Originally posted by arenasb

Originally posted by tro44_1

 

But if you're doing a large scale grouped fight, and everybody could tank (Since there is no tanking Class system)

Then in a 20man PvE raid,  (Example)

if the Dragon Boss's main focus dies, that would leave any other person in the group(19 left) to take up the spot as the Bosses' main focus.

AKA: Everybody would be able to tank. (20 person tanking group)

That would seem very stale for a Large Scale grouped PvE raid.

 

I have found the opposite. The holy trinity concept has gone very stale for me. I found it quite boring. Part of the problem for me is that you have artificial abilities to get the mobs attention, ie taunt. Why not gravitate towards tactics that are more real life like (yes I know there isn't magic and crapin RL). The game should have collision detection (bodyblocking, whatever you want to call it). In that respect you could tatically move to block big bad monster from getting to squishier targets. Obviously you have to balance all of the abilities of all players involved (pc and npc) but that shouldn't be an issue. I'd much rather see large scale fights that involve better tactics rather than relying on a tank, dps, heal concept. It's time to move on from that.

like somebody else said,
 

it just seem like you want Exploiting. And thats not fun (Imo).  Kiting and Body wall blocking is a exploit in a Large Scale group PvP fight.

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by arenasb

Originally posted by tro44_1

 

But if you're doing a large scale grouped fight, and everybody could tank (Since there is no tanking Class system)

Then in a 20man PvE raid,  (Example)

if the Dragon Boss's main focus dies, that would leave any other person in the group(19 left) to take up the spot as the Bosses' main focus.

AKA: Everybody would be able to tank. (20 person tanking group)

That would seem very stale for a Large Scale grouped PvE raid.

 

I have found the opposite. The holy trinity concept has gone very stale for me. I found it quite boring. Part of the problem for me is that you have artificial abilities to get the mobs attention, ie taunt. Why not gravitate towards tactics that are more real life like (yes I know there isn't magic and crapin RL). The game should have collision detection (bodyblocking, whatever you want to call it). In that respect you could tatically move to block big bad monster from getting to squishier targets. Obviously you have to balance all of the abilities of all players involved (pc and npc) but that shouldn't be an issue. I'd much rather see large scale fights that involve better tactics rather than relying on a tank, dps, heal concept. It's time to move on from that.

like somebody else said,
 

it just seem like you want Exploiting. And thats not fun (Imo).  Kiting and Body wall blocking is a exploit in a Large Scale group PvP fight.

Huh?

Maelkor: "There will always be a tank."

No, there won't.  Tanking is purely a function of whether or not the game has player-controlled mechanisms (like taunt and threat) for controlling who the mob attacks.  There is nothing forcing a MMORPG to use that style of gameplay.

Even in WOW there are fights where mobs aggro whatever the hell they want -- sort of like a PVP fight -- and during these fights there are no tanks.  An entire MMORPG could be designed around fights like that (and in fact, Guild Wars isn't far from it.)

tro44_1: "it just seem like you want Exploiting. And thats not fun (Imo). Kiting and Body wall blocking is a exploit in a Large Scale group PvP fight."

Not sure I'd agree with that.  When Body Blocking is an intentional part of PVP gameplay and there are counters to it, it's completely fine.

WAR's implementation of it was alright.  It was fun and different than the PVP I've experienced in a lot of other games.  It had its problems (terrible rubberbanding, and lack of clear counters in the dubiously-level-designed castles,) but it was pretty cool overall.  Not something you saw in every game, and gave utility to tanks.

I've never heard of kiting to be an exploit.  The only way it would be an exploit is in a game with poorly balanced melee vs. ranged class design.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Maelkor: "There will always be a tank."

No, there won't.  Tanking is purely a function of whether or not the game has player-controlled mechanisms (like taunt and threat) for controlling who the mob attacks.  There is nothing forcing a MMORPG to use that style of gameplay.

Even in WOW there are fights where mobs aggro whatever the hell they want -- sort of like a PVP fight -- and during these fights there are no tanks.  An entire MMORPG could be designed around fights like that (and in fact, Guild Wars isn't far from it.)

tro44_1: "it just seem like you want Exploiting. And thats not fun (Imo). Kiting and Body wall blocking is a exploit in a Large Scale group PvP fight."

Not sure I'd agree with that.  When Body Blocking is an intentional part of PVP gameplay and there are counters to it, it's completely fine.

WAR's implementation of it was alright.  It was fun and different than the PVP I've experienced in a lot of other games.  It had its problems (terrible rubberbanding, and lack of clear counters in the dubiously-level-designed castles,) but it was pretty cool overall.  Not something you saw in every game, and gave utility to tanks.

I've never heard of kiting to be an exploit.  The only way it would be an exploit is in a game with poorly balanced melee vs. ranged class design.

You are talking about PvP, iam talking about PvE grouped fighting. Kiting a Boss around would be lame. thats a exploit. And as for your GW comment. That game doesnt even have Large Scale PvE. So that example is flawed. Plus the Boss fights are lame, and exploitable. Kiteing is not fun in Grouped PvE. That system might be tons of fun if Anet keep that as a Solo style Gameplay option in GW2 (I call is Mission Mode/ Or/ Mission Quest) Ofc

but that doesnt make it a replacment for Large Scale Grouped PvE

Well if you're talking about large scale PVE, say PVE.  :P

Originally posted by Axehilt

Well if you're talking about large scale PVE, say PVE.  :P

My bad, ment PvE. But Body blocking could work in PvP for Tanking classes (which is also a excuse for no tanks, that many people use) Since Tanks in PvP can have a role (As you can see with Warhammer [Dwarf Tank {forgot name}])

Originally posted by Axehilt

Maelkor: "There will always be a tank."

No, there won't.  Tanking is purely a function of whether or not the game has player-controlled mechanisms (like taunt and threat) for controlling who the mob attacks.  There is nothing forcing a MMORPG to use that style of gameplay.

Read the rest of my post. Tanking is not a function of taunt. All pve mobs have to scale players threat levels. That is the basis of all pve AI. Its also the basis of all pvp. Combat itself forces MMOrpgs into that style of play. The only exception to that is FPS style of combat in which players can be killed in one or two hits or somewhere around that.

Think about the most popular games, the games with the most subs, how many are there? Answering that question should bring people to the conclusion that the holy trinity is the most  sought after gameplay. After all, there are many games that do not have the tanking/trinity must have system and they do not hold a candle to the subscriber base of the tanking/trinity games. It may not be your particular style and you do have viable options available to you but to the majority , well, sub numbers speak for themselves.

Tanking/trinity mmo's are king, period.

Originally posted by Qraye

Think about the most popular games, the games with the most subs, how many are there? Answering that question should bring people to the conclusion that the holy trinity is the most  sought after gameplay. After all, there are many games that do not have the tanking/trinity must have system and they do not hold a candle to the subscriber base of the tanking/trinity games. It may not be your particular style and you do have viable options available to you but to the majority , well, sub numbers speak for themselves.

Tanking/trinity mmo's are king, period.

 

This has nothing to do with Sub, so stop bring that up every time to Flame something Great in WoW.

WoW has Great Large Scale Grouped PvE. It uses a Tanking system. (Does that mean I am saying No Tanking System 100% suck?) No!!

But in games like Guild Wars, were you dont have tanking system, the developers always limit the game to Small scale Fights.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Two words...play FFXI.

Tanking is never simple in the ACTUAL game,i find it funny once again someone talking about WOW and has to mention end game.The answer should be obvious large scale is a joke,the only way large scale even works period is if the game gives you ridiculous spells to cast hate on large areas.

I have no idea why the fascination for large scale from so many people,i cannot stand large scale weapons let alone large scale battles.

I look at it this way,i need some sort of realism in my games,even though i know they are Fantasy ,it doesn't matter.Would ANYONE realistically run out in the middle of 20 mobs and start fighting?heck even 5 or more is ridiculous about 2 or 3 should be max.To think a game allows you to survive after tanking anymore than 2-3 mobs is cheap 101.

If you tried to tank 3 or more xp mobs in FFXI you were dead and so was your party,no large scale needed,because the game offers a challenge in small numbers.If your tank can handle more than a couple mobs at once,then the the defense of the tanks is blown out of proportion made far too easy mode and you are given too simplistic hate tools.In FFXI you really have to manage your hate control and everyone else around you has to manage their actions as well.That is the difference between a good challenging combat system and a watered down cheap one.Heck most games are so diluted ,people walk around soloing things as any class,everything is easy mode.

Responding by point:

1) The fascination with *large scale* is inherent in *Massively Multiplayer* online role playing games.  In many offline RPGs you can get the standard small party experience.  In the online world, you get to play with thousands of other players, and people often wish to do just that.

2) I think that one way or antoher everyone needs to be able to relate to the fantasy world they experience, but they also have to buy into the fantasy aspects.  Ie. The concept that certain characters are heroes who are capable of performing fantastic feats of strength in and out of combat.  This doesn't have to be superheroesque.  Think of any famous pieces of fantasy literature.  Lord of the Rings: Aragorn, Gimili and Legolas were all capable of facing dozens of orcs by themselves.  Wheel of Time: any Aes Sedai (can be considered a caster MMO class) could take on dozens or even hundreds of enemies by themselves.  Their physical fighting warders could survive 10 to 1 odds.  Heck, think of William Wallace in Braveheart.  They're special.  In an MMORPG, we get to assume those special roles. 

Never being able to fight multiple mobs in a small group loses a lot of its heroic feel in my opinion.  I haven't played FFXI in ages, but even when you did get to fight numerous mobs in Dynamis or Sky, it didn't feel like anything different.  Tab target and auto attack some more.  Very few aoe mechanics, and an overall powerless feel.  

3) large or small scale, I would hardly call FFXI challenging when everyone's time is spent doing nothing more than auto attacking and waiting for their TP to reach 100%.  Tanking = provoke, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, heal for aggro if you're a paladin, refresh utsusemi if you're anything else (if you want a challenge, go paladin/ninja tank). 

In other games, you actually have dozens of abilities at your disposal *gasp*, all of which will always have their uses.  You must constantly use one ability and have the next one ready to go.  You must manage both defensive and offensive cooldowns to optimize threat generation and survivability.  You're constantly doing something, which at least feels engaging.  And taking multiple mobs only increases the challenge. 

4) Just because you can solo 1 mob in a game doesn't make it easy, and just because you cannot in another game doesn't make it hard.  It can be a tactical challenge to solo something or a repetitive boring (and easy) group task to kill something.  I don't even think challenge or difficulty is the key here, because I have never played an MMO that where leveling up (which is what seems to be in discussion here) is *difficult.*  It may be quick or it may take ages, but it's invariably easy to accomplish.  Rather, I think it's all about the level of engagement the player can experience.  The 2 classes I leveled to 75 in FFXI (ranger and paladin) were essentially the exact same thing from level 20-75.  Ranger = ranged attack x8, skill chain, ranged attack x8, skill chain.  Then once every 5 minutes you can use sharpshot and barrage.  Once every 5 MINUTES there is another button to press!  And because it's pointless to do otherwise, they're macroed onto the same button!  I literally didn't even have to look at my computer screen to play that game.  There was almost zero read and anticipate the enemy, then react with the appropriate ability gameplay.  

I was taken by the story/history and the zilart/COP missions of FFXI and was certainly addicted to it at the time, but after playing other games, I can objectively see how awful the combat in that game was.  I really hope they don't make a lot of the same *mistakes* in FFXIV. 

/endtirade

Originally posted by Homitu

Responding by point:

Never being able to fight multiple mobs in a small group loses a lot of its heroic feel in my opinion.  I haven't played FFXI in ages, but even when you did get to fight numerous mobs in Dynamis or Sky, it didn't feel like anything different.  Tab target and auto attack some more.  Very few aoe mechanics, and an overall powerless feel.  

3) large or small scale, I would hardly call FFXI challenging when everyone's time is spent doing nothing more than auto attacking and waiting for their TP to reach 100%.  Tanking = provoke, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, heal for aggro if you're a paladin, refresh utsusemi if you're anything else (if you want a challenge, go paladin/ninja tank). 

In other games, you actually have dozens of abilities at your disposal *gasp*, all of which will always have their uses.  You must constantly use one ability and have the next one ready to go.  You must manage both defensive and offensive cooldowns to optimize threat generation and survivability.  You're constantly doing something, which at least feels engaging.  And taking multiple mobs only increases the challenge. 

4) Just because you can solo 1 mob in a game doesn't make it easy, and just because you cannot in another game doesn't make it hard.  It can be a tactical challenge to solo something or a repetitive boring (and easy) group task to kill something.  I don't even think challenge or difficulty is the key here, because I have never played an MMO that where leveling up (which is what seems to be in discussion here) is *difficult.*  It may be quick or it may take ages, but it's invariably easy to accomplish.  Rather, I think it's all about the level of engagement the player can experience.  The 2 classes I leveled to 75 in FFXI (ranger and paladin) were essentially the exact same thing from level 20-75.  Ranger = ranged attack x8, skill chain, ranged attack x8, skill chain.  Then once every 5 minutes you can use sharpshot and barrage.  Once every 5 MINUTES there is another button to press!  And because it's pointless to do otherwise, they're macroed onto the same button!  I literally didn't even have to look at my computer screen to play that game.  There was almost zero read and anticipate the enemy, then react with the appropriate ability gameplay.  

I was taken by the story/history and the zilart/COP missions of FFXI and was certainly addicted to it at the time, but after playing other games, I can objectively see how awful the combat in that game was.  I really hope they don't make a lot of the same *mistakes* in FFXIV. 

/endtirade

FFXI's battle system isn't about spamming lots of abilities in the first place- in fact, it's not about abilities at all. The challenge comes from using the little you have to down enemies that are by default many times stronger than you or your group. If you use your abilities too fast or spam all your mp in a minute, you'll surely fail the encounter. On the other hand, if you take too long in defeating the monster, you'll run out of time. And if you happen to run out of mana or abilities, you can improvise to turn the battle to your favor again; if mages can rest for mp for a minute or two while the tank or DD's keep the monster busy, that might be enough to win. It's not easy; you'll have to survive without healing for quite a long period of time- but it's doable if you're skilled.

In tank's example, he must decide when to use his limited hate tools to maximize the aggro he has. If he uses all the tools at the start of the fight, after 30 seconds he already has lost hate for the DD's. To win the fight, the paladin must balance his use of hate tools. In a normal exp party environment this isn't important because the monsters die fast enough, but if the fight is any longer it becomes a must.

In my FFXI, rangers were pullers as well. That you sucked as ranger can't be helped, but to say that there isn't anything to do just because you were lazy is simply wrong. And when you pulled the mob you had to look out that it didn't link with anything, as well as decide which mob to kill at which time to maximize the experience chain (take on the easier VT mob now, or later to get higher chain? Do the mages have enough mp to survive?). There's lots of things to take care of, even though they might not necessarily be part of the actual fight.

Originally posted by Maelkor

Originally posted by Axehilt

Maelkor: "There will always be a tank."

No, there won't.  Tanking is purely a function of whether or not the game has player-controlled mechanisms (like taunt and threat) for controlling who the mob attacks.  There is nothing forcing a MMORPG to use that style of gameplay.

 Read the rest of my post. Tanking is not a function of taunt. All pve mobs have to scale players threat levels. That is the basis of all pve AI. Its also the basis of all pvp. Combat itself forces MMOrpgs into that style of play. The only exception to that is FPS style of combat in which players can be killed in one or two hits or somewhere around that.

I did read your post.

It's true that threat is the basis of PVE AI -- after all, the AI has to have some method to decide who to attack.  However it's not necessary for this to be directly controllable by the player.

Imagine a futuristic MMORPG.  You can drive tanks, wear power armor, and fly planes.  The AI enemy has a stronghold.  A big one.  Guarded by 50 AI guards who respawn (until you destroy the base generator.)  They have tanks, planes, and power armor too.  But there's no taunt in this game.  The battle to take that fortress plays out like a real battle would, as a grueling chaotic skirmish.

Oh there's interesting game mechanics in there too, with certain enemies weak to certain types of damage, and certain enemies able to be interrupted as they charge up special attacks, and the special attacks themselves being shot in distinct patterns so that they can be avoided (the dodgeable rockets, the triple-shot, and the slowly-rotating lasers, etc.)  But there's no tank up there taunting the enemies while the rest of your team shoots the one boss mob down.

So there you have large-scale PVE with no true tanking mechanism.  Players will probably call it tanking when they storm the hallways behind their power armored friends, but it's not really tanking (because the AI will shoot at the medics in the back about as often as the average TF2 player shoots at the medics: he'll try most times, but a lot of times he'll be concerned by the big menace clomping towards him.)

Originally posted by Hyanmen

In my FFXI, rangers were pullers as well. That you sucked as ranger can't be helped, but to say that there isn't anything to do just because you were lazy is simply wrong. And when you pulled the mob you had to look out that it didn't link with anything, as well as decide which mob to kill at which time to maximize the experience chain (take on the easier VT mob now, or later to get higher chain? Do the mages have enough mp to survive?). There's lots of things to take care of, even though they might not necessarily be part of the actual fight.

I actually couldn't stand when anyone else pulled other than myself because a) as exciting as standing around and waiting is, i'd rather not, and b) as impossible as it seems, 98% of players proved time and again that they didn't know how to pull properly to max exp.  I think it says something that deciding which mob to pull next and when to pull it has to be included in the conversation of exciting, fun things to do in the combat scenario. 

Please don't resort to the "lol ur just bad" retort when someone comes forth and points out some of the reasons he (and others) do not like a particular game.  I actually did bother to give reasons, and didn't just nonsensically bash the game. 

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Maelkor

Originally posted by Axehilt

Maelkor: "There will always be a tank."

No, there won't.  Tanking is purely a function of whether or not the game has player-controlled mechanisms (like taunt and threat) for controlling who the mob attacks.  There is nothing forcing a MMORPG to use that style of gameplay.

 Read the rest of my post. Tanking is not a function of taunt. All pve mobs have to scale players threat levels. That is the basis of all pve AI. Its also the basis of all pvp. Combat itself forces MMOrpgs into that style of play. The only exception to that is FPS style of combat in which players can be killed in one or two hits or somewhere around that.

 

I did read your post.

It's true that threat is the basis of PVE AI -- after all, the AI has to have some method to decide who to attack.  However it's not necessary for this to be directly controllable by the player.

Imagine a futuristic MMORPG.  You can drive tanks, wear power armor, and fly planes.  The AI enemy has a stronghold.  A big one.  Guarded by 50 AI guards who respawn (until you destroy the base generator.)  They have tanks, planes, and power armor too.  But there's no taunt in this game.  The battle to take that fortress plays out like a real battle would, as a grueling chaotic skirmish.

Oh there's interesting game mechanics in there too, with certain enemies weak to certain types of damage, and certain enemies able to be interrupted as they charge up special attacks, and the special attacks themselves being shot in distinct patterns so that they can be avoided (the dodgeable rockets, the triple-shot, and the slowly-rotating lasers, etc.)  But there's no tank up there taunting the enemies while the rest of your team shoots the one boss mob down.

So there you have large-scale PVE with no true tanking mechanism.  Players will probably call it tanking when they storm the hallways behind their power armored friends, but it's not really tanking (because the AI will shoot at the medics in the back about as often as the average TF2 player shoots at the medics: he'll try most times, but a lot of times he'll be concerned by the big menace clomping towards him.)

You also seem to be pointing out something that WoW also does with its Large Scale Grouped PvE.

And thats making its scripted PvE Boss Fights, immune to Taunts, which adds even more gameplay skill to the game. Tanking system is still needed in thoses cases, but Dps and Healer need to focus on healing without causeing too much hate. (AKA More PvE skill)

In PVE if nobody is a tank, then everyone is a tank.  Someone has to take damage.

Ken

Originally posted by Homitu

 

I actually couldn't stand when anyone else pulled other than myself because a) as exciting as standing around and waiting is, i'd rather not, and b) as impossible as it seems, 98% of players proved time and again that they didn't know how to pull properly to max exp.  I think it says something that deciding which mob to pull next and when to pull it has to be included in the conversation of exciting, fun things to do in the combat scenario. 

Please don't resort to the "lol ur just bad" retort when someone comes forth and points out some of the reasons he (and others) do not like a particular game.  I actually did bother to give reasons, and didn't just nonsensically bash the game. 

If the game's not challenging, how is it possible that 98% of players didn't know how to even pull properly? And yes, because pulling in XI just happens to be more in depth than in other MMO's it should be included. If you pull at the wrong time or the wrong mob, your party dies. It's not some irrelevant thing.

Which brings me to another point. FFXI's challenge is not simply about doing your job properly, it's about working together as well. If the puller pulls too fast, mages run out of mp. If the DD's deal too much damage, they'll take hate and die. If the healer can't work together with tank, and for example cures the paladin to full hp without letting the paladin cure himself to gain hate, aggro is lost once again and the healer dies. Balancing these things is one hell of a challenge, even though it goes far beyond just spamming abilities over and over again. 

I could only assume that you were bad at playing ranger, since you didn't even include pulling as a part of your job. Now it seems that you're only underestimating the combat system instead, which is understandable; you'd have to look a bit deeper than just the number of abilities in your disposal to realize how exciting the battle system can be, which most people don't bother to do. "The more abilitiies you have, the more exciting the combat is!".. Yeah, right.

And if everybody is a tank, then that would bore down Large Scale grouped PvE boss fights.

If Dragon boss is attacking Paladin (in 20man raid)

And paladin goes down after 10 seconds, then all it takes is just 1(of the remaining 19) to step up to becomae the bosses new focus, and so on so on till ether Boss is dead, or the fight is left with a 1v1 (in which case the group would lose in a 1v1 fight vs PvE raid boss)

No Tanking - really imo its just lame. Plus it takes like 2 guys out of the game basically because they just stand there pressing their skills. People are talking alot about viable options how about:1.) In the case of Big Boss fights, instead how about change it to a strategy/puzzle game where  you have to lure a dragon out of his cave and crush him with a huge ass boulder or bridge of khazad dum style ,  you hide behind natural defenses whilst he uses his KILL Skill and then cast or shoot at him to lure him out they do that in other types of games. 2.) Millions of Minions; instead of the guy tanking a trillion guys why not cause most likely if its a trillion guys they are all 1hit kills oh i dunno use AOE skills or maybe have it so the ai doesnt run up and beat you all at once like Assassins creed or martial arts movies where your surrounded but they attack you one at a time. developers could implement a multi targeting system or stance like in the whitcher, it could work.  thats all my ideas devolopers have to start looking out of the RPG world for inspiration and realise where not all 12years old and retarded.

Originally posted by Sneaky_Andy

No Tanking - really imo its just lame. Plus it takes like 2 guys out of the game basically because they just stand there pressing their skills. People are talking alot about viable options how about:1.) In the case of Big Boss fights, instead how about change it to a strategy/puzzle game where  you have to lure a dragon out of his cave and crush him with a huge ass boulder or bridge of khazad dum style ,  you hide behind natural defenses whilst he uses his KILL Skill and then cast or shoot at him to lure him out they do that in other types of games. 2.) Millions of Minions; instead of the guy tanking a trillion guys why not cause most likely if its a trillion guys they are all 1hit kills oh i dunno use AOE skills or maybe have it so the ai doesnt run up and beat you all at once like Assassins creed or martial arts movies where your surrounded but they attack you one at a time. developers could implement a multi targeting system or stance like in the whitcher, it could work.  thats all my ideas devolopers have to start looking out of the RPG world for inspiration and realise where not all 12years old and retarded.

 

Imo that seems lame. Kiting a Boss to destroy it with items in the zone. What fun is that. And how easy it would be to kite a boss in Large Scaled Grouped PvE. Also this system would give ranged classes more advantages over melee classes.

And fighting many 1hit kill mobs, is lame for a large scale PvE fight (alone).

As others have said tanks are pretty much here to stay since "someone" has to be to focus of the MoBs attention.

People are arguing about mass tanking too .. well that depends on the game. EQ tanking more than 2 MoBs was pretty much suicide at most points, additional MoBs were CC'd and lined up one at a time. Other games such as DAoC or WAR and AoE tanking is pretty much a staple in the PvE arenas. Its not uncommon in games like that to pull 20+ trash MoBs and AOE them down. Thats just a more *heroic* feeling game I guess where your character is supposed to be more "extraordinary".

Thats just a game degin and has no real baring on the issue or tank Vs no-tank. The bottom line there is that games that give tanks single target skills and DPS mostly single target abilitys promote CC and single target killing. Games that give tanks AoE skills and DPS AoE attacks will prompte AOE target killing. /shrug.

The more intersting point for me is how MMO's will deal with "tanking" in the future.

The "plate-wearing super-healthed ape" to the front game model is getting kinda dull.I would like to see games address tanking in different ways now. I remember OG mages in AC being able (through massive buffing / Debuffing) to tank just about anything. (Exception being the nasty Lugians who threw thier magic rocks :p )

I'd like to see more tanking options in games. You can tank through Mitigation, Avoidance and Absorbing.

Currently tanks are basically given all 3 (to a degree) with other classes getting some here and there.

A skill based game where you could chose your method of defence would be alot more appealing to me. Do I want to tank as a warrior with mitigation? (Wearing heavy armor and a shield) Or as a Barbarian with absorbing? (Massive hit points) Maby as a Kensi or Rogue with avoidance? (Dodging) Maby I'd like to tank as a spell weaver with mitigation? (Debuffing my enemy to mitigate his dmg) or as a spell weaver with avoidance? (Spells like blur / invisibility)

Theres alot of different ways to work a viable tanking formular into a game past the tried and tested "big guy with armor" route.

I dont see tanking as going away since as others have said AI needs a reason for target selection .. if there is no reason for target selection then there is just chaos and everyone needs to be able to do everything. WoW fails in this reguard with threat meters etc which candy coat the game. Threat management is a large part of any group encounter for me and WoW unfortunatly dumbed this down more than any game I've ever played.

In short I'd just like to see game devs. be a little fresher with the way we tank, since for now I dont see the "tank" method going anywhere.

I don't know how possible it would be but I would also prefer a D&D based tanking experience. Let me preface this by saying my D&D experience is limited to PC games, (BG, BG2, IWD, etc.).

Sure, there are tank classes, but there are no easy ways to keep aggro on them. I always had to run my mages around/root/stun, etc as it was hard to focus the boss on the tank.

I think the main problem goes to "bigger is better". Everyone has tons of HP, MP, and skills that you can just spam away without any reservation. In D&D, your spell selection really had to count since each spell was powerful, but limited in use. HP was also a problem as even a good fighter could go down in a few critical hits from a boss. When everyone dies in less than five hits, it really puts a premium on getting the boss killed ASAP, instead of making it a long, drawn out fight.

Also, I would like to see more multiple mob boss fights. Usually, each boss you fight brings along some henchman (unless you’re at the final boss it seems). This would cause even more chaos and require a lot of maneuvering to stay alive.

The final thing would be to actually have bosses be GM controlled and not AI. That would make them so much harder as the strategy you used last time wouldn't be guaranteed to work this time.

I realize most of these would probably never happen, but I think they would lead to short but very challenging boss battles.

TLTR version:
• Short battles
• GM controlled bosses
• Limited spells/HP putting a premium on strategy and killing ASAP.
• More henchmen with bosses.
• Bigger is not always better.

Originally posted by KMiller1984

I don't know how possible it would be but I would also prefer a D&D based tanking experience. Let me preface this by saying my D&D experience is limited to PC games, (BG, BG2, IWD, etc.).

Sure, there are tank classes, but there are no easy ways to keep aggro on them. I always had to run my mages around/root/stun, etc as it was hard to focus the boss on the tank.

I think the main problem goes to "bigger is better". Everyone has tons of HP, MP, and skills that you can just spam away without any reservation. In D&D, your spell selection really had to count since each spell was powerful, but limited in use. HP was also a problem as even a good fighter could go down in a few critical hits from a boss. When everyone dies in less than five hits, it really puts a premium on getting the boss killed ASAP, instead of making it a long, drawn out fight.

Also, I would like to see more multiple mob boss fights. Usually, each boss you fight brings along some henchman (unless you’re at the final boss it seems). This would cause even more chaos and require a lot of maneuvering to stay alive.

The final thing would be to actually have bosses be GM controlled and not AI. That would make them so much harder as the strategy you used last time wouldn't be guaranteed to work this time.

I realize most of these would probably never happen, but I think they would lead to short but very challenging boss battles.

TLTR version:
• Short battles
• GM controlled bosses
• Limited spells/HP putting a premium on strategy and killing ASAP.
• More henchmen with bosses.
• Bigger is not always better.

Having GM control bosses would be a big problem. (Money)

Imagine 2000 players fighting in groups of 20 (100 groups) , in there own instance. That would be 100 GMs needed just for that alone.

Originally posted by tro44_1

You also seem to be pointing out something that WoW also does with its Large Scale Grouped PvE.

And thats making its scripted PvE Boss Fights, immune to Taunts, which adds even more gameplay skill to the game. Tanking system is still needed in thoses cases, but Dps and Healer need to focus on healing without causeing too much hate. (AKA More PvE skill)

No, I'm talking about the complete removal (from the player's perspective) of Threat and Taunt.  The mobs will act in predictable patterns, but those patterns can't be directly influenced by players (or if they can, it's not in the typical "do big damage to get its attention" fashion.)

Left 4 Dead is an example.  Players get almost zero control over which player the zombies are going to go after, yet you have big theatrical battles with zombies, and even some boss zombies that create interesting fights.

RealmLords: "In PVE if nobody is a tank, then everyone is a tank. Someone has to take damage."

The word "tank" only really applies when it's used to differentiate one player from another.

In my L4D example, you don't call anyone a "tank"; it's a useless term because you're not differentiating between players - everyone is taking damage.  So players just don't use the term.

Now you could designate one player in L4D to be your pointman -- your tank -- by having them consistently up front.  And they would take more damage than the other players, no doubt.  And in a MMORPG designed the same way, you probably will have one player whose damage mitigation capabilities are better than the others.  So sure...there'd be a vague concept of "tanking" still, but the concept would be significantly different from what we see in existing games.

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

I did read your post.

It's true that threat is the basis of PVE AI -- after all, the AI has to have some method to decide who to attack.  However it's not necessary for this to be directly controllable by the player.

Imagine a futuristic MMORPG.  You can drive tanks, wear power armor, and fly planes.  The AI enemy has a stronghold.  A big one.  Guarded by 50 AI guards who respawn (until you destroy the base generator.)  They have tanks, planes, and power armor too.  But there's no taunt in this game.  The battle to take that fortress plays out like a real battle would, as a grueling chaotic skirmish.

Oh there's interesting game mechanics in there too, with certain enemies weak to certain types of damage, and certain enemies able to be interrupted as they charge up special attacks, and the special attacks themselves being shot in distinct patterns so that they can be avoided (the dodgeable rockets, the triple-shot, and the slowly-rotating lasers, etc.)  But there's no tank up there taunting the enemies while the rest of your team shoots the one boss mob down.

So there you have large-scale PVE with no true tanking mechanism.  Players will probably call it tanking when they storm the hallways behind their power armored friends, but it's not really tanking (because the AI will shoot at the medics in the back about as often as the average TF2 player shoots at the medics: he'll try most times, but a lot of times he'll be concerned by the big menace clomping towards him.)

  What if your scenario the medic is the tank? If the mob ignores everyone but the medic because healing generates the most aggro then the mechanics of the game would dictate that the healers become the tanks. They would put on the best armor they could and find the most ways to mitigate that incoming damage.  There is always a taunt mechanism. Sometimes its hidden better than other times. It might be called heal 1, or it might be called Major Damage 1 or it might be called Stun 1 or it might even be called Taunt 1. Because pve mobs run on Artificial Intelligence scripts they have to have a sorting mechanism to determine who to attack and when to attack them and how to attack them. Players will eventually figure this routine out to some degree and use it to their advantage to make a tank even in a "tankless" game.

Of course to fully understand what I am saying you have to understand my definition of tank. Its the person who designs their character to take a majority of the hits from mobs with a better than average ability to take those hits and live. Some games with weak tanking abilities might require two people to fulfill this role by causing a mob to bounce between them. The only way to not have a tank in a game is to make sure there are zero ways a person can tank. IE no armor, no damage mitigation and no crowd control.

Also in your example I would probably say the person driving the tank would in fact be a tank so to speak, as a tanks primary purpose is to have heavier than normal armor while carrying a big gun, otherwise if all you wanted on the tank was the gun and the armor is useless then it would be more efficient to simply build a mobile rocket launcher type system or mobile turret or mobile artillery with no armor.

I still say my point holds that unless you have a game in which everything can die in less than 4 hits you will always have a tank. Just how good the tank is and how effective the tank is will depend on the specific system.

It's simple.

Have you played Left 4 Dead?  Zombies go for brains.   Female brains, veteran brains, office worker brains, or jackass brains, they don't frickin care.  They just want brains.  They usually go for whoevers right out there in front of them.  But they're zombies.  They don't have a "hate list".  They don't hate anybody, they just want brains!

Same deal in my futuristic MMORPG. The AI is straightforward in its attacks, often attacking whoever's closest and in line of sight.  The majority of targeting is a mix of randomly divvying up AIs amongst the human targets, and ensuring targets that make sense are chosen (based on proximity and LOS).

So no, the medic does not go on a hate list by healing.  At most there's a "I saw that player heal someone" boolean which provides a slight one-time increase to the probability the NPC will attack that player.

Obviously we're talking about the removal of the "threat game", so we're commiting to replacing that fun minigame with something of equal or greater fun.  In my game I think it'd be appropriate to make a series of overlapping patterns which can be mixed in interesting ways (different types of enemy troops, each of which can have different equipment loadouts.)  Basically the abilities and equipment of the enemies, and how you act and react to them, become the stars of the s

So is there "tanking"?  If you want to stretch the definition to encompass a mechanic which is significantly different from existing hate list systems, sure there's a tank.  But for every fight in a hallway where things are easily controlled and you keep your Power Armor Dude up front soaking up damage there are 2 more fights where you're ambushed from all directions and simply have to make the best of the situation while under fire.

Bosses would switch targets frequently as a function of the unique ways they'd engaged players (with one foe jetpacking into the air towards clumps of players, and another using a trident pattern of rocket fire, and another cloaking to backstab a random player.)

Is there a "taunt"?  Not at all.  But games were fun long before the idea of letting players exploit the AI's stupidity as a minigame, and this game would survive on the merits of having interesting enemy types to fight against, and interesting things to do within the level (like fighting your way into the generator room -- or sneaking in -- and blowing it to hurt their ability to bring reinforcements.)