Originally posted by cmar001

Originally posted by Grayseven

Why is it that, whenever someone gets PO'd at THEIR game, people have to blame their games problems on WoW?

Everyone always tries to knock number 1 off its pedestal no matter what they are number 1 in and WoW is no different.

Why does the OP hate WoW? Because whatever game the OP plays probably launches bug-filled patches that take days or even weeks to clean up. WoW can fix a problem in a few hours. WoW has a huge population meaning their is always someone else to interact or play with, while the OP might be playing a game that has a couple of hundred thousand people spread all over the place at many varied times of the day.

In short, people hate WoW because its everything THEIR game is not. Large, well polished, mostly bug free, constantly being tweaked for balance, on a regular schedule of content additions, varied beyond belief.

SWG came out a short while before WoW and, after WoWs success SOE changed their game to mimic WoW. This wasn't WoWs fault, this was SOEs fault. The game AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY INTENDED would have blown WoW clear out of the water. There is no other single franchise more geek friendly than Star Wars AND SOE SCREWED IT UP!

Everyone knows the myriad of ways SOE pumped the pooch, and since listing them all would take a short novella I'll get to the point. Games don't suck because of WoW, games suck because too many people in the industry listen to the vocal minority like the OP and don't follow WoWs path to success. Its not about being a WoW clone, just follow their business practices of putting out a polished, complete and as bug free as possible game.

If you have to hate on someone, hate on the publishers of the game YOU play, after all its their lack of foresight that has screwed up your playing experience.

<Mod Edit>

First of all, if you want people to take you seriously, it usually is not a good idea to start out by referring to them as fan-bois or douches simply because they have a view contrary to yours. The person you are replying to raised some good arguments and you responded by calling him names. Perhaps if your arguments had more basis in reality you would not need to resort to such methods?

Secondly, the fact that you have played every MMO out there does not make you an expert on anything. We do not know how long you have played any of these titles, nor how far you got in any of them. I too have played pretty much every MMO since Ultima Online, but that does not make my opinion any more valid than anyone else's here.

It is entirely your prerogative to hate WoW if you so choose, but don't act as though your opinion is fact. If you really want to get factual, we could yet again quote the subscription numbers to prove that the vast majority of players in the MMO genre disagree with you. Or perhaps the reviews from pretty much every major gaming site (other than MMORPG.com). The FACT is that most people consider WoW to be a very good game for a very wide assortment of reasons that have already been mentioned on this thread.

Your argument that WoW has somehow caused other developers to 'forget' how to make good games is utter nonsense. The ONLY people at fault for the failure of other games are the companies who made them. They are the ones that attempt (and fail) to copy other successful games and rush titles out long before they are ready. They are the ones who set expectations unrealistically high and then fail to meet them. They are the ones who consistently choose to adopt tried and true design concepts rather than attempt to innovate. Its not like this is something new or somehow the result of WoW's success. Companies were rushing out incomplete garbage MMOs long before WoW ever hit the scene.

Blizzard did nothing but avoid the mistakes of other companies and released a product that was massively superior to the competition in terms of content and quality. They are not to blame for anything other than delivering the ONLY product on the market that meets (or exceeds) most of our expectations of quality. You should be thanking them for finally setting the bar of quality to a point where the genre actually has mainstream attention.

And before you call me a 'fan-boi' and summarily dismiss my arguments, I would like to say that I do not even play WoW. I played it for about 4 years until I got incredibly tired of it. Even though I could not personally stand playing WoW another minute, I can and do appreciate it for what it is...

It is entirely your prerogative to hate WoW if you so choose, but don't act as though your opinion is fact. If you really want to get factual, we could yet again quote the subscription numbers to prove that the vast majority of players in the MMO genre disagree with you. Or perhaps the reviews from pretty much every major gaming site (other than MMORPG.com). The FACT is that most people consider WoW to be a very good game for a very wide assortment of reasons that have already been mentioned on this thread.

Your argument that WoW has somehow caused other developers to 'forget' how to make good games is utter nonsense. The ONLY people at fault for the failure of other games are the companies who made them. They are the ones that attempt (and fail) to copy other successful games and rush titles out long before they are ready. They are the ones who set expectations unrealistically high and then fail to meet them. They are the ones who consistently choose to adopt tried and true design concepts rather than attempt to innovate. Its not like this is something new or somehow the result of WoW's success. Companies were rushing out incomplete garbage MMOs long before WoW ever hit the scene.

Blizzard did nothing but avoid the mistakes of other companies and released a product that was massively superior to the competition in terms of content and quality. They are not to blame for anything other than delivering the ONLY product on the market that meets (or exceeds) most of our expectations of quality. You should be thanking them for finally setting the bar of quality to a point where the genre actually has mainstream attention.

And before you call me a 'fan-boi' and summarily dismiss my arguments, I would like to say that I do not even play WoW. I played it for about 4 years until I got incredibly tired of it. Even though I could not personally stand playing WoW another minute, I can and do appreciate it for what it is...

1.  So, because McDonalds is the world's most financially successful restaurant, with the most customers, that means most people agree McDonalds has the best food ever? Your logic is falling apart.  Now, let me introduce you to CrazyRacing Kartrider.  It has 15,000,000 subscribers.  http://kart.nexon.com/kart/page/Main.aspx?URL=Home/Index  There goes your popular = good argument.

2.  It is true, that WoW cannot be blamed for other game companies choosing to copy tried and true methods, and churn out derivative garbage to generate mass appeal.  Games were doing this before everybody was trying to copy WoW- case in point, it's exactly what WoW did.

3.  What Blizzard did, is precisely what the most popular company within any market will do- they created a bland, mass-appeal product that has just enough to get people interested, and doesn't threaten, challenge, or do anything wrong enough to drive people away.  McDonald's.  Starbucks.  Wal-Mart.  If you want to insist that all of these companies do what they do by having the best possible product of the highest possible quality, then go right ahead and make a fool of yourself saying so.  Or, accept that mass appeal =/ quality, not in any other industry, and not in MMOs, and think it through again.

Originally posted by Uccisore

1.  So, because McDonalds is the world's most financially successful restaurant, with the most customers, that means most people agree McDonalds has the best food ever? Your logic is falling apart.  Now, let me introduce you to CrazyRacing Kartrider.  It has 15,000,000 subscribers.  http://kart.nexon.com/kart/page/Main.aspx?URL=Home/Index  There goes your popular = good argument.

I never said that the the most subscribers = the best game. The OP talked about how WoW is a bad game on this thread several times as though that were a widely accepted fact. The truth is, that is an opinion... and one that most people don't share. I simply said that most MMO gamers think WoW is a good game and I offered the numbers to prove that. The reasons why people think WoW is such a good game have been repeated in this thread and on these forums many many times, so I won't get into it again.

2.  It is true, that WoW cannot be blamed for other game companies choosing to copy tried and true methods, and churn out derivative garbage to generate mass appeal.  Games were doing this before everybody was trying to copy WoW- case in point, it's exactly what WoW did.

I'm glad you agree.

3.  What Blizzard did, is precisely what the most popular company within any market will do- they created a bland, mass-appeal product that has just enough to get people interested, and doesn't threaten, challenge, or do anything wrong enough to drive people away.  McDonald's.  Starbucks.  Wal-Mart.  If you want to insist that all of these companies do what they do by having the best possible product of the highest possible quality, then go right ahead and make a fool of yourself saying so.  Or, accept that mass appeal =/ quality, not in any other industry, and not in MMOs, and think it through again.

Now here we get back to people using their opinion as fact. You obviously consider WoW to be a bland game with nothing going for it beyond mass-market appeal. Again, this is an opinion that is not shared by the majority of gamers. Many of us tend to think that WoW is, in fact, the best MMO on the market for many reasons.

The examples you gave of McDonalds, Starbucks, and Walmart really do not work in this argument. Those companies are where they are because they offer products at extremely low prices. Everyone knows that you can't get the BEST burger in the world at McDonalds, yet people often buy a Big Mac because its cheap, convenient, and tastes okay.

In the world of MMOs, this is quite different. World of Warcraft is by no means the cheapest game on the market. Nor does it offer less than its competitors. In fact, WoW is a very expensive game to get into because you would have to buy the original game and both expansions to get to level cap. In addition, you would have to pay the $14.99 monthly charge (which is as much or more than the competition). Yet millions of people continue to shell out all that money to play it and more and more join them every day. Why do they do that? Because, again, most people tend to think WoW is a quality game. By your argument, WoW should cost $.99 cents and be available on a value menu...

Would you like fries with that?

Damaged it... There are still people who think its the only one and first.

Originally posted by Uccisore 

1.  So, because McDonalds is the world's most financially successful restaurant, with the most customers, that means most people agree McDonalds has the best food ever? Your logic is falling apart.  Now, let me introduce you to CrazyRacing Kartrider.  It has 15,000,000 subscribers.  http://kart.nexon.com/kart/page/Main.aspx?URL=Home/Index  There goes your popular = good argument.

2.  It is true, that WoW cannot be blamed for other game companies choosing to copy tried and true methods, and churn out derivative garbage to generate mass appeal.  Games were doing this before everybody was trying to copy WoW- case in point, it's exactly what WoW did.

3.  What Blizzard did, is precisely what the most popular company within any market will do- they created a bland, mass-appeal product that has just enough to get people interested, and doesn't threaten, challenge, or do anything wrong enough to drive people away.  McDonald's.  Starbucks.  Wal-Mart.  If you want to insist that all of these companies do what they do by having the best possible product of the highest possible quality, then go right ahead and make a fool of yourself saying so.  Or, accept that mass appeal =/ quality, not in any other industry, and not in MMOs, and think it through again.

McDonalds is the worlds most successful FAST FOOD restaurant.  Why would you compare it to EVERY other type of food.  That would be like comparing wow to chess and saying chess and trying to draw a conclusion from that.  It doesn't make sense to compare dissimilar items unless you are simply trying to draw some negative association to the original subject.  Like associating a video game with the negative stigma of fast food. 

If you think I am wrong, then complete your analogy.  Wow = mcdonalds.  Show me the other mmos that are steak and glass of wine fine dining.  What would you compare other mmos to in that analogy?   

Wow has had wide spread recognition from every corner of the the gaming industry for being a high quality product that continues to deliver consistantly.  It is the game that brought the term polished to the market.  Now if you want to talk about logic falling apart, you are talking about hamburgers while others are talking about examples that directly discuss the subject matter. 

Imagine what would happen if the leader of a country addressed the financial meltdown as terms of a hamburger restaurant.  Now do you see how dumb that looks?

 WoW is not a bad game.. for what it is.

WoW is the "new wave" MMO. Its meant to be targeted to this generation.

It was never meant to be something the old timers would like. It just wasn't designed that way. They wanted to appeal to everyone.. even people who previously wouldn't have given a rats ass about playing an MMO. They'd rather play Halo any day of the week. But, Blizzard took that and ran with it, and polished their game for those people, leaving the people who kept the genre alive out in the cold while they focused on people who up until this point could give a crap about playing an MMO. They want instant fun and gratification and thats what Blizzard gave them.

Those of us who were brought up on UO, and old school EQ had to suffer through the endless amounts of idiots, and young kids who had never played an MMO before. We had to suffer through the easy peasy content that was designed for those same group of folks, and we have to currently suffer through the endless amount of content rehashing that Blizzard does in order to keep those group of folks playing. Its obviously about nothing more than $$$ and there's nothing wrong with that.. but unfortunately, it drove a stake into the heart of the players who made the MMO genre what it is. 

For us, we still have a few games that aren't catering to those people.. but the number is slowly dwindling, and each year more and more companies take the "WoW path" and fail miserably.. WoW already has all those people.. so why not make something for the rest of us?

Originally posted by raystantz

 WoW is not a bad game.. for what it is.

WoW is the "new wave" MMO. Its meant to be targeted to this generation.

It was never meant to be something the old timers would like. It just wasn't designed that way. They wanted to appeal to everyone.. even people who previously wouldn't have given a rats ass about playing an MMO. They'd rather play Halo any day of the week. But, Blizzard took that and ran with it, and polished their game for those people, leaving the people who kept the genre alive out in the cold while they focused on people who up until this point could give a crap about playing an MMO. They want instant fun and gratification and thats what Blizzard gave them.

Those of us who were brought up on UO, and old school EQ had to suffer through the endless amounts of idiots, and young kids who had never played an MMO before. We had to suffer through the easy peasy content that was designed for those same group of folks, and we have to currently suffer through the endless amount of content rehashing that Blizzard does in order to keep those group of folks playing. Its obviously about nothing more than $$$ and there's nothing wrong with that.. but unfortunately, it drove a stake into the heart of the players who made the MMO genre what it is. 

For us, we still have a few games that aren't catering to those people.. but the number is slowly dwindling, and each year more and more companies take the "WoW path" and fail miserably.. WoW already has all those people.. so why not make something for the rest of us?

Amen brother.

But IMO, I think the main thing is that frustrates most old school players is the inability of the new generation to SEE our frustration, and why it's there. If we dare whisper for an MMO, 1 MMO!!!....to return to the genre's roots for our sake...add the challenge back into it, the meaningful questing and deep, rich story arcs, a reason to fear death, etc , we get chastise for it.

Selfish if you ask me. There are TONS of MMO's out there to cater to them, when is it our turn? And they can bring up that "Your the minority, why would they want to make a game for you." I can assure you there are enough players out there that want such a game, and it would be popular. Maybe not near as popular as WoW, but it would pay the bills.

No, but it really didn´t do it any favours. WoW still get new players but it also bleed tons of players wich it barely did the two first years.

Bad thing is that many of these ex-WoW players complains if they come to a new mmorpg that isn´t easy, not understanding that other players want a challenge and want mmorpg with deep in their skill and economy, crafting system.

I hope other companies will understand that copying WoW isn´t the way to make good games. In the history of first person shooters then ID software once upon a time was the king with Quake 2. The other companies asked themselfes "How to compete with that?" One tried to simply flesh out Quake 2 with more mobs and very few innovative stuff, it was called "Daikatana". Valve took the Quake 2 engine  as well and made "Half life", a  game not much in common with Quake 2.

Guess what game did sell most in the end? :P

Quake 2 didn´t kill the genre despite being so popular first person shooter back then, it was overtaken not by an sequel or a copycat, but by a better game. Neither is WoW killing the mmorpg. Sadly we are seeing a bit too many "Daikatanas" in the mmorpg genre though.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by raystantz

 WoW is not a bad game.. for what it is.

WoW is the "new wave" MMO. Its meant to be targeted to this generation.

It was never meant to be something the old timers would like. It just wasn't designed that way. They wanted to appeal to everyone.. even people who previously wouldn't have given a rats ass about playing an MMO. They'd rather play Halo any day of the week. But, Blizzard took that and ran with it, and polished their game for those people, leaving the people who kept the genre alive out in the cold while they focused on people who up until this point could give a crap about playing an MMO. They want instant fun and gratification and thats what Blizzard gave them.

Those of us who were brought up on UO, and old school EQ had to suffer through the endless amounts of idiots, and young kids who had never played an MMO before. We had to suffer through the easy peasy content that was designed for those same group of folks, and we have to currently suffer through the endless amount of content rehashing that Blizzard does in order to keep those group of folks playing. Its obviously about nothing more than $$$ and there's nothing wrong with that.. but unfortunately, it drove a stake into the heart of the players who made the MMO genre what it is. 

For us, we still have a few games that aren't catering to those people.. but the number is slowly dwindling, and each year more and more companies take the "WoW path" and fail miserably.. WoW already has all those people.. so why not make something for the rest of us?

 

Amen brother.

But IMO, I think the main thing is that frustrates most old school players is the inability of the new generation to SEE our frustration, and why it's there. If we dare whisper for an MMO, 1 MMO!!!....to return to the genre's roots for our sake...add the challenge back into it, the meaningful questing and deep, rich story arcs, a reason to fear death, etc , we get chastise for it.

Selfish if you ask me. There are TONS of MMO's out there to cater to them, when is it our turn? And they can bring up that "Your the minority, why would they want to make a game for you." I can assure you there are enough players out there that want such a game, and it would be popular. Maybe not near as popular as WoW, but it would pay the bills.

You had your turn and now its over=)  OR, go play Eve.  All the overly difficult, time consuming, mind numbing game play anyone can ever want is there for the taking.  

By the way, Vangaurd was YOUR game but YOU people didn't like it because it was a buggy mess, but failed to remember just how BAD EQ was.  See, you played WOW.  Your expectations were driven higher and you didn't even know it.  So when presented with exactly what YOU all were asking for, YOU balked and called it crap.  You know WHY?  Because Vangaurd was crap and it wasn't a far stretch from EQ which is also crap by todays standards.  It didn't feel like crap back in 1999, because EVERYTHING was crap=)

THAT'S what WOW did for the world of MMOs.  It opened people's eyes.  It showed people the difference between a quality GAME and what MMO's used to be.  Now the genie is out of the bottle and you can NEVER go back.  YOU people couldn't accept an EQ if it was placed right in front of you....and it was.  Its name was Vangaurd and it basically failed, and its all YOUR fault.  Not Blizzard's.  YOU guys didn't embrace it because YOU guys will never embrace anything ever again, because that feeling you're trying to recapture is long, long gone.

Truth hurts, I know=)

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by raystantz

 WoW is not a bad game.. for what it is.

WoW is the "new wave" MMO. Its meant to be targeted to this generation.

It was never meant to be something the old timers would like. It just wasn't designed that way. They wanted to appeal to everyone.. even people who previously wouldn't have given a rats ass about playing an MMO. They'd rather play Halo any day of the week. But, Blizzard took that and ran with it, and polished their game for those people, leaving the people who kept the genre alive out in the cold while they focused on people who up until this point could give a crap about playing an MMO. They want instant fun and gratification and thats what Blizzard gave them.

Those of us who were brought up on UO, and old school EQ had to suffer through the endless amounts of idiots, and young kids who had never played an MMO before. We had to suffer through the easy peasy content that was designed for those same group of folks, and we have to currently suffer through the endless amount of content rehashing that Blizzard does in order to keep those group of folks playing. Its obviously about nothing more than $$$ and there's nothing wrong with that.. but unfortunately, it drove a stake into the heart of the players who made the MMO genre what it is. 

For us, we still have a few games that aren't catering to those people.. but the number is slowly dwindling, and each year more and more companies take the "WoW path" and fail miserably.. WoW already has all those people.. so why not make something for the rest of us?

 

Amen brother.

But IMO, I think the main thing is that frustrates most old school players is the inability of the new generation to SEE our frustration, and why it's there. If we dare whisper for an MMO, 1 MMO!!!....to return to the genre's roots for our sake...add the challenge back into it, the meaningful questing and deep, rich story arcs, a reason to fear death, etc , we get chastise for it.

Selfish if you ask me. There are TONS of MMO's out there to cater to them, when is it our turn? And they can bring up that "Your the minority, why would they want to make a game for you." I can assure you there are enough players out there that want such a game, and it would be popular. Maybe not near as popular as WoW, but it would pay the bills.

You had your turn and now its over=)  OR, go play Eve.  All the overly difficult, time consuming, mind numbing game play anyone can ever want is there for the taking.  

By the way, Vangaurd was YOUR game but YOU people didn't like it because it was a buggy mess, but failed to remember just how BAD EQ was.  See, you played WOW.  Your expectations were driven higher and you didn't even know it.  So when presented with exactly what YOU all were asking for, YOU balked and called it crap.  You know WHY?  Because Vangaurd was crap and it wasn't a far stretch from EQ which is also crap by todays standards.  It didn't feel like crap back in 1999, because EVERYTHING was crap=)

THAT'S what WOW did for the world of MMOs.  It opened people's eyes.  It showed people the difference between a quality GAME and what MMO's used to be.  Now the genie is out of the bottle and you can NEVER go back.  YOU people couldn't accept an EQ if it was placed right in front of you....and it was.  Its name was Vangaurd and it basically failed, and its all YOUR fault.  Not Blizzard's.  YOU guys didn't embrace it because YOU guys will never embrace anything ever again, because that feeling you're trying to recapture is long, long gone.

Truth hurts, I know=)

Um...yeah. Thanks for proving my point.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by raystantz

 WoW is not a bad game.. for what it is.

WoW is the "new wave" MMO. Its meant to be targeted to this generation.

It was never meant to be something the old timers would like. It just wasn't designed that way. They wanted to appeal to everyone.. even people who previously wouldn't have given a rats ass about playing an MMO. They'd rather play Halo any day of the week. But, Blizzard took that and ran with it, and polished their game for those people, leaving the people who kept the genre alive out in the cold while they focused on people who up until this point could give a crap about playing an MMO. They want instant fun and gratification and thats what Blizzard gave them.

Those of us who were brought up on UO, and old school EQ had to suffer through the endless amounts of idiots, and young kids who had never played an MMO before. We had to suffer through the easy peasy content that was designed for those same group of folks, and we have to currently suffer through the endless amount of content rehashing that Blizzard does in order to keep those group of folks playing. Its obviously about nothing more than $$$ and there's nothing wrong with that.. but unfortunately, it drove a stake into the heart of the players who made the MMO genre what it is. 

For us, we still have a few games that aren't catering to those people.. but the number is slowly dwindling, and each year more and more companies take the "WoW path" and fail miserably.. WoW already has all those people.. so why not make something for the rest of us?

 

Amen brother.

But IMO, I think the main thing is that frustrates most old school players is the inability of the new generation to SEE our frustration, and why it's there. If we dare whisper for an MMO, 1 MMO!!!....to return to the genre's roots for our sake...add the challenge back into it, the meaningful questing and deep, rich story arcs, a reason to fear death, etc , we get chastise for it.

Selfish if you ask me. There are TONS of MMO's out there to cater to them, when is it our turn? And they can bring up that "Your the minority, why would they want to make a game for you." I can assure you there are enough players out there that want such a game, and it would be popular. Maybe not near as popular as WoW, but it would pay the bills.

I fit into your classification of old school players, but I just don't share your view of the hows and whys.  The notion that mmos were so much better back in the good old days, but at the same time couldn't attract more people is sort of a self defeating argument.

Story rich old games?  Challenging? Deep meaningful quests?  That does not describe the old world games, sorry.  They were mostly time sinks with designs that punished players to increase time needed to do anything.  Sorry I just see old games for what they were and most people do not find it fun to spend more time waiting to do things than actually playing.  We are talking about games after all.

They were fun for their times, but they were also rough ugly designs that were flawed in many ways.  Nothing is going to recapture that magic for us, because it was so fresh and new back then.  It will never ever happen again.  No one is ever going to make something that recreates that and trying to blame anything for that is just dumb. 

Honestly the way people talk about the old days you make it sound like the perfect mmo design was nailed with the first graphical mmo to hit the market and everything since then has screwed up gaming.  Come on, sure it was fun back then, but who knew any better?  Did it ever occur to you that the original mmos were just flawed and that is why they never hit it big?  That is why they primarily attracted one small demographic of 20 something obsessive compulsive tech savy people? 

Furthermore, no one is telling you or anyone else that they cannot have another style of game that caters to your personal choices.  Yet here you are blaming one game for all that is lacking in your gaming world, which sounds rather selfish since you brought it up.  I'm sorry few companies have tried to cater to your preferences and none have even come close to offering you a decent product to grab your attention, but that fault lies on someone elses shoulders.  Has it ever occured that maybe the huge old school market you think exists just doesn't anymore or that maybe it is filled with a bunch of fickle bitches that are never happy with anything anymore?  There has to be a reason no one wants a piece of that pie, especially considering it is wide open for the taking.

Honestly I think most people in this thread just want another type of mmo that would measure up to wow.  I know I am ready for a new game, but there just isn't anything that is really worth spending time on. It is a sad sad market right now and I don't think the answer is to drag down the one game that rises above the rest in some wierd attempt to make everything so ugly so that no one is ugly.  

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by raystantz

 WoW is not a bad game.. for what it is.

WoW is the "new wave" MMO. Its meant to be targeted to this generation.

It was never meant to be something the old timers would like. It just wasn't designed that way. They wanted to appeal to everyone.. even people who previously wouldn't have given a rats ass about playing an MMO. They'd rather play Halo any day of the week. But, Blizzard took that and ran with it, and polished their game for those people, leaving the people who kept the genre alive out in the cold while they focused on people who up until this point could give a crap about playing an MMO. They want instant fun and gratification and thats what Blizzard gave them.

Those of us who were brought up on UO, and old school EQ had to suffer through the endless amounts of idiots, and young kids who had never played an MMO before. We had to suffer through the easy peasy content that was designed for those same group of folks, and we have to currently suffer through the endless amount of content rehashing that Blizzard does in order to keep those group of folks playing. Its obviously about nothing more than $$$ and there's nothing wrong with that.. but unfortunately, it drove a stake into the heart of the players who made the MMO genre what it is. 

For us, we still have a few games that aren't catering to those people.. but the number is slowly dwindling, and each year more and more companies take the "WoW path" and fail miserably.. WoW already has all those people.. so why not make something for the rest of us?

 

Amen brother.

But IMO, I think the main thing is that frustrates most old school players is the inability of the new generation to SEE our frustration, and why it's there. If we dare whisper for an MMO, 1 MMO!!!....to return to the genre's roots for our sake...add the challenge back into it, the meaningful questing and deep, rich story arcs, a reason to fear death, etc , we get chastise for it.

Selfish if you ask me. There are TONS of MMO's out there to cater to them, when is it our turn? And they can bring up that "Your the minority, why would they want to make a game for you." I can assure you there are enough players out there that want such a game, and it would be popular. Maybe not near as popular as WoW, but it would pay the bills.

I fit into your classification of old school players, but I just don't share your view of the hows and whys.  The notion that mmos were so much better back in the good old days, but at the same time couldn't attract more people is sort of a self defeating argument.

Story rich old games?  Challenging? Deep meaningful quests?  That does not describe the old world games, sorry.  They were mostly time sinks with designs that punished players to increase time needed to do anything.  Sorry I just see old games for what they were and most people do not find it fun to spend more time waiting to do things than actually playing.  We are talking about games after all.

They were fun for their times, but they were also rough ugly designs that were flawed in many ways.  Nothing is going to recapture that magic for us, because it was so fresh and new back then.  It will never ever happen again.  No one is ever going to make something that recreates that and trying to blame anything for that is just dumb. 

Honestly the way people talk about the old days you make it sound like the perfect mmo design was nailed with the first graphical mmo to hit the market.  Come on, sure it was fun back then, but who knew any better?  Did it ever occur to you that the original mmos were just flawed and that is why they never hit it big?  That is why they primarily attracted one small demographic of 20 something obsessive compulsive tech savy people? 

 

Furthermore, no one is telling you or anyone else that they cannot have another style of game that caters to your personal choices.  Yet here you are blaming one game for all that is lacking in your gaming world, which sounds rather selfish since you brought it up.  I'm sorry few companies have tried to cater to your preferences and none have even come close to offering you a decent product to grab your attention, but that fault lies on someone elses shoulders. 

 

Honestly I think most people in this thread just want another type of mmo that would measure up to wow.  I know I am ready for a new game, but there just isn't anything that is really worth spending time on. It is a sad sad market right now and I don't think the answer is to drag down the one game that rises above the rest in some wierd attempt to make everything so ugly so that no one is.  

 

 

I know I don't want to pay $50-$60 for an MMO I can reach the end of in a month either. That is what console games do already.

I also said to bring back some of those elements, but with polish like some MMO's today possess. Meaning bring back those types of old school elements, but with a bit of a new age twists to them.

- Rich, deep storyline/ background story. (That doesn't look simply thrown together)

- Meaningful quests with actual story arc and journey/adventure/mystery to them. (Not "Kill/Collect X amount of X" quests over and over, and over...)

- Difficulty. Not insane difficulty, but make my heart race. Make death mean something so we fear it and it makes the battles that much more intense. (Not, I can kill 4 mobs at a time with a loaf of bread easy. And if I DO die somehow, oh well, only inconvenience is a run to ...oh wait, I respawn at a SAFE POINT, nm.)

- etc, etc.

Just as Blizzard took elements of OLD SCHOOL games and refined them. It can be done again with different twists on them, and different elements used.

Great games pull emotions from the player, that is (At least for me) what makes them great to play. MMO's anymore have become like a cubicle job....same routine, same uninspired work.

 WoW has not killed the mmo genre.  It's dumbed it down and made the genre more accessible to millions of players.

Some people would consider that the death of mmos, others don't.

Myself...I couldn't care less either way.

LOL

WoW did not kill MMO's  BUT...

Video killed the radio star.   Also...I shot the Sheriff but I did NOT shoot the deputy.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by raystantz

 WoW is not a bad game.. for what it is.

WoW is the "new wave" MMO. Its meant to be targeted to this generation.

It was never meant to be something the old timers would like. It just wasn't designed that way. They wanted to appeal to everyone.. even people who previously wouldn't have given a rats ass about playing an MMO. They'd rather play Halo any day of the week. But, Blizzard took that and ran with it, and polished their game for those people, leaving the people who kept the genre alive out in the cold while they focused on people who up until this point could give a crap about playing an MMO. They want instant fun and gratification and thats what Blizzard gave them.

Those of us who were brought up on UO, and old school EQ had to suffer through the endless amounts of idiots, and young kids who had never played an MMO before. We had to suffer through the easy peasy content that was designed for those same group of folks, and we have to currently suffer through the endless amount of content rehashing that Blizzard does in order to keep those group of folks playing. Its obviously about nothing more than $$$ and there's nothing wrong with that.. but unfortunately, it drove a stake into the heart of the players who made the MMO genre what it is. 

For us, we still have a few games that aren't catering to those people.. but the number is slowly dwindling, and each year more and more companies take the "WoW path" and fail miserably.. WoW already has all those people.. so why not make something for the rest of us?

 

Amen brother.

But IMO, I think the main thing is that frustrates most old school players is the inability of the new generation to SEE our frustration, and why it's there. If we dare whisper for an MMO, 1 MMO!!!....to return to the genre's roots for our sake...add the challenge back into it, the meaningful questing and deep, rich story arcs, a reason to fear death, etc , we get chastise for it.

Selfish if you ask me. There are TONS of MMO's out there to cater to them, when is it our turn? And they can bring up that "Your the minority, why would they want to make a game for you." I can assure you there are enough players out there that want such a game, and it would be popular. Maybe not near as popular as WoW, but it would pay the bills.

You had your turn and now its over=)  OR, go play Eve.  All the overly difficult, time consuming, mind numbing game play anyone can ever want is there for the taking.  

By the way, Vangaurd was YOUR game but YOU people didn't like it because it was a buggy mess, but failed to remember just how BAD EQ was.  See, you played WOW.  Your expectations were driven higher and you didn't even know it.  So when presented with exactly what YOU all were asking for, YOU balked and called it crap.  You know WHY?  Because Vangaurd was crap and it wasn't a far stretch from EQ which is also crap by todays standards.  It didn't feel like crap back in 1999, because EVERYTHING was crap=)

THAT'S what WOW did for the world of MMOs.  It opened people's eyes.  It showed people the difference between a quality GAME and what MMO's used to be.  Now the genie is out of the bottle and you can NEVER go back.  YOU people couldn't accept an EQ if it was placed right in front of you....and it was.  Its name was Vangaurd and it basically failed, and its all YOUR fault.  Not Blizzard's.  YOU guys didn't embrace it because YOU guys will never embrace anything ever again, because that feeling you're trying to recapture is long, long gone.

Truth hurts, I know=)

OKAY, WoW fanboy. So, by saying we don't want a 'buggy mess' it's our fault and we've got to accept it? I'm sorry, I played WoW and it's for a simple mind, and it's CRAP..I like a game that's complex, I like researching and using my head to complete things..WoW (Crap) didn't do anything for MMO's except make a home for the mass amount of players that can't or chose not to work towards a goal..This type of game is more MIND NUMBING to me, why on earth would I want to play a game where I don't have to use my mind? I agree WoW opened peoples eyes, but only because it caught the eye of a new generation of gamers (console, FPS, etc) and some of the old-school MMO players. Blizzard had better marketting and alot more people had computers that could actually handle the graphics at the time (as crappy as they are).. Still the only good games to come out of Blizzard is the old Warcraft 2/SC.

If EQ came out after WoW, I totally think the tables would be turned. It was the start of the MMO evolution, not alot of people knew about it but still it's being played 10 years after, so much for being 'crap'.

Originally posted by raystantz

Originally posted by emperorwings

Sorry to say it but WoW copied EQ1. I think WoW handled the instancing better though.  WoW copied EQ1 EQ2 copied WoW. Subject up for debate.

Actually EQ2 was in development a bit before WoW.. for example. WoW's gryphons.... yep.. they were in EQ2 first. 

 

WoW took the things that they liked from other games and polished them and put them in their own. Similar to the way Aion has done.

The gryphons in WoW more than likely originated from the gryphon riders in Warcraft 2.  Of course, this was in 1995, so I'm guessing EQ2 wasn't being developed at that time.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by raystantz

 WoW is not a bad game.. for what it is.

WoW is the "new wave" MMO. Its meant to be targeted to this generation.

It was never meant to be something the old timers would like. It just wasn't designed that way. They wanted to appeal to everyone.. even people who previously wouldn't have given a rats ass about playing an MMO. They'd rather play Halo any day of the week. But, Blizzard took that and ran with it, and polished their game for those people, leaving the people who kept the genre alive out in the cold while they focused on people who up until this point could give a crap about playing an MMO. They want instant fun and gratification and thats what Blizzard gave them.

Those of us who were brought up on UO, and old school EQ had to suffer through the endless amounts of idiots, and young kids who had never played an MMO before. We had to suffer through the easy peasy content that was designed for those same group of folks, and we have to currently suffer through the endless amount of content rehashing that Blizzard does in order to keep those group of folks playing. Its obviously about nothing more than $$$ and there's nothing wrong with that.. but unfortunately, it drove a stake into the heart of the players who made the MMO genre what it is. 

For us, we still have a few games that aren't catering to those people.. but the number is slowly dwindling, and each year more and more companies take the "WoW path" and fail miserably.. WoW already has all those people.. so why not make something for the rest of us?

 

Amen brother.

But IMO, I think the main thing is that frustrates most old school players is the inability of the new generation to SEE our frustration, and why it's there. If we dare whisper for an MMO, 1 MMO!!!....to return to the genre's roots for our sake...add the challenge back into it, the meaningful questing and deep, rich story arcs, a reason to fear death, etc , we get chastise for it.

Selfish if you ask me. There are TONS of MMO's out there to cater to them, when is it our turn? And they can bring up that "Your the minority, why would they want to make a game for you." I can assure you there are enough players out there that want such a game, and it would be popular. Maybe not near as popular as WoW, but it would pay the bills.

You had your turn and now its over=)  OR, go play Eve.  All the overly difficult, time consuming, mind numbing game play anyone can ever want is there for the taking.  

By the way, Vangaurd was YOUR game but YOU people didn't like it because it was a buggy mess, but failed to remember just how BAD EQ was.  See, you played WOW.  Your expectations were driven higher and you didn't even know it.  So when presented with exactly what YOU all were asking for, YOU balked and called it crap.  You know WHY?  Because Vangaurd was crap and it wasn't a far stretch from EQ which is also crap by todays standards.  It didn't feel like crap back in 1999, because EVERYTHING was crap=)

THAT'S what WOW did for the world of MMOs.  It opened people's eyes.  It showed people the difference between a quality GAME and what MMO's used to be.  Now the genie is out of the bottle and you can NEVER go back.  YOU people couldn't accept an EQ if it was placed right in front of you....and it was.  Its name was Vangaurd and it basically failed, and its all YOUR fault.  Not Blizzard's.  YOU guys didn't embrace it because YOU guys will never embrace anything ever again, because that feeling you're trying to recapture is long, long gone.

Truth hurts, I know=)

Wow... so let me get this right.... it is OUR fault that a game that was supposed to give us what we wanted (just like dozens and dozens of games have been hyped up to do), failed at doing it and was horribly buggy and runs like complete crap? Yeah that makes sense, i guess we programmed and developed the game and put all the bugs and problems in it. But i guess we are supposed to put u with a game no matter how problematic and how dull it is, just because it supposedly offers what YOU think we want. I guess by your logic, that would explain why WoW has been severely dumbed down and can easily be mastered by a 5 year old with 1 arm and the IQ of a rock... because the players made it that way.

I love how as soon as you counter any argument made by a WoW hater they immediately call you a "fanboi" and dismiss you.  I also have played just about ever p2p mmorpg in the last 10 years, trying to recapture that feeling that my first one, AC, gave me.  I really liked EQ for a while, then AO, DAoC, and many others.  I probably played WoW the longest because it's just an all around good, solid game.  I found some good gamers to play with and that makes all the difference.  A game is what you make it.  If you're a hardcore gamer, one that plays every waking moment and studies the game mechanics religiously in order to "pwn" all the "nubs" that dare to challenge you, you probably won't like WoW.  It's a casual game and makes no apologies for it.  WoW actually listens to it's player base and implements changes accordingly.  The problem is that hardcore gamers aren't the majority in WoW.  So the game has gone in a different direction then they would like and it has been very successful.  The only thing WoW has affected as far as other games are concerned is making the mmorpg industry a viable investment, giving us a lot more games to choose from.  Just look at the games in the mmorpg.com list.  There are dozens of games with many varying gamestyles.  There are several games out there that would be considered hardcore at various stages of development.  If you don't like those games, is that WoW's fault?  I think the OP has the same problem I do, mmorpg burnout.  10 years is a long time to play one type of game.  I'm bored with them all and may just wait for the next batch and check them out.  But to attack the most successful mmorpg ever or blame the WoW community is just selfish venting of your frustration.  I know because I had similar feelings for a while until I recognized it was silly to hate a computer game for being popular. 

Originally posted by antaras

<Mod Edit>

Eh, sorry but id have to disagree with you there. Sure it may be the game that millions happened to go for, but if not WoW, it would have been another game anyway. Its not like gaming was dying out or anything, it was growing year after year, including the MMORPG genre. Like i said people may have picked it, due to its polish, marketing, easiness, etc (whatever teh reason), but MMOers still would have been MMOers regardless. Its not like WoW did anything really revolutionary, or like technology advanced greatly due to WoW, they just had the best product at the time, and have been milking it for all they can since. Unfortunately a great majority of players have trouble shifting to anything new that theyve played WoW. They always complain "this game doesnt have (insert WoW feature here), it sucks, im going back to WoW", while at the same time, they go to WoW-clone types and complain "this is just like Wow, this sucks, im going back to it"... kind of contradictory. I kind of understand it though, i mean most people have been playing WoW for several years, theyre used to that playstyle and those features that keep them hooked, so when anything else comes along they have trouble adapting and it leaves a bad taste in their mouth. Fortunately I am one of the people who plays multiple genres on multiple platforms and can easily adapt to new mechanics and combat systems, and to me WoW just gets extremely boring very fast.

I think the biggest problem with the genre now since WoW is that people have basically gotten lazy and are incapable of changing from what they already know. You cant deny that WoW is pretty easy, it mainly consists of tab targeting and pressing a memorized number of hotkeys in a specific order depending on your class/role. There really is not much thinking to it once youve got it down after a few days. That isnt really too much of a bad thing in itself, easy to play = more people want it, they dont want to have to really work and think and react and practice and involve true skill in their gaming. They say things like "its a game, i want to have fun, not work"... but at the same time isnt that part of the fun? doing something that requires a bit more skill and practice and ingenuity in order to be the best at it, perhaps being capable of things that others arent capable of, rather than being no different in any way than the millions your playing with? I suppose if they were to redo WoW, with a lot of the same basics but with a slightly more twitch style of combat requiring more skillful play and tactics, rather than the auto-win game it has become, i would find it much more entertaining.

Unfortunately the playstyle of WoW has become dominant in the genre, and the devs keep setting up games to play almost identical to WoW, so people feel a bit more comfortable making the switch and increasing their subs, which is a stupid move IMO. Why would people leave WoW, only to play basically the exact same game with a different skin? If  any of these companies really want to make a big impact on the genre/market and see anywhere near the number of subs of WoW theyre going to need to break the mold and find something that people can pick up and play just as easily, but takes a bit more finesse to truly master, while keeping it fun rather than feeling like a job. Fallen Earth is a good example of this. Though I dont expect FE to do anywhere near as well as WoW due to the graphics, setting, and a few other things. However the mix of RPG elements with a FPS twist on the combat was a very good way to go. It is definitely more sandboxy than WoW as far as the freedom to develop your toon exactly how you want, while needing to constantly use and upgrade skills to stay on top, while at the same time keeping it more fun to do because of teh combat style (as opposed to many other sandbox type games where you pretty much pick a spot, and just sit there grinding nonstop repeatedly pressing the same hotkey without even having to think about whats happening. If another company with a bigger budget were to create something pretty close to it and just mainstream the game a bit more, then we might see a pretty dramatic shift in the genre.

The last time I said something about WoW, it was on the WoW forum and I was defending it from another one of those silly posts about how WoW is going to collapse.  For that, I had my post removed and was sent a warning for TROLLING.

So, to keep MMORPG.com happy, here's my take on the situation...

WoW is good.

You believe me don't you?

Ken

WoW wasn't revolutionary , evolutionary or anything special. It was WoW who in a sense was a clone of every thing else that came before it. All they did was create a somewhat polished version of every other game that was on the market at the time.

What WoW did was really change the face of that oh so cool game and turned it into a dollar sign. Silly game developers saw the success of an easy mode game that could be played from ages 10-70 and wanted to try and tap into a market that was dominantly established already.

Lets not forget that World of Warcraft was really a LATE comer to the MMO industry. Their were things that i wanted in other games. Two of the greatest features of WOW was the mail system and Auction house. Thats now standard in most MMO's of recent release.

Though incredibly successful imo WoW hurt MMO gaming because what was cool about MMO's pre WoW was new experiences. You got to see the creativity of game developers. They made the game in their vision. Warhammer flopped because it forgot about its loyal fan base DAOC ers and gave it a WOW flavor. That was probably my biggest gaming let down ever after spending so much time in DAOC  which i still play to date.

I won't buy a new MMO unless it 100% doesn't have that WoW feel to it. I want new, fun and unique. A gaming experience instead of just loggin in killing bears and making levels. Rinse and repeat. I really miss the day where MMO's were where Adults went to play online. It's not nor will it ever be the same ever again.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by raystantz

 WoW is not a bad game.. for what it is.

WoW is the "new wave" MMO. Its meant to be targeted to this generation.

It was never meant to be something the old timers would like. It just wasn't designed that way. They wanted to appeal to everyone.. even people who previously wouldn't have given a rats ass about playing an MMO. They'd rather play Halo any day of the week. But, Blizzard took that and ran with it, and polished their game for those people, leaving the people who kept the genre alive out in the cold while they focused on people who up until this point could give a crap about playing an MMO. They want instant fun and gratification and thats what Blizzard gave them.

Those of us who were brought up on UO, and old school EQ had to suffer through the endless amounts of idiots, and young kids who had never played an MMO before. We had to suffer through the easy peasy content that was designed for those same group of folks, and we have to currently suffer through the endless amount of content rehashing that Blizzard does in order to keep those group of folks playing. Its obviously about nothing more than $$$ and there's nothing wrong with that.. but unfortunately, it drove a stake into the heart of the players who made the MMO genre what it is. 

For us, we still have a few games that aren't catering to those people.. but the number is slowly dwindling, and each year more and more companies take the "WoW path" and fail miserably.. WoW already has all those people.. so why not make something for the rest of us?

 

Amen brother.

But IMO, I think the main thing is that frustrates most old school players is the inability of the new generation to SEE our frustration, and why it's there. If we dare whisper for an MMO, 1 MMO!!!....to return to the genre's roots for our sake...add the challenge back into it, the meaningful questing and deep, rich story arcs, a reason to fear death, etc , we get chastise for it.

Selfish if you ask me. There are TONS of MMO's out there to cater to them, when is it our turn? And they can bring up that "Your the minority, why would they want to make a game for you." I can assure you there are enough players out there that want such a game, and it would be popular. Maybe not near as popular as WoW, but it would pay the bills.

I fit into your classification of old school players, but I just don't share your view of the hows and whys.  The notion that mmos were so much better back in the good old days, but at the same time couldn't attract more people is sort of a self defeating argument.

Story rich old games?  Challenging? Deep meaningful quests?  That does not describe the old world games, sorry.  They were mostly time sinks with designs that punished players to increase time needed to do anything.  Sorry I just see old games for what they were and most people do not find it fun to spend more time waiting to do things than actually playing.  We are talking about games after all.

They were fun for their times, but they were also rough ugly designs that were flawed in many ways.  Nothing is going to recapture that magic for us, because it was so fresh and new back then.  It will never ever happen again.  No one is ever going to make something that recreates that and trying to blame anything for that is just dumb. 

Honestly the way people talk about the old days you make it sound like the perfect mmo design was nailed with the first graphical mmo to hit the market and everything since then has screwed up gaming.  Come on, sure it was fun back then, but who knew any better?  Did it ever occur to you that the original mmos were just flawed and that is why they never hit it big?  That is why they primarily attracted one small demographic of 20 something obsessive compulsive tech savy people? 

 

Furthermore, no one is telling you or anyone else that they cannot have another style of game that caters to your personal choices.  Yet here you are blaming one game for all that is lacking in your gaming world, which sounds rather selfish since you brought it up.  I'm sorry few companies have tried to cater to your preferences and none have even come close to offering you a decent product to grab your attention, but that fault lies on someone elses shoulders.  Has it ever occured that maybe the huge old school market you think exists just doesn't anymore or that maybe it is filled with a bunch of fickle bitches that are never happy with anything anymore?  There has to be a reason no one wants a piece of that pie, especially considering it is wide open for the taking.

 

Honestly I think most people in this thread just want another type of mmo that would measure up to wow.  I know I am ready for a new game, but there just isn't anything that is really worth spending time on. It is a sad sad market right now and I don't think the answer is to drag down the one game that rises above the rest in some wierd attempt to make everything so ugly so that no one is ugly.  

 

 

You and I, my friend, are in complete and utter agreement. 

So, what games (that were fun to play)  had different formula's? There are only so many types of fun things to do that van be created in a video game.  Everybody speaks of the age for WoW as some golden age of peace and presperity for MMO's before the dark-lord Blizzard covered the lands with the never-ending night that is "World of Warcraft". I have played several MMO's - Hell, you could even say I played one of the true originals with "Legend of the Red Dragon" and "Exitilus". Was Ultima Online without a grind? Did it have amazing new quests that were somehow lost in time? Has the Dark-Lord Blizzard stolen away the secrets that made DAOC and Everquest NOT a grind? Because I've played those games. DAOC made me want to kill myself, Ultima Online was populated by douche-bag player killers, and Everquest was fun, but it WAS A GRIND! There are other options, like Ryzom which has fresh innovative quests that require you to kill mobs and gather materials... oh wait. Global Mu was just like Diablo (that's different how?). All I'm trying to say is that WoW is not the big, bad wolf. If you have new ideas for content, then get them out there- these companies all want to make money and, as and industry, the MMO market really is the most responsive to its customers. They give us what we want, because as customers, we are probably the hardest to please. But seriously, stop with the boogey-man victim nonsense (not you, specifically, all of us). If we want something different, we need to ask for what we want instead of complaining about what we have.

Originally posted by Astralglide

So, what games (that were fun to play)  had different formula's? There are only so many types of fun things to do that van be created in a video game.  Everybody speaks of the age before WoW as some golden age of peace and presperity for MMO's before the dark-lord Blizzard covered the lands with the never-ending night that is "World of Warcraft". I have played several MMO's - Hell, you could even say I played one of the true originals with "Legend of the Red Dragon" and "Exitilus". Was Ultima Online without a grind? Did it have amazing new quests that were somehow lost in time? Has the Dark-Lord Blizzard stolen away the secrets that made DAOC and Everquest NOT a grind? Because I've played those games. DAOC made me want to kill myself, Ultima Online was populated by douche-bag player killers, and Everquest was fun, but it WAS A GRIND! There are other options, like Ryzom which has fresh innovative quests that require you to kill mobs and gather materials... oh wait. Global Mu was just like Diablo (that's different how?). All I'm trying to say is that WoW is not the big, bad wolf. If you have new ideas for content, then get them out there- these companies all want to make money and, as and industry, the MMO market really is the most responsive to its customers. They give us what we want, because as customers, we are probably the hardest to please. But seriously, stop with the boogey-man victim nonsense (not you, specifically, all of us). If we want something different, we need to ask for what we want instead of complaining about what we have.

I do believe you just created a new MMO with that sentence.