Originally posted by Terranah

Next thing you know they will start asking people who play muscular, athletic good looking characters to provide proof.  I mean...we wouldn't want some ugly person playing an attractive character, or some fat guy playing a muscular toon.  That would be false representation right?  Or some short guy playing a tall toon. 

 

Basically what is going on here are some very, very horny game developers who probably haven't had sex in a very, very long time.  If they are asking for people to send in pictures of their genitals I think they shoud be investigated, ESPECIALLY if the gamers are minors.  Sounds like pediphelia central over there. 

 

Well it is China after all

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by Teala

So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault.    Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues.    Guys have been playing female toons like forever.   Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider?  Thought so.   Nobody thought anything of that did they.    So why make a big deal out of this.   If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them.    All this article is is sensationalism.   Come on...this is not worthy of an article.     This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up.    ::sigh::

*ahem*

What?

Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?

No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.

I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.

 

 

I agree Jon!  What is next?  Is the company going to have you on webcam each time you login and if they question your gender ask you to well.... bend over and "smile" for the camera to prove you are female?  I mean seriously.  That company is just nuts.

 

Well that might not be a bad idea..After all anything can happen in China..hehehe

After the article, I haven't read more than the first couple of posts and I doubt anyone will actually read this one, but add me to the group of people who think...

Originally posted by Rosenthorn

 

---

Originally posted by Keogh
 
Jon,
Your opinion is based upon a Western perspective. Everyone in the world does not share the same perspectives, values (or lack of values) as those of the West.
I'd much rather read your commentary about this subject if it included an interview with the studio's management or shed some light upon the difference between the Eastern and Western customer.
You might even interview someone that knows the Chinese culture to gain some insight.
 
 

---

 

This post has hit the nail on he head. The article was written from a purely WESTERN perspective and as such could be seen by people of another culture as being rather biggoted.

Who are we to tell other countries how they should conduct themselves socially...and like it or not MMO's are a Scoial Network as well as a form of entertainment. The demographics of the game in question were never mentioned. If it is young single people looking to meet others online...then assuring the target group that the "female" they meet every night is actually a "female" could be a HUGE selling point.

It’s not about bigotry, it about stupidity! Legitimizing other people stupidity is never a good idea. It has nothing to do with sexuality or race, and everything to do with a corporation run by idiots. Only idiots would suggest such a thing and trying to understand it only adds credence to their stupidity.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Rosenthorn

 

---

This post has hit the nail on he head. The article was written from a purely WESTERN perspective and as such could be seen by people of another culture as being rather biggoted.

Who are we to tell other countries how they should conduct themselves socially...and like it or not MMO's are a Scoial Network as well as a form of entertainment. The demographics of the game in question were never mentioned. If it is young single people looking to meet others online...then assuring the target group that the "female" they meet every night is actually a "female" could be a HUGE selling point.

With such certainty, the few females actually playing the game will be hounded relentlessly - resulting in no female characters in the game at all, as female players will either play males, or leave the game entirely.

 

There are rules of conduct for being "hounded relentlessly". Besides, I think most males are civilized enough not to do that and if they are not they deserved to be banned.

You put too much faith in the Internet.  The point is that a lot of women playing aren't looking for a date, or hoping to be spammed up by foaming, weeaboo, nerd #69883.  If a female player wants you to know she is a female she'll tell you otherwise it is really none of your damn business who is behind the keyboard.

WOW. does anyone know who is in the first picture lol I was surprised because I didn't think mighty boosh ever became a hit or even played in america. hell half people here in england haven;t heard of it.

So here is the answer.  Make one big company that makes an avatar version of the real world you that you can then import into any MMORPG that is on the market and use it there.  Then you will be the verified YOU that you really are and you can't possibly trick anyone into believing you are really an Elf, Orc, male, female, cat, toad or vampiric lobster of death.  You will get to play as YOU and know that anyone else you meet is what they are portrayed as!  *gasp*  How great to utterly destroy the fabric of roleplaying all in the name of making sure people who are completely sexually insecure feel safe :P

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Stradden

I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.

 

You can't counter feminist hysteria with logical arguments.

 

Oh lord... You are SO going to get Pwned for that

But nice troll...

Originally posted by CayneJobb

That is so wrong. I think it just highlights how sick and damaged Chinese society really is.

I hate to point this out, but just about *all* human societies have their seriously warped and demented aspects...

Originally posted by razerblade29

Originally posted by Terranah

Next thing you know they will start asking people who play muscular, athletic good looking characters to provide proof.  I mean...we wouldn't want some ugly person playing an attractive character, or some fat guy playing a muscular toon.  That would be false representation right?  Or some short guy playing a tall toon. 

 

Basically what is going on here are some very, very horny game developers who probably haven't had sex in a very, very long time.  If they are asking for people to send in pictures of their genitals I think they shoud be investigated, ESPECIALLY if the gamers are minors.  Sounds like pediphelia central over there. 

 

 

Well it is China after all

Do you realize that a lot of child prostitution rings are run out of the US? These kids, especially females, are either kidnapped or sold and then smuggled into the US to fuel prostitution ring on the North American continent.

 If I may point out, I don't even think it's the inequality behind it that Jon found sick, it was what they required for proof: webcam appearance. Any feminine guy can dress as a girl, so what proof would they demand? I think he's disgusted by the fact that they may require a shot of sexual organs as evidence for gender. On top of that, any guy can ask his sister or girlfriend to fill in as their "proof" rendering the entire system pointless for practical purposes. And since only females are required to do this, the real motive behind this system should be critically questioned.

Originally posted by mxmissile

I'd think about going back to WoW if Blizzard implemented this.

Really? Men creating female characters makes you that uncomfortable? This is not Blizzard's issue, it's yours.

Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses.

I can't imagine such levels of sexual insecurity *shudders*

It must make your life really tough.  The point of most MMOs is some time to escape and have fun it is not a dating service.  What race, gender, religion or any other facet of who someone is in reality has absolutely nothing to do with what character they choose to play, period.

They could just implement a policy that the first toon you make is what your gender will be for the lifetime of the account.

I think even male players who do enjoy playing female toons would still like to play thier own gender once in awhile.

It would kinda guide people into a real choice (ie: sex change)Rather hard to undo a gender change.

Just somthing to think about...

Being a Chinese female who games and has lived in China for 10+ year, there are a few things I'd like to point out.

1. In traditional Asian societies, women and children are regarded as having less social importance than men. This was true even for early US history when women and slaves counted as 3/5 of a white male. While China is gradually changing this particular stigma of women, it doesn't change the fact in many areas (especially rural areas, where education is limited), women are still viewed as property. It's very probably that you could be forced to prove your gender, if that stigma is strong enough to inhibit you to act submissively.

2. Each society has its own warped perceptions. China has 3000+ years of history of imperial rule. Even as Mao liberated China from the Japanese and later the Nationalists, he wanted China to be ruled by the laborers, the foundation of the country. However, because of his brilliant military strategies that freed China from foreign oppressors, the people put on a pedestal and willingly gave him political power. On the one hand, the masses gave away power to the government, and on the other hand, the government liked power and would not relent it. With 1.4 billion people, China will continue to keep a relatively tight reign on its people so that there would not be mass chaos.

3. The verification of gender is a business policy. The article gave no indication as to how the Chinese government reacted to this policy. Private business is very sketchy in China, because China is not yet a state of law. There are too many human factors involved, so much so that one day your business may be approved for something and the next it could be taken away. If this policy has the backings of the government, then it would be relatively easy to enforce. No matter what China lacks, it certainly does not lack people or in other words, cheap labor. A system of monitoring could be easily set up.

4. China has long since been operating under Communism, whether you view as a form of government or a economic practice. The country has prospered from limited capitalism. Its people are enjoying greater freedoms, specifically -  the pursuit of happiness through personal wealth. There is the understanding that political ideology and spiritual or religious pursuit are done in the privacy of one's home, without disrupting the public. Without much support for public growth of morality through religious or philosophical doctrine, China is spiraling down the ugly path of materialism without ethics.

The Western market has nothing to fear about a gender verification on gaming servers here. Quite simply, there is no cultural support for such a blatant breach of privacy.

There also isn't a need for reading too much into what type of avatar a player chooses. Games are designed with entertainment in mind. It should be fairly obvious that a character will be created for either maximum kill effect or to be visually pleasing. There is nothing wrong with either style of choosing an avatar. It's when people reading too deep into something that is designed to liberate us from reality that reality creeps back into the games.

Originally posted by Mequellios

 If I may point out, I don't even think it's the inequality behind it that Jon found sick, it was what they required for proof: webcam appearance. Any feminine guy can dress as a girl, so what proof would they demand? I think he's disgusted by the fact that they may require a shot of sexual organs as evidence for gender. On top of that, any guy can ask his sister or girlfriend to fill in as their "proof" rendering the entire system pointless for practical purposes. And since only females are required to do this, the real motive behind this system should be critically questioned.

Your guessing what they "require"

All i see in this thread is alot of people making half-arsed guesses and fueling the "flame-bait" with "they require XXX shots" crap.

As a couple of the more sensible posters have pointed out there is a massive difference in culture here. The male - female ratio's over there count for alot too. They obviously have thier reasons, possible just for media attention, possible they want to "assure" male gamers they are infact talking to females. Maby the gaming culture there is more about online social networking / dating than just playing a game. I personally dont know but I do know better than to post trash about them requiring *XXX shots* etc without actually having something to back up those accusation. (The OP never said XXX but he does infur it within his article)

Maby the article writer should have gotten a little more information before feeding the community with theorys and speculation.

Its possible this is just a media scam to gain some headline space, its also possible they have what they feel are good reasons. From a western view-point sure we view it all as abit strange and wierd, then again I view eating lion's testicles the same way too .. dont mean that they share the same view-point.

People need to be a little more tolerant of other cultures views, if your going the write about them at least do-so in an informed manner.

As an FYI, I'm male and occasionally play female avatars. My wife also plays along side me with my 24year old son and 78 year old mother-in-law. I dont "pretend" to be a girl IRL and am open about being a male player. Have yet to come across anyone who had a problem with it since I am open about being a "guy" On the other hand I can understand why people would be upset to be taken in by a guy trying to pass themselves off as a female, that is a little strange IMO although since I am not cruising for a piece of ass online it really does not impact me. Oh and yes, my wife has laughed at people who give her the 'Vent or your not a girl" line and delights in proving them wrong :p

The ol' insecurity counter. The only better one is the "you just don't have an open mind". I didn't say it was insane behavior, just outside what society deems as the norm. To ignore this doesn't make you better or more enlightened than the rest of us.

For those that think it's wrong/gay for a man to create a female character.....

You must think the men who created the female character Lara Croft are gay/wrong.

You must think Tolkein was wrong/gay for his female characters he created.

In fact, every author who is a man who has ever created a female character must be gay. They were at least wrong to do so.

I bet in fact there are very few male authors you will read due to the fact that 99% have created a female character.

_______________________________________________

The above problem is so ludicrous, as stated a 1000 times before; if there is a problem with men who create female characters, the problem lies with you, not the creator.

Grow up children.

Originally posted by BisWinter

Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses.

I'm guessing your young and still sexually insecure.

If you are secure in your sexuality then playing a "game" as a female has no impact on you at all. When you grow alittle you'll realize that playing a game as an avatar of the opposite sex really is'ent a big deal. Its the same when you watch a movie or read a book and can relate to the female (or male) characters ..

Now playing as a female and trying to convince other gamers that you ARE female in RL is kinda odd to me and would scream of gender insecurity (Or scamer)

I guess the point I am trying to make is the theres a differance between playing an avatar of the opposite sex and trying to portray yourself as being the opposite sex. One is playing a game, the other is playing with people.

Originally posted by BisWinter

Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses.

Ok if gaming examples don't work for you.....

Is it creepy for a male author to create a female character for a novel? Once created, they decide what they do, how they look, what they say, exactly as a gamer.

The creepiness only lies with the beholder.

The societal norm is for males to often create female characters, and it has been that way since men began writing.

I am an amateur author. I like to create female characters in mmo's to 'test' them out and gain inspiration for my stories, develop how she interacts with others and see how others react to that particular 'character'; I believe this is normal human behavior.

When I play a game, I play a character, not myself, and I believe it is much creepier to believe you ARE the character rather than controlling one you've created.

Get ahold of your own emotions before projecting 'creepiness' on others - cuz sentiments  like yours make me shiver.

Originally posted by Mequellios

 If I may point out, I don't even think it's the inequality behind it that Jon found sick, it was what they required for proof: webcam appearance. Any feminine guy can dress as a girl, so what proof would they demand? I think he's disgusted by the fact that they may require a shot of sexual organs as evidence for gender. On top of that, any guy can ask his sister or girlfriend to fill in as their "proof" rendering the entire system pointless for practical purposes. And since only females are required to do this, the real motive behind this system should be critically questioned.

No, I pretty much found the whole situation absurd. From the inequality to the absolute insanity of trying to actually enforce this kind of policy.

It's silly is all. That was the point.

Second Life tried some identity verification system for age, but I'm not sure how well that worked for them.  I think most people probably understand the reason why, and also that really if they can do it for age.. they could probably run something like that for gender.

Honestly I kind of chuckled a little inside at the outrage.  In 12+ years of being on the internet, I've sat and watched the strict code of anonymity slowly change into a word of social networks and tweets.  It seems to me that MMO communities have been declining in that same period, from friendly and helpful, into harsh and immature.  I attribute this to the multiple layers of anonymity that gamers still want to hind behind, being accountable only to the TOS, and distancing the idea of being true to yourself and others.   Now I don't like the idea of forcing someone to play their gender in a game, but I'm not threatened by breaking down a little bit of that anonymity.   Certainly the 'RPG' side of the MMOs would lose a little, and I acknowledge that.

Originally posted by djFEVA

Being a Chinese female who games and has lived in China for 10+ year, there are a few things I'd like to point out.

1. In traditional Asian societies, women and children are regarded as having less social importance than men. This was true even for early US history when women and slaves counted as 3/5 of a white male. While China is gradually changing this particular stigma of women, it doesn't change the fact in many areas (especially rural areas, where education is limited), women are still viewed as property. It's very probably that you could be forced to prove your gender, if that stigma is strong enough to inhibit you to act submissively.

2. Each society has its own warped perceptions. China has 3000+ years of history of imperial rule. Even as Mao liberated China from the Japanese and later the Nationalists, he wanted China to be ruled by the laborers, the foundation of the country. However, because of his brilliant military strategies that freed China from foreign oppressors, the people put on a pedestal and willingly gave him political power. On the one hand, the masses gave away power to the government, and on the other hand, the government liked power and would not relent it. With 1.4 billion people, China will continue to keep a relatively tight reign on its people so that there would not be mass chaos.

3. The verification of gender is a business policy. The article gave no indication as to how the Chinese government reacted to this policy. Private business is very sketchy in China, because China is not yet a state of law. There are too many human factors involved, so much so that one day your business may be approved for something and the next it could be taken away. If this policy has the backings of the government, then it would be relatively easy to enforce. No matter what China lacks, it certainly does not lack people or in other words, cheap labor. A system of monitoring could be easily set up.

4. China has long since been operating under Communism, whether you view as a form of government or a economic practice. The country has prospered from limited capitalism. Its people are enjoying greater freedoms, specifically -  the pursuit of happiness through personal wealth. There is the understanding that political ideology and spiritual or religious pursuit are done in the privacy of one's home, without disrupting the public. Without much support for public growth of morality through religious or philosophical doctrine, China is spiraling down the ugly path of materialism without ethics.

The Western market has nothing to fear about a gender verification on gaming servers here. Quite simply, there is no cultural support for such a blatant breach of privacy.

There also isn't a need for reading too much into what type of avatar a player chooses. Games are designed with entertainment in mind. It should be fairly obvious that a character will be created for either maximum kill effect or to be visually pleasing. There is nothing wrong with either style of choosing an avatar. It's when people reading too deep into something that is designed to liberate us from reality that reality creeps back into the games.

Great post that actually has input from someone "In the know" so to speak.

So tell us, Is the MMORPG sub-culture in China used more for gaming or more for social networking?

As other posters have mentioned the male > female ratio in China is sqewed somewhat due to cutural perspective, (I wont get into this aspect,  just accept that it is since I dont want to open a debate about this) so would a male, trying to pass themselves off as a female, open a network of "scams" to desperate male gamers seeking a life mate? If that is the case would some method of "authenticating" that female avatars are infact female hold some weight? (Either from a legal - to prevent scammers, or a publicity - Attracting more male gamers, view point?)

I'd appreciate your input in this since you hold somewhat unique view in relation to most posters on these forums.

The only people defending this kind of garbage are the same people that will probably end up on the cover of your news papers for being a pedo.  Drooling retards that most likely got their chubby ruined by a female avatar that started typing "sup bro."  Check it nerds, you're better off meeting a woman in real life.  MMOs are still video games not dating services.