Originally posted by Murashu

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Raiding involves a preset group of people meeting at a prearranged time, to progress through specific content.

It has none of the randomness that are assossiated with PUG's. (raiding has a different set of issues).

Unless you are PUG Raiding! Havent had fun doing that since EQ though.

I've joined one or two of those in EQII, but they are generally single target and take less than 30 minutes.

Raiding is easier, you can mess up and not get noticed often.  You can have multiple bad players and often you still can get the big bad bosses killed.   Raiding gets you the best gear ingame, so it's worth putting up some guild drama for it. 

Grouping, well, you don't get the best gear, 1 person messing up often wipes the group, and you get 1 bad player you often have a difficult time functioning well. 

So overall it's because raiding is just easier and nets you the best rewards.

Originally posted by Mardy

Raiding is easier, you can mess up and not get noticed often.  You can have multiple bad players and often you still can get the big bad bosses killed.   Raiding gets you the best gear ingame, so it's worth putting up some guild drama for it. 

 

Grouping, well, you don't get the best gear, 1 person messing up often wipes the group, and you get 1 bad player you often have a difficult time functioning well. 

 

So overall it's because raiding is just easier and nets you the best rewards.

Not true for all raiding games.  EQ1 you could not have one person mess up and still win on alot of the raids and events.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Mardy

Raiding is easier, you can mess up and not get noticed often.  You can have multiple bad players and often you still can get the big bad bosses killed.   Raiding gets you the best gear ingame, so it's worth putting up some guild drama for it. 

 Grouping, well, you don't get the best gear, 1 person messing up often wipes the group, and you get 1 bad player you often have a difficult time functioning well.

Not true for all raiding games.  EQ1 you could not have one person mess up and still win on alot of the raids and events.

Having my progress stifled by the 2-4 terrible players in a guild is basically the worst part of raiding.  Yes, the answer is to be a jackass and kick them, but the better answer is for games to be about grouping content where you don't have to take so many players that you bring deadweight.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

Never raided. Never will. Too much whining, too many cliques, too disorganized and it is basically like trying to herd cats.  That applies to every MMO I have ever played in the last 5 or 6 years, by the way, not just to WoW.  I got fed up with raids very early on in EQ.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

Never raided. Never will. Too much whining, too many cliques, too disorganized and it is basically like trying to herd cats.  That applies to every MMO I have ever played in the last 5 or 6 years, by the way, not just to WoW.  I got fed up with raids very early on in EQ.

 

I avoid raids as well. Played to 60 in WOW, felt like I actually just reached the end of an MMO and then canceled. I think only 15% of WOW players ever participated in a raid around the time of TBC. Since they lowered it to 5- and 10-man for newer stuff I am guessing that went up, but I am curious by how much.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by illanadan

 Just for you!

 

Gee, I didnt' get you anything. :(

Now I just feel slighted :(

"why do players raid?"

Because people are to simple to realize they are being suckered into paying to run the same crap over and over again.  Because developers devised a great maze for the rats to chase their cheese.

Grouping sucks in mmos if it's forced. Things should just be made to scale these days. Everyone plays different and it's sad they think everyone should play the same or be forced into a situation. I don't like playing with strangers, and I have real life so making friends online is a rare event for me. I definitely won't make enough in a mmo to do most group content and I shouldn't be stuck with the choice to accept that or group with kiddies or idiots who tell people how to play, how to use abilities or whatever. Giving orders to me in general is a bad thing to do in a mmo. Bottom line, just use exploits and hacks to solo. It ruins the game. WoW is so easy to cheat in and so is Aion.  

I've got to walk the baby and change the dogs diapers!

...and eat your cat and let out the tv dinner.

Originally posted by MadBloodDoll

Grouping sucks in mmos if it's forced. Things should just be made to scale these days. Everyone plays different and it's sad they think everyone should play the same or be forced into a situation. I don't like playing with strangers, and I have real life so making friends online is a rare event for me. I definitely won't make enough in a mmo to do most group content and I shouldn't be stuck with the choice to accept that or group with kiddies or idiots who tell people how to play, how to use abilities or whatever. Giving orders to me in general is a bad thing to do in a mmo. Bottom line, just use exploits and hacks to solo. It ruins the game. WoW is so easy to cheat in and so is Aion.  

IMO, scaling sucks. It's an Iwin button.

Originally posted by Venger

"why do players raid?"

Because people are to simple to realize they are being suckered into paying to run the same crap over and over again.  Because developers devised a great maze for the rats to chase their cheese.

That's all MMO gameplay, raiding or not.  Why are you on this site?  Anyway,  raiding can be great fun with good friends not with random idiots.  It's all about taking the effort to build (or seek out) a good guild.

Soloing is the reason the MMORPG genre has stagnated since WoW came out.  Genre was ruined when forced grouping to progress was eliminated.  That is why the communities of MMOs are so vile, there is no sense of community, just me, me, me and the gear I can accumulate or the n00bs I can teabag.

I wish developers would go back to forced grouping to weed out all the trash.  If you don't have or want to spend the time that a true MMO takes to play, go play a single player RPG.  This is what MMOs have become anyway, coop, single-player RPGs.

<< That is why the communities of MMOs are so vile, there is no sense of community, just me, me, me and the gear I canaccumulate or the n00bs I can teabag. >>

I encountered lots of jerks in AC1, EQ1, SB and, briefly, in UO (which I played for about a week)... 

Originally posted by zethcarn

Originally posted by Venger

"why do players raid?"

Because people are to simple to realize they are being suckered into paying to run the same crap over and over again.  Because developers devised a great maze for the rats to chase their cheese.

 

That's all MMO gameplay, raiding or not. 

There's more to MMOs than EQ/WOW-style games, zeth. :( 

Originally posted by Fennris

<< That is why the communities of MMOs are so vile, there is no sense of community, just me, me, me and the gear I canaccumulate or the n00bs I can teabag. >>

I encountered lots of jerks in AC1, EQ1, SB and, briefly, in UO (which I played for about a week)... 

Every online experience has had its share of asshats.  There's just a way higher percentage in the communities now as compared to yesteryear....IMHO.  Grouping has become become the lepresy of gaming.

Two examples I am most familiar with as I came in at the tail end of MMOs that required grouping to advance:

We used to have 30 people hunting groups in early SWG.  Game mechanics changed that.

FFXI pugs were actually pretty fun and accessable early on....Min/Maxxing ruined that.

Then along comes WoW, everything was soloable till end game. 

Nothing mainstream (maybe DDO if you consider it mainstream) has had any necessary grouping mechanics since.  Even the older games have made major changes to make them more solo friendly.  Stagnation has set in and the genre has gone to shit.  Including their respective communities.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?  Gamers do not fall into two distinct groups.  People play whatever they want at that moment of time.  I can solo for a while till I find players I want, then I group with them.  I can solo a few dailies warming up as I heat the dinner, then I join a few group quests while I eat, and then run the H daily instance while I relax after meal, and I raid till I go to bed.  Who am I?  Soloist?  Groupist?  NO I am just myself, playing the game the way I want, and none of your labels fits me.

The argument I am hearing from solo players is you can't make the game as hard to level solo as EQ. That's just not solo friendly enough! Why, I can't stand around LFG all the time. I've got to walk the baby and change the dogs diapers! You expect me to group to make fast progress? That's unheard of! That game will fail! The game MUST be as easy to level as WoW or you're trying to FORCE me to group with you. I won't make xp as fast as a group? Impossible! Don't force me! I won't stand for it. No, no, no! The modern game must let solo just as easy as grouping to level up. Yes, that's the ONLY design that's viable. Nothing else will work. The game MUST be like WoW or it cannot succeed!   Not many body argues like that, you are building up a strawman, by calling them solo player and feeding nonsense to their mouth.

And then you get to the end game and what? you quit? Every single solo player that is on these threads complaining about how they would never play a "forced grouping game" (meaning you dont' level as fast solo as in a group) quits when they get to the end game?  Look at my response to paragraph 1.  I am at the end game of WoW for years, and I do not need to be constantly raiding.  By the way, you talk about end game and then about level and then.  Come on, make up your mind.  If its levelling its one style of gaming, if its end game its another.

What about in RvR when you need a guild or you get your butt handed to you solo? You quit playing that too, and go find another solo friendly game so you can level solo just as fast as grouping?  RvR is one form of gaming activities.  It is not the only thing you do in a game with RvR feature.  In DAoC, we spend a lot of times harvesting and crafting, we need wood to strengthen the keep door, we need to craft gear that are constantly wearing out.  We need money to keep our keep at max level.  Yes we gang up when we go gangbang, we go about our own ways at other times.

 If encouraging grouping is such a horrible game design, destined to fail, why are people raiding at the end of all the mMORPGs?  You really need to repeat your nonsense again and again?

Raiding is even MORE time consuming and forced than grouping in EQ. So how is raiding ok, but encouraging grouping before the end game is such a horrible crime, and destined to fail?  People raid when they feel like, they got time to kill.  That has nothing to do with encouraging grouping.  I play what I want, I group when I want and ignore people like you even though I might want company.  You got the message?

I like a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC myself. I don't really care for the raid, but seems like a lot of players are doing it. You're telling me players dont' mind raiding, but if they can't solo as fast as WoW they won't play the game? Really?

How is playing the end game in WoW, and playing a game like EQ that encourages grouping before the end game, so terribly different?

I'm seriously asking.   No your are not asking, you are deliberately messing up totally unrelated issues and pretend you have a case.  You do not, you are trolling.

 

Your efforts at trolling are tireless.

First, game styles are not exclusive.  A gamer that solos during some hours of his online time, can also choose to group, to raid, to team up for chatting, for powerlevelling, for anything the game mechanism allows.  There is no such thing as a group player or solo player, unless you make a game and have subscribers select to play only solo or groups.  Otherwise, anyone who signed up a normal MMO has at his disposal, the full freedom to join any inviting groups any time and disband at any other time.

So your basic premises are wrong.

Second, levelling and end games are different.  Grouping during levelling and grouping to raid at end game are totally different gameplay.  When you group for the sake of levelling, not just for friendship or helping out, your focus is to get something done along the path to max level.  You might want to group for faster xp, you might want to group just to kill a boss hard to solo, you might want to group just to leech xp or honor points.  You can disband anytime you feel like.  You can go back to solo whenever you feel tired of the group, upset with its members, or run out of common quests to do.  End game raids are another animal, you join for the raid, you do not have the option of soloing the raid content, unless you find a way to bug the boss, or you way outlevelled it.

Encouraging grouping or solo is not really an issue.  The game designer tables out the relative rewards of each options, and the gamers pick what they want.  Some games leave less options for soloability, some more.  You pick the game that gives you the right mix and play it.  Your endless rambling makes you annoying at least.

As for the means to encourage grouping, if it takes the place of sacrificing soloability, it will make the game less appealing to those who want a mix of both game styles.  At the end of the day, fewer people will play, and those who groups will have less people to choose from.  Look at FF.  You can hardly move out of town without a group, and as the pool of players dwindle, the game dies.  You cannot get out without a proper group, you have to go back to town when 1 member of your group disconnects.   Gameplay gets frustratiing and goodbye to the casual community.

From the various posts you write on the same topic, I can only distil one message.  You want people to play in a game in which you can group with them and the game rewards you much much more than those soloing.  That is a wish, good luck finding your game developer.

I am the Pvp King

Great OP post had me smiling, but I was shocked to here some people stop playing when they reach raid level and start a new character, that is not what anyone wants.

How about using WAR’s public quest system and having Public Raids instead? You look on your Raid menu, see a free spot and join it. To be fair to the raid group they should be able to restrict to certain classes if need be.

Idiotic statements on all sides in this thread.... wow.

People raid because thats how you get the best gear. SIMPLE

grouping sucks because people solo for hundreds of hours of gameplay and then without any tutorial are expected to know how to change their playstyle in a group and will not take advice from anyone because they've already played hundreds of hours and are convinced they should know how to play and are doing it the right way already. A failed group just lends them to believe someone else was at fault and so they leave and go back to soloing.

For the people that complain about waiting for a group... In some cases its true but really the problem here is just a couple simple truths. MMO's cater to antisocial narcisist people by nature. Most people who play a game dont want to have to wait before they can start on completing content which is why people get so mad about ques. Lastly most people suck at these games cause they are so mind numingly easy that nobody wants to play with them thus over time creating a natural aversion to grouping withing the comunity.

Originally posted by karat76

 I solo and do 5 man stuff in WoW but I refuse to raid. I'm sure there has to be some decent people who raid but from my experience they have some serious issues and i just hope they are sterile. For instance I was asked to do a Naxx run and I said i can't my kids are up so i am just doing my Argent Tourney dailies. I was told to just lock my kids in their rooms and get my priorities straight. that was the final nail for me. I have no use for the raiding community in wow  and I hope  blizzard offers 5 man versions of all raid dungeons just so people with some sense of what it means to have a life outside of the game can see all the content I don't even give a crap if the decrease the loot in the 5 man version. Some of us don't need to flex our epeen as much.

Yea, this is true, happened to me couple of times and not just in WOW. This is main reason I am not in any guild and I do not do raids.

People and community can be trouble, lot of no life players just spend too much time in game. One of my ex friends was running guild wars dungeons for like 10 hours per day, got obsidian armor and all that expensive stuff, also he always commplained how game has nothing to offer but he never has done any questing at all for example. We argued and stopped being friends when my baby boy had nigtmare and woken up in middle of dungeon run which caused party wipe cause I did not heal (i went to comfort my kid). I was accued of being not serious enough, with words like leave him cry, stupid kids and simmilar. After that I really had couple of more simmilar experiences and reliased that yes, lot of people doing raids and dungeons and whatever at end game are mostlly people without real life obligations, so I turned to soloing, it did miracless, I can enjoy game and have no issues with people who are "hardcore".

Originally posted by Scot

Great OP post had me smiling, but I was shocked to here some people stop playing when they reach raid level and start a new character, that is not what anyone wants.

Of course it is - people are DOING it because they want to.  

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by Scot

Great OP post had me smiling, but I was shocked to here some people stop playing when they reach raid level and start a new character, that is not what anyone wants.

Of course it is - people are DOING it because they want to.  

As someone who does exactly that, of course I'm doing it because I want to.  I find the endgame to be tremendously boring, I have no interest whatsoever in playing it.  The fun is in the journey, the destination is nowhere I want to be.

Originally posted by zethcarn

Originally posted by Venger

"why do players raid?"

Because people are to simple to realize they are being suckered into paying to run the same crap over and over again.  Because developers devised a great maze for the rats to chase their cheese.

 

That's all MMO gameplay, raiding or not.  Why are you on this site?  Anyway,  raiding can be great fun with good friends not with random idiots.  It's all about taking the effort to build (or seek out) a good guild.

Sure game play is repetitive hell life is repetitive but that isn't the point.  When you get to the raid stage of the game you run the same stupid instance for months just to get people equiped enough to move onto the next raid instance, rinse and repeat.  That is stupid and lazy. 

You know developers are laughing their asses off at us.  "Look at those stupid idiots running the same crap over and over again just to get those new shiny items that have a .001% chance to drop.  Hell if everyone was this stupid we could design a handful of dungeons call it a mmo, call it a day and collect the monthly fees."

Now I have raided before probably will raid again so I am calling myself just as stupid as everyone else.

A lot of people choose to group because they enjoy it, but the cold fact of the matter is that end game content in MMO's require grouping to get gear/improve your charecter and so people will group up to do so.  Those are the primary reasons why.