Originally posted by nateslo

I'm gonna make this really direct and to the point. I very unhappy with the current selection of sandbox style mmos out there right now. I've been gaming for a long time (15+ years) and there is really nothing out there that excites me. I want a really good sandbox fantasy mmo. There have been a few glimmers of hope, with Darkfall and Mortal Online, but both seem to be fizzling out. I dont think Im alone in feeling this way. My question is...

Why arent any major companies making Sandbox mmos?

Both Darkfall and MO are made by very small companies, just not capable of delivering the gaming experience and qualitly I want in a game. 

I know some will say that the sandbox hardcore player base is just not big enough to make a game profitable, but I have to disagree. Just a quick look at forums across the web the show that many many others are looking for a quality sandbox mmo. I think if a major company would put out a polished high quality sandbox mmo, unlike this sloppy 10 year old looking stuff we are getting recently, they would be incredibly succesful, and would blow the genre way open for others to follow. 

 

Your "disagreement" is completely meaningless. People on forums are not representative. Just look at how many members are there on this forum, and what is the percentage of them in say 11M wow players.

Companies do market research. In fact, nick yee's site has some survey and stuff about what people want on MMOs, and sandbox is NOT one of them.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Companies do market research. In fact, nick yee's site has some survey and stuff about what people want on MMOs, and sandbox is NOT one of them.

People don't know what they want.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Companies do market research. In fact, nick yee's site has some survey and stuff about what people want on MMOs, and sandbox is NOT one of them.

People don't know what they want.

Spoken as someone who firmly believes in democracy...

Perhaps companies would be more willing to listen to sandbox advocates if they were actually supporting what few companies try to please them. Posting wish lists riddled with unbalanced hard to manage features doesnt seem like it will help your cause one bit...

There are plenty of games out there that are a sandbox to varying degrees.  I think mmorpg devs are scratching their heads confused as hell.  They listen to the hardcore gamers rants against "themepark" games and implement as much as they can.  Then guess what happens?  No one plays their game.  Hardcore players say they want sandbox games and treat casual gamers with disdain complaining that they are the ones ruining mmorpg s.  It's not really about a sandbox game or a themepark game...it's about being able to see themselves as special or different from all the "masses".  Hardcore gamers like to label people and put themselves at the top of that list.  Everyone else is a "carebear" but they are "hardcore".  They want permadeath, full loot, world wide pvp with no safe zones, no instanced areas, no story to get in the way of their pvp, no mobs to have to grind, no questing, etc.  Did I miss anything?  Now I know this doesn't apply to all gamers who consider themselves hardcore.  Some like a story or lore to follow ingame.  I've just seen too many threads with posts with comments like "who reads the quest info anyway?" or "a storyline means it's not sandbox."

I lost my point in that tangent, sorry.  My point is I think it's the sandbox loving hardcore players that don't know what they want.  A dev can make a sandbox game but then the hardcore gamer is full of excuses why the game is just not for them.  They will never be happy and continue to attack the community because that's what it's really about for them, seperating themselves from the "carebears".

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Companies do market research. In fact, nick yee's site has some survey and stuff about what people want on MMOs, and sandbox is NOT one of them.

People don't know what they want.

Why are you so certain that people want people "sandbox".The 11 million subs of WoW should be a big hint, but if that is not enough the huge amounts people playing Linage 2,Aion,Lotor,CoX,War,Aoc should bring the point home. Tons of F2P mmo popping up and not one them being a sandbox should be a hint.People know what they want.

Originally posted by luckturtz

 

Why are you so certian that people want people "sandbox".The 11 million subs of WoW should be a  big hint, but if that is not enough huges amounts people  Linage 2,Aion,Lotor,CoX,War,Aoc should bring the point home. Tons of F2P mmo popping up and not one them being a sandbox should be a hint.People know what they want.

I'm not. I myself don't want a sandbox. But my point is universal more than anything. People don't know what they want. it's the developers duty to show them. If you ask a player "what do you want from a new MMO?" their answers don't reflect the reality. Only when developers make the game and the players play it they'll realize that it's what they really wanted from a game, not what they thought they wanted.

It could be sandbox, or some sandboxy elements. Who knows before somebody's tried?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by metalhead980

LOL i can't really disagree with that. I've been screaming for variety in the genre for years.

Lets see we have UO,EQ then AO and DAoC basically every MMO out today is a copy off of those four games.

I think the only MMos that added some variety in the genre since those four were Eve and Planetside.

Since we've had nothing but clones. Almost pisses me off that I've stuck to the genre this long.

The sad thing is, it almost looks like we're only getting copies of DAoC (or AC) nowadays.. even going back to UO/EQ/AO style would be quite refreshing right now, which is funny in a way.

 

Where's the copy of DAoC? I haven't seen one.

Think hard of the features of DAoC and honeslty tell me you havent seen a RvR mechanic or tower siege in any game? What about DAoC Lite (WAR)? This is why I say those four games (EQ,UO,AO,DAoC) bascially started every mechanic we have in MMOs today.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Think hard of the features of DAoC and honeslty tell me you havent seen a RvR mechanic or tower siege in any game? What about DAoC Lite (WAR)? This is why I say those four games (EQ,UO,AO,DAoC) bascially started every mechanic we have in MMOs today.

 

PQs? Leveling from PvP?

This is what cracks me up about the majority....

WHAT
All these people are screaming for something "New". Something "Innovated". But all of you want it to be "Theme Park" and, therefore, the same. This makes me laugh. Theme Parks are Theme Parks, guys. There are rides...you ride them. And that's it! That's IT! All are going to be the same, no matter what game it is. Because that's what it IS! Sure, you can add in little differences here and there (and claim to stand out above the rest). But bottom line: you go from Point A ----> Point B. The End (or repeat). So its all a contradiction. You want it to be the same....but different. (I got news for you, there's no such thing).

WHEN
And this is the thing I find most hilarious. All these people say that Theme Parks is what everyone wants....and yet, no one is happy with anything that comes out. They're not even happy with WoW. And yet when something new comes out, they say "Its not like WoW...it sucks" - or - "Its a WoW Clone...it sucks". WTF?! Do you not see this? I find that extremely funny. The majority play Theme Parks because the majority came into the MMO genre when Theme Parks were popular. (All they know is Theme Parks because that is all they have been Spoon Fed).

WHO
So....the mainstream wants Theme Park MMOs? Right? Because that's what everyone plays? Right? But no one is happy with any of them? Right? I find this odd. Don't you find this odd? If not, well, the only thing I can suggest is: Keep looking for the "WoW Killer". It's coming! I swear! Wait....wasn't it AoC? Nope...it was WAR. Wrong...it was AION. Sorry...I meant SWTOR. Guess again...<insert next hyped mmo>. (Repeat eternally).

WHERE
The truth is, you are now growing and looking for elements that do not exist in Theme Parks and never will. But Theme Parks are all that you know. So you continue to look. But the truth is, you cannot put anything "New" into Theme Parks. If you do, it ceases to be a Theme Park. It also ceases to be something you do not want. So, infact, you set yourself up for failed expectations. The Holy Grail MMO does not exist and cannot exist because it will be "like WoW" or "not like WoW" in which case, either scenerio will ultimately lead to the opinion that it "Failed". And that is the reason you will not find it. (But you can keep waiting if you like).

WHY
Go back to the top and start at WHAT again.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw

I think the problem is not necessarily the fact that Themeparks sell better, it's that directed content is easier for marketing people to understand, therefore gets more focused marketing pushes. Sandbox content scares the hell out of marketing people/execs/shareholders because the control is not in their hands, but in the hands of the players. That makes it a roll of the dice. Therefore it's harder to justify to the beancounters that your sandbox mmo will sell well, when Themeparks can easily be broken down into 'fun features'.

 

Are you saying that you think game design direction is dictated by marketing, or are you saying that these games do have a lot of sandbox like features but marketing won't sell those features and, as such, the consumer - who is obviously just as stupid as marketing - never finds these locked away features?

 

I definitely think marketing now dictates todays design directions. This wasn't the case back a few years ago when great sandbox games such as SWG and EVE were conceived, and interestingly enough, neither of those games has been given proper marketing attention (and those are the only two sandboxes I can think of that got ANY noteworthy marketing budget) outside of word of mouth.

Originally posted by Illyssia

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Illyssia

Originally posted by colddog

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by colddog

 

When CCP came out with EVE, it was sort of their mission to create a sandbox-like space MMO. But they were not a "big" company. And it fills a niche of about 300k people.

 

Most MMOs would be successful with that size niche.

 

Well, they weren't always at 300k. They have slowly risen over time. In the beginning (MArch 2003), the game had a smaller playerbase and there were a lot of below average reviews. It honestly didn't look like it was going to make it for a while. This particular site didn't even review it till mid-late 2004.

 

They took a business risk with EVE, but CCP had a mission for this game from the beginning. And it ended up well after all. But in my opinion, not wanting to take that kind of risk if you are an MMO developer makes sense. After all, development companies are for profit.

 

It is, though, definitely a niche game. A player base of subs in the millions is mainstream.

So basically on my side of the world only WoW is "mainstream"?

I think people need to get away from the WoW sub number equals success or non-niche.

Wow is a freak of nature, Look at all the other mmos in NA/Euro. Whats the average sub number? 100k? 150k?

As time goes on I think we need to start looking at that massive amount of MMOs falling into the 100-500k range as "mainstream" While niche would be sub 100k numbers.

It's unfair to judge an entire genre on one game that released over five years ago.

 

At the moment to argue that any mmorpg other than WoW is mainstream would seem to me to be unreasonable. I think the market for mmorpg in Western countries is large enough to support a few mainstream games, I think as many as three. It may seem unfair to you, but less than a million subs would seem to indicate to me a niche game, that doesn't mean the game isn't good, but, for whatever reasons, it can't quite catch the imagination of a large proportion of the game playing people of the West.

It has absolutely nothing to do with imagination and you're fooling yourself if you think different. The average WoW player has absolutely no idea what lore is really going on in the world unless it's done through a voice over. WoW is so insanely successful for a myriad of reasons, none of which are simple.

The problem with WoW is that it is so wildly successful. It's a problem because anything they do gets businessmen who do NOT understand the industry to try to simply copy it and then they wonder what happened when they fail. It's a problem because WoW contains a lot of really stale practices that need to be innovated, but so long as there is this gold standard that says it's ok every dev studio out there will just keep doing it.

It's a problem because it allows people to define things as sandbox OR themepark and blinds them to any sort of compromise.

This industry is going to start dying soon unless the companies with the resources right now start to research how to do things differently. Combat NEEDS to be done in new ways. For fantasy mmo's the way of doing combat has not changed at ALL in over a decade...since 1997 when this all basically started. Any time any game has tried to do things differently it has been mishandled or underfunded to the point that everything comes out wrong.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

This industry is going to start dying soon unless the companies with the resources right now start to research how to do things differently.

I love reading this stuff the industry is going to die stuff.MMO are doing so bad that we have an mmo with 11 million subs and several mmos over 200,000 sub.The mmo industry is doing so bad that the shooter games are copying the mmo format.MMO are no danger.

Also If MMO need combat in mmo need to do something new what are Aoc,Tabla rasa,Spellborn,Earthrise,Mortal Online,Tera,Darkfall,The secret world,Blade and Soul,C 9,Global Agenda,Huxley doing?

This isnt a UO has beens vs WOW fanboys issue. While sandbox has become a blanket term for pretty much everything involving players choice (in which sense its become useless as a reference) its also become associated with game elements that are either rejected by a large majority of players or near impossible to properly implement (at least with todays bugets/technology). We really got to let go of what could have been and start thinking on workable cost effective solutions that will not alienate players. Game companies spend large amounts of their budgets on receiving feedback and tracking trends amongst players. Building something of a reasoned consensus amongst at least a small part of the player base would go a longer way in helping devs give us the products we want.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by metalhead980

Think hard of the features of DAoC and honeslty tell me you havent seen a RvR mechanic or tower siege in any game? What about DAoC Lite (WAR)? This is why I say those four games (EQ,UO,AO,DAoC) bascially started every mechanic we have in MMOs today.

 

PQs? Leveling from PvP?

Yes and Yes. UO's champ spawns are public quests. Also, most UOer's levelled their PvP skills by sparring with each other or in PvP itself.

In part because everyone is stuck on a sandbox game has to have ffa pvp full loot or it isn't a sandbox.  Until the sandbox niche can get out from under this gankers paradise shadow no big developer will waste the time and money.

I don't use the sandbox term.  People try to cram way too many components into that one word. Also, everyone has a slightly different set of components that they try to lump together under that definition.

I like open world design, as opposed to linear, or "room" based world design.

I prefer skill-based character design, as opposed to class-based characters.

I like the IDEA of PVP gameplay, but generally end up preferring PVE gameplay in MMOs.  I think PVP would work better if there were an MMO that abandoned level-based progression.

To try to summarize an MMO with one word is silly.  There are too many variables to do so.  Use a series of words that each describe a specific area of the gameplay.

Could it be that sandbox MMORPG sometime not provide consistent fun aspect when most of the contents are generate by the game community itself? One day you have so much fun in battle zone, and you will expect the same happen the next day, but it just not happen. While general gamer would prefer the same gameplay experience everytime they login where they know how to find that fun the moment they play. I prefer sandbox type game myself, but I start to see why some group of player just prefer 'game' than 'role-playing world'.

Just like you play minesweeper on computer, and come the next day it's gone. And you want to play minesweeper badly.

sandbox + devs = sandy vaginas 

You just need to play FE.

Originally posted by Papamac

Originally posted by nateslo

I'm gonna make this really direct and to the point. I very unhappy with the current selection of sandbox style mmos out there right now. I've been gaming for a long time (15+ years) and there is really nothing out there that excites me. I want a really good sandbox fantasy mmo. There have been a few glimmers of hope, with Darkfall and Mortal Online, but both seem to be fizzling out. I dont think Im alone in feeling this way. My question is...

Why arent any major companies making Sandbox mmos?

Both Darkfall and MO are made by very small companies, just not capable of delivering the gaming experience and qualitly I want in a game. 

I know some will say that the sandbox hardcore player base is just not big enough to make a game profitable, but I have to disagree. Just a quick look at forums across the web the show that many many others are looking for a quality sandbox mmo. I think if a major company would put out a polished high quality sandbox mmo, unlike this sloppy 10 year old looking stuff we are getting recently, they would be incredibly succesful, and would blow the genre way open for others to follow. 

 

 

There are no real "sandbox" games out there because that's not what the masses want.

A sandbox is a toy, not a game.  It's something to play with, manipulate as you please, and then scrap it all and start over if you're not happy with it.

Think of the simplest toy available, one that everyone around the world is familiar with... a ball.  A ball is a toy.  By itself, you can bounce it off the ground and catch it.  You can throw it against a wall and catch it.  You can throw it to another person and have them catch it, and then throw it back to you so you can... catch it.  Hundreds of millions of children all around the world play with a ball every day.

Adults don't.

Adults crave structure and purpose.  They take that ball and they design rules for playing and then they create a game.  Basketball is a game.  Baseball is a game.  Football is a game.  All of these games use a toy, and then apply rules, structure, and conditions for winning.  This is what adults want.  If that weren't so, then we'd all be playing catch with one another in our spare time, rather than watching (or playing) the games I mentioned.

The same thing goes for MMOs.  EVE Online is the closest thing we have right now to a succesful "sandbox" MMO.  EVE Online has rules and structure.  The folks at CCP recognized long ago that they wouldn't be able to survive on the revenue from the sandbox crowd alone.  They added content that gave players an opportunity to play their game on a more casual basis.  They did this because they recognized that this is what most people want.

You may not agree, but that's not a requirement.  The facts speak for themselves.

This is probably one of the best responses here on MMORPG.com I have seen in a long time, and sadly I do agree, I dont think we can have "sandboxes" in the sense that some people mention just a toy to play with but I think we can apply the EVE model to what we know as sandboxes, and that is to create a structure that can be extended with sandbox elements, I do like EVE and I think they did the right thing , what I want tho is a fantasy "EVE" game, and that just doesnt exist atm not unless you can accept a half broken product which I am not prepared to.

But like someone said hopefully once the "themepark" market gets saturated we will see some real investment in maybe other areas.

Back in 1998 or 1999 I played Half Life and my little cousin was watching. I had the crowbar in my hand and tried to get into a air vent at the ceiling. So after a while of jumping, ducking, climbing I still hadn't managed to get into that air vent. Thats when my little cousin asked with the innocent and unknowing voice only a naive little child can have:

"Why don't you use the crowbar and pull yourself up into the vent?"

Silence followed, then laughter.

But he was actually right. Why can't I use the damn crowbar to pull myself up? Why can a mage not learn to wield a twohanded sword or a Warrior to cast a spell? Why can't you use that dynamite you got to complete this mission to blow up the air transport thingies in WoW instead? Why can't you attack this other guy in a city zone but in a pvp zone you can? Why does only every third boar you kill drop a boar tail you need for a quest? Why can I not give this item I don't need anymore to another person?

I think alot of people would actually like the concept of a sandbox game, they are just afraid to try it because not only does it give them benefits, more power and control over their gaming expirience. The consequences of their actions and/or mistakes are also much more severe.

Lastly, as an EVE Player, I fear the bad influence an increased playerbase might have on my favourite game. If the pressure is big enough, CCP might grow soft and alienate the game over time to cater to the new customers.

Bigger subscription numbers could be a blessing or a bane.