Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Ruyn

Originally posted by Yamota

Linear, themepark and casual. The basic three WoW clone recipes and reasons not to buy any MMORPG that is like that.

 

Amen.  Never again will I play an MMO that funnels me.  I will also never play a leveling mmo again.  Must be skill based.  Some of you may say that, well you still level in a skill based system.  I say back that the difference is not exponential.  Nothing is more frustrating when trying to play with your friends and being separated by big level differences.  In a skill based MMO you can get together with any number of friends, head in any direction and still contribute in meaningful ways.  This type of MMO also encourages you to enjoy the journey more than the destination.

 

I really I don't think anybody has much to try and persuade you, everybody has their own style when it comes to games. Some prefer a level system, some prefer skill based.

"Skill" based games don't mean anything other then the character advances through abilities and not so much levels, I actually don't see much of a difference, higher levels mean more damage, higher skills mean more damage. Most leveling MMOs encourge the destination, you're correct, but ToR on the other hand, a game where Story is a main focus, encourges both. Yes both, the journey and where you're going to end up. That's how I see it though. You might see it a different way.

The difference is quite huge.

In level based games it is primarily your level and the level of your opponent that decides who will win. In a skill based game it is your skills (and attributes) that decide.

That sounds like it is not a big difference but in reality it is. Gaining levels is a linear path that you cant influence (you gain exp and your level go and and you automatically gain new skills) where as gaining skills is very much not linear. You choose what skills to advance in and in the end it is your choices that influence if you will defeat your opponent.

For example take Asherons Call. There you had a level indicator but that was just a measurement of how much experience you have gained. The efficiency of your character was based on your skills and that was (mostly) up to the player to decide what skills to focus on. So for example you could have a level 75 character that picked a various number of skills (combat and on combat related) and you had a level 50 that focused on a small set of combat skills and then it would be very possible that the level 50 would come out as the winner because his choice of skills was much more suitable for combat where as the other ones was a mix.

In a level based game that would be more or less impossible as someone with 50% higher level would have such an advantage in HP/Mana/Hit ratio/Dmg modifier and etc that the combat would be no contest.

Also big difference would also be that in a level based game the devs decide how your character plays (they define what skills you can have at level X) where as in a skill based game you the player decide. That for me is huge...

Im just going to wait till after its out, keep reading up on it and the player base balances out some, then ill give it a shot.

Its going to be full of scorned pre/after CU SWG players who'll probably pick apart any fault they can find an rant about it on ingame and forums left and right turning the in game community into a farce at first.

Least that way Ill be able to judge for myself wether I continue playing or not, an not some scorned player.

Originally posted by Yamota

The difference is quite huge.

In level based games it is primarily your level and the level of your opponent that decides who will win. In a skill based game it is your skills (and attributes) that decide.

That sounds like it is not a big difference but in reality it is. Gaining levels is a linear path that you cant influence (you gain exp and your level go and and you automatically gain new skills) where as gaining skills is very much not linear. You choose what skills to advance in and in the end it is your choices that influence if you will defeat your opponent.

Skill trees ring a bell at all? May not be complete customization, but it influences your characters play style a lot.

In a level based game that would be more or less impossible as someone with 50% higher level would have such an advantage in HP/Mana/Hit ratio/Dmg modifier and etc that the combat would be no contest.

Same goes for skill based, only 'minor' difference being the skill ranks are 50% lower.

Also big difference would also be that in a level based game the devs decide how your character plays (they define what skills you can have at level X) where as in a skill based game you the player decide. That for me is huge...

To be honest I would rather the devs decide how my character plays, it's usually a balanced game that way.  I still don't see a major difference, I have played both types and to me, the difference is meh. But you're right biggest difference, is it's the complete freedom of customization, but I still see them playing out the same.

you forgot:

6.  You must max level an Ewok or Gungan character before getting access to other races...

...let's see how long it takes for that one to take hold...

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Originally posted by Yamota

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Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero

 

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Originally posted by Yamota
Linear, themepark and casual. The basic three WoW clone recipes and reasons not to buy any MMORPG that is like that.

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And yet in your player profile it says currently playing Aion and Champions Online, 2 games that are even more linear and themepark than WoW.
Next time you attempt (and fail miserably) at being a smartass you may want to check your profile and make sure it doesn't make you look like a total hypocrite.
Just a suggestion.

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And have you stopped to think that those games are the very reason I am saying I dont want to play any games like that again?

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I'll get right on that. I need to hone my psychic abilities anyway. God forbid I read something YOU wrote and take it at face value instead of reaching out with the Force for up to the milisecond updates on the great Yammy.

And maybe you should stop to think that just because garbage companies like Ncsoft and Cryptic can't do the genre justice doesn't necessarily mean a proven element like Bioware will make the same mistakes.

But ya...I can see how the rational element in that argument might take a hyperlane you're not familiar with. Besides you thought AION might be a good game...REALLY?

 I'm willing to give Bioware more slack than most developers because they've shown they can make good games (and that's not an easy thing to do in any genre).

But MMORPGs are big, complex and lots of things can go wrong with them.   I'm enthusiastic for the game sure, but we can't forget that we really don't know that much about it yet.   And we won't ever know enough to truly make a judgement about it until the game is released.

At this point, anyone saying this game is doomed to fail OR saying that it's going be a 'WoW-killer' is an idiot.  

Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero

 

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Originally posted by Yamota
Linear, themepark and casual. The basic three WoW clone recipes and reasons not to buy any MMORPG that is like that.

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And yet in your player profile it says currently playing Aion and Champions Online, 2 games that are even more linear and themepark than WoW.

Next time you attempt (and fail miserably) at being a smartass you may want to check your profile and make sure it doesn't make you look like a total hypocrite.

Just a suggestion.

OH SNAP!

Combat is looking way, way too mmo/hack-and-slashish to me.  Looking to be more of a Dungeon Siege rather than a true mmorpg.  One question though: When did we vote on whether story and everything being voiced-over was more important than actual gameplay?  I didnt get that memo.

Originally posted by Sensai

Combat is looking way, way too mmo/hack-and-slashish to me.  Looking to be more of a Dungeon Siege rather than a true mmorpg.  One question though: When did we vote on whether story and everything being voiced-over was more important than actual gameplay?  I didnt get that memo.

Wow....is this a joke? Dungeon Siege? Are we watching the same videos? From what I have watched I have noticed a twitch based combat system without an auto attack. And you're comparing it to a game that requires you to hold down your right mouse button to spam auto attacks?

Peter, you didn't get that memo? It said ,

"We’re trying to really get the message out, all of the other stuff is there, it’s just a little harder to demo that. Of course we want to demo the coolest stuff, and things that we feel is new into an MMO, but all of the other stuff is definitely going to be there."

There was also another one saying they want to get out there what makes them different. I'm not going to supply you the quote, if you was truely motived or interested you would have looked it up yourself.

Oh, Hack and Slash =/= Dungeon Siege. Ever try Ryl, Rune, maybe Dynasty Warriors?

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Originally posted by Sensai
Combat is looking way, way too mmo/hack-and-slashish to me.  Looking to be more of a Dungeon Siege rather than a true mmorpg.  One question though: When did we vote on whether story and everything being voiced-over was more important than actual gameplay?  I didnt get that memo.

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You were probably too busy complaining on random forums about a game you know nothing about so when the memo came you just tossed it in your junk heap.

Originally posted by Sensai

Combat is looking way, way too mmo/hack-and-slashish to me.  Looking to be more of a Dungeon Siege rather than a true mmorpg.  One question though: When did we vote on whether story and everything being voiced-over was more important than actual gameplay?  I didnt get that memo.

There is no "true mmorpg".  That is just bs to say.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Yamota

The difference is quite huge.

In level based games it is primarily your level and the level of your opponent that decides who will win. In a skill based game it is your skills (and attributes) that decide.

That sounds like it is not a big difference but in reality it is. Gaining levels is a linear path that you cant influence (you gain exp and your level go and and you automatically gain new skills) where as gaining skills is very much not linear. You choose what skills to advance in and in the end it is your choices that influence if you will defeat your opponent.

Skill trees ring a bell at all? May not be complete customization, but it influences your characters play style a lot.

Skill trees are not mandatory in a skill based games, some devs use it to cheat their way of balancing the game since it is quite challenging to balance a game with is completely skill based.

In a level based game that would be more or less impossible as someone with 50% higher level would have such an advantage in HP/Mana/Hit ratio/Dmg modifier and etc that the combat would be no contest.

Same goes for skill based, only 'minor' difference being the skill ranks are 50% lower.

What? In skill based games you do not get any dmg modifiers/hp/mana etc solely based on your level. Attributes are usually influenced by what skill you use and not what level you are. In combat it is your skills vs that person skills that decide the outcome, levels have no direct effect.

Also big difference would also be that in a level based game the devs decide how your character plays (they define what skills you can have at level X) where as in a skill based game you the player decide. That for me is huge...

To be honest I would rather the devs decide how my character plays, it's usually a balanced game that way.  I still don't see a major difference, I have played both types and to me, the difference is meh. But you're right biggest difference, is it's the complete freedom of customization, but I still see them playing out the same.

Have you tried Asherons Call or recently Champions Online? You can have a character that has some nuking, some melee, some tanking abilities or focus in one. Granted Champions Online is semi level based but still the difference between how that game plays and for example a strictly level based like Aion is huge.

In Aion you pick a class and then an advanced class and then for every X levels you get pre-defined skills you can use. In Champions Online you get power points and have (almost) complete freedom to pick the powers you want. Pick a long range nuke, pick a healing power, pick a melee attack, pick a crowdcontrol spell, up to you really. If you think that is the same as having skills handed to you decided by the devs then I dont know what to say....

 

Originally posted by Astralglide

Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero

 

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Originally posted by Yamota
Linear, themepark and casual. The basic three WoW clone recipes and reasons not to buy any MMORPG that is like that.

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And yet in your player profile it says currently playing Aion and Champions Online, 2 games that are even more linear and themepark than WoW.

Next time you attempt (and fail miserably) at being a smartass you may want to check your profile and make sure it doesn't make you look like a total hypocrite.

Just a suggestion.

OH SNAP!

If I wanted to hide what games I play then I would do so. Just because themepark, linear and casual games are inferior (in my opinion) to sandbox, open and more hardcore does not mean they are worse than nothing at all.

Currently there are no sandbox games that I havent played and I am waiting for the next one to be released. I play single player platform games as well, does not mean I think they are great. It is casual fun, like themepark MMORPGs are.

Originally posted by Ruyn

Originally posted by Yamota

Linear, themepark and casual. The basic three WoW clone recipes and reasons not to buy any MMORPG that is like that.

 

Amen.  Never again will I play an MMO that funnels me.  I will also never play a leveling mmo again.  Must be skill based.  Some of you may say that, well you still level in a skill based system.  I say back that the difference is not exponential.  Nothing is more frustrating when trying to play with your friends and being separated by big level differences.  In a skill based MMO you can get together with any number of friends, head in any direction and still contribute in meaningful ways.  This type of MMO also encourages you to enjoy the journey more than the destination.

You can join your friends in a skill based game no matter skill lvl, but why would anyone in their right mind want a lower skilled player along for the ride to leech skill-ups from content that was meant for higher skilled players? your weapon swings will either miss miss miss or do 0.00001% dmg, your avoidance would be pitiful enough to see you die to the creature farting in your general direction, in other words you would be just as much of a hinderance as you would be within a lvl based game, if not more so becuase you have the mindset that "I can go and do anything because I have the skill to do it" buggah it if that skill is 01 rather than 50 or 100 though.

Skill and Lvl are the same when it comes to content, just some ppl are blinkered into thinking that skill based means more freedom, yeah right, only for those that have higher skill based friends to hold thier hands for them.

Reason not to buy it = It look like a game for little kids +3...

Originally posted by quitmoaning

Originally posted by Ruyn

Originally posted by Yamota

Linear, themepark and casual. The basic three WoW clone recipes and reasons not to buy any MMORPG that is like that.

 

Amen.  Never again will I play an MMO that funnels me.  I will also never play a leveling mmo again.  Must be skill based.  Some of you may say that, well you still level in a skill based system.  I say back that the difference is not exponential.  Nothing is more frustrating when trying to play with your friends and being separated by big level differences.  In a skill based MMO you can get together with any number of friends, head in any direction and still contribute in meaningful ways.  This type of MMO also encourages you to enjoy the journey more than the destination.

 

You can join your friends in a skill based game no matter skill lvl, but why would anyone in their right mind want a lower skilled player along for the ride to leech skill-ups from content that was meant for higher skilled players? your weapon swings will either miss miss miss or do 0.00001% dmg, your avoidance would be pitiful enough to see you die to the creature farting in your general direction, in other words you would be just as much of a hinderance as you would be within a lvl based game, if not more so becuase you have the mindset that "I can go and do anything because I have the skill to do it" buggah it if that skill is 01 rather than 50 or 100 though.

Skill and Lvl are the same when it comes to content, just some ppl are blinkered into thinking that skill based means more freedom, yeah right, only for those that have higher skill based friends to hold thier hands for them.

 

What you fail to realise is that skill based systems are open. So you can have one person who has focused on his sword skill and has the same miss/hit ratio than another guy who has high sword and skill X,Y,Z.

For level based games that is not possible. It is your level that decides if you can contribute to the group or not and gaining levels is linear, there is only one way to high level and that is through level 1,2,3.... where as in skill based you can choice to focus on a set of skills over other and then be able to compete on the same level for those areas that you have focused on.

Originally posted by Yamota

 
Skill trees are not mandatory in a skill based games, some devs use it to cheat their way of balancing the game since it is quite challenging to balance a game with is completely skill based.

I was talking about skill trees in linear games. I did agree with you that you was not given full customization though.

What? In skill based games you do not get any dmg modifiers/hp/mana etc solely based on your level. Attributes are usually influenced by what skill you use and not what level you are. In combat it is your skills vs that person skills that decide the outcome, levels have no direct effect.

Thanks, and that was my point. Although you don't have a level beside your head, you gather stats though new skills and these stats will eventually put you ahead of the guy with lower skills/stats. If you're telling me you being maxed out in skills and having the accuracy and defense you usually gather from them versus the guy that's half way though them is fair, I would disagree. I have seen it myself and it plays out no differently then a level based MMO.

Have you tried Asherons Call or recently Champions Online? You can have a character that has some nuking, some melee, some tanking abilities or focus in one. Granted Champions Online is semi level based but still the difference between how that game plays and for example a strictly level based like Aion is huge.

I tried champions in CB.  I tried most of the powers and almost all the ranged felt exactly the same, granted I didn't get past level 12 on each one, still, I expect some form of difference from the start.

In Aion you pick a class and then an advanced class and then for every X levels you get pre-defined skills you can use. In Champions Online you get power points and have (almost) complete freedom to pick the powers you want. Pick a long range nuke, pick a healing power, pick a melee attack, pick a crowdcontrol spell, up to you really. If you think that is the same as having skills handed to you decided by the devs then I dont know what to say....

I think you are misunderstanding me, it's not that it works the same, it's that it will eventually unfold into the same. Replace skills with levels and it's no different. The only difference is complete customization, which in my opinion usually turns out to be highly unbalanced.

In a skill based MMO the guy with the higher stats will usually win, and these are usually obtained through the skill boxes themselves, in a leveling MMO the guy with the highest level will usually win.

And before you started to question me, my entire point was. Skill based games don't always encourage the journey, sometimes they encourage the destination. That was directed a Ruyn.

 

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Sensai

Combat is looking way, way too mmo/hack-and-slashish to me.  Looking to be more of a Dungeon Siege rather than a true mmorpg.  One question though: When did we vote on whether story and everything being voiced-over was more important than actual gameplay?  I didnt get that memo.

 

Wow....is this a joke? Dungeon Siege? Are we watching the same videos? From what I have watched I have noticed a twitch based combat system without an auto attack. And you're comparing it to a game that requires you to hold down your right mouse button to spam auto attacks?

Peter, you didn't get that memo? It said ,

"We’re trying to really get the message out, all of the other stuff is there, it’s just a little harder to demo that. Of course we want to demo the coolest stuff, and things that we feel is new into an MMO, but all of the other stuff is definitely going to be there."

There was also another one saying they want to get out there what makes them different. I'm not going to supply you the quote, if you was truely motived or interested you would have looked it up yourself.

Oh, Hack and Slash =/= Dungeon Siege. Ever try Ryl, Rune, maybe Dynasty Warriors?

Twitch based?  Really?  Was that when the demo op was standing in front of 3 NPCs shooting at him at point blank range and he just, well, stood there and got shot, and his health barely dropped?  Or perhaps he was just twitching so fast my eyes couldnt keep up?  Or maybe it was in the spaceship defense demo where the sith warrior once again just stood in front of mobs, getting hit hundreds of times and his health dropped maybe 5% at the very most?  Or perhaps it was the epic fight as described by the narrator with the jedi knight that was so bland I nodded off in the middle?  And go back and watch the sith warriors health during that fight, see how much it drops in that "epic" fight.  I really have no idea where you are getting a twitch combat system unless you are some how misconstruing some of the smuggler demos.
 

And how exactly do the videos not show a Dungeon Siege/Diablo combat experience?  In the videos, all the player is doing is running right into combat, getting hit by multiple sources, and just keeps on going.  He never experienced any chance of dying, there was no strategy, and the combat was a snore fest unless somehow pew-pew-pew is somehow now exciting combat.  Oh oh, maybe it was all 3 of the sith warriors super special moves that has you stoked.

I know the game is not complete and I really do hope the game is awesome because I love the potential.  But from everything Ive seen, it is simpling porting a single player rpg ala KOTR into a mmorpg, but basically keeping everything the same.  Things like voice overs and whatnot are a waste of time and HD space and only serve to distract the player base from other things.

Originally posted by Sensai

Twitch based?  Really?  Was that when the demo op was standing in front of 3 NPCs shooting at him at point blank range and he just, well, stood there and got shot, and his health barely dropped?  Or perhaps he was just twitching so fast my eyes couldnt keep up?  Or maybe it was in the spaceship defense demo where the sith warrior once again just stood in front of mobs, getting hit hundreds of times and his health dropped maybe 5% at the very most?  Or perhaps it was the epic fight as described by the narrator with the jedi knight that was so bland I nodded off in the middle?  And go back and watch the sith warriors health during that fight, see how much it drops in that "epic" fight.  I really have no idea where you are getting a twitch combat system unless you are some how misconstruing some of the smuggler demos.
 

And how exactly do the videos not show a Dungeon Siege/Diablo combat experience?  In the videos, all the player is doing is running right into combat, getting hit by multiple sources, and just keeps on going.  He never experienced any chance of dying, there was no strategy, and the combat was a snore fest unless somehow pew-pew-pew is somehow now exciting combat.  Oh oh, maybe it was all 3 of the sith warriors super special moves that has you stoked.

I know the game is not complete and I really do hope the game is awesome because I love the potential.  But from everything Ive seen, it is simpling porting a single player rpg ala KOTR into a mmorpg, but basically keeping everything the same.  Things like voice overs and whatnot are a waste of time and HD space and only serve to distract the player base from other things.

Oh damn, yeah you're right that developer was playing the best he could he was doing everything in his power to evade the mobs. Never seen a developer play smart, that video was demonstrating combat. He Didn't kite, he didn't LoS, he just stood there. Given the chance I would gladly demonstrate it for you. Watching the combat looks very similar to WoWs, range vs ranged people are going to stand there versus an NPC.

The combat is going to be kinda boring when you're not the one controlling it. No way in hell would I play like that in PvP. PvE ranged vs ranged, sure, they're just mobs. Look at it this way. The guy wasn't trying to be tricky, he was DEMONSTRATING, flame thrower, stun darts, nut kicks, flash bombs etc, he was even talking about the mobs taking cover as if he wanted you to see that, which you did. What are you expecting the guy to run around like a moron toggling the camera and kiting NPCs , how exactly would the viewers know what's going on? Your DS and Diablo arguement is retarded.

Single Player how? And what potential isn't being used completely in your eyes. I also love your view on voice overs, why does that upset you? It's called moving forward, if SWTOR is a decent game, complete voice over will catch on and it will become the norm. I guess we should be stuck in the past looking forward to more shitty games that bring nothing to the table.  I'm tired of reading, if anything, this will give me more time to actually notice the rest of the world and feel more immersed. Talking NPCs that show emotion? Waste of space, lol. Well, not everybody can have 2TBs.

Originally posted by Hauken

Im prolly gonna buy/try this game when it comes out, but there are some reasons that might change my mind...

1. Heavy instancing
2. Lack of open world (SWG Rage of the Wookies kind of worlds)
3. RMT. I rufuse to pay extra money to be able to compete in a game.
4. Poor crafting system.
5. Lack of diversity within classes. No fun beeing exactly like the other smuggler or bounty hunter.

Not much i guess, but that can be enough for me to stay away.

way to early to make these assumptions when it gets closer to launch with detailed trailers and closed and beta are in full motion then i will say okay i want or don't want tp buy it. i've played kotor and other bioware titles and are some the best rpg in the industry so i have faith this will become one the top 3 mmo's in the market. and for those saying but kotor 2 was broken product it was not by bioware but obsidian.

I also will hold off on this game until after its release. I've checked out the available media and in all honesty it comes across as a game made for PvE/RP types and (no insult intended) towards kids in general.  Unless I'm mistaken Bioware's placing a strict boundary between factions save designated PvP zones completely negates the entire idea of having factions in an MMO.  If I'm incorrect then someone is more than welcome to clarify it.

That said, unless Bioware is going to create an open RvR server I don't see how people think this game is going to make it in the long run considering the entire concept behind the Star Wars saga is about a war. IE- We are gonna kick some Jedi/Sith ass but we can only do it in pre-approved places?

There are a few games coming out next year (APB, STO, WoW Expansion, etc) that do not guarantee Bioware will haul in and retain a large customer base unless they can actually deliver a total MMO product.

*The lack of classes upon release also looks like a hindrance, but I'll go easy on that one since new ones can always be added to the game down the road.