Most griefers are bullies, people with deep psychological problems that they act out in games. They are the type that enjoys pulling wings from butterflies and moths or using magnifying glass to fry ants. They just want to see and cause suffering as that is what makes their jollies. They should be spanked by their mommies. They don't necessarily live in their parent's basement but most of them do not have the maturity or responsible enough to survive alone.

Gankers are those looking for challenge or roleplay or whatever their reason. They have a lot of self bestowed reasons for their crusade to inflict death and carnage to their victims. Gankers are functional people but they really believed that they can do it just because the game allows them to. They would cheat and use exploits at a drop of a hat if they can get away with it. Their reason and justification ? Just because they can and the game rules allows them to.

Originally posted by Rajen

Ganking and griefing are the same, they show a persons true colors. I guess that is why the community on PvP servers are generally a lot more rotten than communities on PvE centric games... it caters to rotten spirited people.

 

I guess if you enjoy ruining another persons playing experience you will defend it. I leveled 3 characters to 80 on a PvP server and not once did I ever encounter someone within 10 levels of me engage me in world PvP. So I asked myself, what is the point? I don't like ruining someone elses experience and engaging in jack-assery. Well when my irl friend quit the game I rerolled to a PvE server, better community, better leveling experience, I wasn't bothered while I went about my business leveling and it was the best experience I ever received from WoW.

This is a terribly biased opinion.

You (the poster) have to understand that alot of people play these games for the PvP interaction, the faction vs faction, and the real oponent combat. Not all PvPers are jerks, and not all PvE'ers are nice happy friendly people.

You are of course going to find the more ambitious and out spoken types on the PvP servers, that's just a given, but don't persecute them and talk about some sort of "mentality" they all have as if it's some type of defect in their social development.

It's just a different group's perception of what they want to experience in an MMO.

Ganking is complete BS, if you gank for fun, then there is definitely something wrong with the way you think the game should be played. I would never roll on a PvP server, they are just BS. But on PvE servers, I think they should take it one step further and stop people from being able to kill quest givers/ Flight masters/ Auctioneers/Bankers, etc. I signed up for a PvE server because I want to enjoy a completely unhindered PvE experience.

Best I can say about the article is that sugar coats all that is poorly made in WoW PvP.

Play on PvE server? So what happens when half dozen or so top geared chars decide to lock down a starter zone by killing NPC guards and quest givers? There are also bottlenecks that can be easily blocked by a few people preventing other players to enjoy the game under the guise of PvP. Teldrassil for example.

Skin the kills? Wonderful idea however what if there are no kills to be made? Oh, like few capped chars aoeing down everything in sight, questgivers included in low and mid level zones. If the kill isn't looted, it cannot be skinned, best of all unlooted kill despawns slowly. Oodles of fun in Strangethorn Vale on a PvE server.

And those cute little exploits. You know, where a character ends up on top of a building (smitty in Goldshire anyone) and proceeds to kill NPCs in a available radius while being untouchable. Just pull a bit back everybody below will lose line of sight, patch up and merrily continue.

WoW PvP in general is comical. Better gear trumps lower gear - no exceptions, higher level trumps lower level - no exceptions, bigger numbers trump smaller numbers - no exceptions. Skill? Strategy? Even battles? Nope, nope, and nope. Ganking and griefing is pretty much how WoW functions, and not just on PvP server.

Originally posted by Slambone

I cut my teeth on a PvP server. I rarely ganked anyone. I found it more enjoyable to shadow lowbies just to freak them out. If I ran across an ally within a few levels of mine, I would always attack. I thought that was the real point of a PvP server.

I have a question?

Are PvP servers enjoyable for people that don't like to gank (don't kill anyone clearly inferior?)

I'm no ganker (and certainly no griefer), and I would never play on anything but a pvp server.  Sure, there's always some nub (spin it any way you want, you're a nub if you're a ganker) griefer/ganker out there, but the real fights with people around your level make up for nearly any amount of griefing you have to deal with.  Well, at least that's my take on it.

I'm with Zaxxon on this one.  I feel that gankers are just people who enjoy kicking ant hills.  You can justify it being about war, and teaching people, but fundamentally, you're just screwing with someone.

However, I love PvP of +/- 10.  I find that I get better world PvP on PvE servers tho.  I can run around Stranglethorn with my flag on, and I'll see people spot me, consider it, then run off and flag.  I know that they're coming back, and eventually they do. And it's hella fun.  
 

No level 80's are hanging around just in case I happen to flag, but equal levelish toons will very often rumble with me.  Which is awesome. 

Originally posted by Babylon9000

You (the poster) have to understand that alot of people play these games for the PvP interaction, the faction vs faction, and the real oponent combat.

What a load of crap. There is no "real oponent combat" in one-shotting someone 50 levels lower than you.

Well - It got summed up with "I also do it because it happened to me when I was leveling, and any revenge is enough to put my conscience at ease" - So your justification is that because it happened to you, you have the right to inflict it on others?

Sweet... Time for me to break out my kitchenware and go mug someone!!! (I'm allowed to do it, after all, given this justification!)

This is the explicit reason why I will never actively seek out a PvP server or game; due to idiots like this who think that irritating lower level characters is fun, and that they have the right to do it. (Then again; it fears me that, more-and-more, this is the mentality of people - It was done to me, so I can do it unto others...)
 

I loved bringing my level 80 Orc warrior over near Darkshire and strut around the graveyard.  I would scare the crap out of the lowbies in the area.  I would never kill them.  I would wave to them and move around. 

Couldn't stay long, for I was sure they were reporting me being in the area but it was fun making them sweat it.  LOL

Originally posted by Slambone

I cut my teeth on a PvP server. I rarely ganked anyone. I found it more enjoyable to shadow lowbies just to freak them out. If I ran across an ally within a few levels of mine, I would always attack. I thought that was the real point of a PvP server.

I have a question?

Are PvP servers enjoyable for people that don't like to gank (don't kill anyone clearly inferior?)

I dont like to gank anyone and wouldnt play on a non-PvP server.  I just think it is more challenging.  The risk of death is much higher and the sweet feeling you get when you come across someone your own level or maybe higher and kill them.

You might as well play a single player RPG if you dont play on a PvP server.

The problem is that Warcraft players don't have a shared understanding of what PvP in the game should be like. It's interesting to compare this to a game such as EVE in which all sorts of misschief and deviant behavior are simply taken for granted as being part of the game, because they can be dealt with within the game's parameters (somebody stole your ship? hire a merc). It's what players enjoy and what motivates people to develop their characters and outsmart their opponents. WoW just doesn't have that option, which is why there will always be conflicting playing styles in that game.

I have to admit, I have had some fun times ganking players in World of Warcraft... in fact, I'd have to say, some of my favorite times ever playing the game.

Why do I like it so much?  Like Sean wrote, it brings a lot of unpredictability to the game.  My friend and I would gank lower level players JUST so they would bring their higher level friends to counter us, and we'd have crazy skirmishes in the middle of the world, and we never knew just who would come around the corner next to try to take us on.  We'd have huge standoffs, and sometimes would have hilarious battles with the two of us versus 20+ lower level characters.

I also like the unpredictability of not knowing when someone might try to gank you.  Remember the thrill when you'd hear a rogue unstealthing behind you as your grinding mobs?

To me, this unpredictability of what other players might do and the constant danger is the main reason why I want to play MMOs.

Hurray skipping most of the posts to voice my opinion that next to no one will read!

To me, the difference between ganking and griefing is: If a person has a chance, however small, to have a real shot of surviving the attack and turn it around into a victory for themselves, than it is a gank.  Whether they were outnumbered or not is irrelevant, if they can even kill all of them (if only getting away with one) then it is a gank.

A grief happens when someone or anyone comes up and you have absolutely no chance of defending yourself.  You have no chance to live, you will die, there's nothing you can do about it.

This is the critical distinction between the two.  One, no matter how insurmountable the odds (5v1, lawl) you can at least kill one, esp if you decided to gank back after biding your own time or forming a group of similar level people.

The other, the person so severely outlevels you that you have no chance of fighting back, kills its chance of ever being a gank.  If you cannot physically fight back, then it's not a gank, it's griefing, intentionally causing harm to another player just because you can, and gaining satisfaction out of someone elses pain.  Schadenfreude.

I have a love-hate relationship with PVP servers.  I agree, that if it's just ganking, it can get very fun, because you can start your own skirmishes based off of ganking, whether you or the "enemy" started it, and it can be very fun to start something knowing full well in advance that someone else can fight back and attempt to kill you, just as much as you, them.

Once it becomes griefing, which in WoW as this post is encompassing would be anywhere around +5 to +10 levels on the person or group, is when it's going way too far, and can outright ruin the fun of a player, especially if it changes from ganking to corpse camping, or worse, griefing to corpse camping.

Honestly, I don't much care for PVP servers, and usually avoid them because of griefing, and not ganking, which is where the author of the main subject falls to me, as a griefer.  However, I honestly would care a lot less if the griefer had to make a conscious decision to grief me, knowing there were very real consequences in the game world for doing something dishonorable such as attacking someone well bellow their station.  The Dishonorable Kill system would probably make PVP servers more tolerable, but this is neither here nor there.

Originally posted by godzilr1

"More importantly, what makes getting killed and camped by a player any different than an NPC mob?"

You can CHOOSE to walk away from the mob and do other stuff.

Also:

PvP is not always a option, see Ultima Online

"you want Player vs Player? Ok what's your address?" *cocks shotgun*

“If you don’t want to get ganked (and/or griefed) don’t play on PvP, go to PvE.”

I have heard this advice so much my ears are bleeding. And it is empty advice, it has no value. Here is why:

I was playing on a PvE server. I had finally reached level 24 and was starting to get some decent abilities. My quest was to go kill a bunch of mobs so I went to the proper area. There was a player from the other side there who was level ?? (I later found out he was 64). I figured he was there for farming or whatever. After killing my first mob he flags himself and starts hoping around in front of me as much as he could. I accidently clicked on him, when attempting to click one of the mobs, got flagged and quickly killed. I figured better dying to him than a mob, at least I did not loose durability.

When I got back to my body there he was. Not so much camping as just running around in the area. I waited the needed five minutes to get un-flagged then rezed. Not much after that here he comes again doing exactly the same thing. After two more rounds of that I did finally log and go to an alt. It was too bad I was in the mood to play my 24 Shaman and not my 19 Fighter (or my 39 Cleric).

Notice none of my alts were anywhere near high enough to get revenge. And the guild mates of the right level had just started an instance half way across the world so there was no help there. There was also no response in chat when I asked about getting help.

So, this whole line about “just go play PvE” is garbage. You can still get ganked and griefed even there. It is the players like that one that are ruining the game for those that don’t want to PvP, for whatever reason. And yes, I did cancel my subscription shortly after this happened. There had been several other incidents but this was the last straw. Especially after being told that “PvP is part of the game experience. There is nothing we can do.” It should not be forced on you, it should be a choice.

Originally posted by Erolat

“If you don’t want to get ganked (and/or griefed) don’t play on PvP, go to PvE.”

I have heard this advice so much my ears are bleeding. And it is empty advice, it has no value. Here is why:

I was playing on a PvE server. I had finally reached level 24 and was starting to get some decent abilities. My quest was to go kill a bunch of mobs so I went to the proper area. There was a player from the other side there who was level ?? (I later found out he was 64). I figured he was there for farming or whatever. After killing my first mob he flags himself and starts hoping around in front of me as much as he could. I accidently clicked on him, when attempting to click one of the mobs, got flagged and quickly killed. I figured better dying to him than a mob, at least I did not loose durability.

When I got back to my body there he was. Not so much camping as just running around in the area. I waited the needed five minutes to get un-flagged then rezed. Not much after that here he comes again doing exactly the same thing. After two more rounds of that I did finally log and go to an alt. It was too bad I was in the mood to play my 24 Shaman and not my 19 Fighter (or my 39 Cleric).

Notice none of my alts were anywhere near high enough to get revenge. And the guild mates of the right level had just started an instance half way across the world so there was no help there. There was also no response in chat when I asked about getting help.

So, this whole line about “just go play PvE” is garbage. You can still get ganked and griefed even there. It is the players like that one that are ruining the game for those that don’t want to PvP, for whatever reason. And yes, I did cancel my subscription shortly after this happened. There had been several other incidents but this was the last straw. Especially after being told that “PvP is part of the game experience. There is nothing we can do.” It should not be forced on you, it should be a choice.

Um...learn to use the 'tab' key to target..?

*edit*

I don't mean to be a douchebag, or downplay what happened, but there are some real pricks in MMOs.  As a matter of fact, I ran into a real winner just a few nights ago...and they were the same faction as I was.  

I'd just rolled a brand-spankin' new dwarf toon, got up to level 6, and I was doing some dinky little quest killing Yetis.  I'm in the middle of a bunch of mobs, and out of nowhere this little pink haired female gnome warrior, level 10, comes running up and hits me with a duel request.  I decline and tell them to go away.  They call me a 'pussy' and request again.  I ignore them.  For the next 25 minutes, this person chased me around, spamming duel requests at me, which got auto-declined due to the being ignored, until I finally logged off because it was just too annoying.  Sometimes, you'll just run across a real piece of shit person, and have to deal with it.  Yes, it annoyed the crap out of me, but really, what can a person do?

Originally posted by Eben

Originally posted by Erolat

“If you don’t want to get ganked (and/or griefed) don’t play on PvP, go to PvE.”

I have heard this advice so much my ears are bleeding. And it is empty advice, it has no value. Here is why:

I was playing on a PvE server. I had finally reached level 24 and was starting to get some decent abilities. My quest was to go kill a bunch of mobs so I went to the proper area. There was a player from the other side there who was level ?? (I later found out he was 64). I figured he was there for farming or whatever. After killing my first mob he flags himself and starts hoping around in front of me as much as he could. I accidently clicked on him, when attempting to click one of the mobs, got flagged and quickly killed. I figured better dying to him than a mob, at least I did not loose durability.

When I got back to my body there he was. Not so much camping as just running around in the area. I waited the needed five minutes to get un-flagged then rezed. Not much after that here he comes again doing exactly the same thing. After two more rounds of that I did finally log and go to an alt. It was too bad I was in the mood to play my 24 Shaman and not my 19 Fighter (or my 39 Cleric).

Notice none of my alts were anywhere near high enough to get revenge. And the guild mates of the right level had just started an instance half way across the world so there was no help there. There was also no response in chat when I asked about getting help.

So, this whole line about “just go play PvE” is garbage. You can still get ganked and griefed even there. It is the players like that one that are ruining the game for those that don’t want to PvP, for whatever reason. And yes, I did cancel my subscription shortly after this happened. There had been several other incidents but this was the last straw. Especially after being told that “PvP is part of the game experience. There is nothing we can do.” It should not be forced on you, it should be a choice.

 

Um...learn to use the 'tab' key to target..?

*edit*

I don't mean to be a douchebag, or downplay what happened, but there are some real pricks in MMOs.  As a matter of fact, I ran into a real winner just a few nights ago...and they were the same faction as I was.  

I'd just rolled a brand-spankin' new dwarf toon, got up to level 6, and I was doing some dinky little quest killing Yetis.  I'm in the middle of a bunch of mobs, and out of nowhere this little pink haired female gnome warrior, level 10, comes running up and hits me with a duel request.  I decline and tell them to go away.  They call me a 'pussy' and request again.  I ignore them.  For the next 25 minutes, this person chased me around, spamming duel requests at me, which got auto-declined due to the being ignored, until I finally logged off because it was just too annoying.  Sometimes, you'll just run across a real piece of shit person, and have to deal with it.  Yes, it annoyed the crap out of me, but really, what can a person do?

The only thing I would have done  different was to report them for harassment in both cases.  And in your case taken a screen shot.  Sometimes even the threat of being reported scares them away.

Go play on a PvE server?  I never knew there was such a thing in WoW!  [That is after all the game we were talking about from the heading.]  I have been playing in MMOs since the late 1990s when I first discovered the Ruins of Kunark.  Besides WoW, where playing PvP is an additional cost to the subscription that I must pay to play a well designed game, I have played PvE and PvP in Everquest and Everquest 2 and Dark Age of Camelot, where PvP is also mandatory.

I am going to share with you the best laugh I ever had on a PvP server.  In EQ, I most enjoyed playing Enchanters, a difficult class but satisfyingly challenging.  On EQ PvP servers you are theoretically 'safe' until level ten but some pet owners had worked out, although they could not directly attack other players, their pets could start things off with a pet vs pet attack that dropped the protection and exposed other characters.  In EQ an enchanter's pet is a waste of manna but on reaching to level 8 you get mezzing!  I had one chanter I never tried to raise beyond level 8; she just mezzed the griefers' pets.  You learn a lot of new vocabulary from the griefers that way; none of it I could ever use though!

My basic life philosophy is, "Treat others they way you would hope they would treat you."  I pay money to play games to enjoy myself.  I should not enjoy my 'fun' at your expense.  MMos allow me to play in a social environment.  If you are my level +/- 3, then we are fair game for each other.  If you are grey and you want to have a go, hopefully it will be your funeral [ some just grey rogues can sometimes get the better of my petless characters and all credit to them ].  If there is a group of you greys and I am solo, that is part of the game.  I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time  If I am grey to you, killing me once to to prove you are superior is bearable although we both knew you could do that before you started.  After that, you have the notch on your bedhead, please move on.  You will not do it a third time; I have plenty of alts here and in other games.  If you are a level 80 at Crossorads or Goldshire, just repeatedly killing all the quest mobs, get a life!  If you are around my level and flagged, you are fair game.  I know that killing some mobs, even in self defense flags one but only you know what flagged you.  If you are grey and flagged, I will 'kill steal' you a couple of times [I know WoW has a lock-out, thanks] to suggest you move on.  If you will not take a hint, then you are dead once before I move on.  Should you be grey and unflagged, I might help you with removing any adds in a fight or two or clear your route if you are doing an escort quest.  You might just remeber that, when you face a similar predicament.  I have never kept any revenge lists and get on with trying to bring pleasure into my life.  MMOs are simply more fun because they afford the social grouping element that stand-alones have not.

As far as gaming goes, there are only two things on my wish list;-

1)  Blizzard [ and NCSoft ] would create PVE servers so folk could just enjoy their games in company.

2)  Skull killers [ level unknown ] start losing more and more experience each time after initiating the second and repeated killings of the same grey, the experience going to the grey in compensation for the grief.  The killed flag could drop after twenty-four hours and would drop automatically if the grey tried being macho and attached on reviving.

Be safe or die laughing.

so you like pvp,

Y E T  Y O U  P L A Y  W o W.

funny.

To sumarise, no, I don't like really PvP but that is an additional cost I have to bear to play a well designed / constructed game.  Many PvPers are rational individuals and play a reasonable game [ chalk up the hit and move on ].  The down side is the number of Gankers and Griefers that PvP attracts.  Look on the bright side - if they're giving one grief in an MMORPG they're not out griefing some pensioner or invalid up a dark alley.

I play WoW on a PvP server because of the danger, the challenge. Gankers and griefers are part of the excitement. Their existence fosters teaming-up and camaraderie between guildmates.