1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

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If I think of any other questions, Iall try to add them. Thanks

Does sandbox game always to have harsh death penalty?

Each person will have their own definition of what a "sandbox" MMORPG is or should be.

IMO, classes or skills are irrelevant in making a sandbox MMORPG.

Other people will say if it has skills instead of classes, that automatically makes it a "sandbox".

My idea of a sandbox is a game where players can change the game world. Certainly players could do that with skills or classes.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Each person will have their own definition of what a "sandbox" MMORPG is or should be.

IMO, classes or skills are irrelevant in making a sandbox MMORPG.

Other people will say if it has skills instead of classes, that automatically makes it a "sandbox".

My idea of a sandbox is a game where players can change the game world. Certainly players could do that with skills or classes.

I agree. Classes or no classes is irrelevant. Single features need to be fitted to a larger picture before you can see how they effect other features. I see no reason why only classless character development makes a good sandbox.

Originally posted by tro44_1

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

FREEDOM, the ability to do as you please and someone does as they please(obv can have in game laws to stop people going ott)

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

Eiter as long as their not restrictive in the classes(any race can be any class and learn any ability or wear any armor/weapon i.e Could start as Warrior but thats just for base stats of which you branch off from there.

Removal of levels tho as to not create a big gap in between players(new starter does stand a chance with a veteran and thus deminishing the chances of griefing.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

SWG had a good idea lots of different worlds with wide open areas for towns/cities to be created however to control areas getting over built on have mob swarms that swoop through areas thus making some areas harder to build upon as building damage/destroy from the mobs unless proper defences are put in.

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

either can work.

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

Can have factions on the base that its the start of the game(Factions made by devs) these factions can die out be replaced(player factions) and so on different ones can come to power

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

If its relevent i.e oposing towns/cities can form alliances or wars. Aslong as its not random there is reason behind the war. not the matter of being number one faction but a faction cant be any bigger than its player base. if you start a war with another faction/town if you dont have the resources to keep the town then raise it.

Smaller factions can pay protection money to nearby factions to protect them from opposing factions.

However Factions that just go around raising towns will have bountys raised on them thus making other factions want to hunt them down so think before you attack.

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

Large guilds will have an upper hand however if they chose to be an evil faction neutral and good factions will form alliances to take them down due to protecting themselves or to get the bounty on the guild.

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

Yes you could build up faction standing behind the scenes with another faction and switch sides take out the faction leader

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Laws do need to be in place to protect new players I.E people/factions that go hunting new players will get bigger bountys on their head based upon player length of play. However same faction standing cant claim bountys.

due to the lack of levels players increase through abilities and learning to use certain items/weapons/armor so players still have something to work towards however new starters can still put up a good fight.

 

This is all just my opinion.

Originally posted by laokoko

Does sandbox game always to have harsh death penalty?

Death penalty? Sandbox doesn't even have to have PVP.   Doesn't even have to have combat.

Farmville's barely a game, yet has more active players each month than the majority of MMORPGs.  It's not hard to imagine a similar crafting-centric game with zero combat being similarly popular (but just...well...being more of a game and less of a viral-whatever.)

Probably not the type of game most players here are looking for, but it has the potential to be fun to a lot of players.

Originally posted by tro44_1

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

Open ended progression, Raise a character how you want and do what you want.

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

Yes a sandbox can have classes as long as you have sometype of flexible skill system under the hood.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

I don't understand how do you balance a world?

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

Combat has nothing to do with a game being sandbox.

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

It can have factions, most of the time factions aren't hardcoded. You can join or leave anyone you want or even stay undecided. you have more freedom it isnt like Horde v Alliance in WoW where you would never get to change.

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

No it's whatever you want to versus.

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

The little guild bands together with other little guilds to meet the big guild or alliance head on.

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

no

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If I think of any other questions, Iall try to add them. Thanks

Dude, the only difference between a sandbox and a themepark is in character progression. in a themepark you work toward a endgame goal with a set class with very little options. In a sandbox you create a custom template and you choose your end goal.

Other than that nothing else is written in stone as a sandbox or themepark feature.

Most of your questions don't really determine sandbox or themepark. Its all in the execution.

I'll give 2 non-sandbox examples and why they were definitely not sandboxes for me.

1. AoC. The fact that my char (every char) is THE singluar hero of the game, and that is mandated by the game. If the dev tells you who your char is before you even play, it ain't sandbox to me.

2. LoTRO. The game is absolutelty defined by the storyline and the storyline is static. Every char you make starts at the same point in the story, no matter when along the life cycle of the game you create your char.  Also the only option you have is to further the story along or not participate.

To me sandbox is about making a char in a world. Dynamics don't really matter (tho of course I have preferences, but they are just that, preferences) as long as they provide the feeling of being my own char in a world.

Note: LoTRO and AoC aren't supposed to be sandboxes so not trying to knock them by saying they're not.

Originally posted by tro44_1

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

    The presence of tools that allow players to manipulate and mange the game world. 

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

     I don't see why they can't be, but classes introduce an extreme set of restrictions, especially in virtual worlds (as opposed to single player CRPGs).

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

  World size is immaterial. ATITD, Metaplace and EVE all greatly differ in size and all offer sandbox gameplay.

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

    I've never heard of any one particular combat style being tied to sandbox design.

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

     You can have factions but, like classes, it adds in artificial barriers that seriously handicap emergent gameplay and restrict the freedom inherent in sandbox design.

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

    No, unless you are saying that conflict and cooperative efforts are between player-designated groups instead of server-assigned groups.... then, YES.

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

 http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=691

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

 No, but it can't hurt. .

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If I think of any other questions, Iall try to add them. Thanks

A sandbox is not defined by a series of answers to questions. I think freedom is also a poor descriptor, for no computer game can offer anything even close to complete freedom. Instead, a sandbox game is best described as a game that removes the need to follow a predefined path. Your charcater evolves in the course of doing things that you chose, rather than the game chosing what you must do to evolve your character. A sandbox is about the journey, for there is no destination. A sandbox is about going on holiday, hiring a car and getting lost - it is not a konteki tour.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Dude, the only difference between a sandbox and a themepark is in character progression. in a themepark you work toward a endgame goal with a set class with very little options. In a sandbox you create a custom template and you choose your end goal.

Other than that nothing else is written in stone as a sandbox or themepark feature.

Can you give an example of a themepark MMO with player run venues, player government or diplomacy (actual diplomacy, not a cardgame) as a factor in gameplay?.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by metalhead980

Dude, the only difference between a sandbox and a themepark is in character progression. in a themepark you work toward a endgame goal with a set class with very little options. In a sandbox you create a custom template and you choose your end goal.

Other than that nothing else is written in stone as a sandbox or themepark feature.

 

Can you give an example of a themepark MMO with player run venues, player government or diplomacy (actual diplomacy, not a cardgame) as a factor in gameplay?.

Not really but those features/mechanics aren't apart of every sandbox game either.

You can't peg features like that as sandbox only if you do then every sandbox needs to have them and right now very few do.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Dude, the only difference between a sandbox and a themepark is in character progression. in a themepark you work toward a endgame goal with a set class with very little options. In a sandbox you create a custom template and you choose your end goal.

Other than that nothing else is written in stone as a sandbox or themepark feature.

That's not true at all.

Sandbox vs. Themepark is a measure of how much player freedom exists in a game.  Games will be somewhere on the linear scale between Total Freedom, Sandbox, Themepark, and Linear.  Every game is at a unique point along this scale.  Although the far ends of the scale aren't games (games are structured activities

But the scale encapsulates all player choice in the game, not just character progression.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by metalhead980

Dude, the only difference between a sandbox and a themepark is in character progression. in a themepark you work toward a endgame goal with a set class with very little options. In a sandbox you create a custom template and you choose your end goal.

Other than that nothing else is written in stone as a sandbox or themepark feature.

That's not true at all.

Sandbox vs. Themepark is a measure of how much player freedom exists in a game.  Games will be somewhere on the linear scale between Total Freedom, Sandbox, Themepark, and Linear.  Every game is at a unique point along this scale.  Although the far ends of the scale aren't games (games are structured activities

But the scale encapsulates all player choice in the game, not just character progression.

How does open ended character progression not equal total freedom?

Character progression is everything in a MMO. Everything you do progresses you in some way.

You can't single out certain features like Town building, owning a house or player factions as set in stone features.

If we did then lotro would be a sandbox since it has housing.

Let make this thread actually interesting and list the features that are sandbox/open ended only. That list will be very small. Hell even the two main ones Skill system and no endgame can be disputed.

Only real sandbox that exists right now is Second Life.

Everything else has sandbox elements, but is not an actual sand box.

Some games have a lot of sandbox elements, some have very little.

And what happens in a pure sandbox game, with total freedom? Mostly players cyber and not a whole lot else.

Originally posted by tro44_1

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

----------------------------------

 

If I think of any other questions, Iall try to add them. Thanks

1) Freedom. Is some way. In my opinion it means that I'm not just going from "Level 10 Town A to Level 15 Town B" and my character progression is more than 3 choices of a talent tree.

2) Sure, but I still need freedom. Call me a warrior and limit me to heavy melee weapons and plate armor. Although, let me choose whether to specify in, be it spear, axe, dual wielding, greatswords, a more agile warrior with lighter plate, some kind of magic enhanced plate, so on, so forth. It's choice to me. All choice.

3) As big as you can make it and still fill it with stuff.

4) Nope. Plenty of choice is all that's needed. Personally I like the no auto-attack thing. I don't think it's needed for a sandbox though. Only choice.

5) They can. But they should be able to be changed by players.

6) No. That's just a stupid idea.

8) No.

No comment on 7.

In my opinion, sandboxes are about choice and players being able to go in and screw with the world. Look at the most popular Sandbox MMORPGs. EVE Online, it has auto-attack and factions not made by players (it has player ones too).  But, it has choice. Lots of choice. And players can change the world. I think that's all that's needed. Choice and the ability for players to change the world. Although sandbox is a term that can apply to many different features.

Sandbox is going to vary a lot in definition depending on who you talk to.

I'd agree with the idea that Second Life is the only true sandbox.

I don't agree that people only cyber (or cyber more) in sandboxes... having been around EQ and EQ2.. trust me that has nothing to do with sandbox.

To be quite honest at this point in MMO's... all a sandbox really is.. is a game that didn't follow the same recycled doomed to failure core design as 90%+ (more like 99.9%) of the market.  That's in terms of MMO's.

My favorite MMO was Ultima Online followed by Pre-CU SWG.  Those weren't really a sandbox in the sense of player created world/content.  They were just vastly different than say EQ...

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by metalhead980

Dude, the only difference between a sandbox and a themepark is in character progression. in a themepark you work toward a endgame goal with a set class with very little options. In a sandbox you create a custom template and you choose your end goal.

Other than that nothing else is written in stone as a sandbox or themepark feature.

 

Can you give an example of a themepark MMO with player run venues, player government or diplomacy (actual diplomacy, not a cardgame) as a factor in gameplay?.

Not really but those features/mechanics aren't apart of every sandbox game either.

You can't peg features like that as sandbox only if you do then every sandbox needs to have them and right now very few do.

Can you name a sandbox-style MMO that doesn't have that behavior present? If it isn't the norm for a themepark, but is the norm for a sandbox, then I'd say that falls into the category of 'a difference.'

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3365/page/1

What is a sandbox MMO, anyway? We often hear laments of old time gamers who miss the days of old-school Ultima Online and complain that no one has dared to properly fill that void. In the decade-plus since UO's launch, the market has been dominated by level based games. As cries for a sandbox MMO continue to grow louder, I wonder if it has not been so long that the memory of what they truly were has begun to fade. So, this week, I examine what, to me, was the essence of a sandbox MMO experience and how I'd like to see one built in this modern era.

Being a true sandbox MMO is about more than just mechanics. It's a virtual world where people can truly settle into a role. It's not about combat mechanics, quests, or storyline. It's about freedom.
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The idea of freedom is where so many more recent attempts at sandbox MMOs have gone terribly wrong. A sandbox MMO is not necessarily a hardcore experience. Ultima Online could be quite hardcore, but that was the beauty of it. It was, at its root, whatever the user made of it. For some, that meant hardcore PvP. For others, that meant picking berries or begging for change. What made UO magical is that it brought everyone in. It was open, it was inclusive.

Its inclusiveness was the magic of Ultima Online, and to me, the single thing that any would be sandbox MMO needs to replicate.

In a level-based MMO, players grind through content and levels in search of some sort of end game. Less time, means slower progression and thus delayed access to end-game content.

This is an important part of a theme park game's business model. They cannot let players max out their levels in a week or no one will stay subscribed over the long term.

Sandbox MMOs keep people involved through the sheer variety of what they can do. It doesn't take nearly as long to master a skill. A casual player can, in theory, get some core skills to a point necessary to do just about anything in their chosen field relatively rapidly. Sandbox MMOs keep people involved through options, choice and variety.

A truly great sandbox MMO also flattens the relative power curve between characters. In EverQuest, a level one is infinitely less powerful than a level 10, who is in turn completely unable to even compete with a level 25. That level 25, though, can stand in front of a level 50 character and swing his or her sword all day and never even make contact. "Miss... miss.... miss... miss...." and that level 50 can smite that level 25 all the way back to the Bronze Age with a flick of the wrist.

A great sandbox MMO turns this curve on its ear. A guy with 25 skill in swords should be precisely half as good as the guy with 50 skill. Sure, there's an advantage to being twice as good, and yes, the guy with 50 skill will usually win, but the point is that the 25 skill guy is not some infinitesimal peon, not even worth the notice of his better.

This simple dynamic opens up the game world from day one. Lots of level based MMOs have mentoring systems and other ways to bring people together, but they always feel a bit forced. In a skill based MMO with a flat curve, a veteran warrior who knows how to use many weapons, armors and magics can take a younger warrior under his wing and out into the world. Sure, the younger player may not be as skilled or do as much damage, but he can still contribute, and no one has to worry that he's just diluting their XP gain.

XP has its place, but it's a very anti-social mechanic. At its core, it dictates that the less people you have with you, the better it is for those who are there. It encourages exclusion, because each new person divides the pie that much more. Ironically, by making advancement a more shared experience, game designers have also made it a more anti-social one. Skill based games personalize advancement completely. It doesn't matter if there are 100 people whacking the dragon or 10. A whack is a whack. By personalizing advancement, players are free to view other players as allies and companions, rather than black holes that leach experience away from them.

Sandbox MMOs are also about far more than combat. This is where Darkfall misses the mark for me. Yes, it has a wealth of options in its design, but fair or not, it's developed a reputation as a hardcore PvP world. It's all about killing and looting. This is not options. The beauty of UO was the ability to be a minstrel, an author, or fisherman. Not everyone wanted to be a warrior, and even those that were, could easily slip off that one persona and show off a whole new side to their personality.

In fact, UO took it even a step further. Not only did the skill system promote the mastery of skills that had absolutely no combat benefit or application, but the world itself allowed people to develop themselves even further. There were poets in UO. There was no poetry skill, but people used the books to create their own niche inside that world.

Sometimes modern MMOs have this overwhelming need to make everything a mechanic. Pretend you were hired tomorrow by SOE to work on EverQuest II and your first task was to make an "author" profession for the game. What would you do? Odds are that within the confines of that game, the most logical thing to do would be to give players the ability to practice writing, gaining experience in it. Perhaps you'd add an adventure component, where players can gain experience through visiting locations in the world, talking to key NPCs, etc. All of these would then make the "books" they produced more valuable to sell at market.

There is nothing precisely wrong with a mechanic like the above, many would enjoy it, but this is a core place where sandbox MMOs differentiate themselves from theme park MMOs. An author in a true sandbox game is someone who can actually write, someone who types words into a book and shares it within the world. A great sandbox MMO would encourage and reward good authors and develop mechanisms to help promote good writers and bury bad ones. There would be no leveling up or even gaining skill. The bottom line is that in a traditional theme park MMO, a book is a commodity produced by the character and with some tangible in-game value. Unfortunately, it is a widget. It can never be opened, enjoyed and read. The inverse is true in a great sandbox. A book has no value save those words inside it.

Another big difference in my ideal sandbox game is that the goals are larger, more grandiose. In a regular MMO, people have little quests to accomplish specific tasks. In a sandbox MMO, these have their place, but since they're not necessarily needed for advancement, the emphasis is on fun.

A proper sandbox world would have larger scale goals, world events and challenges that players must work together to combat. I am not saying Live Content, or even big epic "come on at this time" style events. These are more like trends. The world lets you know there are zombies in the North this week, so everyone works to clear the North of zombies. Maybe pirates invade another week.

The key is large, cooperative, story-driven trends within the world that bring the community together against common goals. People want to be able to contribute in their own way and a well run sandbox MMO is one where the developers know just how involved to get.

Developers need to stir the pot, but not necessarily make the soup. They need to throw challenges out there and reward people, but if they try and get too involved, suddenly the whole thing can go to hell. The beauty of a sandbox game is that players often make their own content. The role of the developer is to give them situations in which they can shine, and then tell the world about it when they do. Players are the stars of these worlds.

This, to me, is what a sandbox MMO world should be. There are many definitions, but to me, too often in the nostalgia of Ultima Online, we forget what specifically made it such a wonderful place. It was by no means perfect, but it's been a decade and no one has successfully made a spiritual successor to it. That time has come, and somewhere, one can only hope someone will step up and make a game that is truly representative of all that Ultima inspired, not just one part of it.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Axehilt

Sandbox vs. Themepark is a measure of how much player freedom exists in a game.  Games will be somewhere on the linear scale between Total Freedom, Sandbox, Themepark, and Linear.  Every game is at a unique point along this scale.  Although the far ends of the scale aren't games (games are structured activities

But the scale encapsulates all player choice in the game, not just character progression.

How does open ended character progression not equal total freedom?

Character progression is everything in a MMO. Everything you do progresses you in some way.

You can't single out certain features like Town building, owning a house or player factions as set in stone features.

If we did then lotro would be a sandbox since it has housing.

 Let make this thread actually interesting and list the features that are sandbox/open ended only. That list will be very small. Hell even the two main ones Skill system and no endgame can be disputed. 

Er, Total Freedom is not a game.  Activities with total freedom are things like Real Life, or programming languages, or Photoshop. 

Sandbox games don't offer total freedom.  If you list every single thing you can do in a sandbox game, I can name a bunch more that you can't do -- due to the game's constraints.  Can you paint a picture in photoshop and upload it?  Can you fly/swim/climb?  Can you create new weapon types that don't yet exist in the game world?  Can you create items which don't even fit in the game world (laser pistols in medieval times)?

Even with the last example being ridiculous, these are all constraints on what you can/can't do.  You don't have total freedom in a sandbox.  You're just further down the scale towards freedom when compared with themepark games (which themselves are pretty far towards freedom compared to other game genres.)

But even if you zoom in so that only MMORPGs exist on the line, every MMORPG is going to be slightly different in exactly how much freedom you have. The terms sandbox and themepark are merely quick and vague reference points for general sections of the scale.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Axehilt

Sandbox vs. Themepark is a measure of how much player freedom exists in a game.  Games will be somewhere on the linear scale between Total Freedom, Sandbox, Themepark, and Linear.  Every game is at a unique point along this scale.  Although the far ends of the scale aren't games (games are structured activities

But the scale encapsulates all player choice in the game, not just character progression.

How does open ended character progression not equal total freedom?

Character progression is everything in a MMO. Everything you do progresses you in some way.

You can't single out certain features like Town building, owning a house or player factions as set in stone features.

If we did then lotro would be a sandbox since it has housing.

 Let make this thread actually interesting and list the features that are sandbox/open ended only. That list will be very small. Hell even the two main ones Skill system and no endgame can be disputed. 

 

Er, Total Freedom is not a game.  Activities with total freedom are things like Real Life, or programming languages, or Photoshop. 

Sandbox games don't offer total freedom.  If you list every single thing you can do in a sandbox game, I can name a bunch more that you can't do -- due to the game's constraints.  Can you paint a picture in photoshop and upload it?  Can you fly/swim/climb?  Can you create new weapon types that don't yet exist in the game world?  Can you create items which don't even fit in the game world (laser pistols in medieval times)?

Even with the last example being ridiculous, these are all constraints on what you can/can't do.  You don't have total freedom in a sandbox.  You're just further down the scale towards freedom when compared with themepark games (which themselves are pretty far towards freedom compared to other game genres.)

But even if you zoom in so that only MMORPGs exist on the line, every MMORPG is going to be slightly different in exactly how much freedom you have. The terms sandbox and themepark are merely quick and vague reference points for general sections of the scale.

Alright I give, Theres no difference between a sandbox and themepark. Its all made up shit man.

We made up the "themepark" term for one reason. We hate WoW. It's a Pos and we didn't want it to be associated with our games. It sucks so we made up the themepark.

Its the same with "sandbox" another way to get our games away from that abomination that made every mmo since it release suck ass and invite every Fps and Console newb to our genre.

Theres no open ended and no linear its all bullshit just so we arent reminded of the stink that is WoW.

Think about it we call "themeparks" linear due to quest and zone progression when in reality we dont have to do any quests at all and can actually pick the zones we want to go through.

We talk shit about limited class systems yet its not really limited fuck even in that Pos WoW you could make unique builds, if I don't care about min maxing I could make like 30 shaman builds right now.

All mmos have quests, raids, dungeons and some type of "Goal"

Its all bullshit man, sorry to tell you.

Seriously, People talk of "open worlds" fucking WoW has one of those dude, its not cut up into loading screens, its seemless, it has areas you can explore (didnt vanilla wow have like 400 caves and ruins to explore?)

So enough already with the sub genre bullshit.

These are MMORPGs nothing more, nothing less.

Im sorry guys someone had to do it. I was getting tired of the bullshit.

Originally posted by tro44_1

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

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If I think of any other questions, Iall try to add them. Thanks

All of the questions miss the point about sandbox games. A sandbox game is where the players are the content.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Alright I give, Theres no difference between a sandbox and themepark. Its all made up shit man.

<snipped bunch of sarcastic or dismissive stuff>

Talk about overreacting.

My point was simply that "sandbox" and "themepark" vaguely describe the magnitude of freedom.  There's considerable difference int he magnitude of freedom between the two, but sandbox isn't completely free nor is themepark particularly linear. 

My other point was to try to dismiss claims that sandbox games are this magical place where the player is 100% free to do what he wants.  They're not.  They have a great deal more freedom than themepark games, but you're still constrained in a lot of ways.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by metalhead980

Alright I give, Theres no difference between a sandbox and themepark. Its all made up shit man.

<snipped bunch of sarcastic or dismissive stuff>

 

Talk about overreacting.

My point was simply that "sandbox" and "themepark" vaguely describe the magnitude of freedom.  There's considerable difference int he magnitude of freedom between the two, but sandbox isn't completely free nor is themepark particularly linear. 

My other point was to try to dismiss claims that sandbox games are this magical place where the player is 100% free to do what he wants.  They're not.  They have a great deal more freedom than themepark games, but you're still constrained in a lot of ways.

LOL! Dude that last post was me with too many drinks in me while both the wife and four kids were at grandmas.

I apologize, really.

I honestly just think the whole sandbox and themepark thing is retarded.

Its easier for me to say I enjoy a open ended character progression which is basically just a skill system and me setting my own goal.

To go into specifics gets  new players really confused. The term sandbox is wrongfully used. In reality no game gives total freedom.

I think we should just go back to calling them mmorpgs.

For me:

Themepark = Game with events planned out to keep me entertained from beginning to end.

Sandbox = Simulation, where I'm turned loose in a virtual reality, where I can do whatever I feel like, and very little if anything is planned out in advance.

I really don't see why the differentiation is that difficult.

1. Sandboxes are what themepark players HATE because they're unstructured, not very entertaining, and provide little if any help in terms of hand-holding.

2. Themeparks are what sandbox players HATE because they're overly restrictive and limiting with regard to freedom.  For example, I'm on a quest to find the Kings daughter and I see a mountain to my left.  Forget the daughter, I want to run up the mountain, BUT the game won't let me.

Bottom line.  Sandboxes are for people who don't want to be TOLD how to play the game.  At least that's my perspective.

Ken

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