So this guy from the UN Philip Alston said that the US is probably breaking international laws by using military drones to target and kill Taliban and Al Queda people.    Now as many of you know, I am against war in general - however, when it comes to Al Queda the gloves should be taken off and we get down to business.   That means use anything at our disposal to kill the people that would do us harm no matter where they are at.  The people of that group that wishes to see the US destroyed.

What the fuck is this UN dude telling the US how to fight a war for?   He says that the use of drones maybe illegal?   I have one train of thought I would like to put into that guys head - "So is what the bad guys doing using suicide bombers killing innocent people in markets and schools by the 10's of dozens "not against some arbitrary international law" regarding how to kill the enemy?"   Funny thing is last I heard a market filled with women and children do not combatants make.   These fierce Taliban warriors who would strap on abomb, hide it under clothing or in a car and then detonate it in a busy market place are cowards...yes cowards.   No it does not take a brave person to kill themselves..it takes a coward to kill themselves, because living is hard, dying is easy...get it.     Anyway, so this UN guy says that what the US is doing is wrong when they use drones to target and kill these pockets of bad guys.

Why is the US envolved with the UN again?

Philip Alstons Statement  <<< clicky

Teala, what makes us different from groups like the Taliban (in theory) is that we DO hold ourselves to a higher moral standard.

We DO NOT lower ourselves to an "ends justify the means" mentality.

We have agreed to abide by a set of mutually agreed upon international laws designed to protect basic human rights.  When we abandon those laws (like we did in Gitmo) we become no better than those we seek to defeat.

I still believe the United States represents the last great hope for freedom and democracy on the planet, but ONLY if we hold ourselves to the high standards that the nation was founded upon.  In that spirit we should welcome challenges to our operating procedure with regard to new military technology because these challenges are part of the checks and balances that help us walk the fine like between strength and tyranny.

Having said all of that, anyone belonging to a terrorist organization pretty much deserves whatever happens to them.

What you have to realise is that Drone attacks are really inefficient. They will kill about 1 taliban to about 10 civillians. The drone attacks on Pakistan are completely unlawful and as far as pakistanis are concerned they are attacking pakistan...

So we attack with our own version of a suicide bomber? Two wrongs making a right?

Originally posted by Enkindu

Teala, what makes us different from groups like the Taliban (in theory) is that we DO hold ourselves to a higher moral standard.

We DO NOT lower ourselves to an "ends justify the means" mentality.

We have agreed to abide by a set of mutually agreed upon international laws designed to protect basic human rights.  When we abandon those laws (like we did in Gitmo) we become no better than those we seek to defeat.

I still believe the United States represents the last great hope for freedom and democracy on the planet, but ONLY if we hold ourselves to the high standards that the nation was founded upon.  In that spirit we should welcome challenges to our operating procedure with regard to new military technology because these challenges are part of the checks and balances that help us walk the fine like between strength and tyranny.

Having said all of that, anyone belonging to a terrorist organization pretty much deserves whatever happens to them.

QFT! 

You see the problem is that Taliban need drone tech. then they wouldn't need to use suicide bombers and then they wouldn't be cowards. Wow, I am totally kidding.
 

Ahhh the UN

U.N. Discrimination Investigator Focuses on Canada, Ignores China, Sudan, Iran

Ms. Gay McDougall, the U.N.'s chief monitor of discrimination against minority groups, and a leading defender of the 2001 Durban conference, just wrapped up a 10-day investigation of Canada by accusing it of failures and "significant and persistent problems." She has never investigated any of the countries listed by Freedom House as the world's worst abusers: not China, Cuba, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Belarus, Burma, Chinese-ruled Tibet, South Ossetia in Georgia, Chechnya in Russia, or Zimbabwe.

www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx

Waste of tax payers money.

UN wont dare go after the Chinese.
 

China confirms Tibetan executions

Two Tibetans have been executed for their involvement in riots in Tibet last year, the Chinese government has confirmed.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8327347.stm

More from the UN

Islamic countries seek to restrict freedom to criticize religions

While unnamed in Clinton's speech, the Organization of the Islamic Conference, a group of 56 Islamic nations, has been pushing hard for the U.N. Human Rights Council to adopt resolutions that broadly bar the defamation of religion. The effort has raised concerns that such resolutions could be used to justify crackdowns on free speech in Muslim countries.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/26/AR2009102603218.html

Originally posted by murdera2k6

What you have to realise is that Drone attacks are really inefficient. They will kill about 1 taliban to about 10 civillians. The drone attacks on Pakistan are completely unlawful and as far as pakistanis are concerned they are attacking pakistan...

That deserves some perspective. Case in point the killing of Baitullah Mehsud. He was killed along with a wife and father-in-law at the father-in-law's house. That could've been a situation where up to 9 "innocents" were jeopardized all for Baitullah and his bodyguards. Do you call that inefficiency? Probably, but until we have drones with sniper rifles and see-through-walls cameras attached, there's some realities we have to face and judge whether or not each strike was justified and if we should continue. Certainly not all of them have been, but you know, it deserves being looked at airstrike by airstrike.

Additionally, one issue we have is that too many of our drone attacks are occuring at the behest of the Pakistani government, rather than all of them specifically attacking aggressors linked to al-Qaeda. Our enemy is al-Qaeda, Pakistan's is any militant carrying out terrorism from those tribal areas. Pakistan is solely interested in the security of their state, understandably, but our enemies aren't always the same in those tribal areas. So the Pakistani definitely make use of the drone attacks, but not necessarily in our particular favor always.

More UN stupidity.

UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report

UN Watch Statement, delivered by Col. Richard Kemp, October 16, 2009, UN Human Rights Council Special Session on Goldstone Report

www.youtube.com/watch

More UN stupidity.

SWITZERLAND'S NOMINEE TO THE UN HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL
AND THE MOAMMAR KHADDAFI HUMAN RIGHTS PRIZE

www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp

Originally posted by Enkindu

Teala, what makes us different from groups like the Taliban (in theory) is that we DO hold ourselves to a higher moral standard.

We DO NOT lower ourselves to an "ends justify the means" mentality.

We have agreed to abide by a set of mutually agreed upon international laws designed to protect basic human rights.  When we abandon those laws (like we did in Gitmo) we become no better than those we seek to defeat.

I still believe the United States represents the last great hope for freedom and democracy on the planet, but ONLY if we hold ourselves to the high standards that the nation was founded upon.  In that spirit we should welcome challenges to our operating procedure with regard to new military technology because these challenges are part of the checks and balances that help us walk the fine like between strength and tyranny.

Having said all of that, anyone belonging to a terrorist organization pretty much deserves whatever happens to them.

Man,what a crock of shit,,their are millions of none terrorist who disagree with you.

Precursor I agree with you, there are many problems with the UN.  As many of the member nations suffer from internal corruption and seek to work their own agendas, so will the UN.

The goals of the League of Nations (upholding the new found Rights of Man such as right of non whites, rights of women, rights of soldiers, disarmament, preventing war through collective security, settling disputes between countries through negotiation, diplomacy and improving global quality of life) and the United Nations (facilitating cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress, human rights, and the achieving of world peace) are noble and I would argue a NECESSARY step in the evolution of the species.

In reality we all know that people are far less noble than these ideals.. but that does not mean that we can stop striving for international cooperation.
 

In this particular instance the PERSON making the inquiry about the legality of these drone attacks is irrelevant.  As a great nation striving for moral action the United States should WELCOME questions such as these because they test our INTERNAL system of checks and balances that should prevent actions that threaten basic human rights.

Originally posted by billynomates

Originally posted by Enkindu

Teala, what makes us different from groups like the Taliban (in theory) is that we DO hold ourselves to a higher moral standard.

We DO NOT lower ourselves to an "ends justify the means" mentality.

We have agreed to abide by a set of mutually agreed upon international laws designed to protect basic human rights.  When we abandon those laws (like we did in Gitmo) we become no better than those we seek to defeat.

I still believe the United States represents the last great hope for freedom and democracy on the planet, but ONLY if we hold ourselves to the high standards that the nation was founded upon.  In that spirit we should welcome challenges to our operating procedure with regard to new military technology because these challenges are part of the checks and balances that help us walk the fine like between strength and tyranny.

Having said all of that, anyone belonging to a terrorist organization pretty much deserves whatever happens to them.

Man,what a crock of shit,,their are millions of none terrorist who disagree with you.

 

Do you think you could be more specific? Saying "what a crock of shit" without any counterpoint just makes you sound like a raving madman.

The United States is far from perfect but I do believe 100% in the principles upon which the nation was founded.  For over 200 years we have continued to evolve toward the ideal, to make the reality match the dream.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Teala, what makes us different from groups like the Taliban (in theory) is that we DO hold ourselves to a higher moral standard.

We DO NOT lower ourselves to an "ends justify the means" mentality.

We have agreed to abide by a set of mutually agreed upon international laws designed to protect basic human rights.  When we abandon those laws (like we did in Gitmo) we become no better than those we seek to defeat.

I still believe the United States represents the last great hope for freedom and democracy on the planet, but ONLY if we hold ourselves to the high standards that the nation was founded upon.  In that spirit we should welcome challenges to our operating procedure with regard to new military technology because these challenges are part of the checks and balances that help us walk the fine like between strength and tyranny.

Having said all of that, anyone belonging to a terrorist organization pretty much deserves whatever happens to them.

Why would you consider a country that is not the most free nor the most democratic nation as a last great hope for freedom and democracy? You do realise that the "land of the free" tag is self proclaimed and is just pushed down american throats to make them patriotic, right?

Enk, you know I respect your comments, but unfortunately America is not as free as some others, in fact we are loosing more and more of our so called freedoms every day.    Our gooberment is corrupt and tyrannical.   As for how I feel about our drones attacking and taking out leaders of terrorist organizations...sorry I do not agree with your beliefs.    I can say at least we are tryingto minimize civilian casualites...I do not see that from the terrorist - they target anyone and everyone - women and children - makes no difference.

Today  >>>  PESHAWAR, Pakistan — A car bomb struck a busy market in northwestern Pakistan on Wednesday, killing 100 people – mostly women and children –

This is the best the terrorist can do is target women and children.   What a bunch of cowards.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Enkindu

Teala, what makes us different from groups like the Taliban (in theory) is that we DO hold ourselves to a higher moral standard.

We DO NOT lower ourselves to an "ends justify the means" mentality.

We have agreed to abide by a set of mutually agreed upon international laws designed to protect basic human rights.  When we abandon those laws (like we did in Gitmo) we become no better than those we seek to defeat.

I still believe the United States represents the last great hope for freedom and democracy on the planet, but ONLY if we hold ourselves to the high standards that the nation was founded upon.  In that spirit we should welcome challenges to our operating procedure with regard to new military technology because these challenges are part of the checks and balances that help us walk the fine like between strength and tyranny.

Having said all of that, anyone belonging to a terrorist organization pretty much deserves whatever happens to them.

 

Why would you consider a country that is not the most free nor the most democratic nation as a last great hope for freedom and democracy? You do realise that the "land of the free" tag is self proclaimed and is just pushed down american throats to make them patriotic, right?

No one pushed anything down my throat.
 

The U.S. has had a LOT of blemishes on its human rights record- slavery and treatment of native americans top the list.

But this nation has also protected the world from what would've certainly been two human rights DISASTERS in the form of world domination by the Nazis in WWII and the Soviet Block during the cold war.

Most importantly, the documents upon which the founding fathers of the United States BASED this great nation were unprecedented, revolutionary, brilliant, and they are still living, evolving documents today.

If you think about the fact that 50 years ago blacks and whites could not use the same WATER FOUNTAIN in some parts of the U.S. and today there is a BLACK MAN in the white house.... that demonstrates that we ARE evolving toward the ideal described by the Declaration of Independece, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

I HATED Bush as a president.  I have frequently been disgusted at the widespread ignorance of world events and obscene indulgent consumerism widely evident in the U.S..... but don't get me wrong.  I LOVE this country because of what it stands for, and I will fight with every fiber of my soul to protect the ideals on which it was founded.  My fight is not against anyone else, but rather the fight to uphold the founding principles that make this nation great... and the fight to keep making the REAL United States match the IDEAL.

It is easy to criticize the U.S., especially after 8 horrific years under Bush... but ask yourself this:

How would you describe the disposition of of nations like Germany and Japan?

The U.S. was pulled into World War II.. a war of agression started by Japan and Germany.  After losing almost half a million people fighting this war, the U.S. emerged as the most powerful nation on the planet.  And yet... instead of EXPLOITING Japan and Germany, we basically helped to rebuild them into free, independent nations (obviously not the DDR in Germany, only BRD).  We still have MANY problems as a nation but I ABSOLUTELY stand by my assessment that the US is the last best hope for democracy on the planet.

When I talk about willingness to give my life for my country, I am not talking about a flag or a piece of land.  I am talking about the following words:

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

Originally posted by Teala

Enk, you know I respect your comments, but unfortunately America is not as free as some others, in fact we are loosing more and more of our so called freedoms every day.    Our gooberment is corrupt and tyrannical.   As for how I feel about our drones attacking and taking out leaders of terrorist organizations...sorry I do not agree with your beliefs.    I can say at least we are tryingto minimize civilian casualites...I do not see that from the terrorist - they target anyone and everyone - women and children - makes no difference.

Today  >>>  PESHAWAR, Pakistan — A car bomb struck a busy market in northwestern Pakistan on Wednesday, killing 100 people – mostly women and children –

This is the best the terrorist can do is target women and children.   What a bunch of cowards.

It sounds like you are suggesting that WE are justified in using a weapon that does massive collateral damage just because the TERRORISTS use this tactic.  To you really think that mindset is going to improve the situation?

The way I see it, everytime we accidentally kill 10 innocent bystanders we have effectively recruited 10 more brothers/fathers/mothers/sons into organizations like the Taliban.  I ABSOLUTELY support killing every single combatant that threatens the US.  I DO NOT support using methods that violate international law to do it.  We MUST hold ourselves to a higher standard or we are no better than those we seek to defeat.

We ALSO must worry about justice and quality of life for those we seek to defeat, or this conflict will NEVER end.

I'm responding to Enkindu, I won't quote to avoid making the quote too long.

That's all irrelevant to the point. The point is that you consider the United Sates the last hope for human freedom and democracy when it just isn't.

Yes the United States was dragged into World War 2, but so were a lot of other countries. I'd say the fact the United States didn't enter the war until they were attacked themselves doesn't really fit the image you're trying to shape here.

Also, just to remind you, the United Sates did not win World War 2 by itself.

But it's all rather pointless as this was quite a long time ago. The people who lived in those times either passed away or are very, very old. Currently all of those countries have new citizens, new leaders, new standards and new freedom.

The United States currently isn't on top of freedom or democracy. The United States ranks number 18 on the democracy index.
The world doesn't depend on the United states for freedom or democracy when quite a few countires have already surpassed the United States as far as freedom and democracy is concerned.

Gameloading, I'm starting to realize you have a mental block with regard to causality.

First with regard to the "one vote doesn't count" stuff and now with this.

Please observe the democracy index:

No. Location Index Category
1 Sweden 9.88 Full democracy
2 Norway 9.68 Full democracy
3 Iceland 9.65 Full democracy
4 Netherlands 9.53 Full democracy
5 Denmark 9.52 Full democracy
6 Finland 9.25 Full democracy
7 New Zealand 9.19 Full democracy
8 Switzerland 9.15 Full democracy
9 Luxembourg 9.10 Full democracy
10 Australia 9.09 Full democracy
11 Canada 9.07 Full democracy
12 Ireland 9.01 Full democracy
13 Germany 8.82 Full democracy
14 Austria 8.49 Full democracy
15 Spain 8.45 Full democracy
16 Malta 8.39 Full democracy
17 Japan 8.25 Full democracy
18 United States 8.22 Full democracy
 

Every SINGLE one of those countries (with the possible exception of New Zealand) owes it's freedom to the military might of the United States- both due to the outcome of WW II and the outcome of the cold war.  Please read up on deterrence.  The U.S. nuclear arsenal still protects the rights of free nations.  If you REALLY HONESTLY do not understand this then I can't help you.

The United States did not win world war 2 by itself. Get it through your skull.

You want to use old events as an example for modern day freedom? Fine.

Without Europe, there wouldn't even be a United States in the first place.

World War 2 happened a long time ago, the people who fought in it either passed away or are about to, The people who currently live and rule the US do not set an example for freedom or democracy.

Originally posted by Gameloading

The United States did not win world war 2 by itself. Get it through your skull.

I never said they did.  Why are you stating the obvious?

The point is that Nazi Germany would have certainly have taken all of Europe (if not the world) without U.S. involvement.  Once again you are failing to recognize basic causal relationships.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Gameloading

The United States did not win world war 2 by itself. Get it through your skull.

 

I never said they did.  Why are you stating the obvious?

 

The point is that Nazi Germany would have certainly have taken all of Europe (if not the world) without U.S. involvement.  Once again you are failing to recognize basic causal relationships.

Because you're the one who called the United States as the last and only beacon of freedom.

Germany would have also conquered Europe much faster and easily if it wasn't for the Canadians, British, Australians, Russians and the many resistance fighters in each of the occupied countries.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Because you're the one who called the United States as the last and only beacon of freedom.

Correct.

Because at the moment the threat of military reponse for the US protects every free country on the planet from forced MUCH less concerned with freedom.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Gameloading

Because you're the one who called the United States as the last and only beacon of freedom.

 

Correct.

Because at the moment the threat of military reponse for the US protects every free country on the planet fro,m forced MUCH less concerned with freedom.

Actually, many european nations do so as well.