Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

How is UO or Darkfall much different then any other theme park progression, when I start from 1 in a skill and end up at 100.  How was the SWG economy so much more sandboxy then FE when 90% of the items in game can be crafted and traded? In FE I have however many choices I choose to use to level.  Its not about the leveling, I can level my pistol skill by harvesting. I can level my Melee skill by crafting.  I can create a complete character through any avenue of gameplay, not just missions, not just killing mobs, not just crafting, not just harvesting, and not just PvP, but in any way I choose.  I have no set class, I have no set skills,  and linearity is as set in this game as pretty much any other game out there.

 

If  FE is to be defined by either of these two definitions

"sandbox - no predefined objective, player driven content, player driven economy/meaningful crafting, laissez-faire (EVE "scandals" serve as great examples of this)
rail-ride - defined objectives, developed content, quest scripted economy,"

 

Then it falls in both categorties.  If that isn't a hybrid then what is?  

 

 

You just contradicted yourself.

In your previous post you said FE offers more paths towards an end "...themepark games as you have a choice to take a countless amount of different roads to reach an end" -- which contradicts with your sandbox definition that there's a predefined objective.

There is no player driven content in FE. That's what I was talking about when I said the world is not interactive enough to call it a sandbox.

It is not player driven economy. In player driven economy there are no vendors that sell you all the material you need to create something. Player driven economy means you need to interact with other crafters and gatherers in order to create something. Player driven economy means you get most of the items only when you trade with other players. In FE, faction rewards are comparably strong to crafted items, and crafted items are made of material sold by vendors.

 

Its true, in the basic form you can buy most base items from merchants.  That doesn't mean much though, nor does it mean the economy isn't player driven.  Just because you have the materials doesn't mean you can craft anything. Not all materials can be bought through merchants, and not all recipes can be learned through merchants.  Some recipes can only be learned through merchants. Some recipes can be traded between players. Some can't.  So if you can get some mats through vendors but some not through them, then no its not a full sandbox, but it doesn't automatically make it a full themepark, does it?  I don't know why your so insistent on labeling it one or the other when its obvious that its both.

 

"The world is not interactive enough"  how do you figure? I've been part of 2 player driven events already,  and sandbox games aren't entirely decided by how many players decide to get their shit together and create things to do. Its not that it isn't possible.  In that same avenue you could say that CoX has a mission creator and therefore since it gives you actual tools to build player content then its obviously a sandbox.  

 

Also, I didn't give you a strict definition of sandbox, the one quoted there was from a previous post.  How exactly are YOU defining sandbox?

Player driven event is not a player driven content. You also used to have player driven events in WoW (fights between Tarren Mill and Southshore) yet it wasn't player driven content.

Player driven content and interaction is when you can ride up to any sort of town, burn down the buildings, and build your own. You can partially do that in FE - in like 5% of the gameplay area. In 95% of the gameplay area, you can't attack other players, nor mission NPCs, nor do anything to structures, your interaction with game world is -- none --.

I see you admit that you buy 99% of the material you need to craft from vendors. And that factions give you comparably strong rewards to crafted items. Best crafting schematics are obtained from faction rewards as well - there is absolutely no interaction needed between players in order to craft the best gear, or mediocre gear, or bad gear.

You can craft everything by yourself. It's only limited by time - still can do an alt to do that right? It's not more player driven than crafting in Lotro where you need a leather from a tailor even as you are a blacksmith - you either use an AH or make an alt. Same here. In fact, you're even less dependant in FE - in lotro you could have only one crafting set, in FE you can improve all your crafts, and it's no problem to put all tradeskills to 120-130 skill (takes a month or two), which is easily enough to support any sort of specialization.

Going by the widely-accepted definition, I'd say it's not - at least not yet.

The good thing is, I find myself not caring... :) Fallen Earth has reminded me that features don't make games just as plots don't make movies.

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

How is UO or Darkfall much different then any other theme park progression, when I start from 1 in a skill and end up at 100.  How was the SWG economy so much more sandboxy then FE when 90% of the items in game can be crafted and traded? In FE I have however many choices I choose to use to level.  Its not about the leveling, I can level my pistol skill by harvesting. I can level my Melee skill by crafting.  I can create a complete character through any avenue of gameplay, not just missions, not just killing mobs, not just crafting, not just harvesting, and not just PvP, but in any way I choose.  I have no set class, I have no set skills,  and linearity is as set in this game as pretty much any other game out there.

 

If  FE is to be defined by either of these two definitions

"sandbox - no predefined objective, player driven content, player driven economy/meaningful crafting, laissez-faire (EVE "scandals" serve as great examples of this)
rail-ride - defined objectives, developed content, quest scripted economy,"

 

Then it falls in both categorties.  If that isn't a hybrid then what is?  

 

 

You just contradicted yourself.

In your previous post you said FE offers more paths towards an end "...themepark games as you have a choice to take a countless amount of different roads to reach an end" -- which contradicts with your sandbox definition that there's a predefined objective.

There is no player driven content in FE. That's what I was talking about when I said the world is not interactive enough to call it a sandbox.

It is not player driven economy. In player driven economy there are no vendors that sell you all the material you need to create something. Player driven economy means you need to interact with other crafters and gatherers in order to create something. Player driven economy means you get most of the items only when you trade with other players. In FE, faction rewards are comparably strong to crafted items, and crafted items are made of material sold by vendors.

 

Its true, in the basic form you can buy most base items from merchants.  That doesn't mean much though, nor does it mean the economy isn't player driven.  Just because you have the materials doesn't mean you can craft anything. Not all materials can be bought through merchants, and not all recipes can be learned through merchants.  Some recipes can only be learned through merchants. Some recipes can be traded between players. Some can't.  So if you can get some mats through vendors but some not through them, then no its not a full sandbox, but it doesn't automatically make it a full themepark, does it?  I don't know why your so insistent on labeling it one or the other when its obvious that its both.

 

"The world is not interactive enough"  how do you figure? I've been part of 2 player driven events already,  and sandbox games aren't entirely decided by how many players decide to get their shit together and create things to do. Its not that it isn't possible.  In that same avenue you could say that CoX has a mission creator and therefore since it gives you actual tools to build player content then its obviously a sandbox.  

 

Also, I didn't give you a strict definition of sandbox, the one quoted there was from a previous post.  How exactly are YOU defining sandbox?

 

Player driven event is not a player driven content. You also used to have player driven events in WoW (fights between Tarren Mill and Southshore) yet it wasn't player driven content.

Player driven content and interaction is when you can ride up to any sort of town, burn down the buildings, and build your own. You can partially do that in FE - in like 5% of the gameplay area. In 95% of the gameplay area, you can't attack other players, nor mission NPCs, nor do anything to structures, your interaction with game world is -- none --.

I see you admit that you buy 99% of the material you need to craft from vendors. And that factions give you comparably strong rewards to crafted items. Best crafting schematics are obtained from faction rewards as well - there is absolutely no interaction needed between players in order to craft the best gear, or mediocre gear, or bad gear.

You can craft everything by yourself. It's only limited by time - still can do an alt to do that right? It's not more player driven than crafting in Lotro where you need a leather from a tailor even as you are a blacksmith - you either use an AH or make an alt. Same here. In fact, you're even less dependant in FE - in lotro you could have only one crafting set, in FE you can improve all your crafts, and it's no problem to put all tradeskills to 120-130 skill (takes a month or two), which is easily enough to support any sort of specialization.

 

In the same avenue you're admitting that you do have player driven content and interactions. I never said 99% of items can be bought by merchants but most all items can be bought via the auction house.  Not all items can be bought at all.  You do not have to collaborate with anyone to be a particularly good crafter.  You didn't need to in Vanguard either. The only difference here is that you get a wide range of skill sets rather then a single one.  That doesn't mean that just because you are able to craft that you don't need to skill your tradeskills up.  In fact, building up tradeskills and scavenge skills are as skill based as any Sandbox game, you work the skill, you level it up.

As for housing and tiers and building and fighting with more user generated content, housing has been said to be implemented, as well as a new tradeskill.  Creating content or building content to have it raided, or player driven doesn't --again -- mean its a sandbox or town sieges in WAR or raids in CoX would make them both sandbox games.  Saying that these few items defines what a sandbox game is, is shortsighted.  Basing the status of the economy off of 3 weeks of game play is a little harsh as well.  You have the tools in this game to create a very good economy, and it will either fly or it won't.  By making the crafting real-time based, it gives a tremendous amount of options of collaboration between crafters to become successful, but doesn't make it necessary.

VG is surely not a sandbox, nor a hybrid. Still it has more sandboxy features than FE. (placeable houses in most of the areas).

What defines a sandbox for a MMORPG is a player driven content. And player driven content is not if you meet up with your clan somewhere. Player driven content means 100% of the gamezone is to be modable. You and your actions can change the world as the others see it.

In WAR, you had a fixed keeps, fixed factions, and it always resetted, so it was rather a large scenerio than a sandbox feature.

FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR. If you conquer the PvP points, the only thing that changes is the NPC's in the pvp town -> to your leader's faction and you can take new missions from them - learn new schematics, buy new items. Nothing new, nothing sandboxy.

Another non-sandbox gameplay feature is, that you are practically useless for your level 45 clan if you are not yet at least level 35. Both for crafting and for PvPing. And as I said before, crafting is capped by your level, so you never max out your tradeskills without first capping your level.

Is there a game that 100% of the world is modable?

Originally posted by Thillian

VG is surely not a sandbox, nor a hybrid. Still it has more sandboxy features than FE. (placeable houses in most of the areas).

What defines a sandbox for a MMORPG is a player driven content. And player driven content is not if you meet up with your clan somewhere. Player driven content means 100% of the gamezone is to be modable. You and your actions can change the world as the others see it.

In WAR, you had a fixed keeps, fixed factions, and it always resetted, so it was rather a large scenerio than a sandbox feature.

FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR. If you conquer the PvP points, the only thing that changes is the NPC's in the pvp town -> to your leader's faction and you can take new missions from them - learn new schematics, buy new items. Nothing new, nothing sandboxy.

Another non-sandbox gameplay feature is, that you are practically useless for your level 45 clan if you are not yet at least level 35. Both for crafting and for PvPing. And as I said before, crafting is capped by your level, so you never max out your tradeskills without first capping your level.

 

So you're saying that its a themepark game with sandbox elements.  I understand... its a hybrid. I said that.

No please re-read this sentence: "FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR."

There's no really such a thing as a hybrid. Game is either a sandbox and supports player driven content, or is a theme park. Sure some are less linear theme parks and some are more, but that's it.

The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it. Fallen Earth is a like a huge concrete immovable castle with a trampoline and all you can do is to push other kids that are jumping too close to the middle.

Originally posted by Thillian

No please re-read this sentence: "FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR."

There's no really such a thing as a hybrid. Game is either a sandbox and supports player driven content, or is a theme park. Sure some are less linear theme parks and some are more, but that's it.

Wait a second, so you're sitting there and telling me, that it does not support sandbox gameplay outside of a certain are, but it allows for sandbox play.  Therefor since its not outside designated areas its not a hybrid.. But if it WAS outside the areas then it wouldn't be a hybrid anyways because then it would be a true sandbox in your definition. 

So you're saying that if I put 5% of my coke in 95% of my water, it isn't a hybrid of coke and water, its just water. It has no element of coke in there.. eventhough its different, it tastes different, looks different, and smells different, theres no such thing as a hybrid (a mixing of 2 gameplay styles) so its obviously just one thing.    I call shananigans sir.  

If you admit that it has sandbox elements, you admit that you can't buy all items from merchants, and you admit that there could be a player driven content and economy, but refuse to accept it because theres no middle ground, then theres really nothing more that I can say.  I think the real problem here is that if you give any credit of hybridization to FE for their achievements then it opens up a whole can of worms on what else could be considered a hybrid. 

Now I have to go home and tell my dog thats half boxer half greyhound that I just found out she's not a mutt after all and that she's really a full bred boxer because %'s of two things in one don't count as hybridization anymore.

Going with the majority here that FE is a hybrid mmo.

But would say: FE Is a Themepark / Sandbox type mmo, instead of using Sandbox as the first word when defining.

FE to me plays a lot like the current SWG with AO game style.

Calling FE a full blown Themepark mmo is by choice on how the player describes the game, since the sandbox definition has changed alot since the birth of UO. Eve Online shows some themepark features as well, but heavily known as a Sandbox MMO.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/vajuras/032008/1421_Sandbox-versus-Linear-Gameplay

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Yes, everything is a hybrid. This way, we won't get anywhere. Every game has theme park features and sandbox features. I was trying to give you enough arguments to think that Fallen Earth in its core plays as a theme park. You got a pvp zone (that could translate as scenerios in War, or ettenmoors in Lotro or battlegrounds in WoW), and then you've got 95% of the game area absolutely immovable, unmodificable, whatever you like it.

Everything comes from either a faction rewards (driven by missions), or crafting (driven by vendors). Sure from time to time there are bits you only have to find or buy on AH, but a player driven economy demands everything to be either made by players or gathered.

In a sandbox game, your gameplay is radically different. But as I said in my first post, I like FE for what it is. I don't like sandbox games. I like theme parks with free open persistent worlds (vanguard).

Its a bit of both, It has quests but you can do your own thing for the most part, alot of quests are not linked like in most TP mmos but also has that feeling for more freedom that SB mmos give.

O and for the record a sandbox MMO is a incomplete mmo, mmos that have no story quest is just lazyness on the dev. part and calling it a sandbox is a way to shadow that fact, FE like I said gives you that freedom feel but also gives you a story to progress through deep crafting, I say the noly thing it lack would be a true play driven economy , as for homes that will come later on wi there new trade skill construction.

What I really want to say is this game is good, very good and has alot going for it, just give it time.

Originally posted by jramsay61

for those who have been playing, what is the attitude over at icarus studios in regards to end game? do you have a feeling it will be left for the community to define, or do you foresee 25 man raids attacking radiation colossals?

 

edit: also, is "gameplay" generally defined? ie...log on, go to crossroads, find mankriks wife, gain xp, go to camp t etc, etc.

Hey he gets it. Congratulations you've moved beyond 90% of the people on these forums and are asking meaningful questions.

Games are best defined by mechanics, features, and how the community plays the game as opposed to how some people, even the developers, think they should be played.

Icarus has a good attitude towards their game. The seem to see it as an ongoing process rather than a static world kicked out the door. There are quests, thousands of them, and they will be most players main means of progressing in the game. It is the easiest route. They have also adopted a more limited public quest model they may be expanding on. The 25 man raids don't seem to be anything they will be focusing on, at least not exclusively.Certainly not to the extent it will be come a main activity for completed or nearly completed characters. The game does have some direction as opposed simply being chaos but I expect much of the future to be decided by what the players choose to emphasize in their play. Most activities will progress your character directly or indirectly. The economy needs further development as does the PvP and character progression systems. There is an absence of classes but that in itself doesn't mean much. Shadowbane had strictly defined classes but literally hundreds of ways useful toons could be built. FE has no classes but only a couple of dozen usable builds at most. Crafting is pretty integral to the game but yoiu can avoid it with some effort. There is an economy and you can make some chips crafting and selling things but if too many people choose to it will be easily flooded with goods. There's not much in the game yet to spend your accumulation of chips on if you chose to amass a fortune. The game is very young and it shows it.

Do you see why the question "is it a sandbox" is meaningless but the question " What does the game consist of" isn't? Keep asking those good questions and don't worry too much about conflicting answers. Everyone sees a game from a different viewpoint. The truth is usually somewhere in the muddle.

Originally posted by Thillian

The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.

No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Thillian

The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.

 

No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.

Yep, pretty much.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Thillian

The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.

 

No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.

Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Thillian

The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.

 

No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.

 

Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.

A sandbox is a game with non linear storyline, non linear character development, non linear world development. Last time I checked, FE fit those. BTW, just because you can do quests doesnt mean you have to complete quests in FE. 
 

Originally posted by Mordrid

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Thillian

The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.

 

No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.

 

Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.

A sandbox is a game with non linear storyline, non linear character development, non linear world development. Last time I checked, FE fit those. BTW, just because you can do quests doesnt mean you have to complete quests in FE. 
 

No a sandbox game is a non-linear game. All MMOs are non-linear games by definition. Some are more linear than others but none is truly linear. Not one. Ever. The term is being misapplied in an attempt to denigrate MMOs some people don't "approve" of and that's not what it means. People need to communicate clearly rather than throwing bullshit labels at everything. If you don't know the origin of a term you cannot really understand what it means even if it has changed which this one hasn't.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Mordrid

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Thillian

The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.

 

No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.

 

Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.

A sandbox is a game with non linear storyline, non linear character development, non linear world development. Last time I checked, FE fit those. BTW, just because you can do quests doesnt mean you have to complete quests in FE. 
 

 

No a sandbox game is a non-linear game. All MMOs are non-linear games by definition. Some are more linear than others but none is truly linear. Not one. Ever. The term is being misapplied in an attempt to denigrate MMOs some people don't "approve" of and that's not what it means. People need to communicate clearly rather than throwing bullshit labels at everything. If you don't know the origin of a term you cannot really understand what it means even if it has changed which this one hasn't.

I guess you were reading the wikipedia definition and now playing tricks here. Re-read what I wrote in the previous post and react to that please before making any more smart and insultive replies.

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Mordrid

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Thillian

The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.

 

No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.

 

Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.

A sandbox is a game with non linear storyline, non linear character development, non linear world development. Last time I checked, FE fit those. BTW, just because you can do quests doesnt mean you have to complete quests in FE. 
 

 

No a sandbox game is a non-linear game. All MMOs are non-linear games by definition. Some are more linear than others but none is truly linear. Not one. Ever. The term is being misapplied in an attempt to denigrate MMOs some people don't "approve" of and that's not what it means. People need to communicate clearly rather than throwing bullshit labels at everything. If you don't know the origin of a term you cannot really understand what it means even if it has changed which this one hasn't.

 

I guess you were reading the wikipedia definition and now playing tricks here. Re-read what I wrote in the previous post and react to that please before making any more smart and insultive replies.

Wikipedia is written by anyone who can access the internet. I'm referring to the actual meaning of the term not what any random person thinks it may be or wants it to be. Trust me, if I was insulting you, you'd know it. I read what you wrote. It's simply wrong. A Rose is a rose is a rose but never a kumquat. I apologize for making smart replies. I don't know how to make stupid ones.

Originally posted by Warjin

Its a bit of both, It has quests but you can do your own thing for the most part, alot of quests are not linked like in most TP mmos but also has that feeling for more freedom that SB mmos give.

Actually, most of the AP missions are linked together in a 5-10 mission chains.

After reading some of Thillian's posts, I for one am very thankful that FE is not a sandbox game.

I get the attraction to the sandbox concept, where anything can be created and anything destroyed. It makes the game seem more real, but at another level I'd say if you want harsh reality then get the hell off your computer and go outside. :) Personally I'm glad I can happily quest or gather or craft without another player shooting me, or the npc I might be trying to talk to. I'd also feel that I would need to play 10 hours a day just to keep up with a changing world.

I like playing MMOs but I also like being able to choose my friends. I sometimes think negative comments about MMO games because they do NOT force grouping or have world FFA PvP or a player-driven economy are from people who struggle to make friends.

In the end, games that allow for many playstyles will tend to succeed. One of the reasons FE is a gem for me is that I can play it my way, at my own pace and not feel somehow that I am missing out.

I keep getting the feeling that the people at Icarus are genuinely clever. I'm quietly looking forward to watching this game grow - and I am sure it will - and take the general mmo community by surprise.

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

 

Yes, everything is a hybrid. This way, we won't get anywhere. Every game has theme park features and sandbox features. I was trying to give you enough arguments to think that Fallen Earth in its core plays as a theme park. You got a pvp zone (that could translate as scenerios in War, or ettenmoors in Lotro or battlegrounds in WoW)more like low-sec space in EVE (if you disagree then you probably havn't been in a pvp zone yet), and then you've got 95% of the game area absolutely immovable, unmodificable, whatever you like it. 

FE = Theme park mmo

( linear , npc driven economy , level based progression, etc.. )

But a good game worth trying

- player driven economy  - not really there yet, but I find myself buying and selling more and more stuff in the AH. I will be making ATV's and Dune Buggies for sale. Can you buy those anywhere else? Nah, I don't think so. Conclusion: there WILL be a player driven economy. Especially if devs make more stuff bound (hate it, but nothing else can solve this...)

- character development: you can say level based, but levels don't mean crap. I didn't use my AP for my last 3-4 levels (have over 80 to spend :)), so my char is almost the same as it was at level 18. Marginal difference. When I finally decide to join my faction, I will be able to formulate in exactly the way I want. No other character will be the same.

- player influenced storylines - I would not be surprised if this would be implemented later (like in Ryzom Rings), we shall see. The space, area is there :)

- optional elements: crafting is optional. Fighting is optional. questing is optional! Factions are optional.

I would not throw around terms like sandbox and themepark, as 1) they have no clear, commonly shared description, 2), some people are so obviously cemented in their own terminology, that they even take it personal at some level if someone tries to argue.

I, for one could not care less for terminology. FE has the above elements, most other current popular shiny copycat (or cookie cutter) games don't.

And we didn't even mention the setting - no elves or orcs here :D

FE is both different, as is both fun to play, which 2 alone combined are the best praises and the greatest achievement these days.

DB