Because I'm willing to bet that anything even halfway worth mentioning is either 2D, Korean cash shop grinder, or over 10 years old.  And by challenging, I mean it is difficult just to keep from losing progress, much less progress at all, where players without a certain level of skill, are just going to wind up getting frustrated and quit, and end-game is just not a part of the games vocabulary, at least not for a long time.

So which is it?  Because when I really think on it, the closest thing I can come up with is D2 in permadeath mode, which isn't even a MMO to begin with.  

I always figured that there would be a truly epic MMO released at some point, where world bosses remain undefeated for years before the players finally come up with some crazy tactic and manage to kill them, and totally opposite from what is normal now, where you can reach your progression cap in a matter of weeks.  I always figured that at some point a blow your freaking mind MMO would come out where players would be at it for years and still never hit any cap, where there is no such thing as end game for well into the worlds life, and where you can always have something to aim towards.

YEAHHH!!!!  JOIN ME ON DARKFALL!!!!

Originally posted by GrubbsGrady

YEAHHH!!!!  JOIN ME ON DARKFALL!!!!

Psh, gimme a break.  DF is nothing but a bunch of fools trying to prove that they macroed more than you did.  I played DF for a few weeks, then realized that all I needed to do was sit in town on my rear and macro for a few weeks.  That's what I don't like about most skill based games, and also why I think AO had the best idea with XP that you spend on skills.

Eve Online, permaybehaps.

Try Lineage II on phoenix or some other active server like that lol... you'll get your ass handed over to you. : )

And before someone starts to flame L2, take your time to think about this... when did u try L2? (DID U TRY L2 AT ALL?)... If the answer is before gracia final update you should keep your mouth shut.

 Lineage 2 is probably the most challenging one I played...Just because of the grind and then when you die you lose exp..guess its not really challenging just need to be insane and smart to hit the max =/

Final Fantasy XI....nuff said!

L2 is really challenging, its way less grind now with gracia final and the game is about working with a group in the endgame... as much as up to teams consisting of 500players+ in sieges... If thats not a challenge i dont know any challenges when it comes to games.

Originally posted by CayneJobb

Eve Online, permaybehaps.

Yea EVE is good call.  I probably played EVE more than any other MMO since WoW.  But space puts me to sleep, I want to lurch around in dungeons with some creepy BGM playing, and stuff moving around in the shadows, or look at a spectacular view in an emerald forest with waterfalls and life.  You just don't get that in space =P  But yea, EVE is a great MMO, I have enjoyed playing it.

Originally posted by Kuro1n

Try Lineage II on phoenix or some other active server like that lol... you'll get your ass handed over to you. : )

And before someone starts to flame L2, take your time to think about this... when did u try L2? (DID U TRY L2 AT ALL?)... If the answer is before gracia final update you should keep your mouth shut.

I played L2 for 1 month and during that time I could not get used to the click-move system.  Why did they make it like that??  I like to look around in first person mode, i always play first person.

Maybe I should try it again, and imagine that it's diablo 3 haha

I can tell you that im very skilled with that system and im having a hard time with WASD... Ive played Lineage 2 since Korean closed beta tho (average 4 hours per day -.-). Ive never had any problem with that way of moving... you do get used to it, my gf recently started playing and shes starting to understand now after a month and a half of playing.

Heres a siege, just to show you what i mean with big teams:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HCTWP1CV

To be among the best? you have a bit of competition...

I'd say the hardest game I've played was Eve... but that's only the beginning, after you grasp the basics... and the bit more advance stuff it's easy and fun.

But just like you I fall asleep everytime I have to autopilot (or read a book).

I'd say any games with harsh penalties or STEEP learning curves create a hard game.

Most sand-boxes have the steep learning curves... you could try out Fallen earth?

Originally posted by heremypet

Because I'm willing to bet that anything even halfway worth mentioning is either 2D, Korean cash shop grinder, or over 10 years old.  And by challenging, I mean it is difficult just to keep from losing progress, much less progress at all, where players without a certain level of skill, are just going to wind up getting frustrated and quit, and end-game is just not a part of the games vocabulary, at least not for a long time.

So which is it?  Because when I really think on it, the closest thing I can come up with is D2 in permadeath mode, which isn't even a MMO to begin with.  

I always figured that there would be a truly epic MMO released at some point, where world bosses remain undefeated for years before the players finally come up with some crazy tactic and manage to kill them, and totally opposite from what is normal now, where you can reach your progression cap in a matter of weeks.  I always figured that at some point a blow your freaking mind MMO would come out where players would be at it for years and still never hit any cap, where there is no such thing as end game for well into the worlds life, and where you can always have something to aim towards.

By "progress" do you mean powering up your character, or do you mean actually doing and achieving stuff? If the latter, then EvE exactly fits your description of "a blow your freaking mind MMO would come out where players would be at it for years and still never hit any cap, where there is no such thing as end game for well into the worlds life, and where you can always have something to aim towards."

The thing i do like about heavy f2p grinders is the long term aproach. You know you may never reach the level cap and that there will always be something to do. Comunities are pretty good too after youve managed to reach a decent level. But i do guess it all comes down to your definition of hard (not that you didnt make yourself clear) i mean, i could never give up my life to be in a top WOW guild.

MO is definitely a contender. You actually have to remember how to get from point A to point B. It gets confusing and you could actually get lost in the wilderness. This doesn't break the NDA because everyone knows there is no radar.

Join a permadeath guild in DDO? Its already one of the most challenging MMOs and with permadeath its on a whole new level. Some of theese guilds even do the higher level raids.  

wurm online (i nag about this game most often now days:). you will get lost in the woods and die just becuse you didnt know how to feed yourself <3

Aion is very challenging and btw its a highly polished game too... group play is very important and difficult (thus so many crying there)... pvp is challenging too - fast paced, tactical air combat... you may give it a try...

 EVE.

Definitely EVE if you decide to play ONLY in null sec and low sec space, from the get-go. I can't think of anything that'd be more difficult.

If there is a truly challenging game out there it is something I never played or even heard about.

L2 and Guildwars have some pretty tough opposition, Guildwars in hard mode is probably the toughest thing I ever played (from the guy who gave us Hell and Nightmare in Diablo). It is not a classic MMO however, most MMOs today are evolved from Meridian 59 and Everquest, both L2 and Guildwars are instead evolved from Diablo (GW have some of the original Diablo devs on it).

But something that it would take years for certain bosses to be defeated, that is unheard of. I am not so sure there is a market for that. But some games that is harder than the average game is another matter.

And I am not counting PvP games here, a PvP game is as hard as the opposition is good. PvE games have a lot of things to do with the AI and the Ai sucks in almost every MMO. Try to tank a human, not bloody likely.

If you havn't played Guildwars you should give it a go, the mobs will try to kill the weakest opponent first and there isn't any tanks in it. It is still easy to do a campaign but there are some places that are very tough and once you done a campaign you can play it in hardmode, that is actually hard.

If you're so hellbent on the classic days of Everquest, the only thing that I found was worse (or better for some) was FFXI. There was no soloing past level 10. Teamwork is a must, and understanding skill chaining is a must as well. Not only do you have to know YOUR role, but the role of others... and visa versa to have an effective group. FFXI was just as campy as Everquest, so if you loved Woodstock-style camps of people waiting around for mobs to pop, then FFXI is for you. There are quests in the game, but the game is not QUEST DRIVEN like your more modern MMO's... and it's not as stupid and useless as the age old EverQUEST model either. Actually the cinematics with quests are rather enjoyable and help with immersion. 

Free trial on it's website, give it a test run.

Originally posted by Lansid

If you're so hellbent on the classic days of Everquest, the only thing that I found was worse (or better for some) was FFXI. There was no soloing past level 10. Teamwork is a must, and understanding skill chaining is a must as well. Not only do you have to know YOUR role, but the role of others... and visa versa to have an effective group. FFXI was just as campy as Everquest, so if you loved Woodstock-style camps of people waiting around for mobs to pop, then FFXI is for you. There are quests in the game, but the game is not QUEST DRIVEN like your more modern MMO's... and it's not as stupid and useless as the age old EverQUEST model either. Actually the cinematics with quests are rather enjoyable and help with immersion. 

Free trial on it's website, give it a test run.

Perhaps I will.  I always just figured I missed the boat on FFXI, but at least it will hold me until something else comes along.  Besides I'm a big fan of Nobuo Uematsu.  I'm gonna give L2 another go as well, but I think I'm done with EVE.  I want to be in control of my rate of progress, not just pick a skill and then go play something else, which is what I wound up doing half the time.

Thanks!

 I have to agree with L2. Eve is a close second, depending what type of game play you enjoy. I love that screen shot! "You have been playing for an extended period of time, please consider taking a break" LOL!

I view EVE as challenging, but not difficult as the OP was looking for.

Along that lines I'd agree with many others, Lineage 2, especially when it first came out was a reall challenge and one of the only MMO's that I wasn't up to the task to reach level cap.  I stopped at level 52 and that was after about 6 months of pretty regular playing. 

I don't know about the most challenging MMO as a whole, since I'm still relatively new to the genre, but I have to say that out of all the games I've played, EVE is probably the most challenging. I've been playing for about 16 days already (just recently suscribed to it) and at the moment, I'm still pretty much lost at it. The amount of information you have at the get go is extremely complicated, not to mention the types of ships and equipment and weapons and so on... I get scared just looking at the market.

The best thing about difficult games such as EVE though, is that when you finally figure something out, it is an extremely gratifying feeling.