When checking out the next game im going to delve into crafting is not one of my personal prerequisites - for me if a game is fun then it's fun, if not it's not.  Either way, crafting is not going to change that.  In saying that once I find a game I want to spend the next few months with crafting now gets a bigger role in my gamplay.  Unfortunately there have not been many games where the crafting has taken, IMO, even an average level development.

Do I want it to be so ridiculously easy that anyone can power level their craft in a day - NO.  I also don't want it to be so obsurdly difficult that only those with a 24/7 commitment to their game can master.  Am I asking too much?

I'll start with the basics, for anyone unfamiliar with crafting in an MMO.  Your player learns a craft(s), either that will benefit your class, or perhaps for financial gain.  Basic crafts involve making armour/weapons and cooking food (for buffs or regen) also similar is alchemy but designed more around mixing potions.

These can get broken down to more specific crafts depending on the game. Tailoring, Leatherworking, Blacksmithing ... this list could potentially go on forever if enough thought is put into it, but too much so and with limits on crafts you can have they can become too specific.  The other side of crafting is enhancements to items, wether they are quest rewards, dungeon drops, or crafted items having the ability to add stats to items is  a plus.

You need materials to make something (duh Skunk), the dev's choice is to allow gathering of all materials available for everyone or to make gathering another craft - again depending on the level of detail determines how this is played.

Some other benefits for having a craft is that your player may obtain a small advantage to levelling a craft, in the form of a stat increase or a passive ability.

Sounds fun, but where do the pitfalls lie.

Unfortunately, most crafting falls short on the usage of the items you can craft.  I believe that if you are making a L20 sword for you toon you want the sword to of decent quality not the bottom of the barrel s@&t that most of the L18 are better than anyway, and I don't think it should be the ducks nuts either (that should go to dungeon drops/group quests), but it should be at a healthy towards the top of the pile quality.  Something that you would be happy to use for a while.

Levelling you craft involves 2 main concepts (if someone develops a third - that is actually decent - put it in a game that is going to sell. Sso many great ideas go into super low budget indy games that don't reach most of us).  Craft items and recieve a point (skill-up) based on a random % roll that compares your current skill level and the level of the item you are crafting or craft item and recieve a set XP for your craft and same as your toon when the bars is full you craft levels.  Both can work if designed properly.

Materials needed.  This can be one of the biggest downfalls in crafting.  Let's say you are making the before mention crappy L20 sword.  You need 4 iron bars and depending on the game something easy to obtain but in a zone with mobs way to high for your level or something with a really low drop rate from mobs that are fairly easy to kill.  This is where the auction house usually comes to play.  Could this be avoided - yes, and it should.  IMO, if you are making something for your level then the gathered mats should be from where you would be questing/killing and the materials should not be that hard to come by that you spend time gold farming to buy the mat instead of farming thae mat  *cough* AION Flux *cough*.

Lastly, how much the craft repeats itself is in most parts identical the to level from 1-100, and then from 101-200 and so on is identical items and mats but with the new base material eg.  1-10 IRON Gloves need 3 IRON + other stuff, 11-20 IRON Boots need 4 Iron + other stuff (same stuff as for boots), 101-110 SILVER Gloves need 3 SILVER + other stuff (yup same stuff), 111-120 SILVER Boots need 4 SILVER + other stuff (nuff said).  While obviously this means you only have to design a portion of the craft then rinse and repeat 3-4 more times it kinda makes it feel lame (more so if your a re not quite sure about this game yet).

The one good thing I believe most games with crafting have gotten right is the cooking.  Simple steps, learn cooking, learn the first few recipes, go gather some mats, maybe buy some additives (salt, sugar) however I personally don't want to see that you need to buy an additive for every recipe, some things taste awesome au natural, cook food, skill-up, eat food.  And suprisingly enough most games with cooking have unique recipes with different mats all the way from start to finish.

All in all it sounds pretty simple, but if that is so then why are there so many different games all following similar styles of unpopular - or jsut useless crafting.  My personal thoughts are that crafting doesn't make or break a game - the game itself does - so why spend to much time and $$ on such a minor part of the game.  I get it, $$ talks, and most gamers are unlikely to cancel their subs to a really fun game purely cause the crafting is average at best.

As always I welcome any thoughts/opinions/flames about what I have written as well as any opinions in general about the current topic.

The problem we have run into with crafting in MOST games, unless it is a highly focused crafting game to begin with, is that crafting is done as kind of an afterthought to the rest of the gameplay and it is thrown in with the basic idea of "how can we make crafting as  much of a time sink for players as possible while requiring the elast work on our part as possible." Sad as it is, crafting is very often treated as nothing more than something for you to waste endless hours doing just to keep you in the game and keep subs up, while accomplishing very little, but still needing it in order to stay on par with other players gearwise.Thats why you see the constant repeating cycles of itemA = x materials + x additive, level up and now ItemB = xmaterials(+1) + x additive. What i would really like to see done with crafting is for devs to implement some form of ACTUAL crafting. Rather than just putting things on a timer where if you have the right materials, you simply click a button and wait for the timer to finish and poof theres your item. What i mean is making it a bit more realistic and adding in some realistic control of the crafting process. For example crafting a weapon requiring you to actually manually control the hammering & shaping of the metal, heating it to the correct temperatures, wrapping the leather, stringing the bow properly, etc with deatiled mouse and button controls where if you dont perform the actions smoothly and accurately at the proper times, your crafting sucks. Make it more of an actual "craft" requiring some real practice and skill to get better and faster and more advanced, rather than just a numbers game on a timer.

Such a thing would also allow you to make more highly customizable stuff too. For example, in woodworking, say carving out a wooden staff, add in both functional and purely cosmetic rune designs or something of the like which you actually carve into the wood freehand with your mouse. in the process of making it you could have some freedom to add slight variations to the overall design to make it look exactly how YOU want your weapon to look, giving it a personal touc and signature, while also having to have certain base requirements (ie specific runes carved into it that add the required effects that make it have the effects it does). Or when forging & shaping your set of plate mail, you can etch designs and slight differences into the actual shaping/frills of the armor, some of which are purely for your own personal signature on it, some to add variation to the looks, and some which add actual magical effects (stats, skill+, resists, etc).

*walls of text crit you for 102267 damage*

*you can use the topic res chamber*

Originally posted by kaiser3282

 For example crafting a weapon requiring you to actually manually control the hammering & shaping of the metal, heating it to the correct temperatures, wrapping the leather, stringing the bow properly, etc with deatiled mouse and button controls where if you dont perform the actions smoothly and accurately at the proper times, your crafting sucks. Make it more of an actual "craft" requiring some real practice and skill to get better and faster and more advanced, rather than just a numbers game on a timer.

Oooh - I like it.

In this respect you might not needed to have skill-ups the skill-up comes from your own personal skill level (obviously difficulty balances would need to be considered, but that is the major part of everything else in a game).

You could also implement 'tests'  where you are required to make specific items either in a time frame and/or to a minimum quality to prgress to the level of your trade.

Again, great idea.

I usually spend a bigger amount of my game time on crafting than on adventuring because that is what I enjoy the most in games.

You seem to be saying that crafting is irrelevant in most games, well that is untrue, EQ 2, Vanguard, Horizons, Fallen Earth are some of the games that imo got the crafting right.

I don't know if you play or played any of these games, but in EQ 2 and Vanguard, you fell lik you're really working on your crafting because it's got the same leveling concept as your adventuring level, you gain exp and raise your levels, it takes time to create each item because you are following a bar on the screen which fills up, but at the same time you can miss your craft and lose mats because the fire overheated your sword, or you put too much water or whatever reasont hat is. But you also have skills to counter that, heated item? Pour water on it, you have skills that will let you counter the bad things that happen.

Horizons imo is the game that got the crafting spot on, if all games follow it's example, we would have perfect crafting in all games. The system was centered around crafting, it was well thought, it had a good balance between harvesting and crafting which is important to me.

Fallen Earth also has a good crafting system, you can basically craft everything in the game. Some people say it's too easy and everyone can do it. I don't agree with that because it's time consuming, not everyone will want to wait for over 40 hours to get their motorcycle done, so they will just buy it from the crafters. In FE, there is no progressions bar per say, but every item takes time to make, you get the mats, you buy the recipes, you start making the item and it will progress while you're online or offline. In average, items take 10-15 minutes to make, some less and some more. But I think because of the time it takes to collect mats and make items, it's not accessible to everyone, and that is why only people who will enjoy crafting will do it to the end.

So in conclusion, I do think that crafting plays an important role in a lot of games, even games with crafting seems to be unimportant, you would be surprised at how important it could be.

Originally posted by kaiser3282

The problem we have run into with crafting in MOST games, unless it is a highly focused crafting game to begin with, is that crafting is done as kind of an afterthought to the rest of the gameplay and it is thrown in with the basic idea of "how can we make crafting as  much of a time sink for players as possible while requiring the elast work on our part as possible." Sad as it is, crafting is very often treated as nothing more than something for you to waste endless hours doing just to keep you in the game and keep subs up, while accomplishing very little, but still needing it in order to stay on par with other players gearwise.Thats why you see the constant repeating cycles of itemA = x materials + x additive, level up and now ItemB = xmaterials(+1) + x additive. What i would really like to see done with crafting is for devs to implement some form of ACTUAL crafting. Rather than just putting things on a timer where if you have the right materials, you simply click a button and wait for the timer to finish and poof theres your item. What i mean is making it a bit more realistic and adding in some realistic control of the crafting process. For example crafting a weapon requiring you to actually manually control the hammering & shaping of the metal, heating it to the correct temperatures, wrapping the leather, stringing the bow properly, etc with deatiled mouse and button controls where if you dont perform the actions smoothly and accurately at the proper times, your crafting sucks. Make it more of an actual "craft" requiring some real practice and skill to get better and faster and more advanced, rather than just a numbers game on a timer.

Such a thing would also allow you to make more highly customizable stuff too. For example, in woodworking, say carving out a wooden staff, add in both functional and purely cosmetic rune designs or something of the like which you actually carve into the wood freehand with your mouse. in the process of making it you could have some freedom to add slight variations to the overall design to make it look exactly how YOU want your weapon to look, giving it a personal touc and signature, while also having to have certain base requirements (ie specific runes carved into it that add the required effects that make it have the effects it does). Or when forging & shaping your set of plate mail, you can etch designs and slight differences into the actual shaping/frills of the armor, some of which are purely for your own personal signature on it, some to add variation to the looks, and some which add actual magical effects (stats, skill+, resists, etc).

Your ideas are very good and they are things I would love to see in an mmo. However that level of actuall player skill doesnt even exist in the basic gameplay of mmos. The combat in most mmos is only marginally better than the "click a button and wait" approach that is used for crafting. In other words I would like to see your ideas applied to the entire game and not just the crafting.

Originally posted by Golarum

I usually spend a bigger amount of my game time on crafting than on adventuring because that is what I enjoy the most in games.

You seem to be saying that crafting is irrelevant in most games, well that is untrue, EQ 2, Vanguard, Horizons, Fallen Earth are some of the games that imo got the crafting right.

I don't know if you play or played any of these games, but in EQ 2 and Vanguard, you fell lik you're really working on your crafting because it's got the same leveling concept as your adventuring level, you gain exp and raise your levels, it takes time to create each item because you are following a bar on the screen which fills up, but at the same time you can miss your craft and lose mats because the fire overheated your sword, or you put too much water or whatever reasont hat is. But you also have skills to counter that, heated item? Pour water on it, you have skills that will let you counter the bad things that happen.

Horizons imo is the game that got the crafting spot on, if all games follow it's example, we would have perfect crafting in all games. The system was centered around crafting, it was well thought, it had a good balance between harvesting and crafting which is important to me.

Fallen Earth also has a good crafting system, you can basically craft everything in the game. Some people say it's too easy and everyone can do it. I don't agree with that because it's time consuming, not everyone will want to wait for over 40 hours to get their motorcycle done, so they will just buy it from the crafters. In FE, there is no progressions bar per say, but every item takes time to make, you get the mats, you buy the recipes, you start making the item and it will progress while you're online or offline. In average, items take 10-15 minutes to make, some less and some more. But I think because of the time it takes to collect mats and make items, it's not accessible to everyone, and that is why only people who will enjoy crafting will do it to the end.

So in conclusion, I do think that crafting plays an important role in a lot of games, even games with crafting seems to be unimportant, you would be surprised at how important it could be.

Yeah EQ2 is what im currently playing an dthe crafting system in it is actually pretty decent, does require a bit more skill & control to succeed (hitting the correct buttons to impact the progress vs durability vs chance to fail), and you do need to counteract some of teh faults by opressing the right key when one of them pops up. And as you mentioned with the leveling up of the skill, as well as finding recipe books and having some interchangeable materials, adds something to it. Its a great start, though i would like them to take it a little bit further and at least a little bit more actual control/realism to the process. as i said, its a good start though.

As for the above comment about these types of mechanics throughout the game, i agree 100% and have been posting about the same types of things involving battle mechanics as well, but just stuck to the crafting part for this thread :-P i get extremely bored with the same old battle mechanics (basically sit there, tab target something, and spam hotkeys and just hope that your level & gear > than what youre fighting, but no actual skill involved) being used over and over again in every game. dont know who decided that should be the standard for almost all MMOs, but i wish it would change too. games liek Chronicles of Spellborn and Fallen Earth are a nice move away from that system.

The OP needs to realize it is more than "just a game",the game you choose decides how much crafting should be involved.MMORPG's SHOULD involve crafting,and it should be done on the same scale as the rest of the game.

If you just want an Action mmo or a RTS mmo or a FPS mmo that is different.If you decide an RPG is the genre you like,then crafting should be in the mix,otherwise you do not really like a RPG you are suited for a different genre.

I mean it would be like saying i love sports in general,but the type of sport you like, determines  the make up of that sport/game.You can't say you like hockey but hate body checking or hate ice.

You can't say you like baseball but hate running and hate grass.

You can't say you like Football but hate dirt and hate body contact and hate running.

In other words,to hate something that is in the very core make up of a genre is redefining it,that is not right.You cannot redefine what is already established,anything different is just that,it is a totally different genre.

Originally posted by Wizardry

The OP needs to realize it is more than "just a game",the game you choose decides how much crafting should be involved.MMORPG's SHOULD involve crafting,and it should be done on the same scale as the rest of the game.

If you just want an Action mmo or a RTS mmo or a FPS mmo that is different.If you decide an RPG is the genre you like,then crafting should be in the mix,otherwise you do not really like a RPG you are suited for a different genre.

I mean it would be like saying i love sports in general,but the type of sport you like, determines  the make up of that sport/game.You can't say you like hockey but hate body checking or hate ice.

You can't say you like baseball but hate running and hate grass.

You can't say you like Football but hate dirt and hate body contact and hate running.

In other words,to hate something that is in the very core make up of a genre is redefining it,that is not right.You cannot redefine what is already established,anything different is just that,it is a totally different genre.

I dont recall crafting ever being a prerequisite to being an RPG, in fact was rarely ever seen in actual RPGs until MMOs came about, and was added in as just another feature to add to the games depth and give people more things to do. It certainly doesnt make or break something being an rpg, and even if crafting had never been implemented in any of them, they would still be rpgs. Thats like saying if he doesnt like questing he doesnt like mmorpgs... but you could easily just login and play a game and go kill stuff without ever questing and still enjoy the game/genre. He didnt really say anything about being against crafting either. He simply stated that it is a small thing when deciding on wether or not to play a game, and then after choosing a game and getting into the crafting aspect of it, its the same old recycled system over and over again.

Cheers Kaiser,

That is pretty much exactly what I said and meant - and in any respect it is only my opinion about crafting and the pros/cons as I see them.  I might not fully understand some reasoning or have slightly different feeling towards different styles, but hey it is my opinion afterall.

I think one thing that can be agreed on by most (not all) is that there are a lot of ways that crafting could be improved in a majority of games with fairly simple adjustments and bit more thought in the design/development process.

If the game is supposed to a RPG then I can't understand why there should be lots of manual clicks, gestures, etc that the player must perform in order to do anything in the game.  If it is a RPG then shouldn't it be the player's character's skill that determines the outcome, instead of the player's manual dexterity in the real world??

Originally posted by Wizardry

The OP needs to realize it is more than "just a game",the game you choose decides how much crafting should be involved.MMORPG's SHOULD involve crafting,and it should be done on the same scale as the rest of the game.

If you just want an Action mmo or a RTS mmo or a FPS mmo that is different.If you decide an RPG is the genre you like,then crafting should be in the mix,otherwise you do not really like a RPG you are suited for a different genre.

I mean it would be like saying i love sports in general,but the type of sport you like, determines  the make up of that sport/game.You can't say you like hockey but hate body checking or hate ice.

You can't say you like baseball but hate running and hate grass.

You can't say you like Football but hate dirt and hate body contact and hate running.

In other words,to hate something that is in the very core make up of a genre is redefining it,that is not right.You cannot redefine what is already established,anything different is just that,it is a totally different genre.

An MMO is more than just a game? Ermmm no it isnt. Thats precisely all it is. Its a game and nothing more than that.

As Kaiser above me said crafting is also not a requirement in any roleplaying game. The vast majority of rpgs that I played before mmos had no crafting in them. Why would they? I was playing the role of the hero (or heroes) of the story and that didnt involve sitting around knitting sweaters, making weapons or crafting armour. Some of them did but not all of them. Thats the job of the ordinary townfolk. The adventurers do the adventuring and the people (npcs) dedicated to their trade (ie the local blacksmith, tailor, leatherworker etc) do the crafting and provide their goods to adventurers.

So really saying that anyone who doesnt like crafting shouldnt really be playing rpgs is clearly a pretty daft thing to come out with. Sorry but its complete nonsense. Crafting has simply become an accepted and expected feature in MMO's because most players like to feel that they are in an alternate world, even though most of them are nothing more than linear stories with no real player choice or decision making. As all MMO's are purely about slaughtering things into infinity it can be a welcome relief for some to participate in something more peaceful......despite the fact that the stuff they are crafting is simply to help them slaughter stuff more easily.

Game developers are often eager to implement these crafting features into their games because they are always a massive time sink so it keeps people in the game handing over their money for longer. They are also usually pretty simplistic so that anyone can jump in and get addicted to it (more subs for them). Afterall no thought is ever required. You just get the items together, click a button and sit there staring at a loading bar creep up like a mindless zombie. Even a 5 year old can become a master blacksmith! People feel drawn to do it because its built on the same levelling progression system that the rest of the game is built on. Its just another treadmill that MUST be followed to the end. Some people though choose not to get suckered into the crafting hamster wheel as they prefer to move around and see the rest of the game world. Crafting is really just there to slow the players progress down and keep them in the game for longer. Otherwise they will reach the end of the story sooner and find that the MMO is really not much different to a single player game. Then they leave to play something else.......as well they should because an MMO is not a world to live in at all. Its just a game that you get charged large amounts of money to play.

Originally posted by rothbard

If the game is supposed to a RPG then I can't understand why there should be lots of manual clicks, gestures, etc that the player must perform in order to do anything in the game.  If it is a RPG then shouldn't it be the player's character's skill that determines the outcome, instead of the player's manual dexterity in the real world??

Morrowind and Oblivion are roleplaying games but they require player skill AND character skill to play them.

Severance was also a roleplaying game that required the player to use some pretty complex timed key combinations to pull off different moves. It was actually very challenging and difficult to play, so when you defeated an opponent it was very rewarding because you know that YOU won the battle rather than the computer. You could aim for specific body locations and potentially shatter weapons, break shields or severe limbs in that game (hence the name I guess) which was pretty awesome. Each strike from a weapon actually left a cut mark on your target. I threw my axe at a goblin once and actually chopped half of its head off.

Gothic 1, 2 and 3 are roleplaying games that also rely on player dexterity to play.

The words "roleplaying game" do not mean "No player skill required". Not everyone wants the computer to play the game for them. You might like to sit back and watch your computer play "War of the Calculators" but other people like a bit more involvement in their games.

Neonwire, you are right about RPG doesnt mean no player skill, but I dont think it is a fair system in an MMO to make a crafting skill based off player dexerity. Just because I have fat fingers and stiff joints doesnt mean I should be failing my crafting skills.

There is a difference between issuing a "command" to your character to throw an axe and decapitate a goblin, versus manually aiming a crosshair and clicking a button to do it.  If the player has horrendous aim/dexterity/arthritis/etc it should have no effect whatsoever if he is supposedly playing the part of a master axe thrower.   Whether or not people like to play oblivion is not the point.   Twitch is out of place in an actual RPG. 

P.S. As for Oblivion, this article www.somethingawful.com/d/news/asshole-physics-meet.php pretty much sums up all there is to say about it.

Originally posted by Mordrid

Neonwire, you are right about RPG doesnt mean no player skill, but I dont think it is a fair system in an MMO to make a crafting skill based off player dexerity. Just because I have fat fingers and stiff joints doesnt mean I should be failing my crafting skills.

Yeah but it depends on the game you play doesnt it. If you come across a game that requires quicker reactions than what you can muster then you have the choice to play an easier game instead. It doesnt mean that ALL rpgs should be slow paced though.

For example I quite enjoyed the faster paced combat in The Chronicles of Spellborn which required me to aim at and dodge my target and be quite nimble on the keyboard. I tried getting a friend of mine to play it but she found it too difficult to play as she was used to the standard hotbar controls of more mainstream MMO's where the computer does most of the work for you. She made a choice. She decided to not play the game and instead play something else. She has stayed away from Fallen Earth for the same reason......which is perfectly fine.

Variety is the spice of life.......which is why its a good thing that different types of MMO's are now being made that cater to different play styles. Maybe a crafting system that requires personal player skill wouldnt appeal to everyone.......but then neither does the current "click & wait" system. Nothing will ever appeal to everyone, but it will always appeal to some.

One word.. Vanguard..

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

Instead of beleving the doom and gloom try it out yourself,it cost nothing to install or uninstall..

vanguard.station.sony.com/isleofdawn/

Originally posted by rothbard

There is a difference between issuing a "command" to your character to throw an axe and decapitate a goblin, versus manually aiming a crosshair and clicking a button to do it.  If the player has horrendous aim/dexterity/arthritis/etc it should have no effect whatsoever if he is supposedly playing the part of a master axe thrower.   Whether or not people like to play oblivion is not the point.   Twitch is out of place in an actual RPG. 

P.S. As for Oblivion, this article www.somethingawful.com/d/news/asshole-physics-meet.php pretty much sums up all there is to say about it.

Like I said in the above post it depends on the game. I'm quite happy playing rpgs which do all the work for me. I'm also happy playing games where I have to do it too. As long as its fun and the game is well done then it gets a thumbs up from me.

As for playing a character that is a master with a particular weapon......well.....the aiming system worked fine in TCoS and it isnt too bad in Fallen Earth as well (although it could do with a lot of work). I can have loads of points invested in the use of my pistol but I'm never gonna hit that mad raving mutant if I point my gun up in the air and shoot at a cloud instead. Odd that. It does mean though that if I do aim and shoot properly then I might score a particularly good hit because of my characters skill. Player skill + character skill. Seems to work pretty well in my opinion. I'm looking forward to seeing this approach getting used in more rpgs actually.

I cant quite remember how the axe throwing incident happened in Severance as it was so many years ago. I seem to remember the game having a rough degree of auto-targetting although you still had to manually set off and time your attacks to get past your opponents defences while trying to avoid their attacks at the same time and you could still swing and miss your enemy. In fact they would often jump back or to the side to avoid you and then try and come at you from the side or rear. I remember it all being quite hectic and involving. In fact the axe wasnt meant for throwing. It was my hand weapon at the time. I just decided to lob it when I saw the gobbo scamper into the room. The weapon could easily have missed due to bad timing on my part or perhaps been deflected by the gobbo. Instead though I got the pleasure of seeing it connect with the creatures head and cut right through it.......squelchy blood and gore flying everywhere too. The weapon carried on and clattered against the far wall. I was then able to pick it up and carry on my way. I could even chop my enemies corpses up into smaller pieces in that game if the fancy took me. I dont see many games that offer that level of player involvement.

That Oblivion article was hilarious! Thanks for the read. It made me chuckle as there is a lot of truth to it. My point however wasnt that Oblivion is better than rpgs that dont have that kind of player interaction. It was simply that an rpg can have it and still be an rpg. Player skill and character skill can (and does) work well together.

Originally posted by billynomates

One word.. Vanguard..

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

 

Instead of beleving the doom and gloom try it out yourself,it cost nothing to install or uninstall..

vanguard.station.sony.com/isleofdawn/

Oh jeez cant we leave out the Vanguard adverts. Been there done that 3 times already. After trying it roughly over half a year ago I finally decided that it would be my final visit to the game. There is a reason why the game is surrounded by doom and gloom and its not all because of its bad launch. Its simply not that much fun to play.......although each to their own of course. The crafting in that game really isnt that special. Once you've played the crafting mini-game a few times it simply becomes another monotonous and predictable routine that requires very little thought.......rather like the diplomacy mini-game.

I caught glimpses of the 'twitch' arguement as well as the actual dexterity of the player to make the moves compared to a stock standard role playing game of issued commands.

One thing to remeber is that the stock standard RPG was most commonly known as a roll playing game by those who didn't play with us geeks in the library at lunch time.  This misconception was understandable as everything was done with dice rolls and quick calcs to work out success/failure.

To say that if a game has an element of twitch or real life dexterity can't be considered and RPG, then i would put it to you that every game you think is an RPG doesn't qualify.

Why - because they have real time combat, the old shool RPG element is turn based and is nothing more than commands and dice rolls, but that is not what make it an RPG after all it is ROLE playing not roll playing.

Technically almost all video games are RPG's even the sports games - cause you as a real person are playing the role of someone/thing else, but we look at the RPG genre as compared to the non video version which is druids and trolls, fantasy or futuristic.

I think that elements of twitch can be involved in RPG's, any game with a realtime combat and world PvP straight away has 2 combined, then you include guilds with vent and leaders wanting you to perform actions at their command it gets more twitchy the further you go.

Games/Genres evolve somethings stick/some don't - crafting originally wasn't a part of many games, but it got put in ( for whatever reason ) one way back when and now has become almost a standard - I think for this reason that is subpar in most as devs believe they have to have it or there game won't be complete so they put together any old crap/rehash of other crap instead of giving it some proper attention.