I read a lot about peoples views on pvp in MMOs and have began to wonder what it is that people actually prefer about the player vs player experience offered by an MMo instead of those offered by your average FPS or "deathmatch" style of game?

After all, isnt the main goal the same? capture the flag, territories, highest killcount.

Is your specced for magic bolt anymore satisfying than a well placed headshot?

I used to feel that the group play in an MMO seemed more "real" , for example defending a zone in Arathi Basin more than taking out the enemy in a Call of Duty game, although CoD was in fact the more true to life game? Is it just player attitudes, or is there more to it than that?

I build up my character and can make it my own and I love making my character better and more unique through PVP. Which is why I don't like PVP in 99% of MMOs.

That said, I love FPSs and would rather play them than the pathetic PVP system that's been handed out for the past few years that are equivalent to WoW's minigame PVP. It's virtually skill-less button clicking for no purpose.

Tactics play a role in FPSs, where they don't really play a role in MMO PVP. Same thing as RTS basically, He who Zergs First, Wins... Arathi Basin ESPECIALLY. If you can zerg the Stables or the Farm (dependent on your side) in the first 2 mintues, you win. No tactics. Don't take people's stupidity of a game as meaning there are tactics involved. Half the people who play WoW are Half Retarded. Which is why every time they release a new dungeon it gets dumbed down in the first week. (Notice I said HALF... it's probably more than that. But still, not a generalization of the WoW community as a whole.)

Fallen Earth is probably the first MMO that I've seen that allows for the use of real tactics.

For me it's the combat.  I like FPS's but I also like RPG combat.  Unique classes make for great team work, having to synergize your skills/spells with your team, with the right timing, countering, and coordination.  Another is that the mmos I play aren't in the first person mode.  FPS's give me motion sickness sometimes.

-a feeling of character progression over time (something fps are adopting from mmos/rpgs)

-goals that have meaning... like eve, when you band together, claim territory and fight for it

-community you can build up

that said, a good fps is better than bad mmo pvp for me. but when you can get good pvp in an mmo, its great. i loved planetside in the past, though it became repetive, there's nothing like hotdropping with 50 people to take a base. i hope planetside 2 is closer to ever where you can control territory as a clan/guild.and im looking forward to apb, dust 514 etc...

i disagree that there are no tactics in mmos, we used them in DAOC all the time.. these days ya, less and less of that is seen

i honestly like both equally, pvp mmos and fps

though i get bored with the boxed map of a fps a lot quicker then i do with an mmo (i really dont care for instanced fights)

not gonna go into detail bout it though, others have said pretty much how everyone feels and whatnot, mine is no diff

The added feel of persistance, community, and changing goals. This is also why I like games like Chromehounds for the xbox360, because even though it's not a MMO. it has a "Conquest mode" Which puts people in a persistant war where you can come back a week later, and you will still be  looking at the same struggle, albeit the changes from who is doing better.

However, FPS/Non MMORPG's that give a sense of persistance are far and few between, but the ones that are out there I love almost as much as MMORPG's. The only thing that MMO's really have above them is the fact that in a MMO, you are constantly in the virtual world, wheres in the FPS style persistance, it offen shows the persistance in a sense of a continent map with flags and your factions progress.

Don't get me wrong, I love your average FPS, but after a while, you start to realize its not enough. Your standard FPS is, "Enter Lobby, Play match, re-enter lobby or switch maps, new battle. Then when you leave, its gone.You cant come back to the same strugge or actually influence something on the larger scale. There are many more MMO's that offer a sense of persistance than FPS. So that is why MMO's are #1

Originally posted by Vinterkrig

i disagree that there are no tactics in mmos, we used them in DAOC all the time.. these days ya, less and less of that is seen

i honestly like both equally, pvp mmos and fps

though i get bored with the boxed map of a fps a lot quicker then i do with an mmo (i really dont care for instanced fights)

 

not gonna go into detail bout it though, others have said pretty much how everyone feels and whatnot, mine is no diff

The person who spouts that isn't any tactics in MMO's, is clearly playing the wrong MMO. That or he doesn't full comprehend what it required to consider something a tactic. A tactic can be as simple as having a more convenient method of communicating through guilds so it is easy to meet up for battle. Which happens all the time in MMOs liek DAOC. 
 

The only problem witch tactics in MMO's is that unless you have a core network of people willing to cooperate, it can be difficult. 99% of the time in MMO's you have a bunch of people who are their own 1 man army. Or people who wont listen to a thing you say. Hence the mindless zergs. That's also why having a good guild system in place is essential to have a good ingame leadership structure so you can actually get set goals completed.

I cant think of a good reason other than the fact that you play a character with specific powers.

The only MMO that came close to that same feeling you get from blowing someone's head off in FPS, is Shadowbane.  After leaving Shadowbane for WoW, I quit WoW because I hated PvP.  After first expansion came out for WoW and I thought I'd give WoW another shot, I made a promise to myself I'd play PvE and not even bother with PvP.  I've been playing WoW with little breaks in between and I like it a lot more.  Ever since then, I keep my PvP and PvE in separate genre.  Read my Sig tho :D

I prefer fps pvp because it isn't just as much class trumping another class, and gear or levels that predict who will win as much. It is more about player skill and ability to aim that does helps show who will win. Everyone is on a more even playing field. About the only game where I would say the pvp is really good would be eve-online. The ability to fight other aliances and corps, plus the ability to control space makes it more epic.

Originally posted by denshing

Originally posted by Vinterkrig

i disagree that there are no tactics in mmos, we used them in DAOC all the time.. these days ya, less and less of that is seen

i honestly like both equally, pvp mmos and fps

though i get bored with the boxed map of a fps a lot quicker then i do with an mmo (i really dont care for instanced fights)

 

not gonna go into detail bout it though, others have said pretty much how everyone feels and whatnot, mine is no diff

The person who spouts that isn't any tactics in MMO's, is clearly playing the wrong MMO. That or he doesn't full comprehend what it required to consider something a tactic. A tactic can be as simple as having a more convenient method of communicating through guilds so it is easy to meet up for battle. Which happens all the time in MMOs liek DAOC. 
 

The only problem witch tactics in MMO's is that unless you have a core network of people willing to cooperate, it can be difficult. 99% of the time in MMO's you have a bunch of people who are their own 1 man army. Or people who wont listen to a thing you say. Hence the mindless zergs. That's also why having a good guild system in place is essential to have a good ingame leadership structure so you can actually get set goals completed.

Oh for sure bro. He's talking about WOW, so there ya go... it explains it all lol

And I totally agree with you on the 2nd part of your statement, when I ran 8 man gank squads in DAOC, we wouldn't even bother playing if someone from our guild couldn't be on that night. PUGS suck, I hate them!  If we needed a new member, we'd try em out and if they sucked, boot them, no second thoughts.

.. unfortunetly no games are captivating to me anymore in the aspects of pvp without tremendous amounts of time being spent getting to a piss poor end game, and i don't have the time to play every night or run a solid guild, so i'm close to done with mmos

Originally posted by Conavar

I read a lot about peoples views on pvp in MMOs and have began to wonder what it is that people actually prefer about the player vs player experience offered by an MMo instead of those offered by your average FPS or "deathmatch" style of game?

After all, isnt the main goal the same? capture the flag, territories, highest killcount.

Is your specced for magic bolt anymore satisfying than a well placed headshot?

I used to feel that the group play in an MMO seemed more "real" , for example defending a zone in Arathi Basin more than taking out the enemy in a Call of Duty game, although CoD was in fact the more true to life game? Is it just player attitudes, or is there more to it than that?

Yes you need to realize with the massive amount of cheat sites ,players do not want fair or a challenge,they want to win no matter what.

In a game like COD there is also hacks but the actual game itself lends to a fair fight.In an MMORPG players can get better gear or just time=reward and have an instant better player to easily beat the other guy.In a MMORPG you are pretty much looking at nothing being equal one guy will always have better stats or better gear or a higher level,FPS games it is more about latency and bandwidth of connections and player skills.

So to simply it MMORPG=time/reward and gear,and macros .

FPS=skill/thinking and latency and .ini tweaks.

Originally posted by denshing

Originally posted by Vinterkrig

i disagree that there are no tactics in mmos, we used them in DAOC all the time.. these days ya, less and less of that is seen

i honestly like both equally, pvp mmos and fps

though i get bored with the boxed map of a fps a lot quicker then i do with an mmo (i really dont care for instanced fights)

 

not gonna go into detail bout it though, others have said pretty much how everyone feels and whatnot, mine is no diff

The person who spouts that isn't any tactics in MMO's, is clearly playing the wrong MMO. That or he doesn't full comprehend what it required to consider something a tactic. A tactic can be as simple as having a more convenient method of communicating through guilds so it is easy to meet up for battle. Which happens all the time in MMOs liek DAOC. 
 

The only problem witch tactics in MMO's is that unless you have a core network of people willing to cooperate, it can be difficult. 99% of the time in MMO's you have a bunch of people who are their own 1 man army. Or people who wont listen to a thing you say. Hence the mindless zergs. That's also why having a good guild system in place is essential to have a good ingame leadership structure so you can actually get set goals completed.

Actually, I was talking about Battle Tactics. Communication is not tactics, but you can have tactical communication... still doesn't count for tactics alone.

DAoC is one of the few games I haven't played, so I can't comment about that one. I wasn't just talking about WoW though, I've played every major and most minor MMOs, as well as quite a few F2Ps.

You're right about the 1 Man Army thing, but the problem is that there is no point in WoW's and everyone is just thrown into a bout together, from multiple servers... yes I know you can have premades blah blah blah not what I'm talking about, World PVP is dead. WoW's PVP is imho the epitome of horrible PVP in an MMO and is nothing more than a mindless minigame. There are games out there that force you to use tactics, be it personal or group tactics. EVE and Fallen Earth are the 2 that come to mind because they are the 2 I play atm. There are a few others, but I can't think of what they are. Both of those games require some sort of battle tactics to win, something other than "THERE HE IS!" 1111 2 3 9 1111 2 3 9 "OH NO!  GOTTA JUMP AROUND!"  faceroll "kk now if I jump some more.... OH NO!" 1 5, and that's not just WoW it's pretty much every game out there. In EVE it's the way you build your ship and the strategy you use and how you use it, in Fallen Earth it's how you move. Sounds simple, but it's not.

Also:

ib4 someone misreads what I said for meaning no skill. Skill != Tactics either.

It's not more enjoyable for me.  I play MMORPGs for PVE, and FPSes for PVP.

I look forward to more Guild Wars-like games which try to focus on the interesting tactical combat that can emerge from MMORPG-style combat, but I'm past the point of expecting MMORPGs to provide compelling PVP in the near future (if ever.)  Once I stopped expecting MMORPGs to provide interesting PVP, I enjoyed them much more.

Originally posted by Conavar

I read a lot about peoples views on pvp in MMOs and have began to wonder what it is that people actually prefer about the player vs player experience offered by an MMo instead of those offered by your average FPS or "deathmatch" style of game?

After all, isnt the main goal the same? capture the flag, territories, highest killcount.

Is your specced for magic bolt anymore satisfying than a well placed headshot?

I used to feel that the group play in an MMO seemed more "real" , for example defending a zone in Arathi Basin more than taking out the enemy in a Call of Duty game, although CoD was in fact the more true to life game? Is it just player attitudes, or is there more to it than that?

I think you have trouble seeing the MMOer's point of view because your PvP combat experience was in WOW. I am not saying that WOW is bad or that their PvP combat is bad, but that the PvP there really doesn't serve much point other than gaining rank for bigger shoulderpads.

In some MMOs, the PvP combat allows for control of territory. Often this territory will yield a reward or offer access to a particular resource. Sometimes people will control an area just to control passage through that area. PVP in other games can be used as a manner of enforcing law. In EVE, a person, corporation or alliance can back their words with firepower, providing that extra card to play at negotiation tables and diplomatic meetings - two aspects of the social side of PvP that simply don't exist in games like WOW where the PvP isn't much different from a team-based FPS. Well, except for the imbalanced level disparity and gear dependent design . :) 

Originally posted by TheHatter

Fallen Earth is probably the first MMO that I've seen that allows for the use of real tactics.

Other than UO, Shadowbane and EVE Online to name three right off the bat.

Character building.Most FPS everybody is the same,MMO you get to be unique.Of course this changing and FPS are adding rpg elements and persisant worlds to their games

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by TheHatter

Fallen Earth is probably the first MMO that I've seen that allows for the use of real tactics.

 

Other than UO, Shadowbane and EVE Online to name three right off the bat.

Sorry, "real" meant "infantry". :)

Habit.

Originally posted by Conavar

I read a lot about peoples views on pvp in MMOs and have began to wonder what it is that people actually prefer about the player vs player experience offered by an MMo instead of those offered by your average FPS or "deathmatch" style of game?

After all, isnt the main goal the same? capture the flag, territories, highest killcount.

Is your specced for magic bolt anymore satisfying than a well placed headshot?

I used to feel that the group play in an MMO seemed more "real" , for example defending a zone in Arathi Basin more than taking out the enemy in a Call of Duty game, although CoD was in fact the more true to life game? Is it just player attitudes, or is there more to it than that?

Now that i've actually drank some coffee I could actually answer the Op.

My favorite aspect of MMO pvp is the open world, massive battles over territory or keeps.

We don't really have that in Single player shooters (not on that scale anyway).

I do prefer Ctf and Deathmatch pvp in my Fps games though.

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Originally posted by dstar.
For me it's the combat.  I like FPS's but I also like RPG combat.  Unique classes make for great team work, having to synergize your skills/spells with your team, with the right timing, countering, and coordination.  Another is that the mmos I play aren't in the first person mode.  FPS's give me motion sickness sometimes.

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If it weren't for the motion sickness thing, I'd be recommending Team Fortress 2.

 Spellborn requires tactics and skill, it's skill based game, suggest you to try it out. Tho it's not for everyone.

Obviously risk vs reward, if i kill someone i want the glory of taking his stuff. Sadly this is rare thesedays as all we have is boring themeparks. That said, crafting is my main task in a mmo, so i can play sandbox games without PvP just fine.

Originally posted by ChrisMattern

 

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Originally posted by dstar.
For me it's the combat.  I like FPS's but I also like RPG combat.  Unique classes make for great team work, having to synergize your skills/spells with your team, with the right timing, countering, and coordination.  Another is that the mmos I play aren't in the first person mode.  FPS's give me motion sickness sometimes.

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If it weren't for the motion sickness thing, I'd be recommending Team Fortress 2.

Well I don't get motion sickness in all of them.  Just a select few.  I don't really care for TF2 anyways it's not my style of FPS.  As I said I like the depth of rpg combat when it comes to using your skills/spell at the right times, and 3rd person over first person.   I'm not looking for a new game or suggestions either just replying to the OP.

The biggest difference between MMORPG PvP and the PvP of a normal FPS like TF2 is, that in MMORPGs the time invested counts. Even if you are a very bad player you can get superior equipment if you invest enough time, and then once you have that equipment, you can kill other people with worse equipment. 

Since in MMORPGs everythin as in normal FPS counts, but in addition also the amount of time you invest, it allows worse players to get a feeling of superiority. The talk about "I like to have my own spec" and whatnot is pretty much nonsense, since in most games there is one single good spec that is the best for PvP, and unless you want to have it more difficult than necessary you'll spec that way if you are into PvP.

I was actually just using the wow example as it would be the most widely known. I have tried the pvp in other MMORPG's, although my time pvping in EVE lasted about as long as it took me to type this :)

Warhammers open group system made the process a lot easier to drop in and out of the world pvp, but it did just turn into a case of numbers = win, which seems to be the norm in these cases.

I've enjoyed reading peoples replies, and reasons for liking a particular style of gameplay, thanks :)