm not sure) to charge $5 if your friend has been playing that game for SEVENTEEN YEARS. ($1000 / $5 / 12 months)

F2P companies are very profitable, they're good at what they do. The players seem to like them. 

 

Where's the bad

this topic wasnt suppose to be about how well a F2P company makes money. but how to keep players playing

remember this is just my personal opinion, just trying to say that i liked the way things were before.

 Few years ago it was really possible to compete in most f2p games without spending any money. Now u can hardly find one, unless it's called spellborn. Somewhen f2p games have really been f2p, now it's just called that way, actually it's like f2p only for trial, if u wanna compete u'll have to pay.

Originally posted by slave2snow

this topic wasnt suppose to be about how well a F2P company makes money. but how to keep players playing

remember this is just my personal opinion, just trying to say that i liked the way things were before.

But alot of people are playing f2p games.  And they arn't spending any money.  They are still having fun.

Stop thinking you need to compete with other players and the problem is solved.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by slave2snow

this topic wasnt suppose to be about how well a F2P company makes money. but how to keep players playing

remember this is just my personal opinion, just trying to say that i liked the way things were before.

 

But alot of people are playing f2p games.  And they arn't spending any money.  They are still having fun.

Stop thinking you need to compete with other players and the problem is solved.

the thing is alot of people DO like to compete, regardless of if they are paying or not.  and your right, some people dont mind.  But id say a majority of people do, and would rather earn there equipment rather than buy it with real cash.

another one of my main points is that, there is alternative ways to make just as much money, and still make everyone happy... unless you really love buying your "pro" status, that totally takes away from the point of an mmo in my opinion, or any video game for that matter.

think of it like this, when you play WoW, you dont want to play with people who bought there accounts on farming sites... it totally sucks the life out of the game.

Originally posted by slave2snow

another one of my main points is that, there is alternative ways to make just as much money, and still make everyone happy... unless you really love buying your "pro" status, that totally takes away from the point of an mmo in my opinion, or any video game for that matter.

How do you know the alternative ways will make just as much money.

Game company make games to make money not to make everyone happy.

I live in Asia, Taiwan.  The top 30 mmorpg look like this:  4 p2p games which include wow, lineage1, lineage2, aion, and 26 f2p games.  Apparently those 26 game company think their make more money not using your alternative ways.

Originally posted by laokoko

If you want to enjoy f2p games without spending money.  The first lesson is don't compete with other players.

Am I the only one that sees the irony in that? ^^^^

Originally posted by slave2snow

on that same note, who the hell wants to buy there way to the top?

See this is the problem with you anti-rmters, you just can't accept reality.  RMT is a 2 billion + per year business.  OBVIOUSLY, plenty of people would like to buy their way to the top.  I'm not gonna explain why, since people will just whine about it anyway, suffice it to say that many people are willing to spend money on mmos.  There is no argument to this, it is simple fact.

IMO, to make a F2P mmo really successful, take the diablo loot formula and throw it in a mmo.  But even more importantly, have the players sell to other players through a dev-developed and supported ebay-esque system.  The dev simply takes a small slice off the top and whalaa, serious bank.  When the dev sells any item in the game to players, there can no longer be any economy because you have hyper-inflation of items.  When you use the diablo style, you have wide varying stats so that great items with poor stats never get sold, and the best stat items fetch great prices.  This greatly reduces item inflation and gives EVERYONE a reason to play. 

In addition, when you use the diablo formula, it becomes nearly impossible for the vast majority of people to buy their way to the top.  Everything is just too darn expensive.  Unless you're seriously rich, you simply won't be able to do it.  And for the rich who do that, well who other than serious egomaniacs really care?  It's really a form of welfare.

I'll tell you this much, get used to it.  RMT is not going away, not by a long shot.

Only players who don't understand F2P free to play game  complain about.Here are my tips enjoy a free to play mmo

1.A Free to Play MMO are not completely free.The base game is free but additional features or content you will have to pay for.

2.Don't be a cheap bastard.You spend 14.99 a month to get quality out WoW.To get full enjoyment out of free to play game you have to spend some money

3.Set a Budget and stick to it.It is easy to get caught up and spend tons of money on a F2P.F2P don't set a fixed price on you so you have to do for yourself. 5 dollars a month,7 dollars a month,14.99 a month,20 dollars a month.Pick what you are willing to spend and stick with it.

4.Spend the Box price of a normal mmo on the game.If while playing the F2P you find that you like game then dump 45- 60 dollars into game.That where differance between P2P to F2P show up.P2P is fixed and front loaded,F2P is random and more back loaded meaning You get a chance to get a feel for a F2P game before spending one cent in game,A pay to play game you have to pay the box price and montly fee before you know even if you like the game.Once you find that you like the game prepare one time to Maxizmize the cash shop if the your budget amount is not enought to compete with the crazy spenders.

I don't understand why some people are so against free to play game.If you are more casual player like myself who plays more than one game.It is silly to pay 14.99 a month when i only play maybe two hours some weeks and or a month or two i don't even play the game.You have to understand how to play F2P play games.One Year of  a p2p 14.99 a month game is 179.88,A F2P game You could go month  and spend 50 dollars,the other month 20 dollars,and couple of months you ruff it out and spend no money but once don't cross that 179.88 you are basically a winner.Reguardless if the P2P game is screwed up,unbalanced classes or if you have time to play the game that mmo is getting 179.88.A Free to play game in most case you get the your money worth of what you put in.

[quote][i]Originally posted by girlgeek[/i]
[quote][i]Originally posted by laokoko[/i]

If you want to enjoy f2p games without spending money. The first lesson is don't compete with other players.
[/quote]

Am I the only one that sees the irony in that? ^^^^

[/quote]

Perhaps you are the only one to believe that some MMO companies are running a charity...
And to the OP: F2P is not equal korean crappy grinder just because a majority is that.

{ Mod Edit }

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Originally posted by Papadam

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Originally posted by girlgeek

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Originally posted by laokoko

If you want to enjoy f2p games without spending money.  The first lesson is don't compete with other players.

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Am I the only one that sees the irony in that? ^^^^

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Deleted

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What I find ironic is calling the subscription style "free to play." It's not REALLY "free" to play, unless you don't want to play the ENTIRE game (usually) or varied other stipulations. So I really think it's just meant to be misleading.  And, incidentally, works into a pretty good sales tactic, because....people start playing "for free" and then generally end up spending money at some point.

So why not call these games "variable pay scale games," or something more TRUTHFUL in it's entirety? Game developers, of COURSE, have a right (and need) to make money. My question is...do they therefore have a right to also manipulate or lie to get it? I think not. Is there something wrong with a truthful approach? I think these games should be called VPS games, as I said, "variable pay scale" or "variable pay system" games.  That would be honest.  Heaven forbid any corporation choose an honest path though.....

By the way, I resent you calling me "stupid," and you can consider yourself reported. Are you not mature enough to have a discussion without behaving like a 5 year old throwing rocks?  I don't think that's all that much to ask of adults...really.  Do you?

F2P is really an extended free trial, if you want to compete, and that’s what MMO’s are about, you have to pay. So you end up wasting months and leaving or starting to pay through the nose. The payments are deceptive, you know how much you have paid in a subscription game after three months, it’s the sub times three. But in these microtransaction games you lose track of what you have paid, and that’s what the MMO company wants.

The problem with F2P games isn't that they have cash shops. Plenty of people use them or enjoy the game without them. Personally, I'm the type of person taht would pay 5 bucks for a cosmetic change of my character if the game is good enough. If the cosmetic change is time limited, I wont bother, but thousands of others will.

I think most of the people that complain about spending cash are children and people who are "casual" gamers who aren't really gamers at all. I'm not saying if dont use cash shops you're not a gamer,  I'm saying if you sit there and worry about other players you're just a whiner. if they bought something, they lost out on their money. If you spent 5 days getting what they bought in 5 seconds, you lost out on your time. Time and money is the name of the game, or mmo in this case.

For those that are young right now, you'll probably start to play p2p games because you'll have the money for it. Why waste it on food when you can try an mmo you've always wanted to try but never could. Then you'll see how much p2p games are great. You may even drift back to old p2p games. And see that you can pay 10 bucks for some cash shop credits, you'll think, pfft 10 dollars (even though you're probably broke like me) and you may consider it as paying a 10 dollar monthly fee. 

But there is a problem with f2p games, they have horrible communities for the most part. Unless you a lucky enough to join a guild with good people or play with friends, its going to be a boring lonely experience. I'm not sure what caused it, but about 6 or 7 years ago, they mostly had decent commuities. You could find parties and make friends for life, play the game for years on and off. But now it feels like a single player experience. I think its a combination of WoW starting this casual gaming non-sense which isnt their fault. They didn't set out to ruin the mmo world. WoW brought in millions of non-gamers through television ads and they spread out to the other games. You'd think with more people, it'd help, but i think it just made a demand for more childish dumbed down games. 

The biggest reason, I think, is that they are literally recycling games. Take conquer online for example. Theres a ton of "new" and old games that look exactly like it. Monsters and Me, jade dynasty, warlords, eudemons, ect. I'm 95% sure these games share at least most of the same resources. theres even more games that look exactly like Lineage two. Its one thing to take a degent system and make multiple games for it, but when they look and act exactly the same it gets crazy. They slap games together add a cash shop and there you go. Its like as soon as devs realised cash shops are super profitable, they go and make as many as possible. Its also sort of the the korean government's fault. They spent 800 billion (may have been 80 billion, but i'm sure its 800 billion) on mmo development companies because the f2p ones make so much money and it will boost their economy. Although some companies seem to be making the next gen mmos (blade and soul, c9 etc).

I could be wrong about what I said, because its just my opinion as a long time mmo player, but I know for sure cash shops aren't a major problem as they make a ton of money. A group of five people saying they'd never pay for CS items isn't going to change that fact.

Originally posted by girlgeek

 

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Originally posted by Papadam

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Originally posted by girlgeek

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Originally posted by laokoko

 

If you want to enjoy f2p games without spending money.  The first lesson is don't compete with other players.

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Am I the only one that sees the irony in that? ^^^^

 

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Deleted

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For your information, Mr. Oh So Intellectual.... I don't regularly play f2p games and I have 3 subscription-based MMOs that I am presently playing, and PAY FOR, so it is not I that expects "charity," as you so eloquently put it.  However, calling something "FREE" to play and then charging money for it, makes it NOT free, but rather a "variable payment system."  You get X for free, you get XY for X amount, and you get XYZ for XX amount. 

 

What I find ironic is calling the subscription style "free to play." It's not REALLY "free" to play, unless you don't want to play the ENTIRE game (usually) or varied other stipulations. So I really think it's just meant to be misleading.  And, incidentally, works into a pretty good sales tactic, because....people start playing "for free" and then generally end up spending money at some point.

So why not call these games "variable pay scale games," or something more TRUTHFUL in it's entirety? Game developers, of COURSE, have a right (and need) to make money. My question is...do they therefore have a right to also manipulate or lie to get it? I think not. Is there something wrong with a truthful approach? I think these games should be called VPS games, as I said, "variable pay scale" or "variable pay system" games.  That would be honest.  Heaven forbid any corporation choose an honest path though.....

By the way, I resent you calling me "stupid," and you can consider yourself reported. Are you not mature enough to have a discussion without behaving like a 5 year old throwing rocks?  I don't think that's all that much to ask of adults...really.  Do you?

Sorry about my rude post :( but overreacting much?
 

If the client does not cost anything and you dont have to pay a monthly sub to have access to the game then its indeed free... Doesnt matter if there are things to spend money on since you dont have to. Most F2P games seems to be designed so that either spend alot of time OR money. If I gett a cell phone for FREE I wont complain that I have to pay for  sending text messeges and calling people.

If Blizzard made vanilla WoW completly free but you had to pay for the expansions, wouldnt WoW be free to play?

The flaws of a F2P is that they are trash games that use their F2P status as an excuse for crap content, almost no updates, and pathetic gameplay.

Originally posted by slave2snow

Originally posted by andorov

First you stated that it would be "more efficient" to charge a small monthly fee, $5 you claim.

Then you claimed that your friend has spent $1000 on the game.

So, if we reconcile these statements, it would be "more efficient" (by which I think you mean, more profitable, though I'm not sure) to charge $5 if your friend has been playing that game for SEVENTEEN YEARS. ($1000 / $5 / 12 months)

F2P companies are very profitable, they're good at what they do. The players seem to like them. 

 

Where's the bad

 

 

this topic wasnt suppose to be about how well a F2P company makes money. but how to keep players playing

remember this is just my personal opinion, just trying to say that i liked the way things were before.

That's the whole point. There's no need to keep someone playing once you have their $1,000.00 dollars. That's like 5 years of an average 14.95 a month P2P MMORPG.

People don't play MMORPGs for 5 years these days, so you suck as much money out as you can as fast as you can in a F2P game, then replace them with other players willing to buy crap in the cash shop.

Done.

A P2P game needs to keep your business, so you keep paying month after month. A F2P game just needs you to get hooked long enough to drop a grand in the cash shop, and then they are done with you.

Originally posted by luckturtz

I don't understand why some people are so against free to play game.

 

Simple. Some people like a fair and level playing field, that is ALL gamers are the same, none have any advantage over any others.

In a P2P game, we are ALL the same, because unless we cheat we ALL do exactly the same things for the same rewards.

You want to make level 5? You need 5K XP. The ONLY way to do that without cheating, is kill 1000 mobs, and do 20 quests. That's it, end of story, no other way to do it. If you are level 5 I know for a fact you killed around 1000 mobs, and did around 20 quests, just like me. We are equal.

In a F2P game, things are not equal. MAybe you had an xp boost potion, maybe you bought a +1 to mana ring so you have less downtime, maybe you bought a pet that lets you make xp faster, etc. etc. We are not equl.

If you don't care about an equal game, it doesn't matter. If you do, you play P2P games.

Originally posted by Papadam

Originally posted by girlgeek

 

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Originally posted by Papadam

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Originally posted by girlgeek

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Originally posted by laokoko

 

If you want to enjoy f2p games without spending money.  The first lesson is don't compete with other players.

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Am I the only one that sees the irony in that? ^^^^

 

 

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Deleted

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For your information, Mr. Oh So Intellectual.... I don't regularly play f2p games and I have 3 subscription-based MMOs that I am presently playing, and PAY FOR, so it is not I that expects "charity," as you so eloquently put it.  However, calling something "FREE" to play and then charging money for it, makes it NOT free, but rather a "variable payment system."  You get X for free, you get XY for X amount, and you get XYZ for XX amount. 

 

What I find ironic is calling the subscription style "free to play." It's not REALLY "free" to play, unless you don't want to play the ENTIRE game (usually) or varied other stipulations. So I really think it's just meant to be misleading.  And, incidentally, works into a pretty good sales tactic, because....people start playing "for free" and then generally end up spending money at some point.

So why not call these games "variable pay scale games," or something more TRUTHFUL in it's entirety? Game developers, of COURSE, have a right (and need) to make money. My question is...do they therefore have a right to also manipulate or lie to get it? I think not. Is there something wrong with a truthful approach? I think these games should be called VPS games, as I said, "variable pay scale" or "variable pay system" games.  That would be honest.  Heaven forbid any corporation choose an honest path though.....

*clipped overreacting segment* <---we don't need to see it again

Sorry about my rude post :( but overreacting much?
 

Yes, probably so...I also apologize. I just get weary of the way we all seem to argue on here. I'm not beyond having had a few warnings myself, trust me. It's probably why I even NOTICE name calling now, to be honest. So the board mods are effectively teaching...ME, for one.

If the client does not cost anything and you dont have to pay a monthly sub to have access to the game then its indeed free... Doesnt matter if there are things to spend money on since you dont have to. Most F2P games seems to be designed so that either spend alot of time OR money. If I gett a cell phone for FREE I wont complain that I have to pay for  sending text messeges and calling people.

I understand the cell phone analogy better.  A cell phone is similar to a game client, so I can see what you're saying there.  Good analogy.

If Blizzard made vanilla WoW completly free but you had to pay for the expansions, wouldnt WoW be free to play?

Well....VANILLA WoW would be free to play.  So I'd say that's partially truthful.  But see....that's kind of my "gripe." WoW is more than vanilla WoW.  It's a much larger story and game than that.  I do see the point that you're making (very well) and I understand your perspective. I just think it would be more honest....for them to call these types of games "variable pay scale" or "variable pay system" games.  SOME people actually have started calling them RMT games. I guess that would work too, EXCEPT....as YOU are saying...they don't, as a necessity, cost money. They're just a more full product if you spend some money.

I'm not partial to f2p games mostly because I'd rather pay a montly fee and then not have to think about it again, also I like that what I do pay is capped. Ironically, if you're not paying attention or are weak minded you could end up paying more than you normally would have.

However it does bug me a bit that they call these games free-to-play, as if money had nothing to do with the game but realistically they design the games in such a way as to make as much money off of you as they can. (DDO)

Imo DDO is good game for:

Free player; It is as free as all the other f2p games + you gain points by playing.

F2P player that uses the mall; You can buy points to unlock the content

Normal MMO player; You can pay 14,95/Month to unlock whole game.

I'll give a very nice exemple of how F2P works (based on my personal experience with Mabinogi)

I've been playing Mabinogi for a year now. Mabinogi is entirely free and you don't exactly need money to be competitive in the game (skill-based) BUT when playing the game, you slowly realise that it would be nice if you could get from Point A to Point B a little faster, or perhaps Level up a bit more quickly. You are not forced to, but some may choose to buy from cash shop to accelerate their growth in the game.

So yeah, this year, I bought 30k NX ($30), bought 2 pets, 2 character card (to rebirth) and that's all I needed. Those 2 pets help me reach Point A to Point B faster than walking, and those 2 rebirths card helped me raise a skill I would've waited 4 more weeks before I could get. But I wasn't forced to get that skill or I could've waited. Oh, and I can use those 2 pets to carry 1 more player (non-cash shop users may also use other players pets).

Mabinogi's Item Shop sells 80% of it's content in-game. The items you can buy in-game (mostly revive feathers, dye ampoule, etc) can be bought with NX and then traded to other players using the in-game currency (gold). In other words, even players who have not bought NX may get their hands on item mall stocks. The only items that cannot be bought with in-game currency are sold on the websites and includes Pets and Character Card and a "Fantasy Life Club" (allows you to open a shop, create a guild, increase your inventory space, gives you free daily revive, etc)

I didn't buy my character to the top, I simply gave it a little push. Mabinogi is more of a skill-based game. Meaning that to be competitive, it's not what you wear but how you play that matters.

So yeah, instead of paying $178 a year (monthly fees), I paid $30 and I don't plan to buy more NX. That's how some F2P MMORPG titles work.  But as far as F2P FPS goes, I have to admit some cash shops are broken. Then again, if you plan to pay Cash shop in a F2P FPS, might as well buy Call Of Duty, Team Fortress or anyother FPS which offers a way better quality game with dedicated servers.