Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by zymurgeist

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Originally posted by TsukieU

 

 

I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?

It's carrying out the idea to it's absurd extreme. it's a common device used  to point out how stupid something is. It shows the mindset in the United States doesn't allow such bizarre restrictions. 

My point here - this is not about the united states. This policy does not exist in the united states, there is no plan to add this policy to the united states. This is about China .. not the united states.

 
It's discriminatory, but it's also necessary where the margin of male population in the country means that a very good number of men are going to live lonely lives.  You know, since the whole government is freakishly homophobic.

Homophobia isn't necessary. In any form. Ever.  I's also not necessary for the margin of male population to be that high.

 

While on a personal level I agree with you .. thats simply not the case in China. Just because you say (and I say) its unacceptable will not make it so in China. That being said we have to play the cards dealt. Current population ratio in China 106 males to 100 women. Sounds small .. do the math on 1.3 billion. :(

Besides, we're talking about the country, that not even 50 years ago is was common practice to bind women's feet so that they couldn't travel far or run away without a man's help.

 Fifty years ago in the United States it was common practice to murder young people and bury them in swamps for registering black people to vote. We got over that. China needs to come out of it's dark ages too. They will be ridiculed until they do.
 
 

They will given time. Change is slow to come, as for ridicule .. that does not help the situation. Better to try and understand and work towards common ground rather than ridicule IMO

 

 

Yup, colored quotes are for shit. Useless method of communicating.
 

It's about our perception of China and our response to it.

Sorry I don't make special allowances for situations people create for themselves then perpetuate knowing they are wrong. The people who kill female infants know it's evil. It's a source of national shame. Yet they continue to do it. Maybe if they weren't so homophobic they would realize being homophobic is part of the problem. Being more homophobic isn't a solution to their problem.

Ridicule is the inevitable result of behaving stupidly. Eventually people catch on. They won't if everyone pretends stupidity is normal.

Originally posted by TsukieU

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 

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Originally posted by TsukieU

 

 

I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?

It's carrying out the idea to it's absurd extreme. it's a common device used  to point out how stupid something is. It shows the mindset in the United States doesn't allow such bizarre restrictions. 

 

Yes they do, you left out this part;

 

"Taking a webcam shot of you holding your Driver's License or other Government I.D. is a perfectly valid way of proving your Biological Sex. Quite a few dating sites require that sort of proof.

I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?

Seeing as MMOs to the Chinese are roughly equivalent to social networking sites in the USA, I don't honestly see it as that big an issue."

 

If you are going to quote me, quote the whole thing.  Not just the bits that make your argument look better.
 
It's discriminatory, but it's also necessary where the margin of male population in the country means that a very good number of men are going to live lonely lives.  You know, since the whole government is freakishly homophobic.

Homophobia isn't necessary. In any form. Ever.  I's also not necessary for the margin of male population to be that high.

 

I think you might be confused, it's not necessary for the margin of male population to be that high...no.   But it is that high, whether it is necessary or not.

 

Oh you also did the same thing again, here let me help you and add the text you cut out;

"Honestly, it's even more discriminatory to men. This is sort of a subversive way of routing out what they view as, "homosexual, or deviant sexual behaviour". Women being discriminated against is more or less collateral damage."
 

Homophobia isn't necessary, but I see it as a smart move from a company that is trying it's best to stay on the government's good side. 

 

Keep in mind this isn't government mandated, but rather a company's policy.  It's not about human rights when it's a product's terms of use.  Even in America it's not uncommon to have restrictions on a product's terms of use similar to this.

Besides, we're talking about the country, that not even 50 years ago is was common practice to bind women's feet so that they couldn't travel far or run away without a man's help.

 Fifty years ago in the United States it was common practice to murder young people and bury them in swamps for registering black people to vote. We got over that. China needs to come out of it's dark ages too. They will be ridiculed until they do.
 

 

Yes and people still do die for such things in places in America.  You are asking for an overnight instantaneous change.  These things do not happen.

 

 

 

 

 I apologize if I left out the parts that confirms you don't get it. I could really care less what their excuse for being stupid is when they're being stupid. The excuse is itself stupid.
 

Homophobia isn't necessary at any male population ratio. The male ratio being that high not only  isn't necessary it's bioth illegal and tacitly encouraged. Such are the two faces of China. Gender idenification is a stupid policy being done for stupid reasons for stupid government people who don't even care if they do it. What could be smart about that?

People do not do such things anywhere in the United States without having the full force of the law brought down upon their heads. That was accomplished within ten years. Government policies can and do change overnight.

Originally posted by demarc01

. Period.)

 

Haha talk about taking it to the limit.

Hate to break it to you but not all the world follows your world view. Where as i do accept that there are deffinate basic human rights that has nothing to do with trying to view a decison like this from another cultures viewpoint. While I mention human rights I should point out that Guantanamo Bay is a deffinate violation of human rights .. so dont get holier than thou with me about human rights when I bet you turn a blind eye to that since suspected terrorists "dont count" k?

No, I agree with you. It's abominable. If they are guilty of anything, give them a trial, present the evidence, and let a jury decide. If you don't have enough evidence to convict, you have no right to hold them. And, certainly, no right to torture. During WW2, the Allies got valuable intelligence out of captured Nazi POW's *without* torture or inhumane treatment, so the same techniques can and will work on captured terrorists.

Accepting that different parts of the world view things differently does not mean that you have to accept "everything" that culture embraces.

But what's your formula? What's your TEST? It sounds to me like all you have is a set of whims and feelings. "I like this". "I don't like that". How do you convince someone who disagrees with you that you're drawing the line in the right place? How do you convince someone doing something you think is wrong THAT what they're doing is wrong?

How do you decide what are trivial cultural practices and what are genuine moral issues?

Since you're going to ask, I begin with one premise: We own ourselves. Everything I believe follows from that. If you dispute that premise, you must tell me first who owns you and how they took possession.

You should be careful about judging others though .. unless you have a full understanding of the situation its very difficult to put yourself in another shoes and feel total empathy for what they were going through and the situation at hand. Juse because you dont feel something is right does not make it so ... bottom line.

And just because something is "what a culture does" doesn't make it right. As the great Opus the Penguin wrote, "Just because a million people do a stupid thing, doesn't mean it's not a stupid thing."

Most people it seems cant read through Bias, so I guess I am wasting my time here. I dont want people to agree with the "prove your sex policy" or disagree with it. I want people to educate themselves, find out why they would impliment such and thing and find out its ramifications on the chinese player base and THEN draw a conclusion as to wether its a good or bad thing for the CHINESE player base (not for you personally since it has no effect on you personally) I want people to look past bias look past culture and self-educate. Should be easy with the inter-webz at your fingertips no?

Sometimes, this is valuable. Other times, it's a waste of time. Even if the Chinese like it, it's STILL a stupid thing. Americans like a lot of stupid things, too. *I* like a lot of stupid things. I mean, I spend time posting not just on Internet message boards, but on MMORPG.com, which is, let's face it, one step above 4Chan when it comes to hoping for any kind of intelligent response.

 This rule crack me up. I ONLY play with fem characters..lol.... I dont give a fuck for what those dog eaters think, they are communists...

Originally posted by greymann

Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense.

When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.

 

That's a retarded analogy! There's a big difference between a gaming company in china doing whatever the hell they want with their own product, which is subject to the local consumers actually making it a success, and a murderous religious group’s actions. In this case, NO. No one from another culture has the right to dictate their own ethics onto another’s entertainment products, as you suggest. I bet you have a char named Lizzy don't you?

Nope. I have never played a female character in an online game, actually, mostly because I don't want horny idiots IMing me all the time. I do sometimes play females in paper&pencil RPGs, about 25% of the time, I'd guess.

Did you, by the way, read BEYOND the paragraph you quoted? Or did you just get all internet-flamey and reply without reading the bit where I said it was not a valid comparison and that a private company has the right to make whatever stupid decisions it wants, and I have the right to say they're stupid?

I find it interesting that most people on this forum seem to think, "If someone says this is dumb, it means he wants to force people to do things his way!" I think that says a lot about the mentality of the people who post here, and it's not very flattering. It is very possible -- essential in a free society -- to completely disapprove of things some people do while accepting that they must have the freedom to do them. If it were up to me, an awful lot of things which are currently illegal, and which I personally think are immoral or self-destructive, would be legal, because even if I don't like them, I don't have the right (nor does the government, acting as my proxy) to stop them.

Hell, look at your own reply. If I support cross-gender gaming, it MUST be because I do it, right? It's very... revealing. It would seem you can't imagine supporting something on the basis of principle or philosophy. In your world, apparently, one only supports or approves what one personally does.

Fascinating. Sickening, but fascinating.

How strange... I suppose it was only a matter of time really. I greatly appreciated the references to The Might Boosh however. :)

This really should be a case by case subject matter. Forcing this on all MMO's, I don't see a point, but...

I am an avid RP'er, but I am also an avid ahem, erm, lover of women. I admit I have come to know a few ladies over the Internet on MMORPGs and made really great friends and more that way as well. That all being said I assume all male characters to be female, BUT if they are playing an RPG game they should expect for male characters to actively seek their friendship. It's what guys do, arguing that men should not try and form relationships online is just as bad as saying men should not play female characters.

The severe problem I have run into is when men promote themselves as women, even if they are a man in real life. There have been three cases in my own span of playing MMO's online in the last 14 years or so. I don't know where they get off on doing this, maybe it's just to mess with people, but it's really not enjoyable.

ERP between characters? I do not ask a character's gender unless they start to try and get to know me OOC. I leave all the in character stuff between the characters. I have found that many emotions spill over from character to out of character. I had a character in WoW that I enjoyed role-playing, he was the leader of the second largest guild of the server so he was well known, and had a girlfriend in game. We became friends outside the in game relationship, and yes she was a woman in real life and even had a boyfriend and I had a girlfriend. Long story short, I had him end the relationship and it broke her heart in real life. Not only did it break her heart it screwed up some of the in game guild stuff which aggravated me.

So, I can see why they may want to do this for their game. Maybe it is more like a dating type game, maybe they have more explicit material in the game (I know Second Life has all sorts of people in it though). Most people seem to think of an MMO as just a game with many people playing it and shouldn't care about gender, but I disagree. Gender is a very big issue in game and outside of game. Maybe they to try and keep the drama to a minimum, but the choice is theirs at it is their game. We can banter back and forth all day, but it is their property and they can do with it what they will.

I've only played one female character - and even RP'ed her too. I enjoyed giving guys a really hard time being a crazy orc warrior woman but kept her strictly out of any type of relationship. Also remember one of my tanks playing a male orc warrior was actually female underwear model, distinctly remember her from the pictures she sent me...

While I disagree with people playing opposite genders, I'm not going to force them to play their own gender...

Originally posted by Maleus666

 This rule crack me up. I ONLY play with fem characters..lol.... I dont give a fuck for what those dog eaters think, they are communists...

Dog taste good

If they want to force gender this badly they can do like some games do and set the gender to the account's gender, it will just be equally falsifiable as their webcam joke and give them less work, and even then i find it very stupid to force a gamer to choose their specific gender in RL, i like women, i like playing women characters, they look sexier, and that's bloody natural, and i'm not going to molest/flirt/secks up any players because i'm playing a game not a social network for dating, this decision to force players to choose their real gender is so <insert the degrading term that you wish here>.

Beside, who in their bloody mind would go thru all this just to play one of those copy-cat grinding fantasy games? Yea most of the games are like that, it would have to be outstandingly good to even bother, seriously, they are only cutting their community.

It's China...what can I say? 

This is a Great idea that I have often wished implemented.  I remember way back in the day, guys playing girls getting special treatment just for pretending to be a girl.  Maybe its not for every MMO, but I think a game deseigner should have the option to implement such a thing without getting flammed.  Most games have all kinds of crazy rules, and don't get half as flammed.  This is not as bad as lets say.  XP Debt or  Deleveling, this is just a flavor option and doesn't really effect game play.  Also I'd like it if the news presented was a little more objective.  I don't want to hear totally biased updates. 

Once again an authoritarian organization (the game company) attempts to tighten its fist to exercise control over people without realizing their "verfication" process is totally flawed.

Most homes have a female in them, most men know or have a female friend (gay or straight).

Simply have a female register the frickin account and sit in the video teleconference to assure the control-freaks a woman owns the account. I own MMO's but I'm not the only one in my house that uses the accounts.

Anyone with a smidgen of intelligence knows these rules are just plain silly and are easily worked around.

Remember, there's always a loophole. Cheers.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Stradden

This week, MMORPG.com's Jon Wood takes a shot at a recent decision by a Chinese MMO company to ban all male players who choose to play female avatars.

  Women, it appears, are free to pose as men as much as their little hearts desire.

Read Your Sex: Prove It or Lose It!

 

So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault.    Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues.    Guys have been playing female toons like forever.   Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider?  Thought so.   Nobody thought anything of that did they.    So why make a big deal out of this.   If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them.    All this article is is sensationalism.   Come on...this is not worthy of an article.     This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up.    ::sigh::

The diminutive 'little hearts desire' was a bit precious, and 'pose' is loaded, especially in view of the tone of the rest of the article (where freedom to roleplay any (possibly silly) thing one is not inside an MMORPG was defended in sterling fashion) but aside from those trivial (probably unconscious) slips, I caught no serious hint that the Author was trying to rag on my gender in particular.

(Of course, consider that I've never read anything he's written before.)

It is sensationalistic to a degree, but then again, if we in the rest of the world do not point out where China's culture is being stupid and where and how their institutions are enforcing that stupidity, who will? Think about it. Probably not anyone in China, even those there who would like to. Maybe we owe it to everyone to complain if we feel like it, just because we (still) can.

As trivial as this seems, it is an intolerable thing. The fact that people including women who wish to play male 'toons are exempt NOW from compliance is just an oversight, easily "remedied" as in perpetrated on every client for this game as soon as someone remembers to be fair about mandating something fundamentally unfair. I'd like to be confident that the choice if not the voice of the consumer would consign the idea to the trash, but am not.

Further on the downside, the rest of the world (vs. China) probably constitutes (or soon will constitute) a minority of the market, and so it matters even less than it should what we rest think.

Originally posted by Kaelaan21

Wait ... I just thought about this for a moment. This is just another Asian MMO. So, what is all the concern about? You know that the bulk of the player base are going to have submit photos or webcam shots simular to this one:

 

No wait! you made me think about it for a moment. This is just another Asian MMO, so what's all the concern about? The male avatars are every bit as feminine as female avatars.....everyone is playing a woman.

*Don't take me seriously - just kidding*

To all forum posters.

Please no more posts about which sex may be "superior" and no more posts putting down the other sex. Also if you have a issue with what has been said please use the report tool and don't respond to the post in question.

Cheers

AnimusChaser

Originally posted by AnimusChaser

To all forum posters.

Please no more posts about which sex may be "superior" and no more posts putting down the other sex. Also if you have a issue with what has been said please use the report tool and don't respond to the post in question.

Cheers

AnimusChaser

But my response to the sexist was funny! /wink

I don't see the big issue really, characters are usually equal no matter what the sex of the character.

In fact while I could not care less I can see the argument for such a choice to limit sexuality. if a company is directing the game to children then it would be in their interests to avoid unnecessary challenges of sexuality for youth, as well as avoiding any possible misunderstandings between players. In a sense they are caring for those who have trouble caring for themselves.

Saying this points out the obvious dilemna most westerners have, that it is someone telling you what to do, and this is what I think has got up most people's panties (boxers?). Because we have previously been given freedom to make a choice then the removal of that freedom seems worse. Basically, If you had never been given the option in the first place, would you care now? My guess is that there would be half the amount of naysayers if that were the case.

Ignorance is bliss. 

Originally posted by Grym

Once again an authoritarian organization (the game company) attempts to tighten its fist to exercise control over people without realizing their "verfication" process is totally flawed.

Most homes have a female in them, most men know or have a female friend (gay or straight).

Simply have a female register the frickin account and sit in the video teleconference to assure the control-freaks a woman owns the account. I own MMO's but I'm not the only one in my house that uses the accounts.

Anyone with a smidgen of intelligence knows these rules are just plain silly and are easily worked around.

Remember, there's always a loophole. Cheers.

I don't think that is the issue - really what the issue is that business yet again show they have to much power over certain things.

Sure people may say well its their company, its their rules, yet going to lengths as banning people because simply they play a female character and not be female in real life? Seem rather bad business practice since they are loosing allot of business and business is money.

Yet going agree with someone above, since they don't force the same rules on females playing males that this is clearly a personal issue that was drawn into business. There is no reason other then that someone high up must be playing the game. Either they had a bad experience were they were dating someone online and found out they were not who they were claiming or they are very very against guys playing females.

I am willing to believe the first one. Since it just seems rather odd.

Over all they just going hurt their own business and sure would like to see an American company pull that hehe oh that would be a nice month of media right there.

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Also for Haratu why is it just western culture? Do you really think the guys that were ban, or told they had to play male or get out did not have an issues or dilemmas themselfs?

Face it it happen in Asia which last I checked was in the east.

Also it not as simple as you put it for one they are allowing females to have a choice still. So its not just black and white, but shades of grays.

It wouldn't be communist if people have choices, is it? Just saying...

1 im male, from birth to grave.

2 i play female charactors, from runescape, eq, eq2, wow, 100's of fee mmo's.

3 im not in any way attracted to guys.

4 i play a female charactor typically due to either the male charactor looking well, stupid, or and heres my typicall reasion, i just dont care to look at an overly mussled guys arse for the 400 hours it takes to get to the level cap in most games.  i mean really it would make me feel uncomfertable to look at that for that long.   i know its just pixles but if the pixles didnt matter then this entire story thread and discussion wouldnt happen.

5 bottem line i think its more homosexual in nature to play a male charactor and be stuck in third person looking at that, then to play a sexy little nympho looking female charactor who at least in my long hours of running from one city to one dungon after another at least makes my screen more appleaing in the process.  after all how many strate guys have pictures of a guys butt on their desktop, more likely you got a gloryous womans behind sitting on that screen when you exit your game.

Jon Wood as always a wonderful read with insite and facts displayed equilly.

Haha, I have always assumed every female  avatar was a guy until i could confirm their voice. I don't have any numbers but I'm certain that there are way, way more guys playing female avatars that actual females. I really don't care but I certainly don't take for granted that just because its a female toon that its actually a girl.

All I could do was laugh when I heard of this...

Its the best thing I have seen all year, except that kid who tried sueing over some MMO account banning.

I play as female characters sometimes because I like the outfits they wear. Like in city of heroes, theres so many possiblities with female characters. thers billions of ways to make a skimpy outfit for gals. but for guys, its either regular clothes, tights or armor. I'd never wear these things, so why make a character in my image? I instead make cool looking girls that are easy on the eyes.

the only people who hit on girls are 12 year olds and retarded 30+ year olds. Theres also the sad lonely 20ish year olds sometimes, they are slow in the head. You can tell by the way they speak.

As long as this doesn't become a trend I dont see what the big deal is about this one company. If it did, I could probably get away with being a girl if i put on some make up or something since i still look like i'm 15 or 16 and have long hair and no creepy mustache. As long as I dont have to speak, lolz

Jon Wood, I think you are over reacting a bit, rather not looking at the larger picture. First, we have to accept and understand there is a thing called a cultural model. This decision by the developers and or publisher falls under china's cultural model. Second we have to accept that games and society are worth analyzing. We cannot say it is a bad move on their part because we do not understand all the facets of that decision within society or how it will affect the game play experience. I personally love the decision. For one, it can set the game apart from a pure marketing stand point. No one is forcing anyone else to play the game, therefore that decision might attract a target audience instead. You also have to look at females in gaming. Would girls like to play with girls? Is this decision above reinforcing that by being able to identify a fellow female? Same with males. Games and society, even if decisions seem absurd, can reveal much about who and how games appeal to their target audience, who their target audience really is and if it works. Can we not claim that gender restriction is merely part of the rule set? The game mechanic? I think its absurd to dismiss their move as bad. It is neither good nor bad, unless you give value to doing something different. Remember, MMO's are largely social games. Studies have shown the average female is attracted to social games. How do you think that might play into this decision? Can it change the play experience and for the better? These are questions to ask, not dismiss.