I guess I am either not explaining myself well enough to the WoW masses, or it is simply a lost cause because they just don't WANT to listen to anything anyone else has to say. Or simply want to flame anything that has an ounce of negativity about WoW.

THIS IS ALL MY THOUGHTS & OPINIONS, NOT FACTS BY ANY MEANS.

Not that that is out of the way.

Look, I am not blaming  Blizzard for everything. I AM however blaming them for TWO things that bug me greatly. HOWEVER...I am only blaming them to a small degree.

1) The severe shift to MMO's being SO easy now, they get old fast.

2) Due to #1, I feel it brought a massive shift in the quantities of douchebaggery in MMO's and on the forums.

*Let's see how many stop there to quote and flame before reading the rest, if at all*

If anyone should take a brunt of the blame, it's every other MMO company out there trying to clone WoW mechanics, etc into their own games instead of going their own direction and making something somewhat unique to their respective companies that will keep players interested for longer than a month or two.

And yes, I have been playing since EQ in 99', I am fully aware that douchebags have existed since then. Even in UO...but that is expected since it was a PvP game. But you can't tell me that there hasn't been a massive influx of them since WoW brought in console players, ect to the genre that never knew of MMO's until it existed. And it isn't just kids, tweens, teens, and college age players (although I am GUESSING the majority of WoW players are in one of these groups)....their ARE adults that are just as bad...as sad as that is.

I'm not advocating a complete copy of old style EQ or UO, etc. I'm simply wondering/hoping/almost begging for some company to grow a pair, take a chance, and simply add some of the challenge/difficulty that was present in those games BACK into some of these newer MMO's releasing.

Make quests that challenge the player. Not just all "Kill/Collect X amount of X" quests riddled through every level to take up space. Unimaginative and uninspiring garbage.  I mean, some are ok to take up left over gaps, but damn, the amount of them in MMO's now is glaringly obvious laziness.

Again, not that EQ etc from the first MMO's didn't have those types of quests either, but they DID have quests that made you adventure further than 10 feet to find what you needed for quests....which sometimes involved a perilous journey across dangerous areas to reach your destination. That is what I call a quest personally. Going from one dot to the next , for me, is just boring.

I could go on, but I'm not making this into a novel. 

So...I'm not saying new MMO's shouldn't exist...some brought some very good ideas with them. I'm simply saying that it would be nice to have some challenge back, some imagination and some of the passion brought back into MMO's

Now that I think of it...you know what is really to blame for the way they have gone? Greed.

Originally posted by Astralglide

Originally posted by FreddyDingo

Originally posted by Astralglide

So, what games (that were fun to play)  had different formula's? There are only so many types of fun things to do that van be created in a video game.  Everybody speaks of the age before WoW as some golden age of peace and presperity for MMO's before the dark-lord Blizzard covered the lands with the never-ending night that is "World of Warcraft". I have played several MMO's - Hell, you could even say I played one of the true originals with "Legend of the Red Dragon" and "Exitilus". Was Ultima Online without a grind? Did it have amazing new quests that were somehow lost in time? Has the Dark-Lord Blizzard stolen away the secrets that made DAOC and Everquest NOT a grind? Because I've played those games. DAOC made me want to kill myself, Ultima Online was populated by douche-bag player killers, and Everquest was fun, but it WAS A GRIND! There are other options, like Ryzom which has fresh innovative quests that require you to kill mobs and gather materials... oh wait. Global Mu was just like Diablo (that's different how?). All I'm trying to say is that WoW is not the big, bad wolf. If you have new ideas for content, then get them out there- these companies all want to make money and, as and industry, the MMO market really is the most responsive to its customers. They give us what we want, because as customers, we are probably the hardest to please. But seriously, stop with the boogey-man victim nonsense (not you, specifically, all of us). If we want something different, we need to ask for what we want instead of complaining about what we have.

 

I do believe you just created a new MMO with that sentence.

It should at least be a boss on Dungeon Runners

I'm surprised some new mmorpg hasn't made reference to WoW like that before in some way.
 

Wait wait wait, people here call WoW, a EQ clone. So wasnt it EQ that started the trend? WoW developers were hardcore EQ fanboys right (the Whole Paladin Consp??)

So why did Hardcore players play WoW if its not what they wanted? Thats like a PvEer complaining about joing Warhammer and Darkfall's PvP servers.

Still nobody answered my question.

Why didnt these WoW haters, not go populate New MMORPG concepts, that were in Guild Wars, Age of Conan, Darkfall?

These games are very different from WoW. Why havnt you playing them and stay to populate them?

I mean,,,,Come ON,,,,, Guild Wars is Free-To-Play for cryiing out loud. Why not popuate it?

Something has to be wrong if the Hard Core, wont populate them as well

I took a break from WoW, about 40 days now.

After the new cross-server LFG ques come out, I'm heading back.  I'll keep playing CO on the side but so far, nothing beats WoW.  See you on Auchindoun.

Originally posted by tro44_1

Wait wait wait, people here call WoW, a EQ clone. So wasnt it EQ that started the trend? WoW developers were hardcore EQ fanboys right (the Whole Paladin Consp??)

So why did Hardcore players play WoW if its not what they wanted? Thats like a PvEer complaining about joing Warhammer and Darkfall's PvP servers.

 

Still nobody answered my question.

Why didnt these WoW haters, not go populate New MMORPG concepts, that were in Guild Wars, Age of Conan, Darkfall?

These games are very different from WoW. Why havnt you playing them and stay to populate them?

I mean,,,,Come ON,,,,, Guild Wars is Free-To-Play for cryiing out loud. Why not popuate it?

Something has to be wrong if the Hard Core, wont populate them as well

Because different, doesnt mean good/better. They can add as many new things as they want, but if its done horribly and the game is just crap overall (ie Darkfall), people arent going to play it just because its different. Also, WoW wasnt an EQ clone, but it did take nearly every mechanic and concept it has from EQ and other MMOs that existed at the time and put them all into one package.

But youre right, something is wrong. The few companies that do try to move away from being a WoW clone, i gues try a bit too hard and focus too much on the things that seperate them, and therefore leave other aspects of the game severely lacking and cause it to just be bad overall. Look at WAR. They tried too much to focus on teh RvR aspect of the game (and even pulled a lot of that off poorly) and WAR quickly became known for having horribly bad PVE amongst other things. Now if they had done the PVE as well as other games + done the RVR part slightly better, we would have had a killer game on our hands. But instead they choose to keep making classes/realsm more and mor eimbalanced in pvp, and rathe rthan fixing the glaring issues with PVE, they simply unleash new PVE content (like Land of the dead) which nobody even wants to do because of the pre-existing flaws that are still there.

Hopefully someday soon a dev will get around that and be able to polish up their entire game and provide a great experience in every aspect... customization, pve content, pvp mechanics,  crafting systems, and more. WoW has come the closest to combining all aspects ina  pretty good way, though personally i find both the PVP and the crafting severely lacking, but once someone is able to do it even better, a few years will go by and WoW will become known as the "old" game that people grew out of (kind of like EQ is to WoW now).

Blizz has done what needs to be done for its games.  Make it good.  Blizz is good for making games polished and technically bug free.  That is the minimal standard for software implementation, that the software does work.  Not even Microsoft achieve that all the times.

Blizz has also set a good standard for talking to its clients.  They are always upfront telling us what they have in mind.

Blizz has maintained good test servers, so everyone who cares to know what Blizz is trying out can have a go at it.

Blizz has been able to maintain very fast respond time to complaints and appeals.

Blizz has been watchful for good ideas from the competition.  They adopt them fast, they copy and improved upon a lot of them.

For the price of one game, they provided a lot of gameplay, style and options.  They compromised, as a result of variety.

They offer free trials, so everyone can try before buying.

BUT ... they do not work on all these for the world of MMOs.  They did do their own job well.  For themselves.  They are only responsible for themselves. not the "world of MMOs".

Blizz is in no way responsible for anything outside their company.  PERIOD.

Wow didn't do anything. The playerbase did.

 What your all missing is the difference between games then.. and games now..

MMO's now are just "games". No different than super mario, Halo, Grand Theft Auto.. etc. They are treated as such. Your not adventuring.. your grinding/leveling. Your not exploring, your grinding leveling, your not adventuring with another band of adventurers, your pugging an instance. Your not searching for an ancient piece of armor.. your farming purples. See where I am going with this?

MMO's then, had little to do with the content. It was about the "experience" the feeling of being immersed into a world that wasn't our own. The ability to travel, and explore unseen lands with complete strangers. To basically live in a living breathing fantasy world for a few hours each night.

In Come Blizzard, and all that ended. The comradery and community of those MMO's were nowhere to be found in WoW. Prepubescent teens spouting obscenities, and chuck norris jokes. Constant harassing. Number crunching, and "cheating" (yes, using questhelper is cheating folks.. I don't care how you spin it.) It became so "easy" to do anything. All the tense and exciting moments in games of old.. became non existent. I mean... for example..

Try running from say.. Darnassus to Stormwind at level 1-5... pretty easy right. You may die, but since there's no penalty.. who cares right? Run from Freeport to Kelethin in EQ... the task is much more challenging. Today, MMO's are just "games", back then they were an experience. The last time I logged into WoW, I stopped and asked myself.. Why am I even playing this? There's no community, no exploration, no difficulty, just endless raiding and daily questing. 

I loved Vanguard, but its not our fault that the developers trashed it. Sure, it wouldn't have overtaken WoW.. because nothing will. I don' t want all the retards in the game I am playing anyway. I have to deal with those type of people all day long.. the last thing I want to do is log into the "world" to see someone spouting racial obscenities.. or any of the other ridiculously stupid things people say in WoW chat. 

For the time I did play VG.. it had one of the best communities, and for a bit.. I did get that feeling back. Its not the content that we are looking for.

Originally posted by kaiser3282

Originally posted by tro44_1

Wait wait wait, people here call WoW, a EQ clone. So wasnt it EQ that started the trend? WoW developers were hardcore EQ fanboys right (the Whole Paladin Consp??)

So why did Hardcore players play WoW if its not what they wanted? Thats like a PvEer complaining about joing Warhammer and Darkfall's PvP servers.

 

Still nobody answered my question.

Why didnt these WoW haters, not go populate New MMORPG concepts, that were in Guild Wars, Age of Conan, Darkfall?

These games are very different from WoW. Why havnt you playing them and stay to populate them?

I mean,,,,Come ON,,,,, Guild Wars is Free-To-Play for cryiing out loud. Why not popuate it?

Something has to be wrong if the Hard Core, wont populate them as well

 

Because different, doesnt mean good/better. They can add as many new things as they want, but if its done horribly and the game is just crap overall (ie Darkfall), people arent going to play it just because its different. Also, WoW wasnt an EQ clone, but it did take nearly every mechanic and concept it has from EQ and other MMOs that existed at the time and put them all into one package.

But youre right, something is wrong. The few companies that do try to move away from being a WoW clone, i gues try a bit too hard and focus too much on the things that seperate them, and therefore leave other aspects of the game severely lacking and cause it to just be bad overall. Look at WAR. They tried too much to focus on teh RvR aspect of the game (and even pulled a lot of that off poorly) and WAR quickly became known for having horribly bad PVE amongst other things. Now if they had done the PVE as well as other games + done the RVR part slightly better, we would have had a killer game on our hands. But instead they choose to keep making classes/realsm more and mor eimbalanced in pvp, and rathe rthan fixing the glaring issues with PVE, they simply unleash new PVE content (like Land of the dead) which nobody even wants to do because of the pre-existing flaws that are still there.

Hopefully someday soon a dev will get around that and be able to polish up their entire game and provide a great experience in every aspect... customization, pve content, pvp mechanics,  crafting systems, and more. WoW has come the closest to combining all aspects ina  pretty good way, though personally i find both the PVP and the crafting severely lacking, but once someone is able to do it even better, a few years will go by and WoW will become known as the "old" game that people grew out of (kind of like EQ is to WoW now).

I would love the day when WoW is called dumb because we have a lot of other better games to play.  We do not need wise guys telling us WoW is stupid.  We can tell that ourselves when we can land our feet on better games.  We knows what game is bad, and if its bad, it is bad, different from WoW or clone, it is bad.  Darkfall is different from WoW, it is bad.  Tons of WoW clones are similar, they are bad.

There is no lacking fun games since WoW.  Guild Wars was fun at start, so is CoH.  Unfortunately, these games cannot keep up the momentum, they stopped moving forward.  WoW was good at start, but what makes it so impressive, is that they keep moving forward, mistakes asides.  They keep looking out for things they can incorporate, while introducing a lot of fancy ideas themselves.  Warlock summoning stone is a good idea.  Repair bots, mailbots.  Tiny bits here and there, they constantly move ahead.

After 5 years of cumulative tireless progress, they are already leaps ahead of competitors.  That is why they have the business.  That is why they can keep moving, because they have the money to try it out.

Having only WoW on top is bad news for us in a way, as monopoly usually is seen as a sign of stagnation.  Unfortunately we have no other developer able and willing to keep their product progressing, and selling at the same time.

Lets hope Bioware can make it work.  Aion and Champions Online does not seem to work it out yet.  They need time.  WoW is working on a new MMO.  This might also be a sign of hope.

Originally posted by raystantz

 What your all missing is the difference between games then.. and games now..

MMO's now are just "games". No different than super mario, Halo, Grand Theft Auto.. etc. They are treated as such. Your not adventuring.. your grinding/leveling. Your not exploring, your grinding leveling, your not adventuring with another band of adventurers, your pugging an instance. Your not searching for an ancient piece of armor.. your farming purples. See where I am going with this?

MMO's then, had little to do with the content. It was about the "experience" the feeling of being immersed into a world that wasn't our own. The ability to travel, and explore unseen lands with complete strangers. To basically live in a living breathing fantasy world for a few hours each night.

In Come Blizzard, and all that ended. The comradery and community of those MMO's were nowhere to be found in WoW. Prepubescent teens spouting obscenities, and chuck norris jokes. Constant harassing. Number crunching, and "cheating" (yes, using questhelper is cheating folks.. I don't care how you spin it.) It became so "easy" to do anything. All the tense and exciting moments in games of old.. became non existent. I mean... for example..

Try running from say.. Darnassus to Stormwind at level 1-5... pretty easy right. You may die, but since there's no penalty.. who cares right? Run from Freeport to Kelethin in EQ... the task is much more challenging. Today, MMO's are just "games", back then they were an experience. The last time I logged into WoW, I stopped and asked myself.. Why am I even playing this? There's no community, no exploration, no difficulty, just endless raiding and daily questing. 

I loved Vanguard, but its not our fault that the developers trashed it. Sure, it wouldn't have overtaken WoW.. because nothing will. I don' t want all the retards in the game I am playing anyway. I have to deal with those type of people all day long.. the last thing I want to do is log into the "world" to see someone spouting racial obscenities.. or any of the other ridiculously stupid things people say in WoW chat. 

For the time I did play VG.. it had one of the best communities, and for a bit.. I did get that feeling back. Its not the content that we are looking for.

Well there are good and bad people in each game community.  EQ has its share of scumbags, in same proportion.

The real difference is, WoW gives options and tools for us all to get together.  The world chat channels, the notorious /2 trade channels.  None of these exist in EQ.  The east common tunnels is all we have, and well, if you run into that channel years back, you hear as much whining and nonsense as you see now in dalaran, or barrens before TBC.

Once you zone into ulduar, or ToC/ToGC, you leave them all behind.  Once you flew out to do your dailies, and turn off /1 channel, you gets back your own world.

If you are talking about exploration, LOTRo during launch (or open beta) is really far far better than Everquest.  With the less painful death penalty, we dare explore in LOTRo.  Death penalties like corpse running is exactly what stops exploration.  During EQ days we all move to the raid spot as fast as possible, following only known and tried tracks.  No one wants to explore a zone once the safe trail is mapped out.  No one want to die exploring.

As for community, it is what you make of it.  I have very good friends in every game, that is cos I weed out the rest.  All I need is a few 10s of friends to team up with.  The rest of the community are largely hit and goodbye people.  People to trade with, to craft for.  Good people from pugs are added to friendlist, others are just ignored, naturally.

A good thing about WoW is the huge community.  With thousands online all the times, we can try to fill our 5s or 10s or 25s with people we know and love to team with.  During EQ days, it is always hard to find a spot at the popular camp spots, and sometimes I have to sit in zone safe spot waiting for my turn to rotate in, with no control on who I am teaming with.  I just join whichever camp has opening for me.

You look back at EQ with nostalgia, you forgot all the horrors of that game, the total lacking in tools in that game.  You forgot the long hours or running to the raid spot, the long waiting hours of corpse recovery, the painful "train!!!!" incidences.  The agony of disconnetion in an instance and not knowing whether to log back on hours later, know you will be alone facing a bad ass boss.  The pathetic lacking in /LFG tools.  The painful hours to get into a raid camp spot.  The long long long grinding hours at a camp hoping for a drop.  Come on, who explores in EQ?  Everyone works out the safe paths from spot to spot, working out the camping spots, agree on the split of mobs between each camp, then everybody sits down camping the bosses, or waiting at zone in.  That is EQ.  Where is the wonderful romance story you talk about in EQ?

 ITT: WoW is synonymous with butthurt

Solution:

Originally posted by Josher

 I'm sure there is a small group out there that also thinks the internet should've stayed confusing and unintutive, a place only nerds and geeks can access.   Its the same people who want MMOs to go back in time to the 90s when most people hated them.   WOW brought in the masses.  The internet brought in the masses.  Sounds familiar right? 

^^^^^^^ THIS.

And...WoW did nothing wrong. Blizzard made money....fooking sue them. Good grief. What is "killing" the genre is all of the other GREEDY (god forbid) developers that are now putting their HOPES of making that kind of MONEY ahead of creative integrity.

You cannot blame Blizzard for what OTHER developers are choosing to do. That's just ridiculous and illogical.

Businesses, generally, try to produce what people will BUY. Fancy that.... /facepalm. If you want other kinds of games to be made, then you'll have to convince 11 million people to stop playing WoW.  Good luck with that. OR....you can hope for some other rich developers to come along with a creative vision that they value MORE THAN they are worried with the financial risk.

Originally posted by Lansid

 ITT: WoW is synonymous with butthurt

Solution:

Does this work, you know, Between the legs? Dam I need some

Edit: Crap Did I just post this. I ment it to be a private message 

:^)
 

Originally posted by RealmLords

The last time I said something about WoW, it was on the WoW forum and I was defending it from another one of those silly posts about how WoW is going to collapse.  For that, I had my post removed and was sent a warning for TROLLING.

So, to keep MMORPG.com happy, here's my take on the situation...

 

WoW is good.

 

You believe me don't you?

 

Ken

 

Harr, harr... Heya Ken! Its me Mord! :D So... go with the flow eh? :) Yea... I guess wow was good, i played it for good 2 years.. But after i saw which it has become and what it did to the players on it.. I just left.

PreparationH .. aah thats funny, Austin Powers ftw!

Wow didn't do anything to the market except introduce warcraft fans to mmorpgs.  Of which there were millions.  Greedy venture capitalist scum is ruining the genre.  If you've never heard of a MUD,  you have no business being in the mmo industry PERIOD. 

Blizzard haven't done anything just another jump in world of mmorpgs and one more thing, they washed your brains! Beside the story-line i can't find anything attractive.More interestig is tha wow players are blind , nothing but wow.

 Your still not getting it.

EQ was an MMORPG...

UO was an MMORPG....

WoW is an MMO.

See the difference? You played a role in those other games. You were someone else. You weren't "OMGLOLDK" in the guild "At least we took stables".

The people who play WoW turned MMORPG's into a joke.

Khm ... I do not understand logic ... the best surgeon ruined all other surgeons? The best pilot being the best ruined all other pilots? Company making best computers responsible for trash or lazy companies to fail? Who is here to blame?

Originally posted by Sauronas

Wow didn't do anything to the market except introduce warcraft fans to mmorpgs.  Of which there were millions.  Greedy venture capitalist scum is ruining the genre.  If you've never heard of a MUD,  you have no business being in the mmo industry PERIOD. 

Hell, I still play MUDs!

1. Lets suppose wow didnt come up ,and at some point another mmorpg came out similar or diferent in theme and style and was so good that would monopolise the market. Sooner or later one very well designed mmo comes and dominates the things.In this occasion its wow allright.

2.As said in 1. its obvious that its not wow'fault that rest dev companies are trying to copy-paste its succesfull formula.The sad thing is that they dont add to it some new ideas to further expand it and present some new mmo that its solid well designed strong and addictive.WOW itself borrowed/copied other mmo's ideas anwy THE POINT IS that it also expanded the elements it borrowed .So it seems its a fault of the rest developers .

3.In order to kill wow a developer has 2 options.

a)Either present a wow version as it should have been by now after 5 years almost from its release with great new ideas ,and focus on gameplay ,addiction and immersion,advenuring,exploration etc

or b) Present a version of the most playble mmo ever (Ultima online)with good or decent graficks which i dont understand why this havent happened till now OR at last  Bethesda desides to join the mmo market by throwing into ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE WORLD.

4. For the present situation i said in the past that a huge responsibility has the players community base which seems NOT to demanding enough things from developers and go spend their money on thir half finished products. Wow players base also has a share of responsibility  for wow'w present state .If they are demandeding in wow forums a lot more things than nerf this class,or boost the other class,WOW now would have evolved a lot more SINCE blizzard IS listening to their customers usually. In 5 years of progress only thing that changed in wow is: Implement of glyphs in characters development,added Arenas to pvp,couple of battlegrounds added,added 2 races,and 1 new class only!!!Quite ridiculus after 5 years almost,and 2 expansions ,and hundrends of patches minor and major.

Originally posted by Archid

Originally posted by RealmLords

The last time I said something about WoW, it was on the WoW forum and I was defending it from another one of those silly posts about how WoW is going to collapse.  For that, I had my post removed and was sent a warning for TROLLING.

So, to keep MMORPG.com happy, here's my take on the situation...

 

WoW is good.

 

You believe me don't you?

 

Ken

 

Harr, harr... Heya Ken! Its me Mord! :D So... go with the flow eh? :) Yea... I guess wow was good, i played it for good 2 years.. But after i saw which it has become and what it did to the players on it.. I just left.

I've been gone for a while now too.

I think many game companies don't give a hoot about how any of us feel on the subject of how Blizzard and WoW have changed the MMO genre.  Games have become big corporate business.  Blizzard figured out how to push the MMORPG genre from a multi-million dollar industry to a multi-billion dollar industry.

Good for the genre, bad for the genre?  They (corporate game giants) could care less.  It's all about MONEY.

I also support the players who are trying to make a difference.  People who talk crap about Blizzard but who stay subscribed are traitors to the cause of the MMORPG genre.  There's a bunch of Indie MMORPGs out there.  People who support games like Fallen Earth vote with their dollars.  That's the only way to REALLY be heard.

Oh well, back to work for me.  Some guy sent me video of my game goofing up and I have to try and fix it. 

Ken

Originally posted by raystantz

 Your still not getting it.

 

EQ was an MMORPG...

UO was an MMORPG....

WoW is an MMO.

 

See the difference? You played a role in those other games. You were someone else. You weren't "OMGLOLDK" in the guild "At least we took stables".

The people who play WoW turned MMORPG's into a joke.

Please explain and show me the tools EQ had that allowed you to play a deeper ROLE in the game compared to WOW?  There is no difference.  WOW actually provided better tools than EQ ever had.  You're confusing the PEOPLE with the GAME.  That's the difference.   Because people chose to play Mad Wizard Geek and stay in character doesn't mean EQ allowed you to play a role better than any other game of that type.   

Originally posted by Goatgod76

I guess I am either not explaining myself well enough to the WoW masses, or it is simply a lost cause because they just don't WANT to listen to anything anyone else has to say. Or simply want to flame anything that has an ounce of negativity about WoW.

THIS IS ALL MY THOUGHTS & OPINIONS, NOT FACTS BY ANY MEANS.

Not that that is out of the way.

Look, I am not blaming  Blizzard for everything. I AM however blaming them for TWO things that bug me greatly. HOWEVER...I am only blaming them to a small degree.

1) The severe shift to MMO's being SO easy now, they get old fast.

2) Due to #1, I feel it brought a massive shift in the quantities of douchebaggery in MMO's and on the forums.

 

*Let's see how many stop there to quote and flame before reading the rest, if at all*

If anyone should take a brunt of the blame, it's every other MMO company out there trying to clone WoW mechanics, etc into their own games instead of going their own direction and making something somewhat unique to their respective companies that will keep players interested for longer than a month or two.

And yes, I have been playing since EQ in 99', I am fully aware that douchebags have existed since then. Even in UO...but that is expected since it was a PvP game. But you can't tell me that there hasn't been a massive influx of them since WoW brought in console players, ect to the genre that never knew of MMO's until it existed. And it isn't just kids, tweens, teens, and college age players (although I am GUESSING the majority of WoW players are in one of these groups)....their ARE adults that are just as bad...as sad as that is.

I'm not advocating a complete copy of old style EQ or UO, etc. I'm simply wondering/hoping/almost begging for some company to grow a pair, take a chance, and simply add some of the challenge/difficulty that was present in those games BACK into some of these newer MMO's releasing.

Make quests that challenge the player. Not just all "Kill/Collect X amount of X" quests riddled through every level to take up space. Unimaginative and uninspiring garbage.  I mean, some are ok to take up left over gaps, but damn, the amount of them in MMO's now is glaringly obvious laziness.

Again, not that EQ etc from the first MMO's didn't have those types of quests either, but they DID have quests that made you adventure further than 10 feet to find what you needed for quests....which sometimes involved a perilous journey across dangerous areas to reach your destination. That is what I call a quest personally. Going from one dot to the next , for me, is just boring.

I could go on, but I'm not making this into a novel. 

So...I'm not saying new MMO's shouldn't exist...some brought some very good ideas with them. I'm simply saying that it would be nice to have some challenge back, some imagination and some of the passion brought back into MMO's

Now that I think of it...you know what is really to blame for the way they have gone? Greed.

 

I want to make something really clear to you, so please take one second and read this before you formulate your next excuse.

Just because people are not agreeing with you, doesn't mean they cannot understand what you say or are incapable of listening to a differening view point.  It is entirely possible that your viewpoints are just not compelling and people just do not agree with them.  You work so hard to find someone else to blame for your points not being cheered, just like you tried blaming the industry flaws on blizzard.

Some things you have wrong and that I disagree with.  Wow is not a game made up of children.  Nielsen polling did some research into games and their conclusion was the majority of wow players are adults over the age of 25 See here

Not only that, but just look at their marketing.  Mr T, William Shatner, Jean Claude VanDamme, ozzy ozbourne and the rest of their endorsed commercial actors pander to adults.  Those are not actors teenagers and children or today would care about.  Children don't buy chevy trucks which is why chevy made a wow commercial See Here

That is why it is so hard to agree with things you say.  You blend your opinion as if it is fact and twist in a healthy does of misinformation or blind speculation in an attempt to make your views look strong.

In regards to your points

1) I don't think wow is any easier than old mmos.  I will agree that soloing is easy, but no easier than it was for the classes that could solo in old games.  MMOs have swung away from grouping towards soloing, but the grouping is still difficult as it ever was.  I find GROUP encounters to be much more complex than they ever were in old games.  They mechanics and class dynamics are far superior in number and technical aspects than we ever had in the tank and spank days of EQ.  There is so much more to pay attention to, abilities to use, synergies, etc. 

2) Perhaps you need to define what you call douchebags of the current mmo generation, because honestly current mmos are a walk in the park compared to the assholes that actively hampered old mmos from growing. 

Seriously in the old mmos it was common place for people to ninja loot, train mobs onto your location to force you to leave an area, guilds to have full on hate wars while cometiting over content and so on.  Zones would erupt in flame wars when certain people would simply zone in or walk past each other.  Guilds would intentionally lock down encounters to halt the progress of the rest of the server.  I could go on and on about the aweful actions of players on PVE servers all day long.  Yes what I am talking about is experiences from PVE servers.   You need to stop dismissing the past as if it is something to be ignored due to uo having pvp or eq having 2 pvp servers.  People in UO didn't need pvp to hide behind, they were assholes, because they could.  Here is an example for you:  Many PvE servers woke the sleeper to cock block progression of guilds (primal was nearly a must back in those days).  The PvP server on the other hand is the only servers community to work together to actually KILL the sleeper which was designed to be unkillable.

Furthermore, every negative term used in mmos today was born from player actions in old mmos.  There were already industry standard terms that everyone playing mmos understood without explaination long before wow was ever released.  Just think about that for a second.

Compare that to todays "douchebags" and all I ever hear is complaints about chuck norris jokes or some other smack talk in a chat channel.  I really have to scratch my head and ask how fucking thin skinned all these supposed old school hardcore players have gotten that some chuck norris jokes get under their skin to the point they must cry about it. 

Seriously have people lost that much perspective that they think players clogging a chat channel with inane chat are worse than people who pick your corpse clean of items, train your group to death and invoke the play-nice-policy to have your guild removed from the zone so they can get a boss encounter your guild already cleared to. 

I do a giant /facepalm everytime an old school player cries about todays communities in comparison to the old days.

Originally posted by Daffid011
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Seriously have people lost that much perspective that they think players clogging a chat channel with inane chat are worse than people who pick your corpse clean of items, train your group to death and invoke the play-nice-policy to have your guild removed from the zone so they can get a boss encounter your guild already cleared to. 

I do a giant /facepalm everytime an old school player cries about todays communities in comparison to the old days.

Well said. I completely agree with everything you wrote...

It is clear to me that some of the old school MMOers have lost touch with the reality of the way things really were back in the 'good old days'.