Originally posted by Caleveira

1. No its not. Analogy is considered legitimate discourse, and i havent seen the issue settled in any of the threads discussing it. Ive previously explained why i consider this a good analogy and have yet to see my arguments challenged.

2. You brought up the current figure not the one at launch. By your rationale WOWs ad campaign would be a waste of resources for Blizzard if it didnt impact sub numbers. Yea, im sure multimillion dollar ad campaigns are run by incompetents.

3. I labeled your argument not you. Its your post that made things personal, fanboy.

And for someone who seems to find most analogies flawed you neither addressed the music industry (which kind of was the OPs point) nor the literature and cinema examples i added.

1. Analogy is legitimate discourse when it's not flawed. Yours is, therefore is not legitimate discourse. I will not reply to it, or to those used by the OP as they do not apply to the subject matter and I have no intention of legitimising them. If you are incapable of defining your argument without wrapping it up in a twisted and senseless analogy, then your argument is not worthy of response.

2. I also stated only that WoW was a runaway success before the advertising. Are you debating that point?

3. You just progressed to pedantic flamer.

To all (not only the OP).

The difference lies in the numbers.

There is a difference if you are the most "popular" with a 5% or 10% advantage in numbers.(like the menitoned examples).

WOW has 1800% MORE subscribers than the second most PAID subscriptions in our western world.(EVE).

That's not 5 or 10 or even 20% difference, that's a complete other world and competition.

Hardly seen in ANY industry. Only comparable to Windows on the PC.

Think about it and analyse and make your conclusions, I am not at all surprised btw.

I played the other duds. Just one example:

For those saying PvP is not good in WOW, simply ignore the fact it has the best responsive controls of your avatar in ANY mmorpg.

This resposiveness alone already makes it stand above the competition in Player versus player (control) combat.

The difference (in subs success) is indeed SO big,  it's a complete other ball game.

BS does not outsell other singers by 1800%, let alone she did this 5 years in a row....

Yeah you are making an issue where there isn't one, I've seen mmo players try to point to a games low population to say the game is failing but no one says there game is better because it has more subs, everyone knows if that was the case the only people who could claim to be the best would be Blizzard.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

To all (not only the OP).

The difference lies in the numbers.

There is a difference if you are the moest "popular" with a 5% or 10% advantage in numbers.(like the metnitoned examples).

WOW has 1800% MORE subscribers than the second most PAID subscriptions in our western world.(EVE).

That's not 5 or 10 or even 20% difference, that's a complete other world and competition.

Hardly seen in ANY industry. Only comparable to Windows on the PC.

Think about it and analyse and make your conclusions, I am not at all surprised btw.

I played the other duds. Just one example:

For those saying PvP is not good in WOW, simply ignore the fact it has the best responsive controls of your avatar in ANY mmorpg.

This resposiveness alone already makes it stand above the competition in Player versus player (control) combat.

The difference (in subs success) is indeed SO big,  it's a complete other ball game.

BS does not outsell other singers by 1800%, let alone she did this 5 years in a row....

 

 

This post is rife with personal opinion. Just because you like the combat system, doesn't make it the best.  Personally I think that system is second best to a game in which you have to aim your attacks and in which your spells don't auto track.  However because you and other people like you, like that system more than people who like my preference, does not make it better.  It makes it more popular.

This thread made me laugh a little bit.  While I don't always agree with what Ilvaldyr says most of the time.  I think he nailed it in this thread.

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Caleveira

And junk food outsells healthier choices, come on! WOW advertises in the mainstream media. You mean to tell me MMOs offer the public more variety than the music industry? Or maybe you think Tom Clancy is a better writer than Wislawa Szymborska? How bout Michael Bay vs Gus Van Sant? Yours is nothing but a fanboys argument.

1. The junk food analogy is utterly flawed. Most analogies are.

2. WoW was a runaway success before ever advertising in the mainstream media.

3. Labelling me a fanboy because I disagree with your opinion makes you a troll.

 

1. No its not. Analogy is considered legitimate discourse, and i havent seen the issue settled in any of the threads discussing it. Ive previously explained why i consider this a good analogy and have yet to see my arguments challenged.

2. You brought up the current figure not the one at launch. By your rationale WOWs ad campaign would be a waste of resources for Blizzard if it didnt impact sub numbers. Yea, im sure multimillion dollar ad campaigns are run by incompetents.

3. I labeled your argument not you. Its your post that made things personal, fanboy.

And for someone who seems to find most analogies flawed you neither addressed the music industry (which kind of was the OPs point) nor the literature and cinema examples i added.

Junk food is popular because it is cheap and convinient. WoW is neither cheap nor convinient, and therefore is not popular for the same reason junkfood is.

You failed anology is not legitimate discourse, it's appeal to ridicule, your insulting another person by implying that he lacks taste and sofistication. Nothing more.

The point the OP is saying is simply put that subscription is not a valid measure of goodness, there are many reasons including:

1. More publicity generallly pulls more players (Aion definately used this in a lot of media, note that NCsoft used similar process for Tabula Rasa, and Age of Conan likewise, notice last two dropped rapidly after release but were high initially)

2. Fanbase is already present (eg.warcraft already had fanbase, likewise for Dungeons and dragons (fell dramatically), Star Wars, and Star trek may be similar)

3. If the above two work then a large base population increases more rapidly (compare Eve, and WoW, both been around similar time but WoW is way more primarily because it had a large fanbase to begin with, Eve is generally rated the better game).

4. Fantasy games generally attract more players (fantasy is simply more predictable than the variation of sci-fi)

 5. Games with higher subscribers are rated for lower ages (adults play any rating games, but children are more restricted, thereby reducing possible subscribers for games like AoC and increasing for games like WoW)

There are probably more reasons for subscriptions being higher, but these are the ones that have nothing to do with how good the game is, in fact for some games I mention the inital amount was high and then dropped for reasons to do with bugs, and not the game itself.

By the way: Top 10 rated games on MMORPG that have been released (your votes), note that almost half are sci-fi, and a few have low amount of subscribers.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Caleveira

1. No its not. Analogy is considered legitimate discourse, and i havent seen the issue settled in any of the threads discussing it. Ive previously explained why i consider this a good analogy and have yet to see my arguments challenged.

2. You brought up the current figure not the one at launch. By your rationale WOWs ad campaign would be a waste of resources for Blizzard if it didnt impact sub numbers. Yea, im sure multimillion dollar ad campaigns are run by incompetents.

3. I labeled your argument not you. Its your post that made things personal, fanboy.

And for someone who seems to find most analogies flawed you neither addressed the music industry (which kind of was the OPs point) nor the literature and cinema examples i added.

1. Analogy is legitimate discourse when it's not flawed. Yours is, therefore is not legitimate discourse. I will not reply to it, or to those used by the OP as they do not apply to the subject matter and I have no intention of legitimising them. If you are incapable of defining your argument without wrapping it up in a twisted and senseless analogy, then your argument is not worthy of response.

2. I also stated only that WoW was a runaway success before the advertising. Are you debating that point?

3. You just progressed to pedantic flamer.

1. Claiming the other party in a discussion to be just plain wrong, and using your own claim as argument is not even rational. You will not reply to my argument? Why are you even bothering to answer at all then? Just to flame? Whos being pedantic here? Let me spell it out for you; That a product outsells another does not imply better quality. No, the analogy is neither twisted nor senseless.

2. No, i merely stated that WOWs current numbers benefit from its ads. Are you debating that?

3. Youve done nothing but add insult to injury, what are your arguments if not outright disqualifications. Can you make a point in anything but insulting terms or did the fanboy thing hit too close to home? Ive seen nothing from you but unintelligent judgemental remarks. So lets get on with it and move on right to the cliches. GO BACK TO WOW.

Originally posted by NotNiceDino

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Caleveira

And junk food outsells healthier choices, come on! WOW advertises in the mainstream media. You mean to tell me MMOs offer the public more variety than the music industry? Or maybe you think Tom Clancy is a better writer than Wislawa Szymborska? How bout Michael Bay vs Gus Van Sant? Yours is nothing but a fanboys argument.

1. The junk food analogy is utterly flawed. Most analogies are.

2. WoW was a runaway success before ever advertising in the mainstream media.

3. Labelling me a fanboy because I disagree with your opinion makes you a troll.

 

1. No its not. Analogy is considered legitimate discourse, and i havent seen the issue settled in any of the threads discussing it. Ive previously explained why i consider this a good analogy and have yet to see my arguments challenged.

2. You brought up the current figure not the one at launch. By your rationale WOWs ad campaign would be a waste of resources for Blizzard if it didnt impact sub numbers. Yea, im sure multimillion dollar ad campaigns are run by incompetents.

3. I labeled your argument not you. Its your post that made things personal, fanboy.

And for someone who seems to find most analogies flawed you neither addressed the music industry (which kind of was the OPs point) nor the literature and cinema examples i added.

 

Junk food is popular because it is cheap and convinient. WoW is neither cheap nor convinient, and therefore is not popular for the same reason junkfood is.

You failed anology is not legitimate discourse, it's appeal to ridicule, your insulting another person by implying that he lacks taste and sofistication. Nothing more.

WoW is cheap.  Cheap thrills, cheap spills.  Everyone is a winner.  A place to goto for a quick fix.  Therefore the analogy is valid and your argument null.

Edit:  Reskinned mobs?  Cheap.  Instead of more dungeons you get the same dungeons but harder.  WoW is a joke and so are the people who thinks it's quality.

Popularity does not equal Quality? True. Popularity only proves that it is in fact, Quality (or utter shit). What makes a quality game is the many factors that affect various features.

(Note, this post is not directed to OP but to the general readers)
To use the OP's analogy, if the best-seller album in 1997 was the Spice Girls, it's because they had talent and could appeal to the mass. Like it or not, Spice Girl = Quality. That's where you use the "popularity" arguement. For so many people to buy their albums, making in the best-seller in 1997, saying that Spice Girls were utter shit probably means you should leave your house a bit .

Saying WoW is the greatest game of all time? Now this is an opinion. But to say that WoW is one of the most successful and popular MMORPG is a fact. One could argue that this fact may also represent WoW as the greatest game of all time and it's completly true. We can simply say that WoW is the best-seller as of now. It's hardly  "argueable" unless there was another very succesful game with a similar popularity OR if we had a quote on how many people play Themepark versus how many people play Sandbox and calculate the percentage based on the amount of players in each games. This way would balance the popularity of games that appeals to a different niche (though it is almost impossible to do).

Now, got to look at it the other way, popularity may also be misleading. Good exemple is Transformer 1 vs Transformer 2. T1 was extremely popular while T2 received several bad reviews but, T2 being a sequel, most people would think it should be as great as T1 or even better. In this case, popularity was pretty high but the fact that many were disappointed by T2 remains. In other words, it technically fail to enter in the "Quality" category. In the case of MMOs though, bad launch may be misleading so you have no choice but to wait 1 year or 2 to calculate the quality (this includes all games that had bad launch such as WoW, DarkFall and many more)

---

To sum everything up, if Spice Girl's CD sucked, in no way would their CD be best-seller and that is a fact. Wether you agree to this or not,  is an opinion.

Originally posted by NotNiceDino

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Caleveira

And junk food outsells healthier choices, come on! WOW advertises in the mainstream media. You mean to tell me MMOs offer the public more variety than the music industry? Or maybe you think Tom Clancy is a better writer than Wislawa Szymborska? How bout Michael Bay vs Gus Van Sant? Yours is nothing but a fanboys argument.

1. The junk food analogy is utterly flawed. Most analogies are.

2. WoW was a runaway success before ever advertising in the mainstream media.

3. Labelling me a fanboy because I disagree with your opinion makes you a troll.

 

1. No its not. Analogy is considered legitimate discourse, and i havent seen the issue settled in any of the threads discussing it. Ive previously explained why i consider this a good analogy and have yet to see my arguments challenged.

2. You brought up the current figure not the one at launch. By your rationale WOWs ad campaign would be a waste of resources for Blizzard if it didnt impact sub numbers. Yea, im sure multimillion dollar ad campaigns are run by incompetents.

3. I labeled your argument not you. Its your post that made things personal, fanboy.

And for someone who seems to find most analogies flawed you neither addressed the music industry (which kind of was the OPs point) nor the literature and cinema examples i added.

 

Junk food is popular because it is cheap and convinient. WoW is neither cheap nor convinient, and therefore is not popular for the same reason junkfood is.

You failed anology is not legitimate discourse, it's appeal to ridicule, your insulting another person by implying that he lacks taste and sofistication. Nothing more.

WOW may not be cheaper than other games but is more accesible (better known to people outside of gaming circles) and it is convenient in the sense that not only are barriers to entry low but its difficulty level is unchallenging.
 

Yes, the analogy is meant to imply lack of taste and sofistication on WOWs subscribers but it isnt meant as insult but as statement. Your reading more into it obviously shows where you stand on this issue, wanna flame?

Originally posted by Ruyn

WoW is cheap.  Cheap thrills, cheap spills.  Everyone is a winner.  A place to goto for a quick fix.  Therefore the analogy is valid and your argument null.

Are you really that stupid? Cheap, as in literally costs less money. As in a McDonalds extra value meal cost $5-10 and that's why they're popular. WoW, regardless of what anyone thinks of the game itself, is at the high end of the cost scale, therefore it can not be said that WoW is popular like McDonalds is popular. My arguement isn't just vaild, it's mathmatically irrefutable, which makes you about the worst troll ever. And that's saying something.

Originally posted by hogscraper

To all the people who argue which game is greatest, it seems like people's first response is to say my game is the greatest because we have x number of subs. For now and forever, please realize that to make the claim that numbers of people who like your game make it great is the same argument that these bands are the greatest bands of all time. 

The best-selling album of 1997 was Spice, by Spice Girls

The best-selling album of 1998 was Titanic Soundtrack

The best selling album of 1999 was Millennium, by Backstreet Boys 

The best-selling album of 2000 was No Strings Attached, by *NSYNC

The best-selling album of 2005 was The Emancipation of Mimi, by Mariah Carey

The best-selling album of 2006 was High School Musical Soundtrack

The Backstreet Boys album above is also the 9th highest grossing album of all times in world sales.  To all the people who think that simply being the lowest common denominator somehow makes your game/music/whatever the best, it simply means that in reality, its simply average. And in being AVERAGE it appeals to the most people. It also means that the only thing that will ever top it is a game that's even more watered down and average. 

american statistis,´nuff said

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by NotNiceDino

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Caleveira

And junk food outsells healthier choices, come on! WOW advertises in the mainstream media. You mean to tell me MMOs offer the public more variety than the music industry? Or maybe you think Tom Clancy is a better writer than Wislawa Szymborska? How bout Michael Bay vs Gus Van Sant? Yours is nothing but a fanboys argument.

1. The junk food analogy is utterly flawed. Most analogies are.

2. WoW was a runaway success before ever advertising in the mainstream media.

3. Labelling me a fanboy because I disagree with your opinion makes you a troll.

 

1. No its not. Analogy is considered legitimate discourse, and i havent seen the issue settled in any of the threads discussing it. Ive previously explained why i consider this a good analogy and have yet to see my arguments challenged.

2. You brought up the current figure not the one at launch. By your rationale WOWs ad campaign would be a waste of resources for Blizzard if it didnt impact sub numbers. Yea, im sure multimillion dollar ad campaigns are run by incompetents.

3. I labeled your argument not you. Its your post that made things personal, fanboy.

And for someone who seems to find most analogies flawed you neither addressed the music industry (which kind of was the OPs point) nor the literature and cinema examples i added.

 

Junk food is popular because it is cheap and convinient. WoW is neither cheap nor convinient, and therefore is not popular for the same reason junkfood is.

You failed anology is not legitimate discourse, it's appeal to ridicule, your insulting another person by implying that he lacks taste and sofistication. Nothing more.

WOW may not be cheaper than other games but is more accesible (better known to people outside of gaming circles) and it is convenient in the sense that not only are barriers to entry low but its difficulty level is unchallenging.
 

Yes, the analogy is meant to imply lack of taste and sofistication on WOWs subscribers but it isnt meant as insult but as statement. Your reading more into it obviously shows where you stand on this issue, wanna flame?

What? "isn't meant as insult but as statement." Are you you serious? That's just like saying, "That's not a threat it's a promise!"

Implying a lack of taste and sofistication is by definition insult. As is, "Your reading more into it obviosuly show where you stand on this issue (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) wanna flame?"

And what exactly are "people outside of gaming circles" anyway? This is something I never got about wannabe elite crowd on this board. I've been playing MMOs continuously since UO. Largely with the same group of people. I've played everything that isn't F2P because I wasn't born yesterday, and nothing is Free. Hell to this day except for when I'm hardcore into something ineither game, I've got EvE and WoW open at the same time and tab back and forth. So tell me smart guy, where exactly is that you think I stand?

It's also not an argument I've seen used often, I have seen people claim a game is going to fail due to lack of subs but hardly the argument that because a game is popular it is the best.  Now giving the op some credit perhaps he was in a debate about a game maybe WOW and he was telling people what he thought was wrong with it maybe people then told him that since it is highly popular it is the best *shrugs* either way this is a wasted post because he stated rather specifically that he is talking about one extreme even.

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Popularity does not equal Quality? True. Popularity only proves that it is in fact, Quality (or utter shit). What makes a quality game is the many factors that affect various features.

(Note, this post is not directed to OP but to the general readers)
To use the OP's analogy, if the best-seller album in 1997 was the Spice Girls, it's because they had talent and could appeal to the mass. Like it or not, Spice Girl = Quality. That's where you use the "popularity" arguement. For so many people to buy their albums, making in the best-seller in 1997, saying that Spice Girls were utter shit probably means you should leave your house a bit .

Saying WoW is the greatest game of all time? Now this is an opinion. But to say that WoW is one of the most successful and popular MMORPG is a fact. One could argue that this fact may also represent WoW as the greatest game of all time and it's completly true. We can simply say that WoW is the best-seller as of now. It's hardly  "argueable" unless there was another very succesful game with a similar popularity OR if we had a quote on how many people play Themepark versus how many people play Sandbox and calculate the percentage based on the amount of players in each games. This way would balance the popularity of games that appeals to a different niche (though it is almost impossible to do).

Now, got to look at it the other way, popularity may also be misleading. Good exemple is Transformer 1 vs Transformer 2. T1 was extremely popular while T2 received several bad reviews but, T2 being a sequel, most people would think it should be as great as T1 or even better. In this case, popularity was pretty high but the fact that many were disappointed by T2 remains. In other words, it technically fail to enter in the "Quality" category. In the case of MMOs though, bad launch may be misleading so you have no choice but to wait 1 year or 2 to calculate the quality (this includes all games that had bad launch such as WoW, DarkFall and many more)

---

To sum everything up, if Spice Girl's CD sucked, in no way would their CD be best-seller and that is a fact. Wether you agree to this or not,  is an opinion.

The only quality to be found on the spice girls work is on the side of producers/sound engineers and the marketing people.

Was the songwriting any good? No, it was formulaic. Quality singing? No, the voices are mostly flat and heavily synthetized. Lyrics, imagery? No, absolutely nothing there. This isnt about me liking indie music but about being objective. Pop artists like Madona or even Britney posses undeniable talent regardless of wether you like them or not. The Spice Girls were only hot chicks who relied on a fetichist representation of themselves. The act was out at a time were things like the Macarena had become the norm and silly uncomplicated music had become popular as a reaction to the prevalence of the depressive "grunge" style of punk rock dominant a few years earlier. A novelty act that was unable to be followed by further success, the spice girls most lasting legacy was Victoria Adams marriage to footballer David Beckham.

Will they be remembered? No more than other "success" stories like MC Hammer. Your best bet to see anything about them now would be to catch one of those VH1 camp retrospectives... Yes, the Spice Girls sucked. And yes way, they were number one. No one with musical taste or education would dare call their act a quality work, except for Simon Cowell fanboys who think success is a more important part of music than art is...

Originally posted by NotNiceDino

Originally posted by Ruyn

WoW is cheap.  Cheap thrills, cheap spills.  Everyone is a winner.  A place to goto for a quick fix.  Therefore the analogy is valid and your argument null.

Are you really that stupid? Cheap, as in literally costs less money. As in a McDonalds extra value meal cost $5-10 and that's why they're popular. WoW, regardless of what anyone thinks of the game itself, is at the high end of the cost scale, therefore it can not be said that WoW is popular like McDonalds is popular. My arguement isn't just vaild, it's mathmatically irrefutable, which makes you about the worst troll ever. And that's saying something.

You misunderstand the analogy.  The fastfood analogy is not meaning cheap as in monetary value but from a quality standpoint.  The better analogy would be Wal-Mart.  A lot of people shop at Wal-Mart because it the price is right and it CATERS TO EVERYBODY, except of course the people who look for a quality product or quality service.  WoW is the Wal-Mart of MMO's.

Originally posted by Caleveira

The only quality to be found on the spice girls work is on the side of producers/sound engineers and the marketing people.

Was the songwriting any good? No, it was formulaic. Quality singing? No, the voices are mostly flat and heavily synthetized. Lyrics, imagery? No, absolutely nothing there. This isnt about me liking indie music but about being objective. Pop artists like Madona or even Britney posses undeniable talent regardless of wether you like them or not. The Spice Girls were only hot chicks who relied on a fetichist representation of themselves. The act was out at a time were things like the Macarena had become popular and silly uncomplicated music had become popular as a reaction to the prevalence of the depressive "grunge" style of punk rock popular a few years earlier. A novelty act that was unable to be followed by further success, the spice girls most lasting legacy was Victoria Adams marriage to footballer David Beckham.

Will they be remembered? No more than other "success" stories like MC Hammer. Your best bet to see anything about them now would be to catch one of those VH1 camp retrospectives... Yes, the Spice Girls sucked. And yes way, they were number one. No one with musical taste or education would dare call their act a quality work, except for Simon Cowell fanboys who think success is a more important part of music than art is...

What you just wrote here is an opinion. It's today's singers voices who are heavily synthetized. Most have lyrics that barely make any sense either. It was way harder back in the 1990-2000 to modify sounds like it is today. If you see any lives videos (youtube) you'll notice a major difference. For instance, LadyGaga (who is also apparently popular even though I strongly believe she's horrible) has a manly voice while on her CDs or videos, she has a much more feminine voice. And this is just one exemple amongst others.

Will they be remembered? Of course. Last year the Backstreet Boys made a quick comeback and the horde of fan was so freaking large. The momentum those singers had many years ago remains(may it be Spice Girl, Backstreet Boys). They also have influenced many of today's singers.

Let me use UO as an exemple. Very popular back  then, still has a very strong momentum in the MMORPG community. Most people don't play UO anymore but the memories remains.

As for what is art? I highly doubt you can talk about what is art when even artist can't seem to narrow down on the definition (see the artist who signed several toilet seats and sold them as a way to protest against one of the definition which said "Art is everything created and signed by an artist")

Originally posted by Caleveira 

1. Claiming the other party in a discussion to be just plain wrong, and using your own claim as argument is not even rational. You will not reply to my argument? Why are you even bothering to answer at all then? Just to flame? Whos being pedantic here? Let me spell it out for you; That a product outsells another does not imply better quality. No, the analogy is neither twisted nor senseless.

2. No, i merely stated that WOWs current numbers benefit from its ads. Are you debating that?

3. Youve done nothing but add insult to injury, what are your arguments if not outright disqualifications. Can you make a point in anything but insulting terms or did the fanboy thing hit too close to home? Ive seen nothing from you but unintelligent judgemental remarks. So lets get on with it and move on right to the cliches. GO BACK TO WOW.

1. Interesting argument. I'm pedantic for responding to your pedantry, does that somehow absolve you from the original pedantry? .. I highlighted why your argument is wrong. I didn't compare anything. My viewpoint has always been that comparisons are pointless because they are informed by subjective bias. My argument in this thread is that, if 6 million people are willing to continually pay a subscription fee for a game, then that is a good indication of "quality".

2. Not at all, but that was never up for debate.

3. As outlined in the above two points, and in keeping with your devolution to childlike insults and silly flames: L2Read noob.

Originally posted by NotNiceDino

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by NotNiceDino

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Caleveira

And junk food outsells healthier choices, come on! WOW advertises in the mainstream media. You mean to tell me MMOs offer the public more variety than the music industry? Or maybe you think Tom Clancy is a better writer than Wislawa Szymborska? How bout Michael Bay vs Gus Van Sant? Yours is nothing but a fanboys argument.

1. The junk food analogy is utterly flawed. Most analogies are.

2. WoW was a runaway success before ever advertising in the mainstream media.

3. Labelling me a fanboy because I disagree with your opinion makes you a troll.

 

1. No its not. Analogy is considered legitimate discourse, and i havent seen the issue settled in any of the threads discussing it. Ive previously explained why i consider this a good analogy and have yet to see my arguments challenged.

2. You brought up the current figure not the one at launch. By your rationale WOWs ad campaign would be a waste of resources for Blizzard if it didnt impact sub numbers. Yea, im sure multimillion dollar ad campaigns are run by incompetents.

3. I labeled your argument not you. Its your post that made things personal, fanboy.

And for someone who seems to find most analogies flawed you neither addressed the music industry (which kind of was the OPs point) nor the literature and cinema examples i added.

 

Junk food is popular because it is cheap and convinient. WoW is neither cheap nor convinient, and therefore is not popular for the same reason junkfood is.

You failed anology is not legitimate discourse, it's appeal to ridicule, your insulting another person by implying that he lacks taste and sofistication. Nothing more.

WOW may not be cheaper than other games but is more accesible (better known to people outside of gaming circles) and it is convenient in the sense that not only are barriers to entry low but its difficulty level is unchallenging.
 

Yes, the analogy is meant to imply lack of taste and sofistication on WOWs subscribers but it isnt meant as insult but as statement. Your reading more into it obviously shows where you stand on this issue, wanna flame?

 

What? "isn't meant as insult but as statement." Are you you serious? That's just like saying, "That's not a threat it's a promise!"

Implying a lack of taste and sofistication is by definition insult. As is, "Your reading more into it obviosuly show where you stand on this issue (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) wanna flame?"

And what exactly are "people outside of gaming circles" anyway? This is something I never got about wannabe elite crowd on this board. I've been playing MMOs continuously since UO. Largely with the same group of people. I've played everything that isn't F2P because I wasn't born yesterday, and nothing is Free. Hell to this day except for when I'm hardcore into something ineither game, I've got EvE and WoW open at the same time and tab back and forth. So tell me smart guy, where exactly is that you think I stand?

On the side of apparently you do want to flame. Get over yourself, yea, its not an analogy a WOW subscriber would use but its nonetheless useful for some of us. And gaming circles is the people who visit sites like this, most of my friends arent even aware of any game thats come out since Rock Band. But they very likely have seen a WOW ad somewhere... And ive never refered to myself as anything but a casual gamer, youre the one volunteering a resume to prove youre a 1337 gamer. ZOMG! Im so impressed, youre a UO vet and you play WOW and EVE at the same time...

This is something i never got about wannabe elite crowd on this board, why do you feel you have to jump everytime someone says something you disagree with? I clearly stated i thought the OP was doing nothing but baiting people but got suck right into the argument because WOW fanboys seem to somehow think their game being the best seller makes it the best. Do you think people in college faculties take seriously anyone who reads best selling books?

Originally posted by Ruyn

Originally posted by NotNiceDino

Originally posted by Ruyn

WoW is cheap.  Cheap thrills, cheap spills.  Everyone is a winner.  A place to goto for a quick fix.  Therefore the analogy is valid and your argument null.

Are you really that stupid? Cheap, as in literally costs less money. As in a McDonalds extra value meal cost $5-10 and that's why they're popular. WoW, regardless of what anyone thinks of the game itself, is at the high end of the cost scale, therefore it can not be said that WoW is popular like McDonalds is popular. My arguement isn't just vaild, it's mathmatically irrefutable, which makes you about the worst troll ever. And that's saying something.

 

You misunderstand the analogy.  The fastfood analogy is not meaning cheap as in monetary value but from a quality standpoint.  The better analogy would be Wal-Mart.  A lot of people shop at Wal-Mart because it the price is right and it CATERS TO EVERYBODY, except of course the people who look for a quality product or quality service.  WoW is the Wal-Mart of MMO's.

Ok, so what's wrong with Wal-Mart? I shop there. Sure, I prefer more specilized store for certain things... for example, I refuse to buy meat and produce there, but for the prepackaged stuff the price is better. Sure there's a local grocery store which I like a lot, the have good meats, local vegatables, and the local milk in glass bottles I really like... but the Campbells Soup and Quaker Oatmeal Sqaures are cheaper at Wal-Mart, and while I'm there I can buy new pair of the Dickie's Rip-Stop pants I like to wear to work, see if they have any good deals on DVDs and buy a toy for me kid.

Originally posted by Caleveira

Do you think people in college faculties take seriously anyone who reads best selling books?

 

Um... yes? Why Wouldn't they? You mean people that ONLY read best selling books? Well then no, of course not... but that's not a reasonable assumption is it?

The assumption that somone who read Plato couldn't possibly enjoy Harry Potter. Or that someone who eats steak a Ruth's Chris couldn't enjoy a Big Mac. Or somone who buys Dickies Work pants at Wal-Mart doesn't appriciate the wine selection at Trader Joes. Or that somone who enjoys Linkin Park never listened to Tiamat.

The clearly ridiculous assumption that all of these Spice Girls/McDonalds are base on...

Originally posted by NotNiceDino

Originally posted by Caleveira

Do you think people in college faculties take seriously anyone who reads best selling books?

 

 

Um... yes? Why Wouldn't they? You mean people that ONLY read best selling books? Well then no, of course not... but that's not a reasonable assumption is it?

The assumption that somone who read Plato couldn't possibly enjoy Harry Potter. Or that someone who eats steak a Ruth's Chris couldn't enjoy a Big Mac. Or somone who buys Dickies Work pants at Wal-Mart doesn't appriciate the wine selection at Trader Joes. Or that somone who enjoys Linkin Park never listened to Tiamat.

The clearly ridiculous assumption that all of these Spice Girls/McDonalds are base on...

I think its safe to say the connotation i implied was someone who mostly read best sellers...

Kinda like someone who regularly subscribes to a MMO, figure it out for yourself...

WoW is a very good game, and is number one....shrug.

Originally posted by metalliham

Originally posted by hogscraper

To all the people who argue which game is greatest, it seems like people's first response is to say my game is the greatest because we have x number of subs. For now and forever, please realize that to make the claim that numbers of people who like your game make it great is the same argument that these bands are the greatest bands of all time. 

The best-selling album of 1997 was Spice, by Spice Girls

The best-selling album of 1998 was Titanic Soundtrack

The best selling album of 1999 was Millennium, by Backstreet Boys 

The best-selling album of 2000 was No Strings Attached, by *NSYNC

The best-selling album of 2005 was The Emancipation of Mimi, by Mariah Carey

The best-selling album of 2006 was High School Musical Soundtrack

The Backstreet Boys album above is also the 9th highest grossing album of all times in world sales.  To all the people who think that simply being the lowest common denominator somehow makes your game/music/whatever the best, it simply means that in reality, its simply average. And in being AVERAGE it appeals to the most people. It also means that the only thing that will ever top it is a game that's even more watered down and average. 

 

Miarah Carey has had more #1 hits than The Beatles.

But I couldn't tell you the name of a single Mariah Carey song.

Point well-taken.

I'm not into shiny popular crap either.

Straight sex is shiny and popular.