Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Lansid

If you're so hellbent on the classic days of Everquest, the only thing that I found was worse (or better for some) was FFXI. There was no soloing past level 10. Teamwork is a must, and understanding skill chaining is a must as well. Not only do you have to know YOUR role, but the role of others... and visa versa to have an effective group. FFXI was just as campy as Everquest, so if you loved Woodstock-style camps of people waiting around for mobs to pop, then FFXI is for you. There are quests in the game, but the game is not QUEST DRIVEN like your more modern MMO's... and it's not as stupid and useless as the age old EverQUEST model either. Actually the cinematics with quests are rather enjoyable and help with immersion. 

Free trial on it's website, give it a test run.

Perhaps I will.  I always just figured I missed the boat on FFXI, but at least it will hold me until something else comes along.  Besides I'm a big fan of Nobuo Uematsu.  I'm gonna give L2 another go as well, but I think I'm done with EVE.  I want to be in control of my rate of progress, not just pick a skill and then go play something else, which is what I wound up doing half the time.

Thanks!

I will warn you ahead of time though...

the controls are odd... you can get used to them, but they're awkward for the first few days.

you will go batshit insane from realizing there are over 70 kinds of crabs to fight in the game, that look the same, just different mesh and name above the head. Japanese f'ing hate crabs.

My experience was from that of "classic FFXI" from release to about 6 months after... so they may have dumbed it down a lot like they did with EQ over time... I do not know, but I can honestly say that in hindsight, Everquest trained me for the burden ahead to be able to endure FFXI to the point I said "Wow, and I thought EQ was bad." FFXI was fun, but it requires/required a dedicated player with the time to do so.

Don't forget to have fun with the language translator too... damn funny stuff you can make. "My Wife NOTORIOUS MONSTER!"

Originally posted by Aladyleyna

I don't know about the most challenging MMO as a whole, since I'm still relatively new to the genre, but I have to say that out of all the games I've played, EVE is probably the most challenging. I've been playing for about 16 days already (just recently suscribed to it) and at the moment, I'm still pretty much lost at it. The amount of information you have at the get go is extremely complicated, not to mention the types of ships and equipment and weapons and so on... I get scared just looking at the market.

The best thing about difficult games such as EVE though, is that when you finally figure something out, it is an extremely gratifying feeling.

If you laugh, you know it's because it's true...

Originally posted by heremypet

Because I'm willing to bet that anything even halfway worth mentioning is either 2D, Korean cash shop grinder, or over 10 years old.  And by challenging, I mean it is difficult just to keep from losing progress, much less progress at all, where players without a certain level of skill, are just going to wind up getting frustrated and quit, and end-game is just not a part of the games vocabulary, at least not for a long time.

So which is it?  Because when I really think on it, the closest thing I can come up with is D2 in permadeath mode, which isn't even a MMO to begin with.  

I always figured that there would be a truly epic MMO released at some point, where world bosses remain undefeated for years before the players finally come up with some crazy tactic and manage to kill them, and totally opposite from what is normal now, where you can reach your progression cap in a matter of weeks.  I always figured that at some point a blow your freaking mind MMO would come out where players would be at it for years and still never hit any cap, where there is no such thing as end game for well into the worlds life, and where you can always have something to aim towards.

Real Life is pretty epic, and awefully challenging at times as well.

I'd have to add the Eve vote. It's definitely the most challenging MMO I've played.

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by heremypet

Because I'm willing to bet that anything even halfway worth mentioning is either 2D, Korean cash shop grinder, or over 10 years old.  And by challenging, I mean it is difficult just to keep from losing progress, much less progress at all, where players without a certain level of skill, are just going to wind up getting frustrated and quit, and end-game is just not a part of the games vocabulary, at least not for a long time.

So which is it?  Because when I really think on it, the closest thing I can come up with is D2 in permadeath mode, which isn't even a MMO to begin with.  

I always figured that there would be a truly epic MMO released at some point, where world bosses remain undefeated for years before the players finally come up with some crazy tactic and manage to kill them, and totally opposite from what is normal now, where you can reach your progression cap in a matter of weeks.  I always figured that at some point a blow your freaking mind MMO would come out where players would be at it for years and still never hit any cap, where there is no such thing as end game for well into the worlds life, and where you can always have something to aim towards.

 

Real Life is pretty epic, and awefully challenging at times as well.

... says the WoW gamer ;P

Originally posted by Palebane

 

Real Life is pretty epic, and awefully challenging at times as well.

Yea, I get excellent framerate in RL, but the community stinks and the storyline is pointless.

Originally posted by heremypet

Because I'm willing to bet that anything even halfway worth mentioning is either 2D, Korean cash shop grinder, or over 10 years old.  And by challenging, I mean it is difficult just to keep from losing progress, much less progress at all, where players without a certain level of skill, are just going to wind up getting frustrated and quit, and end-game is just not a part of the games vocabulary, at least not for a long time.

So which is it?  Because when I really think on it, the closest thing I can come up with is D2 in permadeath mode, which isn't even a MMO to begin with.  

I always figured that there would be a truly epic MMO released at some point, where world bosses remain undefeated for years before the players finally come up with some crazy tactic and manage to kill them, and totally opposite from what is normal now, where you can reach your progression cap in a matter of weeks.  I always figured that at some point a blow your freaking mind MMO would come out where players would be at it for years and still never hit any cap, where there is no such thing as end game for well into the worlds life, and where you can always have something to aim towards.

What a pipe dream. It wont happen for a million years for a very simple business reality. Content is expensive and if you make it too difficult so no one see it, it is a waste.

The wow approach is the right one. Produce content fast (in months time) and have players consume it in between releases.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by heremypet

Because I'm willing to bet that anything even halfway worth mentioning is either 2D, Korean cash shop grinder, or over 10 years old.  And by challenging, I mean it is difficult just to keep from losing progress, much less progress at all, where players without a certain level of skill, are just going to wind up getting frustrated and quit, and end-game is just not a part of the games vocabulary, at least not for a long time.

So which is it?  Because when I really think on it, the closest thing I can come up with is D2 in permadeath mode, which isn't even a MMO to begin with.  

I always figured that there would be a truly epic MMO released at some point, where world bosses remain undefeated for years before the players finally come up with some crazy tactic and manage to kill them, and totally opposite from what is normal now, where you can reach your progression cap in a matter of weeks.  I always figured that at some point a blow your freaking mind MMO would come out where players would be at it for years and still never hit any cap, where there is no such thing as end game for well into the worlds life, and where you can always have something to aim towards.

 

What a pipe dream. It wont happen for a million years for a very simple business reality. Content is expensive and if you make it too difficult so no one see it, it is a waste.

The wow approach is the right one. Produce content fast (in months time) and have players consume it in between releases.

Firstly there is a truly epic MMO out there that is hard to progress with, and there are world events/bosses that take an entire servers worth of players/guilds to take down.  It's called EverQuest. 
 

Secondly, that WoW approach that you are talking about?  It isn't a Wow approach at all, it has been done to death by SOE in the form of the EverQuest franchise long before WoW was even thought of as a potential MMO.

How do I know I'm right? Because some of the same folks that worked on WoW whether it was server technology, art, or gameplay got their start in the making of EverQuest.  Go visit the folks at Trion and see how many MMO's they've had their collective hands in at one point or another.

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Palebane

 

Real Life is pretty epic, and awefully challenging at times as well.

 

Yea, I get excellent framerate in RL, but the community stinks and the storyline is pointless.

True. And you don't get bind on pick up, but gear replacement and repair costs are way to high.

Plus, there's a hell of  a grind.

So gear wears out, then you have to grind to fix it. Bleh!

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by heremypet

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Originally posted by Palebane
 
Real Life is pretty epic, and awefully challenging at times as well.

---

 
Yea, I get excellent framerate in RL, but the community stinks and the storyline is pointless.

---

 
True. And you don't get bind on pick up, but gear replacement and repair costs are way to high.
Plus, there's a hell of  a grind.
So gear wears out, then you have to grind to fix it. Bleh!

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Worst of all, RMT is only way to get anything.

Originally posted by ChrisMattern

 

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by heremypet

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Originally posted by Palebane
 
Real Life is pretty epic, and awefully challenging at times as well.

---

 
Yea, I get excellent framerate in RL, but the community stinks and the storyline is pointless.

---

 
True. And you don't get bind on pick up, but gear replacement and repair costs are way to high.
Plus, there's a hell of  a grind.
So gear wears out, then you have to grind to fix it. Bleh!

---

 

Worst of all, RMT is only way to get anything.

and to think that the Sims is one of the best all time selling IP's in existence.

If you laugh, you know it's because it's true...

Heh, that explains why I snigger everytime I see that picture.

I wish there was one out there. So many games are grindy now and that is enough of a challenge to stay interested long enough to get through the grind.

Originally posted by heremypet

Because I'm willing to bet that anything even halfway worth mentioning is either 2D, Korean cash shop grinder, or over 10 years old.  And by challenging, I mean it is difficult just to keep from losing progress, much less progress at all, where players without a certain level of skill, are just going to wind up getting frustrated and quit, and end-game is just not a part of the games vocabulary, at least not for a long time.

So which is it?  Because when I really think on it, the closest thing I can come up with is D2 in permadeath mode, which isn't even a MMO to begin with.  

I always figured that there would be a truly epic MMO released at some point, where world bosses remain undefeated for years before the players finally come up with some crazy tactic and manage to kill them, and totally opposite from what is normal now, where you can reach your progression cap in a matter of weeks.  I always figured that at some point a blow your freaking mind MMO would come out where players would be at it for years and still never hit any cap, where there is no such thing as end game for well into the worlds life, and where you can always have something to aim towards.

The problem I have addressing your topic is that I do not consider your description of the content you want to be particularly 'challenging'.  That's probably because I do not consider 'endurance challenges'  in video games to be 'real challenges'. 

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Palebane

 

Real Life is pretty epic, and awefully challenging at times as well.

 

Yea, I get excellent framerate in RL, but the community stinks and the storyline is pointless.

Uhm......

Is there some feature on MMORPG where you can vote for your all time favorite post, response, etc?  THIS ^^^^^ is full of WIN.

I would have to say that DarkFall has been generally most challenging MMO I have played due to full loot and PVP focus. Especially after the launch when your ingame life was truly cheap. Now if they would only polish the game slightly, add meaningful quests and fix the balance, etc. and get more players it would be a great game overall. Hope the new expansion does all that...

On rules, equipment and tactics point of view I would say EVE is the most challenging MMO game around. WW II Online is a good contender in this category too if you can count it as being a MMO.

I had high hopes for Fallen Earth, but I find it a bit too fluffy and easy even at the beginning.

Originally posted by Torik

 

The problem I have addressing your topic is that I do not consider your description of the content you want to be particularly 'challenging'.  That's probably because I do not consider 'endurance challenges'  in video games to be 'real challenges'. 

Try not to look at it in the context of current MMOs.  By challenging, I'm not talking about it simply taking a long time, and I've no interest in mindlessly grinding for months on end.  But I would enjoy a game world requiring more brain activity than being in a coma, while lasting longer than 2 weeks.  I don't want to get all the way to end-game with no effort at all, I want the game to stop me like it's saying "You can't go any further", so I can come up with a creative way of saying "bullshit", not just mindlessly quest and grind like a zombie until end-game, I don't even want to see the end-game.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Palebane

 

Real Life is pretty epic, and awefully challenging at times as well.

 

Yea, I get excellent framerate in RL, but the community stinks and the storyline is pointless.

 

True. And you don't get bind on pick up, but gear replacement and repair costs are way to high.

Plus, there's a hell of  a grind.

So gear wears out, then you have to grind to fix it. Bleh!

And permadeath, that part really sucks too. 

have you looked at Ryzom? It is skill based, and it would take a very long time to max all the skills.

The world is very immersive too, and you can't just walk around blindly. You need to be aware of the predators, where they hunt, when they sleep, etc.

The crafting is the best in any game; there are no set recipes, you have to learn how to make stuff yourself. Everyone has their own special recipes that they have worked out.

Resource gathering is also the best in any game; stuff isn't just lying around to be picked up. You have to go prospecting (which is a trainable skill) for what you need, and once you find it, you can't just dig it up. Digging is dangerous, and will probably kill you if you don't have the skills and pay attention.

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Torik

 

The problem I have addressing your topic is that I do not consider your description of the content you want to be particularly 'challenging'.  That's probably because I do not consider 'endurance challenges'  in video games to be 'real challenges'. 

 

Try not to look at it in the context of current MMOs.  By challenging, I'm not talking about it simply taking a long time, and I've no interest in mindlessly grinding for months on end.  But I would enjoy a game world requiring more brain activity than being in a coma, while lasting longer than 2 weeks.  I don't want to get all the way to end-game with no effort at all, I want the game to stop me like it's saying "You can't go any further", so I can come up with a creative way of saying "bullshit", not just mindlessly quest and grind like a zombie until end-game, I don't even want to see the end-game.

Fair enough.

With all the discussions on this forum going over the same issues over and over, it often becomes hard to read what exactly a poster is trying to convey.  My reading of your OP gave me a picture that you actually wanted things to take a long time and consist of more grinding.  If that was not your intention then I appologize.

I am strong supporter of an 'achievement-based' progression where levels are not based on how much XP you gain but on what you have accomplished.  So in order to progress you would have to beat a challenge.  The tricky part is to design a system like this in a way that will not pigeon-hole players into roles and content that they do not find fun. 

Aion is nothing but mindless repetitiveness...that does not in any way shape or form make it difficult.

FFXI and EVE on the otherhard have very challenging gameplay and I suggest looking into those games if you are looking for a challenge.

Originally posted by ChrisMattern

 

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by heremypet

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Originally posted by Palebane
 
Real Life is pretty epic, and awefully challenging at times as well.

---

 
Yea, I get excellent framerate in RL, but the community stinks and the storyline is pointless.

---

 
True. And you don't get bind on pick up, but gear replacement and repair costs are way to high.
Plus, there's a hell of  a grind.
So gear wears out, then you have to grind to fix it. Bleh!

---

 

Worst of all, RMT is only way to get anything.

A question on the epic new game how do you reoll? 

 EVE is the only mmo I've ever tried that itimidated me and made my brain hurt from it's complexity and vastness.  Regrettably I never got in on the ground floor and each time I play the demos I like it but fear it's too late.

The new Dust 514 game coming up makes it look even more challenging.

EVE, find a good corp in 0.0 and it helps to have a RL friend to play with because you really need someone you can trust :)

Hello Kitty online.