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Originally posted by pojung
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Originally posted by pepsibottle
Gates of Discord, it was the EQ expansion that almost killed EQ. WoW was released right after.
You are sooooo wrong! POK killed EQ.
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If WOW has killed the MMORPG genre, why is there twelve-million+ people playing it? I bet that twelve mil is from many of the other major MMO's, don't you agree? If WoW has killed the MMO genre, then why is it such a success? Even to casual players it's a wonderful game. And to hardcore players, it caters to aspects of everyone, not just the people in between or the people who don't have enough play time, everyone can reach end game and get SOME sort of geared character, I admit, Vanilla WoW would be considered Extremely-Hardcore-elitist-or-die game, but they've softened the game up for the entire MMORPG community, WoW hasn't done anything to the genre. Companies just can't seem to find a game as good(yes, as good) as WoW to fit EVERYONE'S needs. What I've noticed is that there is either hardcore games, grind till you die, or there's casual anyone can play it. Some people like those, others don't. WoW is a mix of the two. No, WoW has not killed MMO's. And before I get raged at for being on Blizzard's side, don't be jealous that WoW is successful other than your favorite MMO. Sorry, that's just what having a multi-million dollar company does when they release a game. |
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Originally posted by Josher
Most people didn't hate MMO's in the 90's, it's just most people didn't know they existed. It was a small knit group that played MMO's in the 90's, which (IMO) mainly consisted of 20+ year old players of old D&D style board games and MUD's. Once Blizzard came along with it's already extensive revenue from it's prior games, they had that revenue to advertise on everything from T.V. adds, to the internet, to making a deal with Pepsi and advertising on their products, etc on a massive scale and draw in everyone from console players to the parents of kids who like video games into the genre, etc.
Why is WoW so popular and we have to hear NON STOP about how it's the best thing since sliced bread? (Which IMO, it is not)... - The means to use massive advertisement in multiple mediums. - Super easy game-play so everyone from console players to the technologically inept parents of kids can play WITH their kids, etc. - The inability of OTHER companies to look not only at what features (If any) are good to use from WoW, but more so, to look PAST WoW at what they can do to separate itself from it and still be successful. |
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World of warcraft was already a massive multimillion player success before TV ads, pepsi deals and all of that other advertising. EQ2 released at the same time as wow and had the same type of advertising wow did. They were direct competitors, but the results were drastically different. Wow was a polished well designed game and it attracted masses of players with its gameplay. EQ2 was a mess of slapped together designs and incomplete features. I mention this, because it is very representative of the entire market and why things are they way they are today. Companies continue to repeat the "EQ2" mistake. |
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Originally posted by Daffid011 World of warcraft was already a massive multimillion player success before TV ads, pepsi deals and all of that other advertising. EQ2 released at the same time as wow and had the same type of advertising wow did. They were direct competitors, but the results were drastically different. Wow was a polished well designed game and it attracted masses of players with its gameplay. EQ2 was a mess of slapped together designs and incomplete features. I mention this, because it is very representative of the entire market and why things are they way they are today. Companies continue to repeat the "EQ2" mistake.
Why is it that ALL the WoW players bring up the "millions of subscriber's" defense? They didn't have millions at launch or even after 6 months on the market. Maybe almost a year AFTER launch they had those numbers. And I bet a good number of those numbers they were counting were gold farmer's honestly just to boast their numbers. WoW WAS NOT polished at launch either. It had a pretty rough launch with bugs like other MMO's. It may of been the most polished of it's predecessor's at the time however. I also know I didn't see any T.V. advertisements for EQ2 anywhere, or their advertisement's slapped on any product. I've seen their advertisement's on gaming website's like most MMO's do though. Maybe it depended on the area you live in. I looked on youtube before I wrote this looking for any such advertisements to no avail even. But whatever...I'm not getting sucked into an argument with the WoW players, because no matter what you say, or what points you bring up, they mostly just ignore them and tell you how great WoW is and how little you know. Most are incapable of seeing both sides of the coin and taking criticism of their beloved game well. And I'm not just picking on WoW... I played it until just after the release of TBC. These are my opinions through observation, but after all that time playing it, I noticed more each month that greed was taking over in place of making truly great game features that would keep it an MMO and not turning towards being a console game. Battlegrounds, stat pages, more and more dumbed down linear game play, gear driven, etc. Which in turn pulled in more and more console players, which meant more and more kids....which is why I quit playing more than anything because the community (No matter what server I moved to) was massively immature, rude, and selfish. Although I'm sure if it weren't for the community being the reason I left that it wouldn't of been much longer that the features would have. But now the flames will reignite because I dared speak my mind and say something negative about WoW. |
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In the past 5 years the MMO-playing community has gone from a few thousand RPG nerds to tens of millions players worldwide. What in Jebus' name makes you think the genre has been "killed"?  |
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Leodious
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 2/28/06
Socializer: 67% |
To be clear. I don't like WoW. I played it some time ago, but that was mostly because I loved the RTS games and wanted to be a part of that world - but that is neither here nor there. WoW is not a bad game, however. I do not like many of their mechanics, and I do not like their gear grind or the general power of gear. I do not like the crafting, and I do not like the direction the lore is going. I do not like how raiding has progressed (though it is better than 40 mans). However, this is not to say it is a bad game. I do not like these things because they do not suit me personally, due to my playstyle or my desires for a game, not because they are poorly done. They are masterfully done, and the level of polish far, FAR outclasses everything else out there. End of story. WoW is a good game. You might not like it either, but it is very, very well done, for what it is. That is key. It is what it is. If you don't like it, that is different from it not being good. Sorry, I seem to have harped on a that a little too hard. |
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another one of these threads? come on.
this is like the newest genre and one game was super successful. there is SO much to do with MMORPGs that haven't been tickled yet that I would never worry about one game killing a genre. There are plenty of games that are different from WoW, and those are the ones I play.
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What WoW has done? Beat the competition. Enough said. Wait until Cataclysm is released, WoW will reign supreme forever! Hail to Almighty Blizzard!
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robert4818
Novice Member
Joined: 4/14/03
"Everyone is born with just a spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." --Robin Williams |
Originally posted by cmar001
Wow, you are really narrow minded. WOW has had a great impact on the MMO industry, both good and bad. Good It has brought alot of new players to the MMO world It has brough alot of new designers and games into the world. If it wasn't for WOW you would NOT have seen the number of games made that have been made. Bad People now see WOW as the level of success. If it doesn't reach even 50% of WOW's numbers its a failure. Before that EQ was considered the biggest MMO out there, and its subscription was only 500k or so. People try to copy WOW, or big board rooms think that it must emulate WOW to be successful. This is of course nothing new, its just what happens when big money comes into an industry. Look at all the mario clones, God of War clones, etc. that are out there. People see a winning formula and they want to try to cash in on it.
The reality is that we are still somewhat early in the MMO genre lifespan. You are going to see MMO's come and go, but the reality is that the MMO genre as a whole, good and bad, would not be where it is now, if WOW hadn't come along.
Ideas presented here are free. They are presented for the community to use how they see fit. All I ask is just a thanks if they should be used. |
Originally posted by robert4818
Bringing a lot of new players to the MMO genre although good in some ways is also bad. It brought a lot of people from the console realm speaking out for more solo play (like a console games), stat pages to keep track of how 1337 they are (Like FPS console games), and wanting everything to be easier (like console games for the instant gratification factor). And seeing the amount of MMO's brought out in recent years due to WoW isn't necessarily a good thing either. Look at out of those made how many have failed in the first few months after release. I agree with all of your bad points however. |
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What has the world of MMO's ever done to people playing WOW ? Looking at the launches of the past 4 years. Not much. The competition isn't still over the BLOW that Blizzard gave to the amateurish, incredibly boring, unpolished, basement dwelling LACK of gameplay people had to endure ... because they didn't know better. And then everyone wonders why people don't play long term subscriptions en mass for those duds ....
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Originally posted by cmar001
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I only read the OP.. and i just wanted to add your experience with wow was totally different to mine.. |
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Originally posted by Goatgod76 1) Yes wow did in fact have million and millions of subscribers before the television ads, product endorsements, etc. I will link you the press releases if you really need, but here is the chart that used those same press releases. The millionS occured long before the television commercials.
2) Wow may not have been as polished at release as it is today (nothing shocking there), but it was so much better than most mmo releases that reviews started using the word polish to describe wows gameplay. Really try to understand that, the release of wow birthed the use of the word polish in relation to mmos. You can have your opinion of what the game was, but the fact is wow introduced the word polish with its release.
3) You did not see EQ2 commercials at release, because there were none. Just like there were no wow tv commercials until late 2007, nearly 3 years after its release. So by the looks of things, wow had close to 9 million players before all the televison ads started airing. Which would mean wow success did not result from tv ads like many incorrectly assume. July 2007 wow reaches 9 million players Wow first television commercial Late 2007
Now all I have done is posted facts to support my comments. I did not flame you, unless you have some really thin skin.
I must however say you need to check your facts before you go making the type of comments you have. As for your complaints about wow players not seeing things correctly, perhaps you should take a step back from your zeal and look at things a little more objectively before you tell someone else they are wrong.
Ok? |
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good: Significantly raised the competition bad: |
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Originally posted by Deien
LOL..............
I think you are proof of your first point.
I am not sure that is Blizzards fault though.
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Originally posted by Daffid011 1) Yes wow did in fact have million and millions of subscribers before the television ads, product endorsements, etc. I will link you the press releases if you really need, but here is the chart that used those same press releases. The millionS occured long before the television commercials.
2) Wow may not have been as polished at release as it is today (nothing shocking there), but it was so much better than most mmo releases that reviews started using the word polish to describe wows gameplay. Really try to understand that, the release of wow birthed the use of the word polish in relation to mmos. You can have your opinion of what the game was, but the fact is wow introduced the word polish with its release.
3) You did not see EQ2 commercials at release, because there were none. Just like there were no wow tv commercials until late 2007, nearly 3 years after its release. So by the looks of things, wow had close to 9 million players before all the televison ads started airing. Which would mean wow success did not result from tv ads like many incorrectly assume. July 2007 wow reaches 9 million players Wow first television commercial Late 2007
Now all I have done is posted facts to support my comments. I did not flame you, unless you have some really thin skin.
I must however say you need to check your facts before you go making the type of comments you have. As for your complaints about wow players not seeing things correctly, perhaps you should take a step back from your zeal and look at things a little more objectively before you tell someone else they are wrong.
Ok?
I was fine with most of your reply until the end where it appears, at least to me, that your coping an attitude. I never said in my post what I was saying was fact...I guess another case of where it's necessary to add an "In my opinion or IMO" to avoid being taken as fact and being ripped for it despite that not being the case. I was going on memory of what I saw from WoW...as I said, I haven't played it since a bit after TBC's released, so it's been quite awhile. I said that WoW wasn't polished at launch, just as other MMO's. I also said that it was the most polished compared to any predecessor's. I agree that it probably molded that term into the MMO genre do to the amount of polished it accomplished over the years. So some of what I said was incorrect, I realize that after you presented proof (Thank you for that. Most wouldn't bother and just continue pointless argument) and apologize. I was going on what I remembered of it at the time I quit, since I haven't looked back since then. But whatever...I can admit mistake. I am just so tired of seeing thread after thread sucking on WoW's beanbags. Yes, it brought a lot of new player's to the genre, it introduced a lot of new features, it opened the gates for more MMO game development...but I personally (IMO let me stress) do not feel it was for the genre's better. AT least not the way they introduced them nor how it has blinded other developer's from trying to bring something different to the table so we can stop bouncing between all the clones that have since come out. And that is Blizzard's fault just as much as it is these other companies faults for simply trying to copy and not bring their own spin and ideas to their game. Now everyone tries to make linear simplistic game play with uninspiring quests, gear heavy and dependent game play, uninspiring back stories and character advancement, etc, etc, etc. Tried DDO, Runes of Magic, The Chronicles of Spellborn, Vanguard:SoH (Again), EQ2, EVE (Again), AoC (played the longest of all of these), and many others. Quit them all anywhere from a week in, up to a month or two of playing. Mainly because it was all the same crap, just with a different skin attached. STILL waiting for something to grab me like EQ did in 99'. Hopefully it will be SW:ToR. Not sure I can take many more clones or the waiting game anymore for something actually engaging for more than a few months. Sigh...
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Just a point on the side: Blizzard promised player housing in WoW, it never came. |
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Originally posted by Yohanu Nah, they didn't. It was mentioned a few times as something that they "wanted to do at some point", but I don't believe they ever promised it. Which is a bugger, 'cos it's a great addition to a game world and I miss not having it. |
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Originally posted by Goatgod76 Yes I coped a bit of attitude at the end of my post, but it was rather mild in comparison the the generalization you lumped me into. I should have held my tongue though, sorry. As for wow hurting the genre, I just can't really agree with that. If nothing else it sent the message to developers that games can and should be of higher quality at release and companies should not expect players to fund the last year of development in a release setting. The damage to the genre is due to the weakness and failures of many companies that blizzard has no control over. Imagine this if you will. Lets say DDO, SWG, AC2, Hellgate:london, The Sims, Dark and Light, and Tabula Rasa all had much different releases. They were not buggy beyond what most players would tolerate. They were feature complete and they capitalized on the mmo market that was waiting to be drawn into the genre with a game that finally delivered. Now you have half a dozen games that are all successful and have various different gameplay aspects. So when a developer looks what makes money they have multiple choices to draw upon. Suddenly the market looks very different and instead of a massive pile of failures that will turn companies away from those style of games, they have success stories to borrow ideas from. More sandbox games, more FPS games, more world building, etc.
Instead the market is filled with a few everquest clones and one space game that are the only real examples of success. Yes, wow is just an everquest clone and a continuation of a ten year trend. So the notion that wow somehow changed the genre is a little silly since wow in itself is just another clone.
The market is so freaking lopsided, because of so many companies failures. It isn't like the only games being make are everquest clones. The problem is that the non-eqclone games have been terrible failures that no one in their right mind is going to emulate. |
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Originally posted by Daffid011 Yes I coped a bit of attitude at the end of my post, but it was rather mild in comparison the the generalization you lumped me into. I should have held my tongue though, sorry. As for wow hurting the genre, I just can't really agree with that. If nothing else it sent the message to developers that games can and should be of higher quality at release and companies should not expect players to fund the last year of development in a release setting. The damage to the genre is due to the weakness and failures of many companies that blizzard has no control over. Imagine this if you will. Lets say DDO, SWG, AC2, Hellgate:london, The Sims, Dark and Light, and Tabula Rasa all had much different releases. They were not buggy beyond what most players would tolerate. They were feature complete and they capitalized on the mmo market that was waiting to be drawn into the genre with a game that finally delivered. Now you have half a dozen games that are all successful and have various different gameplay aspects. So when a developer looks what makes money they have multiple choices to draw upon. Suddenly the market looks very different and instead of a massive pile of failures that will turn companies away from those style of games, they have success stories to borrow ideas from. More sandbox games, more FPS games, more world building, etc.
Instead the market is filled with a few everquest clones and one space game that are the only real examples of success. Yes, wow is just an everquest clone and a continuation of a ten year trend. So the notion that wow somehow changed the genre is a little silly since wow in itself is just another clone.
The market is so freaking lopsided, because of so many companies failures. It isn't like the only games being make are everquest clones. The problem is that the non-eqclone games have been terrible failures that no one in their right mind is going to emulate.
Oh I completely agree that it sent a message of needing to put out a more complete game at release. Just look at AoC and the train wreck that game became. Which on a side note PISSED me off after sinking $100 into the collector's edition. Last time I EVER make that mistake. I also agree that it is other companies faults for simply trying to make a WoW clone and not separating themselves from WoW enough. But the things I feel WoW DID do to hurt the genre, to a degree, was dumbing down the mechanics to the point that anyone, and I mean anyone..could pick up a play. NOT that that would be a bad thing at all, other than it DID bring in a ton of console players that had never heard of MMO's prior to WoW, and try to change every MMO coming down the pipe through majority mass whining to be like it. Or either act as if they know what makes a great MMO, and whine and flame others for having an opinion...when most of those people expressing their opinions have been into MMO's since their birth. Which, another point to blame other companies for listening to the masses at times. So yes, it's more other companies faults, but at the same time, it's not as if Blizzard isn't completely free of any blame. I just wish SOME company would grow a pair and make something refreshingly new. It's funny because they all seem to be timid in doing so, but I don't think they realize if they did and it was successful, they would make a killing. Although, I guess it's a huge risk either way....but the way I see it, which is better... Going the safe route and making a clone that players will get bored of in a few weeks, or make something fresh and different and taking the same chance of flopping from making a clone, or the possibility of having a block buster because it is new and refreshing and not the same ole same ole. |
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I can't say that WoW has ruined the genre as it has opened the door to a much larger audience than any other MMORPG has.
However it has ruined the genre for me. MMORPGS is becoming more and more console'ish and casual friendly for my liking.
I miss the old days. |
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Originally posted by Fibsdk
That's what I'm saying. But at the same time, it has flooded the genre with a lot more douchebags than were ever here before. Yes, you can say more people, more idiots, and it's true to a point. But go on any WoW server, or any server of any game with PvP elements since WoW and tell me it isn't WAY worse than the days of EQ and UO. Or even EVE, which is a PvP game I have played off and on for 2 years now. It has a fairly civil PvP community. Why? Long progression and tough game play. |
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