Originally posted by malcombex

A ship crewed with real players would never leave port.   Where the hell is  my helmsman - oh hes not home from work yet.

Oh ok then Mr checkov  you have the helm - when youve quite finished jumping up and down like an idiot and where the hell is my scienece officer disapeared to ? Oh yeah hes got bad lag captain. What a joke - Cryptic are doing the best and only really viable option open to them . END OF

If by helmsman you mean the guy that normally sits at the helm, yea he might be dead IRL for all the crew knows.  That doesn't mean that posts should be inflexible.  The capt. could give an order to plot a course, and if no one is at the helm, any qualified member of the crew should be able to fill that position.

Imagine if Chekov were acting as though he was out of his mind, jumping up and down at his station, what do you think Kirk would have done?  He would have had him removed and gave another crew member orders to man the helm.

Have you ever played the Half-Life mod 'Natural Selection'?  When the match starts the players decide on the captain, who sits in the command seat and gives orders RTS style to the rest of the people who are playing FPS style.  The game works pretty well actually.  If people start disobeying orders and the mission is lost, then those players look bad towards the team, and so people typically work together and follow orders.  If the commander gives an order to a player to build a sensor, but that player just stares at the floor, the commander will give the command to someone else and get on the mic asking what the hell this guy is doing.  If he keeps being an idiot than he will probably be kicked from the server.

There are typically enough people on at any given time to play matches, likewise guilds in STO could 'handle' different types of ships depending on the size and competence of the guild.  None of that is stopping mister floor examiner from getting his own little craft, but to think that HE will be the captain of a STARSHIP along with everyone else is just dumb.

Almost everything about the world of Star Trek revolves around teamwork.  How fitting that as a modern MMO, it is now every man for himself.

Yeah i agree with you in theory ,but the point im trying to make is that the majority of players will themselves make that version of star trek online unplayable.You would find certain types of people purposely trying to ruin that experience simply because they can. Let alone rl issues getting in the way. I pesonally love the idea of teamwork on some simulated vessel out in deep space but it just wont translate into todays mmo market. so i agree with what cyptic are doing.

Originally posted by heremypet 

Almost everything about the world of Star Trek revolves around teamwork.  How fitting that as a modern MMO, it is now every man for himself.

Very well put. Every player is entitled to run his own Enterprise, I guess.

I get the impression that people who think player crews can't work have little or no experience grouping in other MMOs. Team work, leadership, co-ordination? They seem to be foreign concepts to the solo captain squad.

Originally posted by malcombex

Yeah i agree with you in theory ,but the point im trying to make is that the majority of players will themselves make that version of star trek online unplayable.You would find certain types of people purposely trying to ruin that experience simply because they can. Let alone rl issues getting in the way. I pesonally love the idea of teamwork on some simulated vessel out in deep space but it just wont translate into todays mmo market. so i agree with what cyptic are doing.

No offense...but pretty much every RAID or serious Dungeon in every MMO I've ever played required a reasonable amount of team-work from a group of players to complete successfully.  Yet when doing a ship-based mission in a Star Trek MMO.... that level of teamwork and cooperation suddenly becomes impossible to achieve ????   Please DO EXPLAIN?

I have plenty of experience with groups and raids , so i fully understand how they work .Im not saying theres any problem with this or acheiving common goals should be  outlawed. All im saying is that The equivelant to a raid would be multiple ships(avatars) focusing on a common goals.On the other hand being reliant on other members of your crew would be a nightmare ,as you would have to wait for each other to log on - all agree on the mission - all be happy with roles or be booted then look for replacements - it would take all night to leave port. come on guys why do you think the devs are doing it this way.

Originally posted by malcombex

All im saying is that The equivelant to a raid would be multiple ships(avatars) focusing on a common goals.On the other hand being reliant on other members of your crew would be a nightmare ,as you would have to wait for each other to log on - all agree on the mission - all be happy with roles or be booted then look for replacements - it would take all night to leave port.

That makes absolutely NO sense.

I ran a guild in Guild Wars for two years (and in many other games as well) and I can tell you there were plenty of times when I had announced a specific event on a specific night and we still ended up waiting around for a perticular person to log on or for some specific detail to be debated until a solution was found. That is simply the nature of grouping and team work in MMOs. Your assumption that giving everyone their own ship will solve this makes no sense to me. In Guild Wars we all had our "own ships" in a manner of speaking, any of us could have simply decided that grouping and guilds were not worth the effort and gone off to solo. And yet somehow people still joined my guild and went to great efforts to work as a team to accomplish things, even when it meant spending time waiting around or fighting over details. Why would it somehow be different in STO? I don't buy it.

I want to say how crazy it would be to design some mini-games for all of the potential different crew positions there are in some of the ST cannon.

However, I think it would just fall on deaf ears.  So, with that in mind. 

Who is going to play the Bar Tender in 10 forward? 

I imagine the mini game to be something like that arcade beer sliding game.  Sounds like fun, and if the inertial dempeners go out the bar will actually tilt making the game harder!

Will the engineer sit and press buttons when the captain types out a message to him/her in chat. 

Since you like theoretical conversations.......

Here is my theoretical conversation between players on a ship:

CPTN: fk11 fu11 wwwwwwwwaaaaaaaassssssss

ENGNR: ???? full power to sheilds?

CPTN: no!!!! fill the <bkspce><bkspce><bkspce><bkspce><bkspce> full power to threwqstrs!  <bkspce><bkspce><bkspce> thrusters!

ENGNR: OK!

CPTN: Well?  where are the f'in thrad <bkspce><bkspce><bkspce> thrusters!!!!!

ENGNR: You did not say ENGAGE!

SHIP:BOOM!!!

KLNGN: LOLZ!!!211!! NOOBFED!!

Resulting in my theoretical conversation on the Cryptic STO forumns;

PLYR: We should not have to type out full speed ahead to other playerrs on the ship.

CRPTIC: OK we will implement voice chat!

PLYR: No!  I keep forgetting to hit transmit on mic!  It needs to be a button.

CRPTIC:  So, you want to click a button that tells another player they need to click a button?

PLYR:  Yes!!!!

CRPTIC: What if I take the player out and you click a button and an NPC does the job!

PLYR: NO!!!!  You will d00m thegame! this is epic fail!!!  STO suxx!!!!! 

Originally posted by malcombex

I have plenty of experience with groups and raids , so i fully understand how they work .Im not saying theres any problem with this or acheiving common goals should be  outlawed. All im saying is that The equivelant to a raid would be multiple ships(avatars) focusing on a common goals.On the other hand being reliant on other members of your crew would be a nightmare ,as you would have to wait for each other to log on - all agree on the mission - all be happy with roles or be booted then look for replacements -

Just the way grouping for dungeon runs works - but STO would have the option of filing spots with NPC crew. You aren't even trying to think of this idea working.

it would take all night to leave port. come on guys why do you think the devs are doing it this way.

Because they are lazy and unimaginative, and trying for a big score with a dumbed-down game.

Even that would be fine - if they were not baiting Trek fans with the IP.

Originally posted by NovaKayne

I want to say how crazy it would be to design some mini-games for all of the potential different crew positions there are in some of the ST cannon.

 

However, I think it would just fall on deaf ears.  So, with that in mind. 

 

Who is going to play the Bar Tender in 10 forward? 

 

I imagine the mini game to be something like that arcade beer sliding game.  Sounds like fun, and if the inertial dempeners go out the bar will actually tilt making the game harder!

 

Will the engineer sit and press buttons when the captain types out a message to him/her in chat. 

 

Since you like theoretical conversations.......

Here is my theoretical conversation between players on a ship:

CPTN: fk11 fu11 wwwwwwwwaaaaaaaassssssss

ENGNR: ???? full power to sheilds?

CPTN: no!!!! fill the <bkspce><bkspce><bkspce><bkspce><bkspce> full power to threwqstrs!  <bkspce><bkspce><bkspce> thrusters!

ENGNR: OK!

CPTN: Well?  where are the f'in thrad <bkspce><bkspce><bkspce> thrusters!!!!!

ENGNR: You did not say ENGAGE!

SHIP:BOOM!!!

KLNGN: LOLZ!!!211!! NOOBFED!!

 

Resulting in my theoretical conversation on the Cryptic STO forumns;

PLYR: We should not have to type out full speed ahead to other playerrs on the ship.

CRPTIC: OK we will implement voice chat!

PLYR: No!  I keep forgetting to hit transmit on mic!  It needs to be a button.

CRPTIC:  So, you want to click a button that tells another player they need to click a button?

PLYR:  Yes!!!!

CRPTIC: What if I take the player out and you click a button and an NPC does the job!

PLYR: NO!!!!  You will d00m thegame! this is epic fail!!!  STO suxx!!!!! 

 

You are suggesting ridiculous strawman extremes in order to make the current design seem like the only option.

Voice chat is indeed the way to run a player crewed ship - just as millions of players use voice chat programs to play various MMOs right now.

Originally posted by NovaKayne

PLYR: We should not have to type out full speed ahead to other playerrs on the ship.

CRPTIC: OK we will implement voice chat!

PLYR: No!  I keep forgetting to hit transmit on mic!  It needs to be a button.

CRPTIC:  So, you want to click a button that tells another player they need to click a button?

PLYR:  Yes!!!!

CRPTIC: What if I take the player out and you click a button and an NPC does the job!

Better yet, lets take out that whole nasty "button clicking" mess completely. We will just set it up so that as soon as the player logs into the game they instantly get a message saying "YOU WIN!" without even having to do anything! Instant gratification without any work... except for the $15 a month fee... gotta have that still. And the cash shop, cause you gotta have that armor upgrade so you look good when you see the "you win" screen.

The sad part is, this is probably a pretty close approximation of the design philosophy at Cryptic...

So no-one thinks they'll be having these exact same conversations with other Captains? There is no difference in coordination between having five crew on ship and having five ships flying about on there own. You still have to coordinate buffs (or whatever Cryptic is going to call it), roles, primary repair ships (healers).

I well run player crew is going to operate exactly the same as a well run group of player captained ships.

And I'd happily volunteer for the bartender job in ten forward. Maybe it's not the most awesome job ever ... but I'd be level 1, on my first day playing, AND flying around in an awesome ship, protected by my friends while I learn something else. That would also solve one of the biggest issues MMOs have. What do you do with your new players when a majority of you players have moved so far beyond them that they feel alone/bored/whatever.

Originally posted by whpsh

So no-one thinks they'll be having these exact same conversations with other Captains? There is no difference in coordination between having five crew on ship and having five ships flying about on there own. You still have to coordinate buffs (or whatever Cryptic is going to call it), roles, primary repair ships (healers).

I well run player crew is going to operate exactly the same as a well run group of player captained ships.

And I'd happily volunteer for the bartender job in ten forward. Maybe it's not the most awesome job ever ... but I'd be level 1, on my first day playing, AND flying around in an awesome ship, protected by my friends while I learn something else. That would also solve one of the biggest issues MMOs have. What do you do with your new players when a majority of you players have moved so far beyond them that they feel alone/bored/whatever.

The bartender could even serve as a backup for crew who went AFK or got D/Ced. "Get to the bridge - on the double!"

The more we talk about this, the more I want a player crewed space game. I'd prefer it to be Trek, but I want a game like this made, whatever the IP.

Originally posted by whpsh

So no-one thinks they'll be having these exact same conversations with other Captains? There is no difference in coordination between having five crew on ship and having five ships flying about on there own. You still have to coordinate buffs (or whatever Cryptic is going to call it), roles, primary repair ships (healers).

I well run player crew is going to operate exactly the same as a well run group of player captained ships.

I agree. It also leaves the grouping part an option and not a neccessity. If you want to group up for PVP, you know where to find it. If you don't feel like dealing with the drama, there other things to do in game. Works for me.

I always think the best way to judge a game is to actually wait until it comes out before raking it over the coals.

I have no idea what STO will be like, but i am willing to at least give it a try. Every MMO has limitations or simply cannot incorporate every single thing a gamer would like to see in it, would i like to be a First Officer on a starship? not really, no....i mean what exactly would a Riker-like character even do on a ship with a competent captain? Not to mention the eventual ego brusing that is bound to happen with two people basically in charge of one ship.

Frankly i think a ship manned by an all PC crew would eventually turn into a "too many chief's, not enough indian's", i mean..let's be honest here, we've all been in that one guild that has people constantly bickering about leadership or their position within that group..we've all seen that player who gets way too high and mighty and believes that the whole guild will rise and fall to to his/her presence or lack thereof.

So true about guilds/clans, the enclave , the first order and the list goes on , with so many past guild/clans that think, "without me there is no clan/guild" and many within just leave to have the founders beg for their return. Add this type of concept to actual gameplay? = nightmare.

Originally posted by chaintm

So true about guilds/clans, the enclave , the first order and the list goes on , with so many past guild/clans that think, "without me there is no clan/guild" and many within just leave to have the founders beg for their return. Add this type of concept to actual gameplay? = nightmare.

If you end up in a guild where one person is doing all the work, then something is already wrong in the first place.

Secondly, if the founder/leader can't run his guild without a specific person then he isn't doing his own job properly. A guild leader needs to understand every aspect of the guild and be able to do every job himself, atleast on some basic level. When other people come along who are better at specific roles than the leader is he can assign them to take over that perticular area of the guild. But if that person gets a big head and threatens to leave or tries to overthrow the guild then the leader should be willing to swing the ban hammer at that person very quickly and he CAN swing the ban hammer at that person if he knows he can always take over doing the job that person was doing himself. If the guild is reliant on one person and that person isn't already the leader, then something is clearly wrong.

Lastly, I've been in many different guilds down through the years. I've been everything from a member, to an offcier, to the leader and everything else in between all of those things. I was the founder of my own guild that I ran (with the help of many other people) for over seven years in various different games. Even with all that experience, I rarely saw anything like what you two are trying to describe. In fact, I usually saw the exact opposite: Lazy people refusing to do any work at all. Most people just treat guilds as casual social clubs where they can hang out with their buddies and chat all day long while one guy does all the work to keep the guild going. Some people will become drama whores and demand promotions, but even when made into officers or leaders they continue to do nothing and whine about school/work/family if challenged to get off their ass and help. Its rare to ever find anyone who takes anything seriously.

And you know what? If it gets to a point where one person is doing all the work and the leader isn't doing squat... I think that guy has a RIGHT to demand more respect. He is the one doing all the work. So if you want to blame someone in that situation, then blame the leader who isn't doing any work and can't apparently control his own members. Imagine if Kirk was off in his quarters knocking boots with that black chick all day long while Spock was on the bridge being the Captain, Science offcier and Comm officer at the same time. How the hell would you feel in that situation? I've been there and I know how I felt.

Originally posted by FishyHat

I always think the best way to judge a game is to actually wait until it comes out before raking it over the coals.

Then why are you reading and posting in this forum?

I have no idea what STO will be like,

I do.

but i am willing to at least give it a try. Every MMO has limitations or simply cannot incorporate every single thing a gamer would like to see in it, would i like to be a First Officer on a starship? not really, no....i mean what exactly would a Riker-like character even do on a ship with a competent captain? Not to mention the eventual ego brusing that is bound to happen with two people basically in charge of one ship.

Frankly i think a ship manned by an all PC crew would eventually turn into a "too many chief's, not enough indian's", i mean..let's be honest here, we've all been in that one guild that has people constantly bickering about leadership or their position within that group..we've all seen that player who gets way too high and mighty and believes that the whole guild will rise and fall to to his/her presence or lack thereof.

 

Instance runs in other MMOs have one chief and the rest are Indians. Why would it work differently in this game?

Bad players can be kicked from groups/guilds.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by yavozerb

man, it's "star trek" build it, and they will come.....

 

I'm betting that's just what the makers of Matrix Online said.

I'm betting thats just what the makers of WoW said.

Originally posted by quitmoaning

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by yavozerb

man, it's "star trek" build it, and they will come.....

 I'm betting that's just what the makers of Matrix Online said.

 I'm betting thats just what the makers of WoW said. 

I'm betting thats what the makers of Star Wars Galaxies said...

I believe that STO should 100% be about real life players having different stations in the game.  That is what the essence of Star Trek is all about, being more than the sum of you parts.  I also think there is no way in hell that this will work.....it was mentioned earlier.....what if your helmsman has to leave halfway through a battle?  Someone else takes over?  If you station is so easy that you can actually run two......how boring will it be when you only have to look after one?

I don't think what STO should be is able to be designed yet.....

Originally posted by caine6621

I believe that STO should 100% be about real life players having different stations in the game.  That is what the essence of Star Trek is all about, being more than the sum of you parts.  I also think there is no way in hell that this will work.....it was mentioned earlier.....what if your helmsman has to leave halfway through a battle? 

That can happen when they are in their own ship, too.

What do you do during a typical MMO instance run when someone goes AFK or is disconnected?

Big difference between one person in your group leaving and one member of your bridge crew leaving

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter 

Then why are you reading and posting in this forum?

1: Because reading and posting in a forum doesn't constitute making a judgement call on a game?

2:I like to read what other gamers thoughts are on a paticular game.

 

I have no idea what STO will be like,

I do.

Perhaps you do, perhaps you don't...time will tell.

 

 

Bad players can be kicked from groups/guilds.

 

Instance runs in other MMOs have one chief and the rest are Indians. Why would it work differently in this game?

There are usually several chief's and more times than not it turns into a cluster. Having the same type of thing on a starship with maybe 60 people barking different orders would be, like other games, a confusing mess...only instead of loss of life it's also the loss of a starship as well.

OK, so let's assume for a moment that a Chief Engineer decides to get a big head and you have little choice but to kick him right then and there....now you're in deep space without a C.E. and you have to, let say, rely on a rookie engineer to take up the reigns.

And this is where the problem begins...we must assume that a C.E. is a C.E. for a reason (I.E. learned skills that makes repair faster and so on) Now you got a rookie doing the job of a C.E. with half the experience and skill...that's like have a level 15 healer trying to keep a level 30 tank alive...it's possible but extremely difficult.

So, to solve this probelm you have more than one high ranking officer on board at any given time, basically doubling your crew...but since your regular crew is keeping the ship...erm..ship-shape...you have a whole bunch of high ranking officers doing nothing. Which means you're not going to be having this group for long...who would want to get a character to a respectable level only to spend the rest of his/her career sitting?

This isn't even considering the friends the C.E. may have had aborad ship that decide to up and leave with him, possibly crippling your starship in one fell swoop.

Originally posted by FishyHat 

I like to read what other gamers thoughts are on a paticular game.

You claim you like to hear opinions on this game and yet when we give you our opinion you launch into a rant about how our opinion doesn't matter because we obviously don't know anything about the game and can't judge it until it comes out. But if our opinions don't matter why do you want to hear them? What kind of sense does that make? It would be like bringing a jury to a trial and then completely ignoring their verdict.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

In entertainment venues, the words "You Can't" are not a good recipie for success. This is the core of why I think STO is going to be a huge dissappointment for many fans. Because of the genre we are dealing with, people are going to come into the game with  expectations to be able to do certain things.... when they find out this is not supported, there is going to be a huge let down factor.

To illustrate, imagine this hypothetical conversation between Cryptic and a potential fan.

Fan - "I'm so stoked, I'm finaly going to be able to play an MMO where I can be the Chief Engineer aboard a starship in the Trek universe".

Cyptic - "I'm sorry but you can't play the Chief Engineer, you MUST be the Captain of your ship."

Fan - "What about my freind Bob, we played the FASA rpg...and he liked to play the Captain and I liked playing the Engineer. If I have to be Captain what does he play aboard our ship?"

Cryptic - "You can't play aboard the same ship with Bob, every ship is crewed by only a single player who MUST be Captain...all other positions MUST be filled by NPC's".

Fan - "That stinks. Well can I at least invite Bob aboard to show him all the tinkering I've done with the engines down in Engineering?"

Cryptic - "Sorry but you can't. Players can't beam over to other players ships. The only Player that can be aboard your ship is. You."

Fan - " So I can't be the Chief Engineer and I can't invite anyone aboard my ship. So what do I do when I tinker with stuff down in Engineering. Do I have to take screenshots to send them to other players to show off Engineering aboard my ship."

Cryptic - "I'm sorry but there IS no Engineering aboard your ship....or rather I should say it's not represented in game.... none of the interior areas aboard your ship are represented....so you can't go there, show them to anyone or tinker with any of the equipment there."

FAN - "So what happens in a fight when my front shield goes down and I do a half-loop to put my aft shields to the enemy. If cant goto Engineering, how do I get my front shield-back online? Does my NPC Engineer do it for me automaticaly?"

Cryptic - "Uhm...you can't do a half-loop in this game... we only support WASD movement and an elevator function.... there is no pitch or roll control"

FAN - "So what happens when I loose my front shield facing? How can I quickly manuver my ship so that I'm not exposing a weakend shield."

Cryptic - "Oh Don't worry about that.... shield facings are irrelevant... you can instantly transfer power to any shield facing you want by pressing a button on your hot-bar."

FAN - "Shield facings are irrelevant....and I'm limited in the control of movement and positioning of my ship. So what determines victory in Space Combat?"

Cryptic - "Ah well, if you do more damage to your opponent then they have hit points...er, I mean shield energy and structural points. Then you win!"

FAN - "Uhm.....so where do tactics come into play?"

Cryptic - "Oh that's easy... Depending upon your class... and upon the Pets...er I mean Bridge Crew you have equiped during the fight....you have certain specials on your hot-bar that buff you or debuff your enemies or let you do more powerfull attacks.... just like in WOW.... for instance there is a Photon Torpedoes of Doom special attack you can get that lets you fire 40 torpedoes all at once!"

FAN - "Photon Torpedos of Doom.... specials....this is SCIENCE Fiction we are talking about, not Magic right??? Don't torpedo tubes have a certain built in rate of fire.... how can you explain how stuff like that is supposed to work?? "

Cryptic - "Oh....easy.... we don't"
 

Yippee ki yeah.....another i want my forced group thread.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

beeeeepppp beeeeppp....Intruder alert....Rabbid detected heading toward bridge....

Picard : Number one have Worf intercept Rabbid.

Riker: Aye Sire....Mr Worf.....

Worf: already on it sir! * heads off bridge with phaser in hand*

2 min later.....

Picard: Mr Worf report!

*sounds of phaser fire and unusual poppin noses*

Worf: Sir request reinforcements *pop* AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH *silence*

Picard: Worf! Mr. Worf acknowledge! number one intercept.... *pppppssssttt*

Rabbid enters bridge.....fires plunger at riker's nut sack*

Riker: Sorry deanna I cant have kids with you anymore....falls uncouncious

Deanna Troi: Sir i detect anger at one crewman....

(AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH fires plungers at wesly Crusher killing him instantly)

Rabbid leaves....

Picard: Shows ratings willl go up now that he's gone