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10/28/09 3:38:40 PM#151
Originally posted by Toquio3 I think you have it backwards. The aurora company is not restricting anyone's freedom. They offer a product, which people are free to purchase or not. That's it. If some busybody bureaucrat with a legion of armed thugs at their command can use force to stop the company from offering it's product, then that is a loss of freedom. Such things are more likely to occur in the "civilized" "moral" social democracies of europe and north america, than they are in China. That's why, in this case, there is more freedom in China than in other countries of the world. Im sorry, we just gonna have to agree to disagree. I dont see a ice cream company (for the sake of argument) opening a shop in paris (again, for the sake of argument) selling chocolate only to boys and strawberry only for girls doing very well, business wise. it can happen sure, but is it likely? no. No but we don't disagree here. It's not about whether it makes good business sense or not. The point is that you are free to try and run this kind of business in China. Whereas in other places you will have people screaming for the police to come and force you to change your business model, or be shot. |
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10/28/09 3:39:40 PM#152
Originally posted by Horusra
Right the wrongs.....good luck with that...countries by nature a Amoral and will always act in their best interest. So to right the wrongs it would have to be in another countries best interest and frankly where China is involved it is not. I agree completely... and I have been to China several times, in fact I was US Navy intel and the PRC Naval analyst for 7th Fleet in the late 90's. But unraveling the issue with Tibet (right now) would boil down to the removal of Chinese forces from Tibet and China again recognizing them as a sovereign nation. (And hell freezing over)
Unraveling the US occupancy of Native American tribal lands... I doubt if anyone knows where to begin... maybe we could just let Leonard Peltier out for starters. Combine that with the Native American tribes penchant for pointing out that no one owns the land... mix in hundreds of atrocities committed by both sides... multiply that by dozens of different tribes acting independent of each other and in some cases different chiefs in the same tribe going against each other and well... you get a headache really fast. 
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10/28/09 3:42:28 PM#153
Originally posted by Toquio3
If you require a webcam to try their product, you can go out and buy one. but limiting your choices because of gender is oppression Your choice is NOT limited. You can play the game, or you can not play the game. That is the choice. |
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10/28/09 3:44:22 PM#154
Originally posted by ozerinx
Your completely missing the point. If the Native American tribes basically protested and told US to GTFO and leave them alone how do you think US will react? Especially with other American citizens in the area being harmed by the native americans. This was the case in Tibet. If you were China what would you do watch your citizens in Tibet be beat up on and become "inferior" people compare to the Tibetan monks?
I am dropping this debate unless someone want to go make a thread about this. You are wrong... seriously... the occupancy of tribal lands in the states is hundreds of years old and made horribly complicated by intermarriage and agreements made between the US and tribal elders and a host of other issues. China has been in Tibet what - 50 years now?
Adn again... when did the Dali Lama sanction violence in Tibet to gain it's freedom?
And do you believe this about the monks? Ever heard of Manchukuo or the Marco Polo Bridge?
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10/28/09 3:45:33 PM#155
Originally posted by rothbard Im sorry, we just gonna have to agree to disagree. I dont see a ice cream company (for the sake of argument) opening a shop in paris (again, for the sake of argument) selling chocolate only to boys and strawberry only for girls doing very well, business wise. it can happen sure, but is it likely? no. No but we don't disagree here. It's not about whether it makes good business sense or not. The point is that you are free to try and run this kind of business in China. Whereas in other places you will have people screaming for the police to come and force you to change your business model, or be shot.
maybe im not expressing my self very well. i dont make a distinction between the chinese policies and their private companies. to me, everything inside that border shares a twisted mentality that spawns these horrible policies and business choices. yes the company is free to impede men from playing female characters. it doesnt mean they should. I shouldnt be free to deny someone something just because they are male or female, or black or white. saying you cant kill is not limiting your freedom, is ensuring everyone else has the freedom to live without fear of being killed by monsters.
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10/28/09 3:46:22 PM#156
Originally posted by Horusra
I fail to see the "hate". According to the news the police came to her house because a gay group was planning a parade along the route and did not want the sign there....heterophobia on their part or maybe Chistianphobia...or sinaphobia So if you dont like to be insulted, it automatically means you suffer from a phobia? Lol. You might want to look up the word phobia. Its the insult they wanted to be removed, it has nothing to do with who the person is that put it there. It could be even a homosexual priest who put it there :p
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10/28/09 3:47:11 PM#157
Originally posted by Toquio3
You assume that people have a right to life. I would say that nature says you do not. |
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10/28/09 3:47:48 PM#158
Originally posted by Toquio3 Im sorry, we just gonna have to agree to disagree. I dont see a ice cream company (for the sake of argument) opening a shop in paris (again, for the sake of argument) selling chocolate only to boys and strawberry only for girls doing very well, business wise. it can happen sure, but is it likely? no. No but we don't disagree here. It's not about whether it makes good business sense or not. The point is that you are free to try and run this kind of business in China. Whereas in other places you will have people screaming for the police to come and force you to change your business model, or be shot.
maybe im not expressing my self very well. i dont make a distinction between the chinese policies and their private companies. to me, everything inside that border shares a twisted mentality that spawns these horrible policies and business choices. yes the company is free to impede men from playing female characters. it doesnt mean they should. I shouldnt be free to deny someone something just because they are male or female, or black or white. saying you cant kill is not limiting your freedom, is ensuring everyone else has the freedom to live without fear of being killed by monsters. Thats just ignorant. |
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10/28/09 3:48:44 PM#159
So if I do not agree with a political party and say that party is wrong I am now insulting them and my view should be removed by the government? So long as it does not promote violence I believe that people have a right to an opinion and to express that opinion.... |
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10/28/09 3:48:58 PM#160
Originally posted by NeverLand7
And who is to say what is right or wrong with what China does in their own country?? |
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10/28/09 3:49:31 PM#161
Originally posted by Horusra
You assume that people have a right to life. I would say that nature says you do not. Yeah well, we are not apes anymore. I like to think we are a bit more evolved than that. we may be pawns in nature's game, but that doesnt mean we should be pawns in our own game.
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10/28/09 3:50:38 PM#162
Originally posted by dterry
Your completely missing the point. If the Native American tribes basically protested and told US to GTFO and leave them alone how do you think US will react? Especially with other American citizens in the area being harmed by the native americans. This was the case in Tibet. If you were China what would you do watch your citizens in Tibet be beat up on and become "inferior" people compare to the Tibetan monks?
I am dropping this debate unless someone want to go make a thread about this. You are wrong... seriously... the occupancy of tribal lands in the states is hundreds of years old and made horribly complicated by intermarriage and agreements made between the US and tribal elders and a host of other issues. China has been in Tibet what - 50 years now?
Adn again... when did the Dali Lama sanction violence in Tibet to gain it's freedom?
And do you believe this about the monks? Ever heard of Manchukuo or the Marco Polo Bridge? So Im confused here. Was it the Dalai Lama or the male native americans who wanted to roll a fem char?
Yes, I think you both totally derailed this thread and are way offtopic with your stupid politic discussion. Not to mention that its completely incoherent. No need to go into that, save it for a different thread. |
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10/28/09 3:50:49 PM#163
so is saying china has more freedom then western countries.
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10/28/09 3:51:31 PM#164
Originally posted by rothbard Have you ever had to actually dealing with businesses in China? From the experiences related by my friends who have actually gone to China and had business dealings there, EVERY business exists because it has the backing of the ruling Communist Party. They have some connection or someone knows someone or whatever, but the businesses exist solely because the State permits it. If you try to open a business that the Party doesn't want you to have (and it gets big enough to get their attention) then you WILL be shut down. Now the Communist Party in China has nothing in common with the former Soviet Communists. The Party leaders in China often seem to be concerned with their country's best interest. They are often concerned with ethical and moral behavior. But never forget they are the PARTY'S morals and ethics. And you had better follow them or you won't be doing business there. China gives businesses exactly as much freedom as they deem fit. And not an inch more. |
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10/28/09 3:51:50 PM#165
Originally posted by seabeast
And who is to say what is right or wrong with what China does in their own country?? Dead students in Tiananmen square perhaps? Personal Freedoms have a price. China is not a free country.
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10/28/09 3:51:50 PM#166
Originally posted by Toquio3 Yeah well, we are not apes anymore. I like to think we are a bit more evolved than that. we may be pawns in nature's game, but that doesnt mean we should be pawns in our own game.
I still require proof of social evolution of mankind...seems we have not changed since the middle ages we just have more ways to kill people. |
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10/28/09 3:53:48 PM#167
Originally posted by rothbard Your choice is NOT limited. You can play the game, or you can not play the game. That is the choice.
It is limiting your choices. By your rationale Jim Crow laws should be considered legitimate. In my country it is even ilegal for a restaurant to require its diners to wear a formal jacket as this would imply discrimination against the poor. Ofc different countries have different standards but that is the point of this thread. The Chinese do impose morality standards upon their citizens despite having a nominally secular government. This is a discrimination issue as it implies infringing on a customers freedom to express through his virtual persona, not because of technical considerations or reasonable standards of respect towards other players.
Just to make things clear... |
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10/28/09 3:57:04 PM#168
Originally posted by someforumguy You are wrong... seriously... the occupancy of tribal lands in the states is hundreds of years old and made horribly complicated by intermarriage and agreements made between the US and tribal elders and a host of other issues. China has been in Tibet what - 50 years now?
Adn again... when did the Dali Lama sanction violence in Tibet to gain it's freedom?
And do you believe this about the monks? Ever heard of Manchukuo or the Marco Polo Bridge? So Im confused here. Was it the Dalai Lama or the male native americans who wanted to roll a fem char?
Yes, I think you both totally derailed this thread and are way offtopic with your stupid politic discussion. Not to mention that its completely incoherent. No need to go into that, save it for a different thread. It was the Dali Lama... he surely loves his ta-ta's.
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10/28/09 3:57:28 PM#169
Originally posted by Horusra Saying something is a sin, is not exactly the same as not agreeing. From a believers standpoint , a sin is pure evil. Also, a sin is stated as fact, never as opinion. But nvm, if you dont even see that difference. Internet discussions ftl :/ |
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10/28/09 3:58:21 PM#170
Regarding the OP, so does this mean that Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 will be banned in China because they let males players play Zoe and Rochelle? ZOMG! I guess that means they will banning Tomb Raider. And Metroid. And Blood Rayne. And Bayonetta. (Actually they'll probably ban Bayonetta for other reasons lol) What else can you expect from a country with the absurd goal of trying to control people's use of the Internet. LOL just noticed the articles states this company has been trying to do this for TWO YEARS. www.boingboing.net/2007/09/26/chinese-mmo-bans-ing.html Must be working out really well for them if they're still trying to make it happen LOL. But you gotta give them credit for being persistent! |
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10/28/09 3:58:42 PM#171
Originally posted by dterry Dead students in Tiananmen square perhaps? Personal Freedoms have a price. China is not a free country. Just dont meet a lot of any dead players online or the foums, perhaps every country should decide what is appropriate and not for their own people huh? |
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10/28/09 4:00:36 PM#172
Originally posted by Alienovrlord
does everyone here remember the hell journalists went though with the internet while covering the olympics?
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10/28/09 4:02:53 PM#173
Originally posted by someforumguy Saying something is a sin, is not exactly the same as not agreeing. From a believers standpoint , a sin is pure evil. Also, a sin is stated as fact, never as opinion. But nvm, if you dont even see that difference. Internet discussions ftl :/
Churches get away with a lot of bs. The Catholic church uses scripture to justify discrimination against women. But thats the reason civilized societies dont allow religion to interfere with political speech or normal democratic life. I agree, anyone is free to do whatever they want in the privacy of their home. Privacy being the key word here, you cant just start burning crosses on your front lawn and expect the neighbors to put up with it. Just to make things clear... |
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10/28/09 4:03:47 PM#174
Originally posted by seabeast Dead students in Tiananmen square perhaps? Personal Freedoms have a price. China is not a free country. Just dont meet a lot of any dead players online or the foums, perhaps every country should decide what is appropriate and not for their own people huh? Kool, so they just want to be left alone to oppress their people? Or in the case of Tibet they just want to be left alone to oppress someone else's people? -At least you are in good company... Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini... they all felt the same way. But we'll let you negotiate for us... "Peace in our time" and all that, right?
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10/28/09 4:03:58 PM#175
Originally posted by Toquio3
so is saying china has more freedom then western countries.
Thats just stupid. (I never claimed that) |
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