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Originally posted by Ravanos
Did you just equate clicking a mouse and tapping keys on a keyboard to moving appliances? Really..? |
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Originally posted by Toquio3 At first i thought the negative,another simplistic no brain peed leveler,but then it hit me lol. Perhaps this player meant,he needed more xp to be able to fight the mobs needed for the quest.He may have been judging his chances based on the mobs you killed and decided he was not strong enough.Players often speak in broken phrases and don't really tell it as it is al lthe time,so this is just my thoughts rather than being totally cynical :D. |
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Lansid
 Elite Member
Joined: 8/21/03
"Remember... no matter where you go... there you are!" |
"It seems like a lot of MMO players these days are just in it for themselves." If you take a step backwards... and look at the social factor of MMO's and go even further to compare it to RL, you realize something. It's VERY... f'ing... similar. Most people could really give two shits... about helping you, about what your problems are, and about what you "need". Now compound the situation, by distancing human empathy by adding "the grind". If you HELP people, you are punished in your "grind" for self achievement. If that isn't deterrent enough, then you throw in the actual human interaction from the "detached majority that are only playing for themselves." They have quests/need ress'd or help, you give it... and you get nothing in return. Maybe a "k done thx" *your group has been disbanded* if you're lucky. But again... it's like this in the REAL WORLD too... hold a fucking door open for someone and watch what they say or how they react. 1-2/10 you get a "thanks"... most walk in as if you were expected to do that for them in the first place. Has nothing to do with "solo" or "group" mentality, it's human-f'ing-nature that in turn are compounded by the problem that MMO's punish grouping rather than promote it.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain." |
Originally posted by Lansid Where do you live, anyway? It's rare that I don't get a thank you when I hold or open a door for someone. Anonymity breeds assholery. The more people in a society, the less likely you will meet the same person again, leaving those who are so inclined to be jerks. |
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Lansid
Elite Member
Joined: 8/21/03
"Remember... no matter where you go... there you are!" |
Central Ohio... ironically, the most "thanks" or nods I get are from people 20'ish and under. "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain." |
Originally posted by Lansid
I grew up in ohio. Spent 12 years in new york. Live in Texas now. I know EXACTLY what he is talking about. Wher ei work ...a few weeks ago, a customer left our shop with his credit card on the counter. I picked it up and sprinted out the door to catch him and return it. His response "oh" literally. |
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Originally posted by Lansid Interesting. Perhaps things are getting better there, then. Good manners are a social disease - the more you touch others, the more likely they will become 'infected'. It's not easy sometimes, but I try hard to reinforce good behaviour in others. Setting a good example is all that we can do. We are all role models. |
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp
its also bad game design, the hard split encourages soloing and not doing anything duo. I play these games for fun but i also like to be rewarded for my effort. i would have no problem throwing groups together with randoms but why would i when the hard split doesn't reward me for doing so. I blame the solofication of MMOs.
It's a bad game design if you want a game for PUGS. Good game design if you want to solo to the level cap, then raid. It's not really fun to do things the hard way for no reason. In other words the "fun" of grouping isn't that much fun when you realize the game is penalizing you for it. Like, it's "fun" to go to the beach. But then you find there is a 100 dollar fine for going to the beach that day. Suddenly it's not that fun any more. Nothing wrong with solo friendly games like Aion. Certainly WoW shows this is a very successful model.
That is confusing argument. Do you want to group for the sake of grouping and social interactions, or do you want to group just because you expect better loot or xp or other gains? If fun is derived just from grouping, go join a group, don't argue about relative gains and losses vs soloing. You got your group, if people want you, that is. If fun is purely minimax calculation, then group if it pay more, and solo the next moment the pay scale shifts. If you want both, yes you seems to want both, then you go find a game that offers that. I do not see how that has anything to do with good design bad design. Some people play very casual with irregular online time and inability to commit to anyone before hand or even during online. They can and may go afk anytime. For such people, PUG is an option. For them PUGgable games are what they want, games like old EQ or FF is simply not viable. Yeah they can play solo games, but then PUG offers some social interaction without the need to resort to raid or attention heavy games. WAR and WoW are games with such options. In WAR, we just move to a zone, see a PQ and go pew pew or hack&slash. We do not even need an invite. |
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Lansid
Elite Member
Joined: 8/21/03
"Remember... no matter where you go... there you are!" |
Pretty much... I'd guess New York would be much more impersonal of a place to live more so than where I do... I can only compare it to having stayed in Toronto and Mexico City.... both of which were huge and didn't feel much different from city life... just bigger cities. Now depending on where in Ohio you are, peoples reactions can improve. Instead of a "look by you as you didn't exist" kind of reaction you get in populated cities... you can get the "nudge/bump you're in the way" reaction, or the "look you up and down like you're a moron" look in rural areas. So when I play MMO's I'm really not bothered by all the asshatery, rudeness, ect. I expect most of them TO be that way... I just try to find a group of people that I get along with, and branch out from there. "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain." |
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Group content & solo content has to separate because it is not possible to tune well for both. As someone has pointed out, in WOW, you level FASTER if you group and go to dungeons at your level. However, that .. sometimes is difficult if there is no one at your level. I have seen regularly people are offering money to have people run them through lower level dungeons. The fix is coming though. WOW is adding a cross-realm LFG tool for dungeons and so i expect it is more viable to do low level dungeon (at least you can queue it up and wait, without wasting time shouting in trade) once it goes life. It is silly to expect people to do anything but advancing their characters. There are obviously helpful people out there but I don't think we should expect everyone to be so. It is a game where people come to have fun ... even the more selfish people are customers. Just don't play with them .. i dunno what is the problem? The other thing is that you can always stick playing/chatting with your frds & guiidies. I don't see why there is a need to play with strangers all the time. |
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Originally posted by nariusseldon You just about had a revelation there, then you lost it. Designs based on soloing seems to resonate with and attract those types of players doesn't it? That doesn't mean that the helpful people aren't there, I've met plenty of nice and helpful people in WoW, but I'm usually being overrun by asshats. |
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Originally posted by heremypet That's purely your own personal experience. The most helpful and social people I have encountered in MMOs were most definetly 'soloers' as this forums defines these things. It was only when I switched my focus to group content that I encounterd the drama, asshattery and disloyalty that make people quit MMOs. I will gladly argue that proper casual solo-play design attracts the more mature people who appreciate what they have because of their limited playtime. |
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Originally posted by Torik That's purely your own personal experience. The most helpful and social people I have encountered in MMOs were most definetly 'soloers' as this forums defines these things. It was only when I switched my focus to group content that I encounterd the drama, asshattery and disloyalty that make people quit MMOs. I will gladly argue that proper casual solo-play design attracts the more mature people who appreciate what they have because of their limited playtime. I don't doubt what you say, but your experiences are definitely contradictory to mine. |
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Originally posted by heremypet I don't doubt what you say, but your experiences are definitely contradictory to mine. That's the problem with anectodal evidence. Because you experienced something, you are more convinced of its validity as you see it. When my experience of the same event is different, your conclussions seem really weird to me and seem to contradict reality as I see it. It's what can be refered to as a 'failure to agree on reality'. So when someone says that the soloers are anti-social then I have to disagree because the soloers I deal with all the time are quite social. Maybe my experiences are atypical of the general population or maybe the other person is talking out of his ass. Similarly, people love to complain how bad Pickup Groups are and how horrible their experiences in PuGs are. Myself, I do PuGs frequently enough and have mostly pleasant experiences. The bad PuGs usually break up real quick and rarely leave a strong impression on me. Am I just lucky or maybe too forgiving or are the complainers just too easily enraged and blow things out of proportion? |
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MMOs are made to solo, so this sort of mentality is not surprising. The need for XP is a solo game concept that sits like some odd beast at the heart of MMO's. MMO design should favour co-operation not be against it. |
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Originally posted by lisubab
its also bad game design, the hard split encourages soloing and not doing anything duo. I play these games for fun but i also like to be rewarded for my effort. i would have no problem throwing groups together with randoms but why would i when the hard split doesn't reward me for doing so. I blame the solofication of MMOs.
It's a bad game design if you want a game for PUGS. Good game design if you want to solo to the level cap, then raid. It's not really fun to do things the hard way for no reason. In other words the "fun" of grouping isn't that much fun when you realize the game is penalizing you for it. Like, it's "fun" to go to the beach. But then you find there is a 100 dollar fine for going to the beach that day. Suddenly it's not that fun any more. Nothing wrong with solo friendly games like Aion. Certainly WoW shows this is a very successful model.
That is confusing argument. Do you want to group for the sake of grouping and social interactions, or do you want to group just because you expect better loot or xp or other gains? If fun is derived just from grouping, go join a group, don't argue about relative gains and losses vs soloing. You got your group, if people want you, that is. I don't think anyone derives fun in an MMORPG "just from grouping". Hey, I'm in a group, so I'm having fun now! Uh, no. What if I give a large bonus to groups. Are you going to then cry "forced grouping"? If you can still solo to the level cap, even though it takes longer than in a group, what's the problem? Do you REALLY like soloing, or you just like the better loot and other gains? Because there is no game where you cannot solo. There's no game mechanic that stops you, just in some old school MMORPGs it takes longer. But a more direct answer to your question is, I like to group when it's a challenge and there is an obstacle to overcome. Not just to be in a group for no reason at all. Like, hey guys, join my group! I dont' want to do a quest, or grind mobs, I can make more progress doing that solo. I just want to sit here in a group with you guys because it's so much fun! I can chat with people when they aren't in my group, so that would be kind of pointless. A good grouping game doesn't allow you to group. It provides obstacles to overcome with your group. Think about it like this. I say, you know, I'd like to climb a really challenging mountain. Like say, Mount Everest. And you say, well, not everyone can do that, so we're just going to let you climb that small hill over there. But, if you want to, you can tie one hand behind your back, and that will be exactly LIKE climbing Mount Everest! So, if you like to climb mountains, you'll just do that. Unless you are lying, and you don't REALLy like to climb mountains? So, I REALLY like to group when there is a challenge, not so much when it's pointless because the game has been dumbed down. It's not necessary that EVERYONE feel the way I do about grouping for this to be a valid opinion about why and when grouping is fun. I'm not the only one in these forums that feel this way. It's entirely possible OP that you don't feel this way at all, and for YOU the point of grouping would be just to "allow" you to group, and you wold be satisfied with that. But most advocates of good grouping features don't want to be "allowed" to group, they actually want some challenging content to do once they get in a group.
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I think it would be pretty cool if MMOs could limit your ability to progress any further at certain points, and force you into a group encounter that uncovers lore or storyline, or even just a direction of where your character is progressing to. This would encourage grouping, and remind even the generally solo players that group content is viable in the game, and that sometimes you should try to create a group rather than solo to overcome a challenge - it would also help players find their class role in a group situation a bit better before they hit the level cap and start raiding or pvping.
You could imagine something like this, a la WoW: Levels 1-4 nothing Level 5 - you can not get to level 6 until you complete a quest, say, to kill an elite mob that is level 6 (since the frequency for low level players getting to level 5 is quite common, I do not believe this would be a problem) Level 6-11, nothing Level 12 - you can not get to level 13 until you kill several level 12 elite mobs and a level 13/14 elite boss mob. blah. blah. blah. But it would be nice to sort of be funneled into these group situations, to an extent... I am unsure if the above would work, probably not and people would likely complain about how hard it is to find a group to kill things... perhaps with a smaller world at the beginning, and forcing people less as they progress onwards and mature a little more... Bleh, tired. Playing: Non--erm, wait, no, WoW. You all need to learn to spell. |
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp
It's a bad game design if you want a game for PUGS. Good game design if you want to solo to the level cap, then raid. It's not really fun to do things the hard way for no reason. In other words the "fun" of grouping isn't that much fun when you realize the game is penalizing you for it. Like, it's "fun" to go to the beach. But then you find there is a 100 dollar fine for going to the beach that day. Suddenly it's not that fun any more. Nothing wrong with solo friendly games like Aion. Certainly WoW shows this is a very successful model.
That is confusing argument. Do you want to group for the sake of grouping and social interactions, or do you want to group just because you expect better loot or xp or other gains? If fun is derived just from grouping, go join a group, don't argue about relative gains and losses vs soloing. You got your group, if people want you, that is. I don't think anyone derives fun in an MMORPG "just from grouping". Hey, I'm in a group, so I'm having fun now! Uh, no. What if I give a large bonus to groups. Are you going to then cry "forced grouping"? If you can still solo to the level cap, even though it takes longer than in a group, what's the problem? Do you REALLY like soloing, or you just like the better loot and other gains? Because there is no game where you cannot solo. There's no game mechanic that stops you, just in some old school MMORPGs it takes longer. But a more direct answer to your question is, I like to group when it's a challenge and there is an obstacle to overcome. Not just to be in a group for no reason at all. Like, hey guys, join my group! I dont' want to do a quest, or grind mobs, I can make more progress doing that solo. I just want to sit here in a group with you guys because it's so much fun! I can chat with people when they aren't in my group, so that would be kind of pointless. A good grouping game doesn't allow you to group. It provides obstacles to overcome with your group. Think about it like this. I say, you know, I'd like to climb a really challenging mountain. Like say, Mount Everest. And you say, well, not everyone can do that, so we're just going to let you climb that small hill over there. But, if you want to, you can tie one hand behind your back, and that will be exactly LIKE climbing Mount Everest! So, if you like to climb mountains, you'll just do that. Unless you are lying, and you don't REALLy like to climb mountains? So, I REALLY like to group when there is a challenge, not so much when it's pointless because the game has been dumbed down. It's not necessary that EVERYONE feel the way I do about grouping for this to be a valid opinion about why and when grouping is fun. I'm not the only one in these forums that feel this way. It's entirely possible OP that you don't feel this way at all, and for YOU the point of grouping would be just to "allow" you to group, and you wold be satisfied with that. But most advocates of good grouping features don't want to be "allowed" to group, they actually want some challenging content to do once they get in a group.
actually imo, the only way I can derive fun from grouping is when there are no rewards at the end. add epics and all of a sudden something changes. everytime i raided in wow, i was bored out of my skull, and the loot drops only added aggravation and disappointment to otherwise fun instances.
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Originally posted by Toquio3
It's a bad game design if you want a game for PUGS. Good game design if you want to solo to the level cap, then raid. It's not really fun to do things the hard way for no reason. In other words the "fun" of grouping isn't that much fun when you realize the game is penalizing you for it. Like, it's "fun" to go to the beach. But then you find there is a 100 dollar fine for going to the beach that day. Suddenly it's not that fun any more. Nothing wrong with solo friendly games like Aion. Certainly WoW shows this is a very successful model.
That is confusing argument. Do you want to group for the sake of grouping and social interactions, or do you want to group just because you expect better loot or xp or other gains? If fun is derived just from grouping, go join a group, don't argue about relative gains and losses vs soloing. You got your group, if people want you, that is. I don't think anyone derives fun in an MMORPG "just from grouping". Hey, I'm in a group, so I'm having fun now! Uh, no. What if I give a large bonus to groups. Are you going to then cry "forced grouping"? If you can still solo to the level cap, even though it takes longer than in a group, what's the problem? Do you REALLY like soloing, or you just like the better loot and other gains? Because there is no game where you cannot solo. There's no game mechanic that stops you, just in some old school MMORPGs it takes longer. But a more direct answer to your question is, I like to group when it's a challenge and there is an obstacle to overcome. Not just to be in a group for no reason at all. Like, hey guys, join my group! I dont' want to do a quest, or grind mobs, I can make more progress doing that solo. I just want to sit here in a group with you guys because it's so much fun! I can chat with people when they aren't in my group, so that would be kind of pointless. A good grouping game doesn't allow you to group. It provides obstacles to overcome with your group. Think about it like this. I say, you know, I'd like to climb a really challenging mountain. Like say, Mount Everest. And you say, well, not everyone can do that, so we're just going to let you climb that small hill over there. But, if you want to, you can tie one hand behind your back, and that will be exactly LIKE climbing Mount Everest! So, if you like to climb mountains, you'll just do that. Unless you are lying, and you don't REALLy like to climb mountains? So, I REALLY like to group when there is a challenge, not so much when it's pointless because the game has been dumbed down. It's not necessary that EVERYONE feel the way I do about grouping for this to be a valid opinion about why and when grouping is fun. I'm not the only one in these forums that feel this way. It's entirely possible OP that you don't feel this way at all, and for YOU the point of grouping would be just to "allow" you to group, and you wold be satisfied with that. But most advocates of good grouping features don't want to be "allowed" to group, they actually want some challenging content to do once they get in a group.
actually imo, the only way I can derive fun from grouping is when there are no rewards at the end. add epics and all of a sudden something changes. everytime i raided in wow, i was bored out of my skull, and the loot drops only added aggravation and disappointment to otherwise fun instances.
Yes, different gamers enjoy different things. I don't raid at all. I don't enjoy it. Lot's of players like to raid. It's good to have choice, like good grouping games, and good solo games for people that enjoy different types of game play. But I sort of think you're going off topic here, confusing raiding with grouping.
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Originally posted by Toquio3
It's the fault of the game. It promotes a race to end game and not enjoyment of the journey... need xp, need xp, need xp... |
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp I don't think anyone derives fun in an MMORPG "just from grouping". Hey, I'm in a group, so I'm having fun now! Uh, no. You are wrong, I enjoy grouping with friends, even if it just means grouping to talk or doing something silly. What if I give a large bonus to groups. Are you going to then cry "forced grouping"? If you can still solo to the level cap, even though it takes longer than in a group, what's the problem? Do you REALLY like soloing, or you just like the better loot and other gains? I like to play, solo or group as I like it at the moment, I do not need to force myself to solo or group due to loots or anything. Nothing counts when I log out. The loot does not go to bed with me. Because there is no game where you cannot solo. There's no game mechanic that stops you, just in some old school MMORPGs it takes longer. There are games where you cannot solo. With any hopes for getting anywhere. Try FF, try RvR in DAoC frontier. But a more direct answer to your question is, I like to group when it's a challenge and there is an obstacle to overcome. Not just to be in a group for no reason at all. If you do only for the sake of challenge, go find that game. If you cannot find it, blame your ownself. That is your mission, we do not care for it. You set your goal you go try it out. Like, hey guys, join my group! I dont' want to do a quest, or grind mobs, I can make more progress doing that solo. I just want to sit here in a group with you guys because it's so much fun! I can chat with people when they aren't in my group, so that would be kind of pointless. A good grouping game doesn't allow you to group. It provides obstacles to overcome with your group. Think about it like this. I say, you know, I'd like to climb a really challenging mountain. Like say, Mount Everest. And you say, well, not everyone can do that, so we're just going to let you climb that small hill over there. But, if you want to, you can tie one hand behind your back, and that will be exactly LIKE climbing Mount Everest! So, if you like to climb mountains, you'll just do that. Unless you are lying, and you don't REALLy like to climb mountains? So, I REALLY like to group when there is a challenge, not so much when it's pointless because the game has been dumbed down. It's not necessary that EVERYONE feel the way I do about grouping for this to be a valid opinion about why and when grouping is fun. I'm not the only one in these forums that feel this way. It's entirely possible OP that you don't feel this way at all, and for YOU the point of grouping would be just to "allow" you to group, and you wold be satisfied with that. But most advocates of good grouping features don't want to be "allowed" to group, they actually want some challenging content to do once they get in a group.
You want a challenge? Soloing can be challenging too. Fact is, soloing group content is sometimes far more challenging. When I first try to solo UBRS in WoW as a hunter, it was rude awakening. If you religiously need to play challenging content in a group find your group and your content. NO police officer is hanging around the streets trying to bust you when you are shopping for your game. Its no one's business. It just annoys us when you start blaming us, we have nothing to do with your frustration in you game hunt. Yes I won't group with you b/c you annoys me. Maybe millions do not want to play in your little group. That, is our freedom. Maybe no game producer wants to supply you your favourite gameplay for your $15. That is there freedom. But then that is freedom. You are free to look for what you want, everyone is free to respond or ignore you. |
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