When you hit rock bottom, there's nowhere to go except up.

When you tasted WoW pie. Every thing else is fairy bread.

You can always count on a good month of enjoyment after an expansion ;)

i have a good aspect of WoW, they set up a  bar so high that it kills other MMO's,  so far :P

It is polished more than a brand new crack pipe.

It has more features than a brand new crack pipe.

If WoW never came out, would there be as  many MMO's out today as there are? Yeah alot of them suck, but WoW has also caused competition to sky rocket.

WoW, whether its my opinion or not, is the best MMO out there. People complain about WoW ruining things, but if you look back to you favortie MMO, mine being EQ1, those developers haven't done anything that comes close to WoW. So who do you blame? WoW or the developers that once delievered that no longer can?

The only thing i think that WoW did that the other MMO games didn't do at the time was the faster pace of leveling.  It also had a world made from a cartoonie art form and the questing system was better implimented than the others.  Although others like EQ had quests they didn't pay off as well as the ones in Wow. 

Originally posted by buegur

The only thing i think that WoW did that the other MMO games didn't do at the time was the faster pace of leveling.  It also had a world made from a cartoonie art form and the questing system was better implimented than the others.  Although others like EQ had quests they didn't pay off as well as the ones in Wow. 

Not sure how you can compare WoWs quests with EQs.  WoW you just walk up to a ? - right click - blindly accept - follow the marker - right click the ! - click complete.  In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular.  Bottom line is you had better have read the quest thoroughly.  And if you go online and look up the quest, then you're only cheating yourself the experience.

I would rather do 5 quests in EQ than 500 quests in WoW.

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

No, that was questing in traditional single and multiplayer games back in the 90s and early 2000s'.  NPC's would provide clues, but players would have to interact with NPC's and try to say the correct keywords to extract the information need to complete the quest. 

It was a different design that did not appeal to the mass market, hence it was changed to what we have today, mindless quests that no one bothers to even read, much less interact with an NPC.

Its a shame the adventure game genre died, so many people don't know how to play games like them anymore.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

No, that was questing in traditional single and multiplayer games back in the 90s and early 2000s'.  NPC's would provide clues, but players would have to interact with NPC's and try to say the correct keywords to extract the information need to complete the quest. 

It was a different design that did not appeal to the mass market, hence it was changed to what we have today, mindless quests that no one bothers to even read, much less interact with an NPC.

Its a shame the adventure game genre died, so many people don't know how to play games like them anymore.

 

 

So this was a 'detective' quest rather than a 'task' quest?  Those always seemed more in place in adventure games rather than RPGs.

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Originally posted by heremypet

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Originally posted by buegur

The only thing i think that WoW did that the other MMO games didn't do at the time was the faster pace of leveling.  It also had a world made from a cartoonie art form and the questing system was better implimented than the others.  Although others like EQ had quests they didn't pay off as well as the ones in Wow. 

---

Not sure how you can compare WoWs quests with EQs.  WoW you just walk up to a ? - right click - blindly accept - follow the marker - right click the ! - click complete.  In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular.  Bottom line is you had better have read the quest thoroughly.  And if you go online and look up the quest, then you're only cheating yourself the experience.
I would rather do 5 quests in EQ than 500 quests in WoW.

---

A thousand times this. The thing WoW has done that is bad for the genre is making things fast and easy. I really enjoy things like the quests in EQ.

However, I am glad so many people are trying to make MMOs now. We would never have had this many companies working on games, and that is a good thing. WoW also set a standard of polish that EQ did not have, and I think we can agree that more polish is also a good thing.

I do not enjoy the game, but what it has done for the industry is a good thing.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

No, that was questing in traditional single and multiplayer games back in the 90s and early 2000s'.  NPC's would provide clues, but players would have to interact with NPC's and try to say the correct keywords to extract the information need to complete the quest. 

It was a different design that did not appeal to the mass market, hence it was changed to what we have today, mindless quests that no one bothers to even read, much less interact with an NPC.

Its a shame the adventure game genre died, so many people don't know how to play games like them anymore.

 

 

Um yeah. No. The adventue game genre will always be my hands down favorite, and Quest For Glory will always be my favorite franchise. Ever. Period.

Kings Quest not far behind...

I run Windows 3.1 in Dosbox in Vista64 just so I can play the Windows version of Kings Quest VI CD which has extra features which rely on an ancient video codec. I use my original CD which I got at a discount because you could buy an "upgrade" if you owned a previous Kings Quest game... Kings Quest IV having been my favorite one of my games for many years (so yeah, I know the old school parser system also... Quest for Glory II FTW).

So yeah... Adventure Games are my true first love...

And I F'IN HATED THE S&^T OUT OF TRYING TO NAVIGATE EQ'S QUEST SYSTEM!!!!

Seriously. I never bothered with it. It was easier and funner to sit in the would and grind monsters.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

No, it's called mystery and adventure...and making you use your brain to figure it out. THAT is what a real quest is. Not connect the dots GPS crap like found in WoW and all of it's clones.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

     Maybe he DOESN'T want you to do something. Maybe you want him to do something, and you're talking him in to it. Or maybe he's ambivalent about anybody doing anything, and you just squeeze a tip out of him through innocent conversation. Maybe he's just that kind of wizardy guy who LIKES to play 20 questions, to test and see if you're worthy of the quest.

     But no, you're right.  It was such a major step of evolution in gameplay when the text became superfluous.

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

     Maybe he DOESN'T want you to do something. Maybe you want him to do something, and you're talking him in to it. Or maybe he's ambivalent about anybody doing anything, and you just squeeze a tip out of him through innocent conversation. Maybe he's just that kind of wizardy guy who LIKES to play 20 questions, to test and see if you're worthy of the quest.

     But no, you're right.  It was such a major step of evolution in gameplay when the text became superfluous.

Exactly these brain washed wowbies are clueless.

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

     Maybe he DOESN'T want you to do something. Maybe you want him to do something, and you're talking him in to it. Or maybe he's ambivalent about anybody doing anything, and you just squeeze a tip out of him through innocent conversation. Maybe he's just that kind of wizardy guy who LIKES to play 20 questions, to test and see if you're worthy of the quest.

     But no, you're right.  It was such a major step of evolution in gameplay when the text became superfluous.

Then that is an 'obscure mystery' quest.  My problem with those quests has always been that they tend to too easily devolve into just doing random stuff in the hope that something happens.  It is the reason why I stopped playing adventure games.  Games after King's Quest 5 too easily fell into that trap and stopped making logical sense. 

I am all for well designed mystery quests but want them to make logical sense rather than use 'mystery by obscurity'. 

lol you guys do realize that the TC meant that WoW  is such a piece of garbage and because of It games have gotten so bad that there's nowhere to go except up. That things have gotten so bad that they can't possibly get any worse, so there's only room to improve.

WoW fulfils a very valuable role.

It gives all the bitter and unfulfilled gamers a target for their nerd rage.

Rage on, crazy nerds. Rage on.

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

     Maybe he DOESN'T want you to do something. Maybe you want him to do something, and you're talking him in to it. Or maybe he's ambivalent about anybody doing anything, and you just squeeze a tip out of him through innocent conversation. Maybe he's just that kind of wizardy guy who LIKES to play 20 questions, to test and see if you're worthy of the quest.

     But no, you're right.  It was such a major step of evolution in gameplay when the text became superfluous.

I don't want to come across as a big fan of the quests in EQ because I wasn't really.  I neither loved nor hated quests in EQ.  But it was at least somewhat interesting and engaging the way it worked in that game.  And if you didn't use spoiler sites (which I rarely resorted to) there could be a feeling of discovery and mystery associated with something as simple as talking to a NPC who might or might not have a quest.

I remember a few different occassions when I spent a hour or more just trying to unlock a quest from a NPC I thought might have a quest.  You know, trying out different key words and phrases.  You'd get the NPC to say something new and get all excited and then hit a dead end and start over.  Heh, I'm a guy who never particularly liked quests and even I sometimes got caught up in that sort of thing.

I'm not going to say it was a perfect system but compared to the stuff now...yeah, it was better.  The only way they could make things any more stupid in new games is if the NPC actually took you by the hand and led you where you needed to go, killed whatever needed to be killed for you, and then took your hand and led you back.  Or hell, maybe the future of quests in games is that after you talk to the NPC he (the NPC) will go do the quest while you sit and wait for him to return.  Somehow I wouldn't be suprised, but as horrible as quest grinding is in these games it might actually be an improvement.

And that brings up another difference.  In older games quests were more of an extra.  A side thing for people to do.  In new games questing is the primary method of advancement so instead of a few good quests there are a bazillion little chores.

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by buegur

The only thing i think that WoW did that the other MMO games didn't do at the time was the faster pace of leveling.  It also had a world made from a cartoonie art form and the questing system was better implimented than the others.  Although others like EQ had quests they didn't pay off as well as the ones in Wow. 

Not sure how you can compare WoWs quests with EQs.  WoW you just walk up to a ? - right click - blindly accept - follow the marker - right click the ! - click complete.  In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular.  Bottom line is you had better have read the quest thoroughly.  And if you go online and look up the quest, then you're only cheating yourself the experience.

I would rather do 5 quests in EQ than 500 quests in WoW.

And I would rather not do any quests at all.  In any MMO, I've never read any quests and never cared what the npc is blabbering about.  I would rather not do any quests at all.  I think WoW is the best MMO out at the moment, but I never thought its the best because of all the quests.  For players like myself, WoW quests would be better than EQ quests.  Just a different perspective for you.

I personally think it makes game developers try harder. Saying that, sometimes they try to hard and end up going kaput.

Originally posted by GlowingMoon

lol you guys do realize that the TC meant that WoW  is such a piece of garbage and because of It games have gotten so bad that there's nowhere to go except up. That things have gotten so bad that they can't possibly get any worse, so there's only room to improve.

I fully realized that and chose to ignore it and instead to focus on a discussion in this thread that actually has merit.

My position on this stems from the fact that I detest the old 'camp spawn and grind xp' method that pre-WoW MMOs liked to use.  The WoW quest-based systems is miles better than that.  Personally I would prefer to go to a purely achievement-based progression system.

When it comes to MMOs I have discovered that I have limits when it comes to mechanics.  I will enjoy a game mechanic or feature until I hit a certain point and then I start to detest it.  I like grinding and farming for a while until they are overused a tad too much and then I start hating them with a passion.  Similarly an obscure quest can be a lot of fun until the mechanics governing it get just a bit too stupid.  There is a threshold beyond which I simply feel that my intelligence is being insulted. 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

No, that was questing in traditional single and multiplayer games back in the 90s and early 2000s'.  NPC's would provide clues, but players would have to interact with NPC's and try to say the correct keywords to extract the information need to complete the quest. 

It was a different design that did not appeal to the mass market, hence it was changed to what we have today, mindless quests that no one bothers to even read, much less interact with an NPC.

Its a shame the adventure game genre died, so many people don't know how to play games like them anymore.

 

 

That is why WOW quests are better. I would much rather go kill stuff than trying to play "guess-that-word" in a database somewhere. There is a REASON why that kind of adventure gaming died.

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

     Maybe he DOESN'T want you to do something. Maybe you want him to do something, and you're talking him in to it. Or maybe he's ambivalent about anybody doing anything, and you just squeeze a tip out of him through innocent conversation. Maybe he's just that kind of wizardy guy who LIKES to play 20 questions, to test and see if you're worthy of the quest.

     But no, you're right.  It was such a major step of evolution in gameplay when the text became superfluous.

That is boring. People want to hack-n-slash & fight bosses, NOT guessing words in a database.