The OP should probably stay on the trial server. Once he hits the live servers he is in for a different story. Population is at an all time low. In fact, in Seradon we have less than 500 folks playing during EST prime time. It's sad that SOE ignored Vanguard and placed an out of touch WOW clone-bot lead developer like Silius in charge.

Link

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=51003

Originally posted by Daffid011

I don't think you are wrong about those types of players, but I just think there are far more variety of players than people give credit for.  Like I don't think all 11 million wow players are only attracted to the same things. It just happens that other games just don't compare to wows overall level of content and quality.

 

I am of the belief that if there were 5 equally well made, but totally different games that we would see 5 companies fighting for top honors. 

WoW is a good game, I don't play it anymore, when I did I did so because I had a good time. That is something that I would say about any games that I played and currently are playing. And I doubt that I'm alone with that, which I really should not feel any necessity to mention.

There is alot of questionmarks though.

Why is not WoW on the top rated games on this site, player-ratings.
Why is Vanguard rated higher than WoW.

I would not say(or believe) that fans of Vanguard is more content with their game of choice than what a WoW-player is.

Looking at various forums. There is alway the talk about "wow-killer". Almost as a game is good if the person next to me choose to play, not if I do. Like a games success, or greatness is due to have same same but very different things in them. And one can also read all this flames, trolling, whinage on things that reallt works as well in this and that game as it does in WoW. It simply is not the same, or because it have something in them that resembles WoW.

I'm pretty shure that if there would be 4 other equally made game as WoW they would not be fighting with WoW. Not until the era of WoW is over. Things that don't work, or didn't work in WoW don't matter as much as the thing that don't work in those games. I remember a quest serie that was not fixed/finished during the 1½ year I played WoW, and in the next game a temporarly broken quest is not forgivable. Falling through the boats in WoW, getting stuck on the boats loading screens so long that you'd find yourself back at the starting point... in another game the forums would be unusable because of a similar issue.

:/

Alot of people play WoW and I think that some of them plays it because the next guy/girl does. It's just a simple /care about other games that is around aswell. To mention a few things.

Originally posted by Trueth

The OP should probably stay on the trial server. Once he hits the live servers he is in for a different story. Population is at an all time low. In fact, in Seradon we have less than 500 folks playing during EST prime time. It's sad that SOE ignored Vanguard and placed an out of touch WOW clone-bot lead developer like Silius in charge.

Link

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=51003

 

 

 

While it's true to say the main game world isn't exactly over run with players. In fact, it can be pretty sparse in some of the more out of the way low level areas. Perhaps the more appropriate advice might be to suggest making an effort to join a guild with a similar play style to you.

Vanguard players have tended to accumulate around guilds to avoid this lack of random players to group with.

Guilds are good in Vanguard. Try them.

This website doesn't attract people who are happy with their current game, it attracts people who are generally burned out of their current mmo and are looking for a new game to play.  That is why you see rankings here the do not represent the market as it really is.  There have been games on the list that were rated above wow, but at the same time were closing their servers for good. 
 

As for people playing wow, because the next guy/girl does, why?  What is stopping them from playing something else if it offers more? 

The wow era isn't dead yet, because no one has challenged it yet.  This whole notion that wow players are somehow mindless zombies that just follow the herd is rather absurd, because it overlooks the obvious.  Wow attracted its players with a highly polished well designed game that continues to raise the bar for quality and variety.

Now if you can name a game that can match that and offer a reason for people to leave wow, then you might have a point.  However I think the reason wow remains so dominant is due to the poor quality and variety of so many other games. 

That is why I said equal quality games would spread the market out.  If warhammer and/or conan had delivered a feature complete polished game I think you would see a second and third game on the market going over 1 million players each.  Yet they didn't do that.  They delivered hacked up games with poor mechanics, performance and poorly tested gameplay features.  Just think how hard it would be to lose 1 million paying customers. 

It isn't like the bugs, performance and flawed features in wow are comparable to what happened in either of those games and that is a fairly common trend in mmos. 

No one knows about Vanguard.

No one knows about MMORPG.com either.

Ive worked in a manufacturing plant for 22 years ( population 3,000 workers ) , and for the past two years I work for the US Army on a base ( 6,000 workers ). I've met at least 200 people face to face that play WoW, and often I'll mention other  MMO's and this site and none of them had ever heard of any of them, except one plays Final Fantasy XI, and one that plays EQ2.

This site ain't shit as compared to the people playing WoW, most no one knows anything else or this site.  So when SOE gives us that free month, the same people see it over and over.

Very Very close to Zero advertisement for Vanguard.  The Box has to go back into the store, every noob wants a disc in hand, this digital download crap has to go.  I live in Pennsylvania, in the past two years I've been in Georgia, Alabama, New York, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Texas, I make it a point to stop in Game Stops and EB Game stores, and not one copy of Vanguard in any of them, in fact if you ask a salesmen about Vanguard, they would defiantly talk you out of it.

SOE needs to fix the group quest problem, then advertise!!!! .......  Bottom line, and you don't get any better facts than this. Nothing you guys could theorize or your facts could change anything unless SOE takes the ball and runs with.

For the past six, months I come to the Vanguard forums to see if SOE HAS DONE ANYTHING ABOUT IT, CAUSE THEIR THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN. Well guess not yet :(

Boxes in shops. You're right.

Advertising on these mmo fan sites is pointless. We are only 2% (or less) of the actual player base of MMO's and we already know about it, have discussed it to death and have made our minds up one way or the other.

I've been buying computer games for myself since 1983 and I can honestly say my purchase level has gone down - dramatically - since I had to start downloading games and demos. I bought way more games when I had to go to the games store and choose stuff off the shelf. The MMO industry needs new players, not just regurgitate the current player base.

The sooner they realise they actually have to spend money putting boxes in shops and advertising in the real world to make real sales, the better.

The day the add the 4th melee class to the game is the day I will come back and give it another shot.  Was supposed to be a fighter psionic class but they pulled it right before game came out because it was not finished yet. The game was fun but like it has been said as you got up in levels it was hard to find a group.

I think Banecrow is talking about the fourth Tank class (not melee class). It was going to be the Inquisitor. Like he said though, it didn`t make the final cut.

I also agree with a poster above who said that the game needs discs on store shelves. You are so correct !!!

I am loving Vanguard. It`s the best MMO that I have ever played to be honest (and I have played a bunch of them). No, the game doesn`t have the population of WoW, but I really don`t care. I can still find groups when I need them fairly easy. I`m not saying that I can log on at any time and just shout out "lvl 31 Disciple LFG" and people will come a running, but I can get groups with some patience and persistance usually within 10 to 15 min (sometimes more, sometimes less).

I did answer a player message this week who said "Does anyone ever group before lvl 55?". I told him "Yes. In group areas." He sent a reply saying that he had been to 3 group zones and all were deserted. Well, he was in the same zone as me (Blighted Lands) and I did a /who. There were 32 players in the zone. Nine of those players were his level.

Sometimes I think a persons attitude can help or hurt people finding groups. Knowing where a group is really needed helps too.

Well I downloaded for the trial, havent played it since release. I must say it looks alot better now then it did then. (unless my memory is shot, which wouldnt be a surprise) Will do the 14 days and see if I like it still. I thought it was a good game in beta, but at the time my system just couldnt run it very well. So far tho Im thinking I may resub to it.

Always thought it was more like EQ then EQ2 was. Maybe they should just rename it as EQ3 and get it over with. It was a great game with alot of bugs, but a great game non the less, I loved the diplomacy skill in this the most tho, added something totally new to the gameplay I felt.

Originally posted by Daffid011

This website doesn't attract people who are happy with their current game, it attracts people who are generally burned out of their current mmo and are looking for a new game to play.  That is why you see rankings here the do not represent the market as it really is.  There have been games on the list that were rated above wow, but at the same time were closing their servers for good. 
 

As for people playing wow, because the next guy/girl does, why?  What is stopping them from playing something else if it offers more? 

The wow era isn't dead yet, because no one has challenged it yet.  This whole notion that wow players are somehow mindless zombies that just follow the herd is rather absurd, because it overlooks the obvious.  Wow attracted its players with a highly polished well designed game that continues to raise the bar for quality and variety.

Now if you can name a game that can match that and offer a reason for people to leave wow, then you might have a point.  However I think the reason wow remains so dominant is due to the poor quality and variety of so many other games. 

That is why I said equal quality games would spread the market out.  If warhammer and/or conan had delivered a feature complete polished game I think you would see a second and third game on the market going over 1 million players each.  Yet they didn't do that.  They delivered hacked up games with poor mechanics, performance and poorly tested gameplay features.  Just think how hard it would be to lose 1 million paying customers. 

 

It isn't like the bugs, performance and flawed features in wow are comparable to what happened in either of those games and that is a fairly common trend in mmos. 

 

 

 

I agree with this post.  I don't think any game released in the last 2-3 years is even on the same page as wow quality wise.  Most MMO companies release games that are more like paid beta tests.  Buggy, incomplete, unbalanced, poorly running messes and then expect the players to foot the bill to finish the game.  Someone should take legal action and start shutting these companies down for false advertising or something.  This is where Wow and Blizzard have their act together.  Wow released and runs a quality game. 

That said there is a certain herd mentality at work with wow that gives it momentum.  When you are just entering the mmo world you are most likely being pulled by what is popular or what your friends play.  This is where wow also does well.  With a huge advertising budget and a dominant market position they definitely capitalize on the herd mentality.

I think there is a large contingent of wow gamers that are interested in another game.  When a half way decent game launches you see it rocket to steller numbers showing the willingness of people to move.  Unfortunately most companies have not been able to release a good game that actually works properly and delivers good content.  So these games launch and then die in a flash.

What I see in the trend of poorly done crappy games being released tends to tell me that Wow is gonna be dominant for a long time till some company gets a clue and releases a finished polished content complete product.  Maybe bioware will do this but I'm not holding my breath.  I think that the only thing that will dethrone wow will be blizard releasing a new game.  Which btw I think would be a horrible decision on their part.  Doing so would shake loose a lot of hard core wow fans and once you shake them loose they won't be as sticky in the next game.

If blizzard is smart they will release updates that change the entire game and bring it forward to keep it fresh and keep it uptodate relative to new games.  In other word rather then release wow 2 have an expansion that changes wow into wow 2.  With the resources that blizzard has they are one of the few companies that could actually pull this off.

Originally posted by page

No one knows about Vanguard.

No one knows about MMORPG.com either.

Ive worked in a manufacturing plant for 22 years ( population 3,000 workers ) , and for the past two years I work for the US Army on a base ( 6,000 workers ). I've met at least 200 people face to face that play WoW, and often I'll mention other  MMO's and this site and none of them had ever heard of any of them, except one plays Final Fantasy XI, and one that plays EQ2.

This site ain't shit as compared to the people playing WoW, most no one knows anything else or this site.  So when SOE gives us that free month, the same people see it over and over.

Very Very close to Zero advertisement for Vanguard.  The Box has to go back into the store, every noob wants a disc in hand, this digital download crap has to go.  I live in Pennsylvania, in the past two years I've been in Georgia, Alabama, New York, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Texas, I make it a point to stop in Game Stops and EB Game stores, and not one copy of Vanguard in any of them, in fact if you ask a salesmen about Vanguard, they would defiantly talk you out of it.

SOE needs to fix the group quest problem, then advertise!!!! .......  Bottom line, and you don't get any better facts than this. Nothing you guys could theorize or your facts could change anything unless SOE takes the ball and runs with.

For the past six, months I come to the Vanguard forums to see if SOE HAS DONE ANYTHING ABOUT IT, CAUSE THEIR THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN. Well guess not yet :(

Wow represents about 60% of the subscriber mmo market.  Give or take. 

That means roughly 40% play other games, so 4 out of every 10 players not only know about other games, but they play them.  That number is much higher since I am pretty sure many players in wow have heard of and tried other games.  Unless you want to believe that 11 million people have never played or heard of another mmo.  New MMOs are selling over 1 million copies now, so plenty of people know the market.

We could guess that vanguard would grow with advertising and boxes on shelves, but that is just wild speculation.  It might get more people to try the game, but there is no guarantee they would stay.

Is the game growing right now with the free trial? No.  There are plenty of trials going on right now, so why isn't the game growing?  The game has steadily been shrinking and even when there was a decent population, vanguard could not attract and retain players. 

Think of the limited marketing the game gets right now as test marketing.  Is it paying off?  No.  What evidence is there to suggest more money would do the trick? 

Well I dont work for SoE so I cant really say if sub have gone up with the trial coming, but I can tell you this for certain, the sub count has gone up by one as of today, since I resubbed for it for the first time since launch. There is an old saying, you reap what you sow. Meaning if you put in no effort, you get nothing.

I think many people will agree that Vanguard is the best PvE MMO available.  I think if players understand the population dip from 20 to 40 and expect it then perhaps it won't be a rude surprise.  The quests, the world, the playerbase is just too spreadout in those levels.  Mentoring should be a nice way to group at those levels.  I'm looking foward to mentoring down with a few others to join a guildy in TK once they get to that dungeon.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by page

No one knows about Vanguard.

No one knows about MMORPG.com either.

Ive worked in a manufacturing plant for 22 years ( population 3,000 workers ) , and for the past two years I work for the US Army on a base ( 6,000 workers ). I've met at least 200 people face to face that play WoW, and often I'll mention other  MMO's and this site and none of them had ever heard of any of them, except one plays Final Fantasy XI, and one that plays EQ2.

This site ain't shit as compared to the people playing WoW, most no one knows anything else or this site.  So when SOE gives us that free month, the same people see it over and over.

Very Very close to Zero advertisement for Vanguard.  The Box has to go back into the store, every noob wants a disc in hand, this digital download crap has to go.  I live in Pennsylvania, in the past two years I've been in Georgia, Alabama, New York, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Texas, I make it a point to stop in Game Stops and EB Game stores, and not one copy of Vanguard in any of them, in fact if you ask a salesmen about Vanguard, they would defiantly talk you out of it.

SOE needs to fix the group quest problem, then advertise!!!! .......  Bottom line, and you don't get any better facts than this. Nothing you guys could theorize or your facts could change anything unless SOE takes the ball and runs with.

For the past six, months I come to the Vanguard forums to see if SOE HAS DONE ANYTHING ABOUT IT, CAUSE THEIR THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN. Well guess not yet :(

Wow represents about 60% of the subscriber mmo market.  Give or take. 

That means roughly 40% play other games, so 4 out of every 10 players not only know about other games, but they play them.  That number is much higher since I am pretty sure many players in wow have heard of and tried other games.  Unless you want to believe that 11 million people have never played or heard of another mmo.  New MMOs are selling over 1 million copies now, so plenty of people know the market.

We could guess that vanguard would grow with advertising and boxes on shelves, but that is just wild speculation.  It might get more people to try the game, but there is no guarantee they would stay.

Is the game growing right now with the free trial? No.  There are plenty of trials going on right now, so why isn't the game growing?  The game has steadily been shrinking and even when there was a decent population, vanguard could not attract and retain players. 

Think of the limited marketing the game gets right now as test marketing.  Is it paying off?  No.  What evidence is there to suggest more money would do the trick? 

 

 

Since you like to use statistics, find 10 off the street WoW players, and ask them if they know about Vanguard, or mmorpg.com

 I'm 100% sure they will say no !!!

Originally posted by page 

Since you like to use statistics, find 10 off the street WoW players, and ask them if they know about Vanguard, or mmorpg.com

 I'm 100% sure they will say no !!!

I didn't say everyone knows about vanguard and I thought I was pretty clear in saying that it doesn't have a huge advertising budget.  However new people are trying it all the time and have been for the last few years.

The result is that the game is has not retained players.  Would more advertising really change that?

What do you expect in an almost 3 year old MMO?  That a huge chunk of the population is going to be mid-level?  I mean come on now..

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by page 

Since you like to use statistics, find 10 off the street WoW players, and ask them if they know about Vanguard, or mmorpg.com

 I'm 100% sure they will say no !!!

 

I didn't say everyone knows about vanguard and I thought I was pretty clear in saying that it doesn't have a huge advertising budget.  However new people are trying it all the time and have been for the last few years.

The result is that the game is has not retained players.  Would more advertising really change that?

I thought I made myself pretty clear, that they have to do two things, FIX THE GAME FIRST then advertise.  Mid level game is MOST all  group quest. EVERY ZONE AFTER LEVEL 20 HAS RECOMMENDED 3 PLAYERS. Please don't minimize this point because it's spot on fact.  Leaving the kill 10 rats quest to the solo player.

The OOC, and few mid level Guildie's were constantly complaining about this, yet when you offer help they would ether ignore you or say na.  Seems as if people were just trying to find solo content.  Thrust me I'm a very social player in all my mmo's.  I'm the king of LFG's and know how to use all the resources to find them.  I can even take dull games like EQ2 mid level and cause a spark to get players to group.  Yet Vanguard is made for group play only.

Someone recommended a guild called noberific or something like that.  Anyway I joined that guild only to find the same complaints as no one can play solo.  Yet on the other hand, no one was grouping either. I guess it's because Vanguard has a lot of first time around players, and everyone likes solo first time around.

I still stand by everything I say, FIX THE GAME FIRST THEN ADVERTISE, as in real advertisement, not cheap advertisement like they been doing !!!

Don't even think about arguing these facts, because this is why Vanguard is dead !!  I just took the guess work out for all of you.

Originally posted by page

Don't even think about arguing these facts, because this is why Vanguard is dead !!  I just took the guess work out for all of you.

Shame you don't work for SOE then.

So the reason Vanguard isn't popular (setting aside its early technical issues) is because it's not solo friendly at mid level?

That is a pretty damning indictment on the Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game community.

Personally, I love Vanguard BECAUSE you need to group. It's like online D&D, Runequest, Harn, etc, and NOT a Fighting Fantasy choose your path solo book!

I just wish more MMORPG players actually wanted to MMORP.

Not every game has to be solo friendly, perhaps Vanguard just needs to advertise specifically towards the people looking for group orientated PvE play?

That was a bad attempt to argue the facts Vyrolakos,

If I worked as a dev. for SOE :

No page, were not going to spend the funds on re-aragning quest for you to make more solo friendly content, now get to work on programing our billing and accounts for the Station Pass, we need more money !

If I worked as marketing for SOE :

No Page, were not spending the money to put disc in the store.  And we have a policy, we don't schedule air time on National TV.  Now call mmorpg and get a good cheap price to run a 2"x2" banner on mmorpg.com web site again, like we always do !

........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Look everyone, no sense in waisting brain cells on Vanguard as to why it has a low population.  It's up to SOE and SOE alone to make things better.  In fact they may be right where they want to be with it.  Some one in a previous post stated they may have bought out the game just to keep pressure off EQ2, that could be.  Fans here at mmorpg are not gonna save this game with well thought out post cause were nothing, were a baseball as compared to the size of the sun.

Something to ponder :

WoW is the only game where the deves re-arrange content to make the game better. 

LOTRO- Book quest, and chain quest ( do first part, to get the next quest )  makes the game too solo  and discouraging to find players to help or group, yet they don't fix this. The game could be #2, but it could be way more popular if they would fix this irritating aspect of the game.

Warhammer- Very anticipated before release, But they blind sided everyone with giving ALL the exp. to scenarios, when people were expecting RvR, Yet to my knowledge they never fixed this.

EQ2- kind of like Vanguard, try to solo and shoot one strategic placed arrow and agro the entire zone at random, Never fixed the dull elevator music, never added trees to its flat green carpet of a world. Never fixed the chat so everyone talks to everyone, and NEVER FIXED THEIR MAPS, so nob's are confused, and discouraged.

Every MMO has some nasty aspect to piss people off real bad, yet they never fix them ever, including Vanguard.

.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Lets face the facts even the most social player players solo 70% of the time ( more so if your new ). Unless your a husband and wife teem, or a total nerd with a pack of nerds friends that all are on board with playing Vanguard, you will not survive with Vanguard in the state it's in. That's a given, just look at the game !

Originally posted by page

Trial was GREAT !

10-20 was GREAT !

20-30 it all just stops..........population goes down to nothing, BUT........ Thats not the worst part of it.  All the fun quest are group quest.  Solo quest are the go kill ten rats quest.  You will find real cool keeps,castles, dungeons, caves, and holes in the ground and not be able to play them because that's for the group quest.  Every noob was complaining about this in game, yet you can't get groups together for anything !

I love Vanguard.  So much that I come here every few days to see if anything changed, but nothing. 

 SOE needs to advertise, I mean really advertise, not by giving a free month and using word of mouth on mmorpg.com where everyone already knows the state of the game, but Real advertisement, not the free marketing crap they had been offering.

They also need to fix the group quest. What were they thinking !!..... That every zone will have 100 of people in each 24/7.  WoW does not even have the populations to do what Vanguard was trying to achieve per zone.

Champions Online failed, Darkfall failed, AoC failed, Warhammer failed, now Aion is failing. .......come on SOE, fix Vanguard and really advertise.... Nows your chance Do It !!

Nothing SOE can do will change gamers themselves.The majority are superficial gamers,they want to solo,and no it has nothing to do with casual or time constraints,that is all BS lies.They do not care about the quality of a game,they only want a few things,play with the masses,easy leveling to end game,then a PVP stage to brag,show off whatever.

I am afraid there is nothing that will get players to think rationally and play a better quality game like VG,it has passed the hype stage,and as i said players follow the masses,the hype.So i am saying this game literally has less than a 5% chance of ever making a comeback,marketing,spending money will not do it.

They would have to introduce something into the game SOoooooooooooo big,that people would have to jump in or look stupid,i can't see that happening,creative ideas in all developing studios seems to be at an all time low.

How could you introduce something so big without totally changing the game??this has already been tried in SWG,it does not work,once players begin to leave,nothing can change it,and yes players were already leaving SWG before NGE,that i why they made the changes they did,they were in hot water.This is why i also believe SOE will never again waste time and money to try and change a game or win back players,they will instead move on,this is why you will not see support for old games now.

It is all about money and running a business,both Smed and the  top gun at SONY were made top execs to try and turn around SONY from losing money,they are not going to spend money where it is not making money.Here is a biggie,ask players what they actually want and they are pretty much lost,i don't think gamers want anymore than what i already pointed out,those 3 things.......easy/fast/high reward.

Though i hate to say this, i would really like to see some form of a pvp flagging system like SWG had, or WoW.  Perhaps side could be what continent you started on.  If there on your Continent you can atk them but are flagged for a period of time.  This would effect PvE though; or you can go to the other land masses kill a guard and your flagged.  It could add a little bit of pvp fun that you wouldnt need to take part in.  I know its a PvE game but its all about options...

I might give this a spin.

Page, I agree with much of what you say and think it is correct.  However I do not think that is the only problem with the game and fixing the mid level grouping will not magically solve this games problems (even with advertising).

Honestly I think you are stating one fact among many.  It has been almost 3 years and the company running the game is not going to put the resources into making it thrive.  It doesn't really matter what facts we point out that are holding the game back, because they are not going to get addressed.

I guess your right Daffid011,

Their not gonna do nothin, It's a rep for Vanguard.  it's sad because I like the game. I'm really starting to hate SOE

I like the game also, but see little reason to invest my time into a game without the company running it willing to do the same. 

Sad really.