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Originally posted by Daffid011
Well said. I completely agree with everything you wrote... It is clear to me that some of the old school MMOers have lost touch with the reality of the way things really were back in the 'good old days'. |
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Originally posted by Daffid011 I want to make something really clear to you, so please take one second and read this before you formulate your next excuse. Just because people are not agreeing with you, doesn't mean they cannot understand what you say or are incapable of listening to a differening view point. It is entirely possible that your viewpoints are just not compelling and people just do not agree with them. You work so hard to find someone else to blame for your points not being cheered, just like you tried blaming the industry flaws on blizzard.
Some things you have wrong and that I disagree with. Wow is not a game made up of children. Nielsen polling did some research into games and their conclusion was the majority of wow players are adults over the age of 25 See here Not only that, but just look at their marketing. Mr T, William Shatner, Jean Claude VanDamme, ozzy ozbourne and the rest of their endorsed commercial actors pander to adults. Those are not actors teenagers and children or today would care about. Children don't buy chevy trucks which is why chevy made a wow commercial See Here That is why it is so hard to agree with things you say. You blend your opinion as if it is fact and twist in a healthy does of misinformation or blind speculation in an attempt to make your views look strong.
In regards to your points 1) I don't think wow is any easier than old mmos. I will agree that soloing is easy, but no easier than it was for the classes that could solo in old games. MMOs have swung away from grouping towards soloing, but the grouping is still difficult as it ever was. I find GROUP encounters to be much more complex than they ever were in old games. They mechanics and class dynamics are far superior in number and technical aspects than we ever had in the tank and spank days of EQ. There is so much more to pay attention to, abilities to use, synergies, etc. 2) Perhaps you need to define what you call douchebags of the current mmo generation, because honestly current mmos are a walk in the park compared to the assholes that actively hampered old mmos from growing. Seriously in the old mmos it was common place for people to ninja loot, train mobs onto your location to force you to leave an area, guilds to have full on hate wars while cometiting over content and so on. Zones would erupt in flame wars when certain people would simply zone in or walk past each other. Guilds would intentionally lock down encounters to halt the progress of the rest of the server. I could go on and on about the aweful actions of players on PVE servers all day long. Yes what I am talking about is experiences from PVE servers. You need to stop dismissing the past as if it is something to be ignored due to uo having pvp or eq having 2 pvp servers. People in UO didn't need pvp to hide behind, they were assholes, because they could. Here is an example for you: Many PvE servers woke the sleeper to cock block progression of guilds (primal was nearly a must back in those days). The PvP server on the other hand is the only servers community to work together to actually KILL the sleeper which was designed to be unkillable. Furthermore, every negative term used in mmos today was born from player actions in old mmos. There were already industry standard terms that everyone playing mmos understood without explaination long before wow was ever released. Just think about that for a second.
Compare that to todays "douchebags" and all I ever hear is complaints about chuck norris jokes or some other smack talk in a chat channel. I really have to scratch my head and ask how fucking thin skinned all these supposed old school hardcore players have gotten that some chuck norris jokes get under their skin to the point they must cry about it. Seriously have people lost that much perspective that they think players clogging a chat channel with inane chat are worse than people who pick your corpse clean of items, train your group to death and invoke the play-nice-policy to have your guild removed from the zone so they can get a boss encounter your guild already cleared to. I do a giant /facepalm everytime an old school player cries about todays communities in comparison to the old days.
Now that was inciteful. Lets see someone respond intelligently, because you made some excellent points about the playerbases and how they've changed since EQ times. You're totally right though. Certain people hate those playing WOW, yet what the heck can anyone do to you really, besides annoy you a little on a PvP server? Reading CHATTER can be annoying but it can be turned off. People can't train mobs on you, killing you, basically eliminating who knows how many hours of playtime. People can't loot your corpse. They can't prevent you from advancing really? In WOW they can only yell at you for the most part. Big deal!!! I also seriously question the maturity of anyone OLDSCHOOL that doesn't know how to disable a chat channel or type /ignore. WOW players are douches because they clog up a chat channel or dance on a mail box? Thats ruining the game for you? PLEASE!!! When it comes down to it, EQ players were so much worse because they could REALLY ruin your game. Think about it. |
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Originally posted by Josher
That actually reminds of an episode back when I was playing Earth & Beyond. There was this guild on my server who decided that it would be cool to declare a 'guild war' on my guild just because at the time we were one of the biggest guilds on that server. Since this was a 100% PvE game, their arsenal consisted essentially of 'drive-by insults' (ie whenever they would meet up with one of our guildies they would send them a tell full of inuslts and vulgarities). Our guild leader told us to just ignore them and their 'offensive' dies out quickly once their leadership started getting suspended for using obcenities in chat. In a MMO this kind of 'chat griefing' is the equivalent of a crazy person standing on a street corner and spouting obscenities at passerbies. It's slightly annoying but in the end you just feel pity for the poor schmuck. |
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One could argue that WoW saved PC gaming. PC gaming was pretty much on the verge of death before WoW was released, sans games like The Sims. Online titles on the console pull WoW numbers or close to it a lot. MMO numbers became a joke once the consoles went online with their games. The PC really only has one title that can even keep it a float against the console and that is WoW. Valve has contributed a bit with steam and their games, but their titles such as TF2, and L4D are 10x larger on the console than the PC. Blizzard is a PC gaming company and they will be for a long while. They've rejected Microsoft deals to write games for the 360 because the platform does not use keyboard/mouse. Blizzard games have and will always be about easy to play, hard to master. They love to make easy to play games so anyone of any skill level can hop in and have fun however, it's going to take some work and dedication if you want to master it and hang with the big dogs, go pro, play in the high tier leagues, make money playing. I'm willing to bet noone on this site has been on that level in any of their games. I don't think Blizzard has killed anything, except for the lazy development studios. Companies these days can't get by with half done, buggy MMOs with overwhelmingly long time sinks. Blizzard has always been a huge contender in RTS games, making other studios step up their game in order to stay fresh with the fan base. One of the great things about Blizzard is that they do not settle for "well that's just how it is" mentality, they get it right the first time or they fix it faster than you can complain about it on a message board. In the broad scope of things that is. |
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Astralglide
 Elite Member
Joined: 9/03/07
"Nothing says combat instancing like cleavage, nipples, and leather" |
Originally posted by clik A-MEN! Blizzard made playing MMORPGs a socially acceptable activity, no longer relegated to losers living in their mother's basement. Think about how many girls and women play MMO's now- I would say in a large part- due to the popularity and social acceptability that Blizzard has created.
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How many popular and successful western will there be in the next 5 years? One of two. That's it and you know it. It's dead people, face reality. |
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Astralglide
Elite Member
Joined: 9/03/07
"Nothing says combat instancing like cleavage, nipples, and leather" |
Originally posted by GreenChaos How many successful MMO's came before wow? 2-3? Lets see: Everquest, Ultima Online, (Did vanguard come before wow?), DAOC (could that be called successful?) What others am I missing? How are you defining "successful"? I would agree that WoW has raised the bar as to what "successful" means in this market, but you can't blame companies for selling lots of their products. Has apple destroyed the portable music and video market?
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Originally posted by Astralglide How many successful MMO's came before wow? 2-3? Lets see: Everquest, Ultima Online, (Did vanguard come before wow?), DAOC (could that be called successful?) What others am I missing? How are you defining "successful"? I would agree that WoW has raised the bar as to what "successful" means in this market, but you can't blame companies for selling lots of their products. Has apple destroyed the portable music and video market?
GreenChaos's view of success has been massively skewed, ironically, by WoW. Everquest, the ruling MMO before WoW, was considered a phenomenal success when it peaked at 400k subs, eclipsing UO's 250k peak, let alone all the other MMO's at that time. SWG peaked at about 300-350k. All were considered huge successes at the time. When UO became the first MMO to hit 100k, there was much rejoicing. In contrast, Lotro is guestimated to have around 300k+ subs. WaR somewhat less than that, even the "failure" AoC having around 100k or so. All while competing with the WoW juggernaut. Now we have Aion, which wouldn't suprise me to find it has numbers like Everquests(or better). Eve sits with 300k and rising... So yeah, there have been plenty of successes since WoW, particularly when compared to the "successes" BEFORE WoW.
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WoW hasnt killed the MMO genre it actually made ppl aware of this industry and alot of money has gone into developing MMO's, what has happened and this will happen in most areas where there is alot of exposure from one of its products, we are atm in this phase where everyone wants to copy WoW, but this phase will pass and more and more we are seeing projects moving towards other goals instead of reinventing the wheel, we just have to be a bit patient, without WoW our best bet would be to take the half buillt Vanguard and AoC for "as good as its gonna be".
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@ Astralglide How many successful MMO's came before wow? 2-3? Lets see: Everquest, Ultima Online, (Did vanguard come before wow?), DAOC (could that be called successful?) What others am I missing? How are you defining "successful"? I would agree that WoW has raised the bar as to what "successful" means in this market, but you can't blame companies for selling lots of their products. Has apple destroyed the portable music and video market? Look at this rich lush soil that hasn't been tapped into yet! Along comes a weed plant, and strangles any other seed from growth. Look at this untapped oasis in what is otherwise a desert that is computer gaming. Along comes a whale and prevents smaller fish from calling it home as well. The weed dies from monopoly, the whale dies from the same. These are loose metaphors. I had a coworker who spent some time as a woodworking plant operator. He was so efficient at his job he was promoted within 6mo to a supervisor position. 3mo later he was the night manager. 1yr later he was the general manager for a plant that employed 300 people. His ideas and his oversight were unmatched in his sector of work. 18mo after taking over as the general plant manager him and his 300 man team were all out of jobs. They became too efficient for their market. 'Success', by anyone's terms, can very well be the *very* reason for the end of an era. |
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Originally posted by GreenChaos
2004: How many mmos sold over 1 million copies in the first few months of release? Zero. 2005: How many mmos sold over 1 million copies in the first few months of release? Zero. 2006: How many mmos sold over 1 million copies in the first few months of release? Zero. 2007: How many mmos sold over 1 million copies in the first few months of release? Zero. 2008: How many mmos sold over 1 million copies in the first few months of release? One 2009: How many mmos sold over 1 million copies in the first few months of release? Two (three if you count Aion in Korea)
Sales records being broken. Million+ milestones being reached in a couple of months. It sure looks like people want to play new mmos to me. They are running to stores in record numbers to buy new games. I wonder if the problem is blizzard ruining the genre or new games just not being worth a subscription fee.
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So...the general argument behind the past few threads seems to be this: (Please, correct me if I'm mistaken) 1) WoW became a massive success, with subscription numbers exceeding those of any MMO that came before it. 2) The subscription rates of new MMO's more closely resemble those of the older games in the genre, rather than WoW. 3) Because these new MMO's have not exceeded the popularity of WoW, but instead remained at the average pre-WoW level, they are miserable failures, and WoW has killed MMO gaming forever. Is that about right?
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Astralglide
Elite Member
Joined: 9/03/07
"Nothing says combat instancing like cleavage, nipples, and leather" |
Originally posted by pojung
So, WoW is so good that it's bad? Its so great that other companies can't compete and everybody loses? Should companies be required to make games that suck so that "everybody can keep their jobs"? I don't get the logic.
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@ Astralglide So, WoW is so good that it's bad? Its so great that other companies can't compete and everybody loses? From a numbers standpoint (subscriptions), I'd subjectively say this is true. It's simple monopoly theory. Lack of competition results in a decreasing product quality (everybody loses). Competition is good. Should companies be required to make games that suck so that "everybody can keep their jobs"? I don't get the logic. The reference being made here is wether or not WoW has killed the MMO genre because of its success. Wether or not the MMO genre is dead, I'm offering that success is very much a solid enough reason; nothing more. |
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TdogSkal
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 5/11/06
Do not fear death, Death will come a knocking anytime it wants. |
Originally posted by Anubisan
Well said. I completely agree with everything you wrote... It is clear to me that some of the old school MMOers have lost touch with the reality of the way things really were back in the 'good old days'. When you look at the communities as a whole. The old school Communities were way better then the new game communities. Sure the old school ones had their problems and sure every group of people will always have assholes but overall the communities in games like EQ1, DoAC and UO were way better, friendly places to be then the newer games. To say other wise is just wrong. EQ1 the community for the most part was great, how many times did people stop and help others finish epics? Corpse runs? answer questions without calling the other player a noob or a moron. I can name 10 examples of the community helping me right now that happened in EQ1 to myself by non guildies or RL friends. By people I had never met before. I cannot name one in WoW due to never wanting to deal with the "barren chat" morons. So in WoW I keep to my guild and guild allies. Sooner or Later |
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Astralglide
Elite Member
Joined: 9/03/07
"Nothing says combat instancing like cleavage, nipples, and leather" |
Originally posted by pojung So, if only large companies can make MMO's tat compete with WoW, why is WAR (EA Games) doing so poorly? Why hasn't SOE had a game that has even half of the subscribers to WoW? Why is LOTRO (which is a beautiful and very fun game until the end-game grind) doing so poorly in subs? Is it because Blizzard is so successful, or is it because the other companies aren't putting out as high a quality game as WoW? If large companies are to blame, then maybe we, as a community, need to demand higher quality games that can compete with WoW. [Side Note- I played the shit out of LOTRO until the end-game grind. The biggest turn off for me besides that was the closed UI, I am a huge fan of open UI. I also played the shit out of WAR for the first two weeks that it came out before I accepted that they hadn't bothered to polish the game that they designed and released a shoddy product which is unacceptable for a company EA's size]
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Originally posted by TdogSkal When you look at the communities as a whole. The old school Communities were way better then the new game communities. Sure the old school ones had their problems and sure every group of people will always have assholes but overall the communities in games like EQ1, DoAC and UO were way better, friendly places to be then the newer games. To say other wise is just wrong. EQ1 the community for the most part was great, how many times did people stop and help others finish epics? Corpse runs? answer questions without calling the other player a noob or a moron. I can name 10 examples of the community helping me right now that happened in EQ1 to myself by non guildies or RL friends. By people I had never met before. I cannot name one in WoW due to never wanting to deal with the "barren chat" morons. So in WoW I keep to my guild and guild allies. Just a touch of hyperbole there? First you have to ignore all the bad that happened everyday in the old games to see the good. Not such a great start to an argument trying to make the old communities look better. Then you can name some examples of good things, but nothing nice ever happened in wow? Evere? Please.
Let me turn the tables on you. I have had just one instance of a asshole trying to grief me in wow and it was dealt with in a few minutes by a GM. Poof, gone, ban vacation. Now on the flip side I cannot count how many times I had other players in old mmos try to grief me or anyone nearby for no reason at all. It was often a daily event. There was always some small scale event drama going on in the game. Sometimes it ruined your night, sometimes it didn't. Then one step above that was the epic server wide drama. Some guild or group was always screwing over someone else. The drama on EQVault made this site look like kindergardne playtime in comparison. Just look at the design of everquest. The only way to advance in that game is at the expense of other players. If you get access to a limited spawn boss, that means everyone else has to wait 7 days. If you were camping a spot in a dungeon that meant no one else could play there. That is just how it was and any game with that design philosophy is going to generate friction. There is no two ways about it, the old school communities were far worse in terms of anti-social behavior. There just isn't even a comparison.
However, I preferred the mechanics of old school games that fostered more community building. Less instant travel, no auction houses and to a small degree some of the game mechanics that encouraged player interaction. Like non-instanced dungeons and player housing. That all comes at a price though. The more you require players to interact the more you expose players to griefers and just players who just enjoy spreading misery. New games are less social in comparison. There isn't the need for a server wide community in modern games like there was in older games. Most activities are structured around the guild level with small extensions to your circle of friends.
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TdogSkal
Hard Core Member
Joined: 5/11/06
Do not fear death, Death will come a knocking anytime it wants. |
Originally posted by Daffid011 When you look at the communities as a whole. The old school Communities were way better then the new game communities. Sure the old school ones had their problems and sure every group of people will always have assholes but overall the communities in games like EQ1, DoAC and UO were way better, friendly places to be then the newer games. To say other wise is just wrong. EQ1 the community for the most part was great, how many times did people stop and help others finish epics? Corpse runs? answer questions without calling the other player a noob or a moron. I can name 10 examples of the community helping me right now that happened in EQ1 to myself by non guildies or RL friends. By people I had never met before. I cannot name one in WoW due to never wanting to deal with the "barren chat" morons. So in WoW I keep to my guild and guild allies. Just a touch of hyperbole there? First you have to ignore all the bad that happened everyday in the old games to see the good. Not such a great start to an argument trying to make the old communities look better. Then you can name some examples of good things, but nothing nice ever happened in wow? Evere? Please.
Let me turn the tables on you. I have had just one instance of a asshole trying to grief me in wow and it was dealt with in a few minutes by a GM. Poof, gone, ban vacation. Now on the flip side I cannot count how many times I had other players in old mmos try to grief me or anyone nearby for no reason at all. It was often a daily event. There was always some small scale event drama going on in the game. Sometimes it ruined your night, sometimes it didn't. Then one step above that was the epic server wide drama. Some guild or group was always screwing over someone else. The drama on EQVault made this site look like kindergardne playtime in comparison. Just look at the design of everquest. The only way to advance in that game is at the expense of other players. If you get access to a limited spawn boss, that means everyone else has to wait 7 days. If you were camping a spot in a dungeon that meant no one else could play there. That is just how it was and any game with that design philosophy is going to generate friction. There is no two ways about it, the old school communities were far worse in terms of anti-social behavior. There just isn't even a comparison.
However, I preferred the mechanics of old school games that fostered more community building. Less instant travel, no auction houses and to a small degree some of the game mechanics that encouraged player interaction. Like non-instanced dungeons and player housing. That all comes at a price though. The more you require players to interact the more you expose players to griefers and just players who just enjoy spreading misery. New games are less social in comparison. There isn't the need for a server wide community in modern games like there was in older games. Most activities are structured around the guild level with small extensions to your circle of friends.
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree because i feel that the older MMO communities had alot more socializing then the newer MMOs. I also think that the older MMO gameplay prompted better communities because players had to rely on other players to advance forcing them to "play nice" for the most part. Sooner or Later |
Originally posted by TdogSkal Just a touch of hyperbole there? First you have to ignore all the bad that happened everyday in the old games to see the good. Not such a great start to an argument trying to make the old communities look better. Then you can name some examples of good things, but nothing nice ever happened in wow? Evere? Please.
Let me turn the tables on you. I have had just one instance of a asshole trying to grief me in wow and it was dealt with in a few minutes by a GM. Poof, gone, ban vacation. Now on the flip side I cannot count how many times I had other players in old mmos try to grief me or anyone nearby for no reason at all. It was often a daily event. There was always some small scale event drama going on in the game. Sometimes it ruined your night, sometimes it didn't. Then one step above that was the epic server wide drama. Some guild or group was always screwing over someone else. The drama on EQVault made this site look like kindergardne playtime in comparison. Just look at the design of everquest. The only way to advance in that game is at the expense of other players. If you get access to a limited spawn boss, that means everyone else has to wait 7 days. If you were camping a spot in a dungeon that meant no one else could play there. That is just how it was and any game with that design philosophy is going to generate friction. There is no two ways about it, the old school communities were far worse in terms of anti-social behavior. There just isn't even a comparison.
However, I preferred the mechanics of old school games that fostered more community building. Less instant travel, no auction houses and to a small degree some of the game mechanics that encouraged player interaction. Like non-instanced dungeons and player housing. That all comes at a price though. The more you require players to interact the more you expose players to griefers and just players who just enjoy spreading misery. New games are less social in comparison. There isn't the need for a server wide community in modern games like there was in older games. Most activities are structured around the guild level with small extensions to your circle of friends.
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree because i feel that the older MMO communities had alot more socializing then the newer MMOs. I also think that the older MMO gameplay prompted better communities because players had to rely on other players to advance forcing them to "play nice" for the most part.
Save your digits to intense bleeding. They majority has spoken. They want MMO's a monkey on meth can play. |
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Originally posted by Astralglide
Yeah, I'm sure THIS isn't a stereotype and insinuating fact right? I started playing MMO's (EQ) when I was in the military...on a base, after doing a tour in the middle east mind you. A far cry from mom and dad's basement wearing a bathrobe and crushing a box of crispy creams while questing. |
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Originally posted by TdogSkal
Actually I agree with most of this. I have some very fond memories of the people I played with then, just like I do now. For example, SOE had to create "The Play Nice Policy" in direct response to players not playing nice with each other. That pretty much dispells any theory that game mechanics forced players to play nice, because obviously they were not and additional rules and GM intervention were required. This well over a year after the games release.
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Astralglide
Elite Member
Joined: 9/03/07
"Nothing says combat instancing like cleavage, nipples, and leather" |
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Yeah, I'm sure THIS isn't a stereotype and insinuating fact right? I started playing MMO's (EQ) when I was in the military...on a base, after doing a tour in the middle east mind you. A far cry from mom and dad's basement wearing a bathrobe and crushing a box of crispy creams while questing. The sterotype SHOULD be insulting, and I am glad that it is fading away (you're looking at a guy who used to RP in highschool and still thinks that Legend of the Red Dragon was an awesome online game). All I'm saying is that those stereotypes still exist but are fading away due to the popularity of games like WoW
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girlgeek
 Elite Member
Joined: 8/14/07
“Mickey Mouse to a three-year-old is a six-foot-tall RAT!” |
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Save your digits to intense bleeding. They majority has spoken. They want MMO's a monkey on meth can play.
The saddest thing about that statement is....a lot of them ARE monkeys on meth.
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TdogSkal
Hard Core Member
Joined: 5/11/06
Do not fear death, Death will come a knocking anytime it wants. |
Originally posted by Daffid011
Actually I agree with most of this. I have some very fond memories of the people I played with then, just like I do now. For example, SOE had to create "The Play Nice Policy" in direct response to players not playing nice with each other. That pretty much dispells any theory that game mechanics forced players to play nice, because obviously they were not and additional rules and GM intervention were required. This well over a year after the games release.
The "Play Nice Policy" was direct at the PvP servers not the PvE servers. Sure it was used on the PvE server but in over 7 years of playing on and off I rarely had issues with other players on my server. I was in what you call an "Elite Guild" even though we did not act that way. Sure we had our rivals due to boss spawns and then in PoP with flagging but overall the community was great. AGAIN OVERALL the community was great. People dropped what they were doing to help others get epics, get corpses, answer questions and even help get items. My guild stopped and helped so many people get epics on the way to raid targets, it is not even funny and I am talking pre PoP. Sooner or Later |
Originally posted by Loricane
Yes that is right. Times have changed, standards have changed. What use to be good or great is now sucky. |
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