I'd rather stare at a female ass for the endless time-sink hours of playing an MMO.  If anything, a dude rolling a female toon is LESS gay than a male.

Originally posted by ebonfire

Second Life tried some identity verification system for age, but I'm not sure how well that worked for them.  I think most people probably understand the reason why, and also that really if they can do it for age.. they could probably run something like that for gender.

Honestly I kind of chuckled a little inside at the outrage.  In 12+ years of being on the internet, I've sat and watched the strict code of anonymity slowly change into a word of social networks and tweets.  It seems to me that MMO communities have been declining in that same period, from friendly and helpful, into harsh and immature.  I attribute this to the multiple layers of anonymity that gamers still want to hind behind, being accountable only to the TOS, and distancing the idea of being true to yourself and others.   Now I don't like the idea of forcing someone to play their gender in a game, but I'm not threatened by breaking down a little bit of that anonymity.   Certainly the 'RPG' side of the MMOs would lose a little, and I acknowledge that.

 

I agree with that. I personally only play male characters, since I'm male and can't relate to a female toon, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over an invasive policy like this. You prove your gender through your credit card anyways. It's not nearly 100% fool proof, but it's less invasive than a webcam.

So how did all that work out, back in September of 2007?

(Seriously, this story is two years old. Was there some followup info I missed in the post?)

Originally posted by clik

The only people defending this kind of garbage are the same people that will probably end up on the cover of your news papers for being a pedo.  Drooling retards that most likely got their chubby ruined by a female avatar that started typing "sup bro."  Check it nerds you're better off meeting a woman in real life MMOs are still video games not dating services.

I laughed at this. Those three words speak volumes about Clik. Check what? By bags? Nerds? You're posting on a gaming forum, hello?

Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by Mequellios

 If I may point out, I don't even think it's the inequality behind it that Jon found sick, it was what they required for proof: webcam appearance. Any feminine guy can dress as a girl, so what proof would they demand? I think he's disgusted by the fact that they may require a shot of sexual organs as evidence for gender. On top of that, any guy can ask his sister or girlfriend to fill in as their "proof" rendering the entire system pointless for practical purposes. And since only females are required to do this, the real motive behind this system should be critically questioned.

No, I pretty much found the whole situation absurd. From the inequality to the absolute insanity of trying to actually enforce this kind of policy.

It's silly is all. That was the point.

Thats your opinion based on a western view-point.

While I myself find it "kinda-odd" I am able to look past my western upbringing and try to reason as to why this would be acceptable to another culture and even encouraged by some sections of that culture. You seem incapable of doing so. The world is bigger than your backyard my friend.

View-points that you dont understand are not always "wrong" or in your words "It's silly is all."

Bias is in everyone (even me I admit it) but if you want to really interact with people on a world wide basis you have to accept your own bias and try to look beyond it. The internet *IS* world wide, the first true world wide communication system for the common man in mankinds history. Dismissing something because it does not fit your cultural "norm" wont get you far in a discussions with people that transend man-made bounderys on a map. (Unless of course your only goal was to stir up western opinion about *those silly chinese* .. which would paint you as a sad individual) 

You wrote a piece on a topic that has NO IMPACT on you (There are no plans to put this system in place in thier western games as yet) and tried to hype-it up and garner outrage from an audiance (the western market) that it has no impact on. Worse still you wrote the artical with (you admit it) no refrence to the culture that it does impact or thier feelings on it. Typical media BS.

Before you write articles like this you should at least do a little homework on why they are doing this, what the people actually effected by it feel, are they against it? Its is a ploy for media attention? Do they have what they feel is good reason? .. rather than getting your panties in a twist because someone somewhere is doing something that you dont understand. Try being more objective in your writing and less bias (again, we all have bias, great writers can look past thier own bias though .. you it seems cant)

First off thinking a guy is gay because he makes a girl is stupid. Second thinking that just because other people find it weird doesn't mean we think the guy playing as a girl is gay. IF anything I would assume a gay guy would play a guy because a) he is a guy b) he likes looking at guys.

Plus the defense of saying you would rather look at a chick instead of a dude, that makes you less gay than me. Its a video game, its an computer generated cartoon, it is not a woman. That makes you creepier than I.

Originally posted by clik

The only people defending this kind of garbage are the same people that will probably end up on the cover of your news papers for being a pedo.  Drooling retards that most likely got their chubby ruined by a female avatar that started typing "sup bro."  Check it nerds you're better off meeting a woman in real life MMOs are still video games not dating services.

For me thats the kicker here though.

For us in the western market MMORPGs are NOT dating services.

In China though? Are they? Do people in China use MMORPGs more for a social networking tool (AkA dating service) or do they use it as we do as a form of entertainment.

If they do indeed use it more for social networking then with thier population statistics (male > female ratio) I can more understand this stance taken by the "game" company. When its less a game and more a "dating service" as you put it then indeed sex verification becomes a little more important. Even more so if there is a rash of Chinese males being scammed by male players posing as females

If you signed on to Match.com and found that the Female that you had been in E-mail contact with was infact male how would you feel? Maby thats how the male "gamer" (I use the word with resivation if infact they use games as a social meeting place) in China feels now? Maby for the males over there looking for a life partner some assurance that the person they are talking to is infact female bares some weight?

Just because the western market has free time and cash to spend on games just for gaming does not mean that game are used in the same way in China. Hence my point, cultural differences are there and unless we try to understand another cultures view point there is little reason to try and discuss it. The original artical was flawed in many ways and is typical of a western poster who has little to no understanding of things outside of his/her sphere and little wish to try and expand thier own view of the world. I am saddened when I read articles like this because it shows the intolerance of man towards man and bodes ill of our future. Until we can understand our neighbour how can we get along with him?

I'm not saying that I am right and that in China this is all acceptable. Maby over there they view it as odd and strange too, the difference between me and the article writer is I would try to find out more and understand why this was happening and how it was viewed (Either good or bad) by the people it directly effected rather than take just my own bias and force it upon the issue as he/she did. Sad.

Not only do they abort girls there (not only in China of course) but they say you can't even role-play a female.That's pretty misogonistic it seems to me.

Originally posted by BisWinter

First off thinking a guy is gay because he makes a girl is stupid. Second thinking that just because other people find it weird doesn't mean we think the guy playing as a girl is gay. IF anything I would assume a gay guy would play a guy because a) he is a guy b) he likes looking at guys.

Plus the defense of saying you would rather look at a chick instead of a dude, that makes you less gay than me. Its a video game, its an computer generated cartoon, it is not a woman. That makes you creepier than I.

I'm having a hard time following you BisWinter.

First of all you seem to be very against guys having female Avatars ... heres a direct quote from you in a previous post -

"Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses."

Yet this post you seem to be saying that thinking a guy is gay for playing a female is wrong?

If I am following you then your opinion is that playing a female is wierd and against social norms, BUT playing a female does not make you gay? Thats your point as I read it. Correct me if I am wrong? Or you just forgot to log on your alt account to stir trouble? Apparently making a female Avatar is "less gay than you" but "creepy"? Your train of though just eludes me at present (Prob the 12-pack causing that tho :p )

China has been wrestling with sexual deviation issues since Chairman Mao declared all things outside his idea of what is "normal"  as being bad.  At the forefront, is a campaign to stamp out homosexuality... it is illegal there and can get you jail or death.  Despite this, China has a large, openly gay population that is growing, and it vexes the conservative government to no end.

Likewise, in Asia, there are many men who like to dress up and otherwise be feminine regardless of what their actual sexual orientation is.  This is also against party doctrine.  And like the gay issue, it is not going away and, in fact, is growing in popularity which, again, peeves the government off.

I wager it is based off the very wrong assumption that it is the gay players who make the female toons as well as a means to keep the straight boys straight via banning cross-tooning.  This policy by this company is probably a reaction to China's greater policies on the above issues, and like all such knee-jerk policies, it is full of fail.

First of all, a gay man will make a male toon so to be able to see pretty male pixels and if he should score cybersex, it would be with another male toon.  The whole girl on guy sex thing ruins the fun.

Secondly, In Second Life, the largest number of males who make female toons and engage in cybersex are those men who enjoy lesbian fantasies ala Penthouse Magazine.  In short, it is not the gays doing this, it is the straight guys.  The gay guys make, well, gay male toons.

The other problem, is if a female toon really is a girl, then all the stalkers know who to hit on.  This will force many girls to make male toons which should also be banned if such policies are in force, but it is not.  Why?  Because the stalking and fondling of women is common place, and even quietly accepted, in China.

Thus, those posters who called this chinese company a bunch of bigoted perves has it totally right.  It will actually hurt women far more than gays, and force straight men to stare at a horridly rendered neanderthal dude's ass for hours and hours of grinding.

One has to wonder how they will categorize herms?   My guess they will completely barred from playing altogether given the cruelty of this company's intentions.

Lastly, I have to wonder if men will be banned from playing games like Tomb Raider?

 Oh, and I'd liek to point out something that people seem to have forgotten. MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE PLAYING Game. In other words, if the fantasy role you want to play is a member of the opposite sex, than that is your perogative. If you have cybersex with people in MMO's and are upset by this, well, find a real partner and stop playing so much.

I will confess this.

I hate when guys play females because to me it's misrepresenting oneself.  I kinda hate ppl pretending to be someone they're not.

THAT being said... I play MYSELF (don't rollplay} on all online games...i might be unique in that so i don't judge others for it.

but back in the pre nge days of swg..."the good ol days" it was common practice to be down on what was then called a "shim" that term i did not really subscribe to but it was used alot then.

since then 'games' like second life showed me ALOT more need for properly identifying the avatar as a proper gender...anyone that's been there understands what that mean...

but also...in a game like say AoC the female toons are stunningly hot and alot of guys ...admitedly...like some boobies in their face....but i don't have to play a chic toon to enjoy that myself...

eh...

whatever floats your boat.  Just don't come to me as a chic avatar when you're a guy and try and hit on me...that's blatant misrepresentation of yourself and why i have issues with it....back to square ONE.

Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by Teala

So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault.    Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues.    Guys have been playing female toons like forever.   Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider?  Thought so.   Nobody thought anything of that did they.    So why make a big deal out of this.   If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them.    All this article is is sensationalism.   Come on...this is not worthy of an article.     This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up.    ::sigh::

*ahem*

What?

Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?

No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.

I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.

 

I'm sorry...I'm just - having a bad week OK.   My bad.   :(     I apologize.  It's a good article.  
 

In my new MMO (FE) i play one female and one male. the female is my main while the main is more of a scout/explorer to areas i missed on my main.

would this make me 1/2 gay in china's eyes?
lets look at a male onscreen or a female onscreen all day. quite sure the male would be the gay one if any was...

and also, this should mean be banning females who play as males also?
or why do they just make everyone sexless and add in some random lore how it is some bio-toxin that makes everyone asexual, this would fix the problem completely

In the morning, I have to do a handstand to go to the toilet.

I do not fully disagree with a law like that, there must be reasons behind it. I always play female characters in mmos and I am a male, but we are in NA.

Don't forget that in China and a lot of Asian countries, playing online games is a lifestyle, and a lot of people, especially younger people play games as their main social life. They go on to play the games and to meet and make friends with people. Even a lot of relationships are started on online games.

A lot of the younger generations are playing these games, and I think that if a 14 year old girl gets approached by a female character pretending to be female in real life and start developing a friendship with that person who is actually a 30 year old man decieving her so that he can get personal with her and maybe rape her, then I think that this law can protect younger children.

My example is a little extreme, but it happens a lot online, and sexual predators, especially in Asian countries are starting to target mmo players. Why do you think that games like Wizard 101 and Free Realms don't allow open chat unless you can prove that you are an adult? It is to protect the younger children.

Originally posted by Faxxer

I will confess this.

I hate when guys play females because to me it's misrepresenting oneself.  I kinda hate ppl pretending to be someone they're not.

THAT being said... I play MYSELF (don't rollplay} on all online games...i might be unique in that so i don't judge others for it.

but back in the pre nge days of swg..."the good ol days" it was common practice to be down on what was then called a "shim" that term i did not really subscribe to but it was used alot then.

since then 'games' like second life showed me ALOT more need for properly identifying the avatar as a proper gender...anyone that's been there understands what that mean...

but also...in a game like say AoC the female toons are stunningly hot and alot of guys ...admitedly...like some boobies in their face....but i don't have to play a chic toon to enjoy that myself...

eh...

whatever floats your boat.  Just don't come to me as a chic avatar when you're a guy and try and hit on me...that's blatant misrepresentation of yourself and why i have issues with it....back to square ONE.

 

I kinda understand what your saying.

Being taken in is abhorent to most of us. On the other hand people seem to focus in on the males playing female that do it. I'm sure all of us have heard of, or have been the victims of scams in some form or another in online games. Yet theres no where near as much "press" about people being taken in by others acting as game GMs, or guild masters or whatever.

Its more a "personal" insult when we are fooled by someone portraying themselves as being of the wrong sex, than it is as them portraying themselves as being something else. I guess its just an evolutionary thing that we "should' recognize someone as being a possible mating partner, where-as we are more forgiving of ourselves being taken in by other scams.

As I've said in other posts, I occasionally play female Avatars although I never try to pass myself off as being a female IRL. I am forthcomming about being a male and its no issue to me. I dont try to seek out females in-game (I have a wife thanks, 9 years and still happy!) I also dont try to scam people in game, if a deal is made I uphold to it to the letter. I guess that what I am trying to say is that people are more forgiving of themselves if they are scammed out of gold / in game items etc by someone else because they accept that "shit happens", Where-as when they have an emotional involvement (IE they believe that the other person is a female who they have "connected with") they are less forgiving of themselves because they "should have known better" )

I guess this is where the "If you play a gurl UR weird" comes from.

Most people prob dont realize that many of the female Avatars they deal with (and indeed alot of the male ones - I know alot of females that play male Avatars) are not actually the sex portrayed. Yet you can be sure that the one time they were taken in by a guy playing that "cute 18 year old" they remember it for life!!

Which kinda rounds to my point about the OP's topic. If, and I said IF, there are alot of young Chinese males being "scammed' by apparent female characters then having a system in place that assures females in game are actually female holds some weight no? Being scammed by a female suxs but is no where near as big a blow to the male ego as being scammed by a male pretending to be a female ...

Thats not to say this is 100% why the company in question is taking these mesures, maby they have different reasons, although the OP failed to explore these and instead just decided to use his culture barrier to exploite a news story without actually garnering any facts or information at all.

In point, I'm not defending the company in question or thier actions since I dont know the reasons behind them or the cultural ramifications of them. I just wish that the OP in writing his artical had taken the time to explore thier reasoning and gotten some input from the people effected by it before posting his "story". Cultural ignorance is a poor bias for an article.

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by BisWinter

First off thinking a guy is gay because he makes a girl is stupid. Second thinking that just because other people find it weird doesn't mean we think the guy playing as a girl is gay. IF anything I would assume a gay guy would play a guy because a) he is a guy b) he likes looking at guys.

Plus the defense of saying you would rather look at a chick instead of a dude, that makes you less gay than me. Its a video game, its an computer generated cartoon, it is not a woman. That makes you creepier than I.

 

I'm having a hard time following you BisWinter.

First of all you seem to be very against guys having female Avatars ... heres a direct quote from you in a previous post -

"Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses."

Yet this post you seem to be saying that thinking a guy is gay for playing a female is wrong?

If I am following you then your opinion is that playing a female is wierd and against social norms, BUT playing a female does not make you gay? Thats your point as I read it. Correct me if I am wrong? Or you just forgot to log on your alt account to stir trouble? Apparently making a female Avatar is "less gay than you" but "creepy"? Your train of though just eludes me at present (Prob the 12-pack causing that tho :p )

I was trying to keep up with the conversation. Someone posted that people that think its weird ( a guy playing as a girl) must think said gamer is "wrong/gay". He then went on to list like 5 unrelated things like authors writing female characters and what not. Then someone else posted that he makes female characters because he would rather look at a chick and by doing so he is less gay then all us guys who play guys.

To sum up my point of view. I don't care if men play as women. But I do think it is weird. It doesn't make them gay or wrong. I would just like to know their reasoning. I've heard tons of excuses, but they just don't make any sense. I.E. the guy playing a girl to look at a girl. Its just an animated cartoon. That in itself is kind of creepy. Though I admit when I was 9 I had a crush on Dr. Blight from Captain Planet.

Wow...really?

Jeebus, that's totally uncalled for. Unless the player has a bunch of sexual harassment complaints filed against him, there's absolutely NO reason for the company to care what gender a player's character is.

for ages ONLY men were allowed to portray women in stage performances all around the world, as being an actor was considered a man's role in society.  needless to say what this company is doing is discriminatory to say the least. 

Regardless of over-arching social issues, or stances on whether it's acceptable to play a toon cross-gender (I routinely play female characters, however in any OOC conversation I make no effort to carry on the illusion.), there's something kind of obvious that seems worth pointing out.

I  don't claim to know anything about Chinese law, but depending on the social protections for people submitting this "confirmation", and the extent to which that company is taking the definition of "Biological proof", wouldn't this seem like a poorly masked effort to build a, y'know..  porn database?  I'd say there's more important exploitative behavior here to be pissed off about than the shallow issues surrounding whether or not that night-elf Jimmy Joe Bob cybered with yesterday was really a girl.

 this topic is so full of fail, vote to remove it from the forums!

I think a lot of the things that still go on in China would make you cry Jon.  This kind of thing, imo, is a small sample of what a lot of us would find to be a very intrusive, oppressive society.

It makes me a bit more mindful of some of the freedoms I take for granted daily.

Originally posted by BisWinter

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by BisWinter

First off thinking a guy is gay because he makes a girl is stupid. Second thinking that just because other people find it weird doesn't mean we think the guy playing as a girl is gay. IF anything I would assume a gay guy would play a guy because a) he is a guy b) he likes looking at guys.

Plus the defense of saying you would rather look at a chick instead of a dude, that makes you less gay than me. Its a video game, its an computer generated cartoon, it is not a woman. That makes you creepier than I.

 

I'm having a hard time following you BisWinter.

First of all you seem to be very against guys having female Avatars ... heres a direct quote from you in a previous post -

"Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses."

Yet this post you seem to be saying that thinking a guy is gay for playing a female is wrong?

If I am following you then your opinion is that playing a female is wierd and against social norms, BUT playing a female does not make you gay? Thats your point as I read it. Correct me if I am wrong? Or you just forgot to log on your alt account to stir trouble? Apparently making a female Avatar is "less gay than you" but "creepy"? Your train of though just eludes me at present (Prob the 12-pack causing that tho :p )

I was trying to keep up with the conversation. Someone posted that people that think its weird ( a guy playing as a girl) must think said gamer is "wrong/gay". He then went on to list like 5 unrelated things like authors writing female characters and what not. Then someone else posted that he makes female characters because he would rather look at a chick and by doing so he is less gay then all us guys who play guys.

 

To sum up my point of view. I don't care if men play as women. But I do think it is weird. It doesn't make them gay or wrong. I would just like to know their reasoning. I've heard tons of excuses, but they just don't make any sense. I.E. the guy playing a girl to look at a girl. Its just an animated cartoon. That in itself is kind of creepy. Though I admit when I was 9 I had a crush on Dr. Blight from Captain Planet.

Ahh ok. Maby I can answer some of your questions.

I personally dont mind if I play a guy or girl character. For me its about character models. If i think a girl model has a more fluid animation set, or the armor models "fit" better then I will lean towards playing a Girl character. It has nothing to do with the age old *Looking a a girls ass for 4 hours a day* BS.

Honestly I am of the opinion that developers aim to "please" girl gamers more than male gamers. It seems to me (personal observation here) that girl characters have more time spent on them when it comes to animation details etc. Thier modeling is more "realistic" (Abit from a penthouse fantasy rather than real life) than that of male models (which all appear top-heavy to me .. more brawn than brain) I like how the female models appear more fluid . Thier movements seem more natural than the male counter parts.

When I view Male models in most games they are of the "triangle" format, thin at the bottom with exagerated shoulders and a huge main body mass. It just does not relate to me persoanlly. Now games where I can fully customize my avatars appearance I tend to play males, I tend to play a shorter (even though I am 6'1" IRL) more slender (I aint a fatty) but well portioned male. Most games dont offer this and give and exagerated male physique that I just dont relate too.

Its strange and just aesthetic to me.

Thats not to say that I am some strange person at odds with my sexuality. I am male, Married many years and happy to be so. If I cant relate at all to the male models in a game I am more likly to play a female character with fluid movements and a body type I find appealing. My wife has no issue with this and plays along side me. Sure when I was younger and first started playing MMORPGs I always played male characters .. as I've aged and am totally comfortable with my own sexuality I've moved to playing characters I find appealing over "just males".

Thats possibly where the taunts about personal comfort with sexuality come from. Those of us who are older really dont view it as a big issue and play a character based on other factors opposed to sex. We play what the sex that we view as most aesthetically pleasing to us .... be it male or female. It we "feel" it moves right and reacts right we have no problems with it. Game developers (to my mind) seem to be trying to "catch" the female market and are thus more willing to invest more time into making female Avatars move and act more "smoothly" than thier male counter parts. Maby someday soon male Avatars will get as much love and I'll play more males in-game .. who knows??

I think this has more to do with the Chinese state of things more than anything.

In most countries women outnumber men just slightly, or are almost even.  In China the ratio is something like 10 men to every 1 woman.  This, where the government is panic-struck by the mere thought of homosexuality.  So it is sort of understandable from the perspective of one of the largest game companies, where a good number of Chinese men spend most of their waking moments in these games.

Is it right?  No...but it does make sense.