---

Originally posted by SonofSeth
Of course anyone has the right to post here, even someone who has never played the game has the right to post about any subject here, but you have to admit that it gives you a weaker platform if you are talking from second or third hand experience. Someone who quit pre BC talking about how the changes in Lich King have affected the gameplay is on pretty shaky ground to start with don't you think???
Zorn is Zorn and can be a little over zealous in defending the game he likes, but as you have already pointed out yourself he has every right to do so and at least he does take the time to research an answer or speaks from direct experience when doing so.

---

Yes, these are my words and i completely stand by them, but this still doesn't mean a thing unless you tell me where my comments have fallen down??

Please take all the time in the world to trawl through every one of my previous posts, it is an interesting read for anyone in my personal opinion, but still begs the question, do you have a point???

I didn't find brail awesom, just annoying. Plants vs zombies - now that was awesom:) (sorry to derail the thread, I'm naughty, spank me good)

MMORPG players are rats in the wheel... you didn't know that? What I don't think you realize is that the sense of "virtual achievement" is actually key (it also feed the e-peen of many people, but that's another issue altogether).

It isn't so different from being a martial artist who has trained their body and technique for years, and wins a sparring match. This is an achievement. Winning 50 matches is an achievement. Sure, I don't get a pop-up letting me know I now have a new title, and I don't earn any shiny reward (unless I win the entire tourney), but it all triggers the same sense of "joy" in one's brain.

Of course, the fact that it is all virtual, does nothing for your life outside of the game, and extended gaming tends to lead to obesity should all be ignored for the sake of this discussion.

Originally posted by Scottc

 

---

"That kind of reward system is very easily turned into a Pavlovian or Skinnerian scheme," he says. "It's considered best practice: schedule rewards for your player so that they don't get bored and give up on your game. That's actually exploitation."

 

Developers should provide activities that interest players "rather than stringing them along with little pieces of candy so that they'll suffer through terrible game play, but keep playing because they gain levels or new items", he says.

"I think a lot of modern game design is actually unethical, especially massively multiplayer games like World of Warcraft, because they are predicated on player exploitation," Mr Blow says.

---

Thoughts on this? Do you think WoW is unfun? Is the only enjoyable part really getting a nice item and leveling up? Everything inbetween is terrible so you socialize with friends in ventrilo to lessen the suffering? Is this guy just an elitist douche? I quite liked Braid.

 

I just wonder how you are bringing up this quote from late 2006 to today AFTER he had all the issues with Braid and its pricing.  These are the words of someone who was idealistic back then.  I wonder what his current thoughts are.

---

Originally posted by red_cruiser
He's right in a sense. People who develop these games probably would call it a "sense of accomplishment" as opposed to "exploitation".  Without the sense of investment and character development and the ability to easily connect with friends from around the world, the standard MMO fare isn't all that good, and games like CO that cut back on the sense of accomplishment and the challenging team content  in favor of a more modernized action style gameplay hasn't exactly captured the interest of the people.  The end effect is that innovation has sure seemed stifled.  I guess it would be fair to say that after putting 15 days of /played into a character, the consumer wants new reasons to continue playing the game.

---

Yes, i see where you are going there and yes i agree with what you are saying to a degree. I have to admit that without the social element of WoW i would no doubt have left a long time ago as i am not a major raider/dungeon crawler as much as i was in Vanilla. But i also re-enforce what i said above in that it is also up to the gamer themselves to put something in to the game and not rely on being spoonfed content to keep their interest peaked.

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by tro44_1

Who gives a Shit what He/She thinks? That person sounds just like the many WoW haters on this site. They can never see past the hatred. To blinded by Anit-Fanboyism, to ever see the good things about WoW.

Jonathan Blow is the independent game developer who created the game Braid which is an amazing game and has sold many copies.  He's exactly the kind of person people should listen to when he speaks.

 

We should listen when he speaks? I have played Braid it is ok. In my opinion far from amazing very far. I would not put it like tro44_1 did but I agree who cares what this guy thinks. Blow and you scottc miss the whole point of WOW and persistant world mmos. Most people playing WOW miss the point as well.
 

Blow is so far off base and does not understand mmos. Just because he made a nice little game means nothing to me as an mmo player. You see you and Blow play WOW like Braid a game that you think you need to win. You play WOW like a console side scroller. I could careless about rewards in mmos. Sure I work for some cool stuff in WOW. However the enjoyment is in being in the living dynamic 3 dimentional world. The joy is in exploring and reading the lore and being part of it. You see I have just as much fun in WOW with my level 4 warrior with nothing for rewards as I do with me level 80 hunter with great gear, mounts, and pets.

I do not rush to end game, could careless. It is all about the journey and WOW offers a fun journey. I am an older gamer and love the amazing worlds these mmos developers create for me to explore. We need more older developers creating mmos. Younger gamers are to reward based. To many of them play WOW as a game only and never allow thenselves to be drawn into the world. For many it is just a game. They do not use their imaginations they play a game. A good mmo is so much more then that and WOW is so much more then Blow understands.  Stop playing WOW as a game but try playing it as a fantasy world simulator then you might really find why WOW and other good mmos are so much more then a game to win rewards.

I thought it was fairly obvious MMO's lacked in fun and had to compensate with digital carrots on sticks. I bet you 10 internet dollars that most people playing MMO's are doing it for the social factor and not the gameplay.

Since gameplay in MMO's are around 10-15 years behind regular games and not fun at all.

 That's about what I think about many MMORPGs today. They lack fun gameplay but instead make it fun by giving rewards. This really isn't anything new, many people (include experts in psychiatric fields) have already said this. It is true. There are few MMORPGs that don't do this, I would say EVE Online is probably the only one that comes to head and I'm sure it does it too if you look at it closer.

I'm not saying anything bad about WoW, some of my favorite MMOs do it too. Fallen Earth for example. I absolutely love the game, and I think the gameplay itself is amazing, but it is stringing you along with little rewards.

Eccton, I understand what your saying and I approach MMOs with much the same mindset. Although, you can't really argue that, even if it doesn't affect you, they are laying a little trail of candy. Some people don't follow that trail and have fun. Others, mostly those that play it the most time, do. Personally, when I played WoW, I didn't follow that trail. I went out and explored and did a lot of Battlegrounds and had absolutely no fun. I went back and followed the trail, questing to level and get new gear and skills, and had no fun. For me WoW's gameplay is monotonous, there are more people that think the why I do and in the end, that's what's helping the genre evolve. People who don't like the trail like you and me. It's leading to games with more story (LOTRO had a good little storyline, SW:TOR is taking it to the next level), more social interaction (EVE is really tackling this with one server and now a social interaction thing called New Eden built in), and combat systems that aren't all the same (Aion, Champions Online, and Fallen Earth for instance, each have very different combat systems). 

Originally posted by Zzulu

I thought it was fairly obvious MMO's lacked in fun and had to compensate with digital carrots on sticks. I bet you 10 internet dollars that most people playing MMO's are doing it for the social factor and not the gameplay.

 

I agree with this, though it might not be a large majority. Some people enjoy grinding.

The development of your characters leads one to be reluctant to drop them in order to switch to a new game. Don't anyone think for a second that devs aren't aware of that and exploit it.

If you don't doubt their motives, ask yourselves this: If MMOs only got income from the original box sale, how much effort and love would the devs put into the game after release?

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Zzulu

I thought it was fairly obvious MMO's lacked in fun and had to compensate with digital carrots on sticks. I bet you 10 internet dollars that most people playing MMO's are doing it for the social factor and not the gameplay.

 

I agree with this, though it might not be a large majority. Some people enjoy grinding.

The development of your characters leads one to be reluctant to drop them in order to switch to a new game. Don't anyone think for a second that devs aren't aware of that and exploit it.

If you don't doubt their motives, ask yourselves this: If MMOs only got income from the original box sale, how much effort and love would the devs put into the game after release?

This is why non-subscription based games never have patches. I mean ever.

Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I played braid for a bit because of the reviews. It's an addictive puzzle game that happens to be a platformer. Re-read that for a moment. It's an addictive puzzle game.... A game that I can pick up for 30 minutes or so and put the controller down when I'm bored.

 

As a platformer, it's not anything special. Changing colors and backgrounds moving through time isn't anything special. The only one thing that I thought "Hey, that's original" is the ability to travel through time and space simulateously. It's a very good game and well desevered ratings - but it's a completely different genre of game and his opinion should be taken with a grain of salt when looking at any other gaming genre. It's like the owner of a McDonald's giving his opinion about a Jiffy Lube and saying that an oil change should have a better experience. I mean, they are both have drive up service right?

 

Anyway, yes - a lot of things are fed to players on a piece meal basis. That's the entire purpose of an MMO. After someone plays braid and beats it, chances are its going to be "thrown away" (sold to GameStop, etc.). An MMO is a long term investment for both the maker and the player. Blizzard has been adding several things to the game over time. In addition they do have a nice ladder scheme. As they add more rungs on the top, they lower the bottom ones so that casual players can access new content as well. Leveling, to me, is not much fun - but many of these new instances are whats fun. I don't care about the rewards that I get at the end.

I'm just wondering, how fun are those instances after you've done them 30 or 40 times, and have to keep doing them to get the items you need to move on to the next instance?  Surely it gets frustrating at some point, you can only complete the same content so many times before it gets boring.  I'm sure at some point the only thing that drives you is the fact that you need those items to move on to the next raid boss.

Originally posted by eccoton

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by tro44_1

Who gives a Shit what He/She thinks? That person sounds just like the many WoW haters on this site. They can never see past the hatred. To blinded by Anit-Fanboyism, to ever see the good things about WoW.

Jonathan Blow is the independent game developer who created the game Braid which is an amazing game and has sold many copies.  He's exactly the kind of person people should listen to when he speaks.

 

We should listen when he speaks? I have played Braid it is ok. In my opinion far from amazing very far. I would not put it like tro44_1 did but I agree who cares what this guy thinks. Blow and you scottc miss the whole point of WOW and persistant world mmos. Most people playing WOW miss the point as well.
 

Blow is so far off base and does not understand mmos. Just because he made a nice little game means nothing to me as an mmo player. You see you and Blow play WOW like Braid a game that you think you need to win. You play WOW like a console side scroller. I could careless about rewards in mmos. Sure I work for some cool stuff in WOW. However the enjoyment is in being in the living dynamic 3 dimentional world. The joy is in exploring and reading the lore and being part of it. You see I have just as much fun in WOW with my level 4 warrior with nothing for rewards as I do with me level 80 hunter with great gear, mounts, and pets.

I do not rush to end game, could careless. It is all about the journey and WOW offers a fun journey. I am an older gamer and love the amazing worlds these mmos developers create for me to explore. We need more older developers creating mmos. Younger gamers are to reward based. To many of them play WOW as a game only and never allow thenselves to be drawn into the world. For many it is just a game. They do not use their imaginations they play a game. A good mmo is so much more then that and WOW is so much more then Blow understands.  Stop playing WOW as a game but try playing it as a fantasy world simulator then you might really find why WOW and other good mmos are so much more then a game to win rewards.

 

 

I feel a bit bad for you if you find the journey of WoW to be fun.  I've played games in the past with much more variety, many more choices, an epic story unfolding actively in the game world that involved the players in it.  If you like the journey why are you playing WoW?  Might as well play a singleplayer game.

name your games

Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I played braid for a bit because of the reviews. It's an addictive puzzle game that happens to be a platformer. Re-read that for a moment. It's an addictive puzzle game.... A game that I can pick up for 30 minutes or so and put the controller down when I'm bored.

 

As a platformer, it's not anything special. Changing colors and backgrounds moving through time isn't anything special. The only one thing that I thought "Hey, that's original" is the ability to travel through time and space simulateously. It's a very good game and well desevered ratings - but it's a completely different genre of game and his opinion should be taken with a grain of salt when looking at any other gaming genre. It's like the owner of a McDonald's giving his opinion about a Jiffy Lube and saying that an oil change should have a better experience. I mean, they are both have drive up service right?

 

Anyway, yes - a lot of things are fed to players on a piece meal basis. That's the entire purpose of an MMO. After someone plays braid and beats it, chances are its going to be "thrown away" (sold to GameStop, etc.). An MMO is a long term investment for both the maker and the player. Blizzard has been adding several things to the game over time. In addition they do have a nice ladder scheme. As they add more rungs on the top, they lower the bottom ones so that casual players can access new content as well. Leveling, to me, is not much fun - but many of these new instances are whats fun. I don't care about the rewards that I get at the end.

Nice lie post.

Braid is XBLA, and can not be sold to GameStop.

Originally posted by _Jord_

Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I played braid for a bit because of the reviews. It's an addictive puzzle game that happens to be a platformer. Re-read that for a moment. It's an addictive puzzle game.... A game that I can pick up for 30 minutes or so and put the controller down when I'm bored.

 

As a platformer, it's not anything special. Changing colors and backgrounds moving through time isn't anything special. The only one thing that I thought "Hey, that's original" is the ability to travel through time and space simulateously. It's a very good game and well desevered ratings - but it's a completely different genre of game and his opinion should be taken with a grain of salt when looking at any other gaming genre. It's like the owner of a McDonald's giving his opinion about a Jiffy Lube and saying that an oil change should have a better experience. I mean, they are both have drive up service right?

 

Anyway, yes - a lot of things are fed to players on a piece meal basis. That's the entire purpose of an MMO. After someone plays braid and beats it, chances are its going to be "thrown away" (sold to GameStop, etc.). An MMO is a long term investment for both the maker and the player. Blizzard has been adding several things to the game over time. In addition they do have a nice ladder scheme. As they add more rungs on the top, they lower the bottom ones so that casual players can access new content as well. Leveling, to me, is not much fun - but many of these new instances are whats fun. I don't care about the rewards that I get at the end.

 

Nice lie post.

Braid is XBLA, and can not be sold to GameStop.

It's also available on steam, also gamestop sells the boxed version: http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=75517

Originally posted by Horusra

name your games

I'll admit that I've only played one like it.  Asheron's Call.  It's obviously not the same any longer though, as the player base is maybe around 2000 strong, they can't afford to do the huge cool story stuff any longer, and they've simply gotten lazy and implemented a much greater dependency on items and included a massive time sink in obtaining the items you need to further yourself in the past few years.   I'm sure there might be others out there like it, although I've had no luck in finding such a game.

I'm not saying the game was flawless, or the end all MMORPG, but it certainly came close.  Quests weren't required to level up, and as a result, they tended to be much more interesting, with dungeons that were filled with traps, books filled with lore, the overall design of a given dungeon would give you information about what you might find in it, there were puzzles where you would be required to think to progress.  Special quest items were available at the end of some dungeons which continued to be useful regardless of your level.  But you could also just go out and kill tons of monsters, this could be boring as you approached higher levels, but the beauty of it was that you could find useful items on low level clone monsters, like weapons that actually dealt decent damage.  You could get involved in the story, there was something new every month, one month huge spires attacked cities with shadows coming out of them, the player was given the choice to repel them.   There was no end game, the game was a journey filled with many different choices, it catered more to players who liked to choose what they would like to do rather than be told.  Basically the game was pretty superior to most of what I've played merely because of the attention to detail, everything had a place, an explanation, there was depth, nothing felt half assed.  The content consisted of more than merely endless boss monsters.  The regular monsters were not worthless creatures for the simple purpose of slowing you down, but rather something that provided you with a reasonable amount of experience and sometimes very nice items.

I'll leave with an excellent read on why storytelling in Asheron's Call surpassed any other MMORPG ever created: www.destructoid.com/blogs/Azure

I probably sound like a fanboy, if anyone cares for some criticism on the game I talked about above, let me know, and I'll tear it to shreds, of course that's possible with most games.  I could write paragraph upon paragraph of why it was one of the greatest MMORPGs of all time, moreso likely than anyone could do with most modern MMORPGs.  This is not nostalgia, I had played Meridian 59 before that, and Ultima Online.

Originally posted by Scottc

I feel a bit bad for you if you find the journey of WoW to be fun.  I've played games in the past with much more variety, many more choices, an epic story unfolding actively in the game world that involved the players in it.  If you like the journey why are you playing WoW?  Might as well play a singleplayer game.

Oh thank you so much Scottc your concern for me is so nice. So what games are in your vast range of experience? I have no real experience in mmos so maybe you can help me find a good game. We all know I play WOW. I guess being in mmos since 1996 with Meridain 59 is not really experience either is playing, Ultima, Eve, SWG, WAR, Saga of Ryzom, EQ2, Lineage II, Simsonline, WW II, Aion, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, Second Life, Entrpia Universe, ROSE, Guild Wars, Free Realms, Silkroads, CoH/CoV, Champions Online, DAOC, D&D Online, Perfect World, LOTRO,  and a few more. You know what? I actually liked most of them. I am sure many on this listen will make you feel bad for me to. Maybe you could name that great epic game you play? Oh Aheron's call, Ultima, Meridian 59. Played them all good games just like WOW is a good game. Do you actually play anything now or just talk about them like some expert?

You see Scottc I actually play and follow mmos not come here and spout crap about things I really know nothing about. I am so deluded that I do not really realize I like WOW. So your feeling bad for me is so wonderful. Actually Scottc I could give a crap about what you feel about my playing WOW.  To answer your question I play WOW because I like it.

Originally posted by Scottc
<Mod Edit>

Oh you are good. Got me with that one. Genius!

Originally posted by eccoton

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by eccoton

Originally posted by Scottc

I feel a bit bad for you if you find the journey of WoW to be fun.  I've played games in the past with much more variety, many more choices, an epic story unfolding actively in the game world that involved the players in it.  If you like the journey why are you playing WoW?  Might as well play a singleplayer game.

 

Oh thank you so much Scottc your concern for me is so nice. So what games are in your vast range of experience? I have no real experience in mmos so maybe you can help me find a good game. We all know I play WOW. I guess being in mmos since 1996 with Meridain 59 is not really experience neither is playing, Ultima, Eve, SWG, WAR, Saga of Ryzom, EQ2, Lineage II, Simsonline, WW II, Aion, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, Second Life, Entrpia Universe, ROSE, Guild Wars, Free Realms, Silkroads, CoH/CoV, Champions Online, DAOC, D&D Online, Perfect World, LOTRO,  and a few more. You know what? I actually liked most of them. I am sure many on this listen will make you feel bad for me to. Maybe you could name that great epic game you play?

You see Scottc I actually play and follow mmos not come here and spout crap about things I really know nothing about. I am so deluded that I do not really realize I like WOW. So your feeling bad for me is so wonderful. Actually Scottc I could give a crap about what you feel about my playing WOW.  To answer your question I play WOW because I like it.

I don't think anyone as stupid as you would've been able to figure out a computer in 1996.  I base this entirely on your misjudgement of my post as an insult and the fact that you type like someone who survived fetal alcohol syndrome.

If you had actually played Asheron's Call, I don't think you'd be posting on a World of Warcraft forum as a fan who actually enjoyed it.  Oh wait... back to that fetal alcohol syndrome point....

 

Oh you are good. Got me with that one. Genius!

I'm amazed, you can type something without sounding like a dyslexic child.  I guess it has to do with the fact that it's only 2 sentences though.  I understand that some peoples brains have been heavily damaged through extreme drug use and/or fetal alcohol syndrome as I mentioned earlier and as such are incapable of handling critical thinking.

Originally posted by eccoton

 

<Mod Edit>

Eccoton why are you even replying to this guy? I've read quite a few of your post in the time I spent here.  You are better then that.  Don't play his game, just ignore him.  Remember the saying. "It is pointless to argue with an idiot.  He'll just drag you down to his level, and beat you with experience."

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by tro44_1

Who gives a Shit what He/She thinks? That person sounds just like the many WoW haters on this site. They can never see past the hatred. To blinded by Anit-Fanboyism, to ever see the good things about WoW.

Jonathan Blow is the independent game developer who created the game Braid which is an amazing game and has sold many copies.  He's exactly the kind of person people should listen to when he speaks.

 

Bah, the guy spent $200,000 making the game, that isn't exactly screaming "indie" to me.

Its Prince of Persia meets Mario, and not everything he's done is innovative, because there are games I can play that do the same thing on Newgrounds.

Besides, the whole part of an MMO is that its a social environment, you are supposed to talk and group up, but I guess the lot of "single" minded MMO players hate that. I play because I do have fun, I raid when I want and can, I hang around and just talk, or do somethin else, not because I'm pressured or feel like I need to.

Originally posted by Roin 

Eccoton why are you even replying to this guy? I've read quite a few of your post in the time I spent here.  You are better then that.  Don't play his game, just ignore him.  Remember the saying. "It is pointless to argue with an idiot.  He'll just drag you down to his level, and beat you with experience."

I my years here sometime I forget. Thank you for reminding me.
 

Originally posted by Cursedsei

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by tro44_1

Who gives a Shit what He/She thinks? That person sounds just like the many WoW haters on this site. They can never see past the hatred. To blinded by Anit-Fanboyism, to ever see the good things about WoW.

Jonathan Blow is the independent game developer who created the game Braid which is an amazing game and has sold many copies.  He's exactly the kind of person people should listen to when he speaks.

 

 

Bah, the guy spent $200,000 making the game, that isn't exactly screaming "indie" to me.

 

Its Prince of Persia meets Mario, and not everything he's done is innovative, because there are games I can play that do the same thing on Newgrounds.

 

Besides, the whole part of an MMO is that its a social environment, you are supposed to talk and group up, but I guess the lot of "single" minded MMO players hate that. I play because I do have fun, I raid when I want and can, I hang around and just talk, or do somethin else, not because I'm pressured or feel like I need to.

He notes that most of those were living expenses.

Braid gets far too much credit.  Its a very simple platformer with some time shifting puzzle elements.  And its story is existential drivel...like people who find meaning in a white painting with a black dot in the middle.  It makes no sense because no one can really explain what the heck is going on.  Thats not good writing.  Its writing that makes no sense.  The fact he expected his "story" to effect people deeply is a joke.  If that game effected you at all, you need help=) 

The guy made an little indy game with NO REPLAY VALUE.  MMOs are all about replay value.  Blow blew his best idea in the  first level with the puzzle you use as a platform.  After that, nothing else really made me think  "cool".    Most of the puzzles were more annoying then clever.  I paid $9.99 and it was barely worth that.  But it was just an indie.  I never expect much from them, not that you should.

Originally posted by Josher

Braid gets far too much credit.  Its a very simple platformer with some time shifting puzzle elements.  And its story is existential drivel...like people who find meaning in a white painting with a black dot in the middle.  It makes no sense because no one can really explain what the heck is going on.  Thats not good writing.  Its writing that makes no sense.  The fact he expected his "story" to effect people deeply is a joke.  If that game effected you at all, you need help=) 

The guy made an little indy game with NO REPLAY VALUE.  MMOs are all about replay value.  Blow blew his best idea in the  first level with the puzzle you use as a platform.  After that, nothing else really made me think  "cool".    Most of the puzzles were more annoying then clever.  I paid $9.99 and it was barely worth that.  But it was just an indie.  I never expect much from them, not that you should.

The story is like that so you can attempt to interpret it.  It's almost a meta-game trying to figure it out, many people have different ideas about what it means.  Is something wrong with leaving something up to the players to figure out?  It's a puzzle game and the story itself is a sort of puzzle.

Also, the replay value in World of Warcraft is the same as if Braid required you to gain an item that dropped 1% of the time at the end of the level in order to advance to the next one.  Do you really consider that to be actual replay value being forced to repeat the same content endlessly just so the company that created it cares more about making 15 extra dollars a month than providing you with a compelling experience and keeping you from getting bored?  If WoW had real replay value there would be many different variables that came into play.