You know, this article made me think of something. Why focus on creating so much end-game content at all? Why not split 30/30/40 time creating new content for solo leveling/group leveling/end-game content respectively? 

 I rather like the idea of being able to level-down my max lvl toons in WoW to help out lowbies.  Of course, the reward carrot dangling in front of my toon's face is always a bonus incentive. Gotta love those reward carrots! A decendent of the Carrot on a Stick mount speed boosting trinket from WoW?? LMAO

Why the hell is there no spell check for forum posts here?? 

Originally posted by Yunbei

Actually IMVPO the tightest spot is not the low levels, but those 10-20 levels before the top. There always are plenty who reroll and play the first 20 levels, but many quit after that and return to the max level chars. Or you have a guild which helps, since they did the low level stuff so long ago, they don't mind doing it again. But nothing was so difficult in EQ2 as to get people for the level 60-77 level stuff. When everyone in the guild was 80 by then, they just had done it and thus little will to see it just again. And as I experienced it those last 20 levels BEFORE the top were WAY harder to make. The XP is usually lowest and the ranks of fellows to group and thinnest.

Sidenote: I NEVER EVER understood why high levels take so much more XP to level up. Wouldn't it be logical to make them easier and the low levels slower? I mean, when you are new, like say, you learn Quantum Physics, the first steps are slow and take long, but once you are Einstein you rush through learning new things with leaps. Should the levelling curve not be entirely the other way around as it is present?? LONG at the beginning and fast at the end?

You bring up some good points, certainly worth thinking about. Consider this though, wouldn't the game deter more people by making the game grindy in the beginning?

Some very good ideas. Also some that I am sure would not work as intended.

Atlantica offers a mentoring system which benefits the mentor and the mentee.  That has been the first game I have seen this type of system. Mind you I am saying it is the first for me. I found it nice and players are always willing to help with advancing crafting and other players as they are rewarded for doing so. This is something I think many could work into their system if they chose to and maybe would help reduce the "I" "Me" factor a bit.

I know that I for one in WoW have alts. My main nor my alts have experienced  much of the old world content. Why? Because there just isn't anyone willing to do them. Yea some of the instances and dungeons you can find groups for simply because of the badges. However, with all the changes in badges that is not as possible anymore. It would be nice to be able to go through the old content and get the Achievements for it but I find it harder and harder as the new content comes in. 

With the next expansion and total change in the world I have to wonder if any of that old content will still be available to even get those achievements.  All of us want to improve our toons and many of us want to obtain the Achievements. But like you have said it is hard when no one wants to take the time.

Yes you can pay  a sum to get a high level to run you through, but there is much of the old content that still isn't possible without a group. If most of the group is highest level and there is just you maybe it will work. But the big problem is finding those high levels to take the time to do this. Many don't worry about it with their alts. I unfortunately was unable to see all that content with my main so leveling solo was what I did with  a group here and there when I had to.  In my situation my toons are the highest lvl so it is finding others to join. I am in a good guild but most could care less about the old world content. Many experienced as they leveled which I was not able to do.

I for one would love to see something put in that would help those new and old to the game be able to achieve what was intended for the game.

I am very much looking forward to the Skirmish system in Lotro.

You get to scale the contents difficulty.

Mobs are randomized (spawn location, number of spawns and lieutenants (the equivalent to bosses, there are a variety of them that can appear))

You get to scale the group requirement (something that the article didn't mention i don't think) from solo, 3 man, 6man and some can be made too 12man(more of these will be added latter)

The rewards will scale on level, and difficulty. (more details coming next week)

You get to customize your own personal NPC soldier.

They are going to integrate them into the epic book quests so that all can take part in them.

Here are the Dev diaries (if any are interested, the reward one coming next week):

Part 1: Overview:  http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdiaries/484-developer-diary-som-skirmishes-overview

Part 2: Story Instances:  http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdiaries/499-developer-diary-som-skirmishes-story-instances

Part 3: Randomization and Scaling:  http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdiaries/505-developer-diary-som-skirmishes-randomization-and-scaling

Part 4: Skirmish Soldiers:   http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdiaries/508-developer-diary-som-skirmishes-skirmish-soldiers

There is an even simpler solution, although it does require a radical break with the WoW end game model.

Kill the player.

It would solve a lot of problems,including the one mentioned in this article.

Now those who are very proud of their hard grinded raid gear, best move on, this post is just going to upset you.

The current problem

When I say, kill the player, I of course mean the players character. The idea is not new. D&D has done it for ages. As you character levels up, they run the real risk of dying a perma-death but that is not what I am talking about. What I mean is the almost forced retirement when you reach lvl20 (actual lvl might have changed over the years). 

If you played say Baldur's Gate, then you will know why there are no endless levels, once you start becoming a demi-god, what is there left? When a mage can call down a metorite, what is next? The moon? 

Oblivion, with its scaling level system ran into a similar problem, what sense does it make to have highway men trying to shake you down for a few copper when they wear armor costing several gold pieces?

You got two options, the WoW/EQ method where each level increase gives you simply a % increase to all stats (including the enemies) or you have a REAL end game. Where the warrior becomes knight, does a few knight like things, and the retires. The thief becomes head of the thiefs guild and no longer tries to pickpocket street urchins for a copper.

We USED to replay games with a real end all the time, in fact the best RPG's are like this. You start as a newbie, experience an adventure and then... the END. The story is over. Time for The Next Generation.

The MMO that did this

Star Wars Galaxies with its holo-grind, created a system, by accident, that ensured there was always an active mid-game. In order to unlock Jedi, people had to grind a number of other profffesions. Since you could change proffesions by giving up aquired skills and gaining XP in a different field you had a constant supply of people starting new on a proffesion and therefor needing mid-game content. 

It made for a very dynamic game.

Why it needs to be done

1. Endless levels means you either spent an enormous amount of creative energie creating new skills and new enemies OR end up with shrews (very small mouse) killing a player who slew  an undead dragon, a balrog and "Oh yeah", a few dozen shrews. (Lotro)

2. The dead of the mid game. With endgame raiding your players will revisit the endgame content over and over while your midgame content goes unused. Content costs money, unused content is wasted money. It is FAR easier to create challenging content for a mid-level character then an end lvl character. And with more content of use to the player, the grind is less apparent.

3. It is a change. WoW is a great game, but it has been done. There is an audience for a game that tries something different. Just as Lucasarts re-invented the adventure by NOT killing the player (Sierra killed you at the drop of a hat), an MMO company might make its own mark by killing the player.

How it would play

The game consist roughly of three areas. The starter/tutorial area is played through once, it teaches you the game.  It is fairly short, as befits a tutorial and once you are out, you are in the mid game. The mid game is where you define your character, build your reputation, you become the person you are.

The end game is different, once your character reaches a certain treshhold it becomes time to start an epic quest, a great trial that either leads to you going down in history, one way or another. Wether you die or retire or ascend does not matter, wat matters is that you had an epic conclusion, you fought a fight that would make lesser lvl's piss their pants against impossible odds and then the credits roll.

And then? You start a new character, see a different part of the world, making different choices. A little inheritance comes your way, but effectivly, you are thrown back in the mid game.

Insanity!

Really? Knights of the Old Republic does this, you can skip the tutorial after you played it once, and your second character can take a new path through the game if you so desire.

In fact, single player games do this all the time. You finished the game, good job, now start it over again, from the start, as a newbie.

But what about my raid gear?

What are you doing here? Didn't I tell you to skip this post? Oh, oh well. You got no raid gear. Gear could NEVER be a major objective in this game. You wouldn't have it for long after all. The fun in this game should not be in collecting stats but rather the fun of gaming itself. Remember, in Kotor and other RPG's, you do loose that super weapon you got at the end.

This type of game would be more about story, wether that is a story told by the game or by the players is open, but the goal must first and foremost be fun. Not the e-penis raid gear often seems to be.

Could it work?

Yes, for a daring game. It has worked, does work, in single player games (play Dragon Age Journey's, they expect you to start over 3 times, to collect a special item). The trick would be daring to tell the WoW gamer that their end-game consisting of collecting gear is not going to be in your game. This is a problem, Age of Conan dared to change the loot system people expected and soon enough had to give in to the endless demands. Demands by players who soon gave up, leaving the game with a bad copy of a loot system.

Yes, I think it can work. Not for a game that wants to be a WoW-2, but if you are willing to change your mind-set that you spend endless time in a game grinding gear that will be obsolete when the next ten identical levels come along, then maybe this idea has some merit.

Originally posted by neonwire

.........or people could simply learn from their mistakes and stop churning out linear MMOs with levels. Make a game where everyone can participate in various activities regardless of how powerful they are. EVE seems to have managed this so why is it so difficult for other games to figure out?

Yes congratulations we've learned that if you make a game where you start at the level 1 area and end at the level 80 area then eventually everyone will be at the level 80 area. Gosh! Who could ever have forseen such an outcome? How many times do games companies have to keep relearning this lesson before they finally figure out that maybe.....just maybe.....this is a really really shit way to make an MMO. Rather than trying to find various quick fix solutions to this problem, wouldnt it make more sense to just simply not create the problem in the first place? Pay a high level friend to walk you through all the games content? ha ha ha! What a joke! Can game design possibly get any worse?

You are quick to criticize. I wonder if you have any doable alternative ideas. The only alternative I can think of is a game without progression. Because anytime there is character progression, there is also progressively harder content. So in the end, you still end up with a top heavy population killing the things that put up the most fight.

Originally posted by sfc1971

There is an even simpler solution, although it does require a radical break with the WoW end game model.

Kill the player. <snip>

I think it could work, but the trick is making a fun game. Single player RPG's get away with it, because they spend all of their money making sure the game is fun to play from the beginning to the end. The most successful single player RPG's gives players multiple ways to play from the beginning to the end, thus giving the game replayability.

Most MMORPG's are not that fun to play from the beginning to the end, thus why the term "grind" was applied to these games. The "real" fun as many people say, comes when you begin doing epic things, such as taking down god-like creatures or fighting other players for real estate and resources.

Your idea would turn the genre upside down, and redefine it. Traditional MMORPG players define the genre as something akin to an alternate life, where they can live out their fantasies in a game world that just keeps going on and on. They won't take kindly to a game implementing single player elements, and taking away their virtual world. However, those with a more open mind, and an eye focused on fun rather tedium may find this idea novel.

I think it's a novel idea, and would work if all of the content was actually fun to play through and they offered a lot of replayability.

sfc1971, good post. I think it's a very good idea. A game like The Old Republic with a heavy focus on story would be a good candidate for this. Over on that game's forum, people have been asking "What happens when I reach the end of the story?" What is the character's motivation to keep killing stuff once his or her story has run its course? It seems like player characters in TOR are going to repeatedly be hanging out there in limbo waiting for expansion packs to carry the stories forward, with odd periods of story-less repetition filling the gaps.

Y'know, it's funny how we have this concept in MMORPGs called "endgame" that has nothing to do with ending the game. A game developer would look quite clever if he was asked what the endgame is like in his game, and he answered "well, the game ends, you see."

Originally posted by CayneJobb

Y'know, it's funny how we have this concept in MMORPGs called "endgame" that has nothing to do with ending the game. A game developer would look quite clever if he was asked what the endgame is like in his game, and he answered "well, the game ends, you see."

Exactly. And with SWTOR, how can you have an epic story line, if it doesn't end.
 

I think game devs are to afraid their game ain't fun. I have a LOT of fun in Lotro, in the mid level, everyone is friendly and there is nobody trying to lay claim to rare drops or whatever. Win a roll, you get a gratz, not a "NINJA!"

As nate says above, gaming should be fun. When you played Kotor what bit was the best? The star forge or all the content before?

I am curious to see what SWTOR will do. For that matter, what dragon age: origins might do. I get the feeling that last game (although solo) might show just how intresting it can be to replay a game from a different viewpoint. If anyone can revamp MMO's it is Bioware... of course, it also EA so it could also be the ultimate money squeeze.

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Originally posted by sfc1971
I think game devs are to afraid their game ain't fun. I have a LOT of fun in Lotro, in the mid level, everyone is friendly and there is nobody trying to lay claim to rare drops or whatever. Win a roll, you get a gratz, not a "NINJA!"
 

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They want people to keep on playing, to keep subscriptions going. They probably think their game is fun, but they're not confident enough that players will want to repeat the same content over again with a new character. That's understandable. The challenge would be in creating new experiences and character journeys so that it's different each time through, and expansion packs would have to be about adding new classes with new story paths, not just adding another 10 levels for the existing characters. It would be a challenge to make an MMO like this, but if it was done well it could be revolutionary.

Lack of population in the mid-levels is a direct result of a flawed leveling system as is the current MMO standard.

Content becoming obsolete is a result of the following flaw: tying content to a level, or to a level range.

Tying content to a level range of 10-20, 20-30 is somewhat better, but is still not fully breaking the cycle as we know it.

Design content that is based on difficulty levels, not a player's level. Rewards are immediate and do not require a specific character level to claim.

Design levels to be an independant concept of 'completeness of play' within the game. Seperate the 2 concepts. Therein is the solution.

Originally posted by pojung

Lack of population in the mid-levels is a direct result of a flawed leveling system as is the current MMO standard.

Content becoming obsolete is a result of the following flaw: tying content to a level, or to a level range.

Tying content to a level range of 10-20, 20-30 is somewhat better, but is still not fully breaking the cycle as we know it.

Almost every mmo has a ridicoulously easy levels 1-10(or 20), as the player is intro'd to the game, skills are added, stats increased.....

Once you get past the mid game crisis and can see the end game content approaching there is a surge to get those last 10 or so levels done and get into the 'good stuff'.

From what I have experienced the downfall in the mid-game crisis can occur from a few different oversites, which usually leave the player to gain xp from senseless grinding.

I don't want to start a 'Questing IS Grinding' flame, but questing gives some form of purpose/structure to the time played - personally if I have some quests that involve killing a lot of mobs then I'll do the quests - or maybe just one of them if im trying to squeeze in a quick fix on my lunch break, but I really don't want to walk around randomly killing stuff for the sole purpose of xp.

Some games have a great mid game content - that involves mandatory group play.  Not that there is anything wrong with this, but the down side comes from many angles.  Older games struggle to find the players wanting to do this content at the same time as each other, and a lot of gamers (that I know) love to guild it up for raids, but levelling seems to be a more personal experience that you go through at your own pace.

I wondered if you could put level caps throughout a game where certain events need to be completed before continuing, but like what would happens is that the older gamers wouldn't go back through it except for close friends, and as the game ages and lower level population thins the chances of getting a group together in a reasonably short time is unlikely - leaving players to say "This game was good until I got past the starting phase of the game" which unfortunately is becoming far to common these days.

@ BlueSkunk

I think we agree on the why of the mid-level vacuum if I'm reading your post right.. regardless of the methods of leveling up, it results in a dry experience with lack of community. This ailment is accentuated as level caps are raised, and the playerbase shifts from being bottom heavy to top heavy in level values.

Having a game with great mid-game content, with mandatory grouping is nice in threory but never works. Why? There's still no purpose. If I want content and grouping, I'm going to, as an individual, naturally yearn for where I can find both: at level cap. So mandatory grouping isn't even a functioning fix.

You don't need to 'wonder if you could put level caps throughout a game that require certain criteria to be met to advance' ... you literally *can* put level caps throughout a game where certain events need to be completed in order to progress. If you're a designer, there's no wondering 'if', it's a question of 'how'. And your idea holds much weight: a level system is a concept that is popular, but shouldn't be simply 'reach 100xp to advance', but rather 'reach 100xp, then you unlock a test stage'. Pass the test, advance to the next level. To baby this thought along: the acquisition of those 100xp should hopefully be done in a way that prepares the gamer for the test. Always keeping the whole picture in mind, of course, is the cornerstone to solid game design.

Edit: Format

One way around this might be to have players generate "threat levels". Generally higher level players don't like running lower level quests because 1) they've run them before 2) they get nothing of value out of them. 3) there is no challenge.

But consider, what if  the NPCs generated by quests were based on the "threat levels" of players involved in it.  For instance, I have a quest where I have to enter an instance and fight my way to a boss to kill him. If I am level 10 and soloing, the quest generates an appropriate numbers of NPCs such that  the quest  will be challenging. At the end I receive a reward appropriate to my level.  Now I'm level 60 and I want to run the quest again. This time when I run the quest, lvl 60 NPCs and rewards are generated.  But here's where the fun begins, I can run the same quest with lower level players and the instance will generate a combination of both lower level and higher level NPCs. The mixture of NPCs is determined by AI based on the "threat"  which is a function of each players level.  All drops are scaled according to the mixture of levels running them. As an added incentive for higher level characters to include lower levels, special rewards and skills could be awarded to them.(To avoid insta-death of lower level players by high level NPCs, the NPCs would only attack players of certain levels. All xp and rewards would be tailored to the players levels.)

This system would also have the added advantage of drawing higher level players back into newbie areas to provide newbies with information as well as incentive to reach higher levels while giving the higher level player some special rewards. Just my take.

What I would like to see, in a level-based game like WoW, is an adjustment made for the lower level group content to make it soloable once new content comes out so that, as a population starts to thin out and groups become harder to find, the group content gets "solo-fied" either by being scaled down, de-elitized, or else NPC Heroes are added to help players experiance and complete the lower-level INSTANCED content.

Using WoW as an example, once WotLK was released, the Old World instances and those in Burning Crusade, imo, should have been made soloable, either through the use of NPC "henchmen" (as is done in Guild Wars) or by scaling.

Most MMOs are only actually multiplayer for the newest content, where the vast majority of players dwell. The rest, the early, low-level stuff (e.g., Old Azeroth and Burning Crusade) is basically a single-player game and should be treated as such.