When it comes to raiding, the many ride the coattails and efforts of the few to reap the greatest reward.

Raid coordination takes a great deal of effort and most don't help much beyond showing up and spending their dkp. Raiding, at least in my opinion, is for the lazy.

As for what i do as a solo artist, i play the game and enjoy everything i can. I have lots of alts, i enjoy them too.

If i am bored, i don't play. Simple as that.

Btw, if the game you play isn't equally engaging, wonderfilled and exiting from level 1 to max, then your game sucks. There is more to life than this so called "end game".

Originally posted by TdogSkal

WoW caters to the solo and instant gradification crowd and to a lesser extent the raiding crowd.    Never played WOTLK so I would not know. I quit long before that expantion.

In EQ PuG grouping was the norm, most of the groups were PuGs not friends, family or guilds but random players from different guilds.   That is how a grouping game normally works.   I would never ever PUG in WoW, EVER.  The community is horrible. 

See EQ did not have that problem for the most part with community.   If you asked a question you got a good answer quickly and normally by more then one player.   The EQ1 community was great for the most part.    It was a group first game and the community was great because of that.  

WoW on the other hand is a solo first game and look at the community because of it.   Point set match.

Correlation does not equal Causation.  Sorry, the argument is not valid.  WOW has 2 Mil subscribers, EQ had 500k, that could also be the reason for poor community.  The average Age of the player base could be a reason for community problems.  The fact that WOW allows you to play undead, and EQ does not could ALSO be a reason for poor communities.  

Just because they have different playstyles does not mean that that is the reason for a crappy community.

Logical Fallacy

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

The argument I am hearing from solo players is you can't make the game as hard to level solo as EQ. That's just not solo friendly enough! Why, I can't stand around LFG all the time. I've got to walk the baby and change the dogs diapers! You expect me to group to make fast progress? That's unheard of! That game will fail! The game MUST be as easy to level as WoW or you're trying to FORCE me to group with you. I won't make xp as fast as a group? Impossible! Don't force me! I won't stand for it. No, no, no! The modern game must let solo just as easy as grouping to level up. Yes, that's the ONLY design that's viable. Nothing else will work. The game MUST be like WoW or it cannot succeed!

And then you get to the end game and what? you quit? Every single solo player that is on these threads complaining about how they would never play a "forced grouping game" (meaning you dont' level as fast solo as in a group) quits when they get to the end game?

What about in RvR when you need a guild or you get your butt handed to you solo? You quit playing that too, and go find another solo friendly game so you can level solo just as fast as grouping?

 If encouraging grouping is such a horrible game design, destined to fail, why are people raiding at the end of all the mMORPGs?

Raiding is even MORE time consuming and forced than grouping in EQ. So how is raiding ok, but encouraging grouping before the end game is such a horrible crime, and destined to fail?

I like a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC myself. I don't really care for the raid, but seems like a lot of players are doing it. You're telling me players dont' mind raiding, but if they can't solo as fast as WoW they won't play the game? Really?

How is playing the end game in WoW, and playing a game like EQ that encourages grouping before the end game, so terribly different?

I'm seriously asking.

 

Well, you are assuming that all players who solo in a game raid. I don't believe this to be remotely true.

Oh sure, they might go on a few raids but if a player is soloing because of time constraints or the difficulties of putting together/getting in a group  doubt they raid.

Then I believe there are the other players who solo simply because it's faster and easier to level to the top spaces. Once there they then raid to get the better gear.

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by madeux

I grouping is so great, why the hell aren't you out there grouping instead of constantly starting the same arguments over and over and over?

 

OP just backed himself in the corner of extremes.  Trying to pretend that none of today's games have good group content is just child's play.  I can't think of many AAA MMOGs that don't cater to a wide audience with good content for all play styles with maybe the exception of DFO because of the pure PvP format that it is.

 

 

That is not true.  Most of the newer games cater to the solo and instant gradification crowds.   The group content is added as an after though.   Most of the newer games reward solo player more then group play which makes group play pointless.   Why group when you can get more exp soloing?

Its not the games themselfs is the Quest hub game style that has ruined it.   Quests should be meaningful and fun, not pointless and hand holding.

 

Cater to is a lie.  Very big lie.  Grouping in WOTLK I could take a player from 70-80 in 2-3 days in dungeons.  Solo, it took weeks.  So don't try to tell me that you can get more xp solo than group.  Per individual kill, yes.  But not over long periods of time.  Also, don't try to tell me the whaaaaaaaa stories about grouping.  Fact is most of the time most people group with family, friends, and guildies. 

The problem with groups and the community is the community itself.  Ask a question in game and people will either do one of two things.  Refer you to a website or call you a noob.  Most of the time it's the later.  That noob term doesn't exactly give me that warm and fuzzy feeling making me want to go group with them now does it?  Then, Blizzard KILLED community with the comparing of achievements not to mention inspection of gear.  Regardless of how well a person plays, if you don't have the right achievements you are not getting an invite.

If the these games cater to any crowd it's the raiding crowd imho.

 

 

WoW caters to the solo and instant gradification crowd and to a lesser extent the raiding crowd.    Never played WOTLK so I would not know. I quit long before that expantion.

In EQ PuG grouping was the norm, most of the groups were PuGs not friends, family or guilds but random players from different guilds.   That is how a grouping game normally works.   I would never ever PUG in WoW, EVER.  The community is horrible. 

See EQ did not have that problem for the most part with community.   If you asked a question you got a good answer quickly and normally by more then one player.   The EQ1 community was great for the most part.    It was a group first game and the community was great because of that.  

WoW on the other hand is a solo first game and look at the community because of it.   Point set match.

 

EQ1 community was still when MMOG gaming "wasn't cool".  Gaming was still for the "computer nerds".  Fast forward to just before WoW and EQ2 coming out, MMO gaming started reaching mass appeal.  With WoW, it brought all the BNet Kiddies to for front and communities across the board went down hill from there.     Now, it's point set match.  Good game.

 

The point still stands.  EQ1 had a better community then WoW.  Reguardless of the "cool" factor the community was good due to grouping.   Based on everything I have seen while playing the game for years upon years it is still the case.

Games that have grouping as the main leveling style have better communities.  Its not that hard to understand.   Its very simple logic.

Gamers need other gamers to advance so they play "nice" which creates friendly communities. 

Early MMOs were designed for many folks who had few friends in RL. Those people are the ones who still whine about grouping. They wish RL was designed to make people hang out with them.

Originally posted by robert4818

Originally posted by TdogSkal

WoW caters to the solo and instant gradification crowd and to a lesser extent the raiding crowd.    Never played WOTLK so I would not know. I quit long before that expantion.

In EQ PuG grouping was the norm, most of the groups were PuGs not friends, family or guilds but random players from different guilds.   That is how a grouping game normally works.   I would never ever PUG in WoW, EVER.  The community is horrible. 

See EQ did not have that problem for the most part with community.   If you asked a question you got a good answer quickly and normally by more then one player.   The EQ1 community was great for the most part.    It was a group first game and the community was great because of that.  

WoW on the other hand is a solo first game and look at the community because of it.   Point set match.

 

Correlation does not equal Causation.  Sorry, the argument is not valid.  WOW has 2 Mil subscribers, EQ had 500k, that could also be the reason for poor community.  The average Age of the player base could be a reason for community problems.  The fact that WOW allows you to play undead, and EQ does not could ALSO be a reason for poor communities.  

Just because they have different playstyles does not mean that that is the reason for a crappy community.

Logical Fallacy

It is not the only reason but it has a lot to do with it.   Simple logic says that when a player needs other players to advance they are more willing to "play nice" which creates a better community.

A good example is EQ but I can use others as well.   Lets look at RL for an example.   The Work place.   People need other people to do their job so they are more willing to "play nice" which creates a good work enviroment.   Its not that hard to understand.

Grouping makes players talk to each other which makes players act nicer to be able to get groups which creates better communities.   Sure their are other reason as well but grouping is a huge factor.   Final Fantasy had/has a good community because of grouping.  

I use EQ as my example because I playged that game for years upon years.  I saw it first hand.   Players helped each other because helping others also helped you.  

Originally posted by orlac

Early MMOs were designed for many folks who had few friends in RL. Those people are the ones who still whine about grouping. They wish RL was designed to make people hang out with them.

Your so full of shit.  I have a ton of RL friends.  I play sports, I go out with my friends, I hook up with girls and still I find time for my favorite hobby, playing Video games mainly MMOs.

 Early MMOs were designed to make players interact with each other and work together to overcome the content.

Raiding is wow's end game.  What else is there for people to do?  They've dumbed down raiding now so that a brain-dead monkey could kill the top boss, but that doesn't mean people actually *like* it.  They just have to do it.

I think what's more telling is that when I quit wow (right before BC), between 5-10% of the population participated in the top level raids.  The fact that 90% refused to participate is telling in and of itself, and you really have to wonder just how much out of that 5-10% actually enjoyed raiding.  I'd imagine at least 50% of that 5-10% raided only because it was the only end game available and the only way to get top gear.  I'm one of those 50%.  

I'll say this much.  I actually liked raiding.  Yes, I really did.  But raiding as the sole endgame of a mmo is complete trash, and thus why I left wow.  I'm not even remotely close to being alone in this opinion.  Sorry, but the stats simply don't lie.

All that being said, just because someone doesn't like forced raiding as the end-game of a mmo doesn't mean they don't like grouping.  Heck, it doesn't even mean they don't like raiding.  They JUST HATE FORCED GROUPING!!!  It's really not that hard to understand.  People will group when it is FUN to do so.  If grouping isn't fun, then people aren't going to do it.  That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them or that they're anti-grouping.

Variety is the spice of life, and it still amazes me that mmo developers cannot figure this out.  You won't have a great game by only having spectacular crafting, or spectacular raiding, or spectacular pvp.  You will only have a great game by combining those elements into a game that is enjoyable for everyone, and allows them to pick and choose which playstyles are fun for them at any given point in time.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by orlac

Early MMOs were designed for many folks who had few friends in RL. Those people are the ones who still whine about grouping. They wish RL was designed to make people hang out with them.

 

Your so full of shit.  I have a ton of RL friends.  I play sports, I go out with my friends, I hook up with girls and still I find time for my favorite hobby, playing Video games mainly MMOs.

 Early MMOs were designed to make players interact with each other and work together to overcome the content.

 

I have no RL friends.  I don't play sports, and I hate going out.  I do have a wife, and she puts up with me :)

Early MMO's were ALL geeks... hardcore geeks.  That gave players something in common to begin with.  The mass appeal to MMO's now has taken that away.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by robert4818

Originally posted by TdogSkal

WoW caters to the solo and instant gradification crowd and to a lesser extent the raiding crowd.    Never played WOTLK so I would not know. I quit long before that expantion.

In EQ PuG grouping was the norm, most of the groups were PuGs not friends, family or guilds but random players from different guilds.   That is how a grouping game normally works.   I would never ever PUG in WoW, EVER.  The community is horrible. 

See EQ did not have that problem for the most part with community.   If you asked a question you got a good answer quickly and normally by more then one player.   The EQ1 community was great for the most part.    It was a group first game and the community was great because of that.  

WoW on the other hand is a solo first game and look at the community because of it.   Point set match.

 

Correlation does not equal Causation.  Sorry, the argument is not valid.  WOW has 2 Mil subscribers, EQ had 500k, that could also be the reason for poor community.  The average Age of the player base could be a reason for community problems.  The fact that WOW allows you to play undead, and EQ does not could ALSO be a reason for poor communities.  

Just because they have different playstyles does not mean that that is the reason for a crappy community.

Logical Fallacy

 

It is not the only reason but it has a lot to do with it.   Simple logic says that when a player needs other players to advance they are more willing to "play nice" which creates a better community.

A good example is EQ but I can use others as well.   Lets look at RL for an example.   The Work place.   People need other people to do their job so they are more willing to "play nice" which creates a good work enviroment.   Its not that hard to understand.

Grouping makes players talk to each other which makes players act nicer to be able to get groups which creates better communities.   Sure their are other reason as well but grouping is a huge factor.   Final Fantasy had/has a good community because of grouping.  

I use EQ as my example because I playged that game for years upon years.  I saw it first hand.   Players helped each other because helping others also helped you.  

RL has many counter example as well. In office politics is where some of the most vicious examples of bad behavior can be found. You are required to be there and take abuse if you want to keep your job.

EQ as an example is poor. The combat system in EQ is paced such that people can actually converse. Most modern games have a very busy combat system. Socializing is difficult if you actually want to make use of your character.  I have seen too many groups where little to nothing is said. Solo is where the chance to chat happens.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by robert4818

Originally posted by TdogSkal

WoW caters to the solo and instant gradification crowd and to a lesser extent the raiding crowd.    Never played WOTLK so I would not know. I quit long before that expantion.

In EQ PuG grouping was the norm, most of the groups were PuGs not friends, family or guilds but random players from different guilds.   That is how a grouping game normally works.   I would never ever PUG in WoW, EVER.  The community is horrible. 

See EQ did not have that problem for the most part with community.   If you asked a question you got a good answer quickly and normally by more then one player.   The EQ1 community was great for the most part.    It was a group first game and the community was great because of that.  

WoW on the other hand is a solo first game and look at the community because of it.   Point set match.

 

Correlation does not equal Causation.  Sorry, the argument is not valid.  WOW has 2 Mil subscribers, EQ had 500k, that could also be the reason for poor community.  The average Age of the player base could be a reason for community problems.  The fact that WOW allows you to play undead, and EQ does not could ALSO be a reason for poor communities.  

Just because they have different playstyles does not mean that that is the reason for a crappy community.

Logical Fallacy

 

It is not the only reason but it has a lot to do with it.   Simple logic says that when a player needs other players to advance they are more willing to "play nice" which creates a better community.

A good example is EQ but I can use others as well.   Lets look at RL for an example.   The Work place.   People need other people to do their job so they are more willing to "play nice" which creates a good work enviroment.   Its not that hard to understand.

Grouping makes players talk to each other which makes players act nicer to be able to get groups which creates better communities.   Sure their are other reason as well but grouping is a huge factor.   Final Fantasy had/has a good community because of grouping.  

I use EQ as my example because I playged that game for years upon years.  I saw it first hand.   Players helped each other because helping others also helped you.  

It's also a chicken and egg thing.  Does grouping encourage good communities, or do good communities encourage grouping?  I can tell you that being forced to work together does not always breed good communities.  Look at france's telecom.  The workplace situation is so bad there that over 25 people have committed suicide.  That is not indicative of a good workplace community.

Forced Grouping is not the answer.  Lots of good seperate group content, and easy grouping mechanics is the answer.  Trust me if group content was plentiful, and was a lot of fun to do, I gaurantee that I would probably spend more time grouping than I do now.  Right now, content is slewed probably 80/20 towards solo, that balance needs to get closer to 50/50 to really encourage grouping and allowing people to solo.

Originally posted by TdogSkal 

The point still stands.  EQ1 had a better community then WoW.  Reguardless of the "cool" factor the community was good due to grouping.   Based on everything I have seen while playing the game for years upon years it is still the case.

Games that have grouping as the main leveling style have better communities.  Its not that hard to understand.   Its very simple logic.

Gamers need other gamers to advance so they play "nice" which creates friendly communities. 

This pretty much nails it.  Its not chicken or the egg, its a fact.  Was true in EQ, DAOC and SWG.   Players were dependent on other players by design, therefore it "encouraged" them to play nice in the schoolyard.

Without such hooks, players are free to be jerks without consequences.

But back to the OP.  WOW is a bit of an anomoly, since it does have a raiding style end game and more than one casual player has felt betrayed when they got to it and found out the the content was no longer for them. (esp back in Vanilla WOW).  Blizzard has gone out of their way to provide more soloing options in PVP (notice, BG's are all about PUG's) and in daily quests.

Raiding is a forced dependency, and in many cases, if the people you play with aren't good at it, you will fail. (yes, I know WOW's dumbed this down to the PUG level in many cases)

Games like early DAOC had forced dependencies throughout much of the game (around level 20 it became really important) so as the OP said, it really wasn't much diffrerent than WOW's raids, other than the fact it was throughout the life of the game.

But hey, we didn't always group up. On more than one occasion I went out and solo'd, (and took a heal bot if I had to) or played a class that could solo great (Necro's for the win).

We adapted to the game and made it work for us, and the challenge was much more fun than what we find today, where we mog through various quests ad naseum until we get to level cap.

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Grouping should be the primary leveling style in MMOs so that the Communities will be good.   Most of the MMOs today have horrible communities and that all goes back to soloing being the primary leveling style.

 

There has never been a direct relationship between grouping and community in MMOs. To that, people will often reply with "But what about Everquest!"  Everquest drew in the LARPers, PnP gamers and other crowds that were already grouping for fantasy gaming in their everyday life. The community was built on their common goal to play with others that they brought with then to the game.

Forcing people to group - either by making it the only option or by making solo gameplay so undesirable that you have to group - does not build community. Tool to encourage players to work together builds community, and those tools have never been found in any grouping mechanic.

If you look at present day games where grouping is prevalent and the community is a healthy one, you will see that it was the focus on building a positive community that encouraged the grouping, and not the other way around. The best example of that would be A Tale in the Desert.

 

 

Seems like a pretty direct relationship to me.

 

So being able to chat and exchange ideas is not a tool in a group to help build community?

 The relationship is in the opposite direction. Sorry for the lack of clarity there. As for the second point, I am curious why you feel chatting and exchange of interaction are exclusive to code-defined groups.

Ihmotepp as usual you're doing a terrible job trying to say what you want to say.

1. Players raid because of reward. 

2. Raiding isn't devoid of all fun.  It's worse than soloing, which is worse than grouping, but it still has a bit of fun.  Due to large amounts of dev effort being expended on making the bosses more interesting than normal.

Your grouping vs. raiding comparison isn't that different.  And here's why that's bad:

Players are going to do what they want.  Solo, grouping, whatever.  If the game kicks them in the balls for that (by not giving them competitive rewards) they're going to stop playing.

I'm actually having a similar problem, I too dislike the "Forced Soloing" in WoW, my biggest problem is actually finding friends, it's so difficult when your playing in a game where people don't want to know you and they are max level and your not. Seriously is it really that bad to start a new character? For what I understand a majority of WoW players prefer to solo because it's the best way to level and you raid because there's nothing else to do in the game, that's bullshit, that's like saying "Oh lets have low level dungeons and for no reason people forget about them" and it seems like people only care about loot yet it's stupid because the loot you get in a raid will become obsolete when a new expansion comes out, yet that doesn't mean an old instance should be obsolete as well.

What I'm saying is I want finding friends easier and grouping SHOULD be an opinion regardless of your level, not something that gets tossed to the side. Besides, grouping is meant to be fun, why has it became something people want to avoid and all a sudden you want to group at max level?

This again....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdiz0k0Rudw

---

Originally posted by Ihmotepp
What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really? 

---

I'm not sure I'm really getting your point here. I used to group a lot in WoW's pre-BC days. It was fun, but life has crowded in too much, and most group activities (i.e., running the instances) just take too darned long or are too much of a hassle, imo.

So now I almost exclusively solo. Once I've maxxed out at 80 (in WoW) and pretty much milked the solo content dry, I (i) either work on alts or (ii) quit the game for something else.

People that stay on and raid do so because they enjoy it; people like me just leave or roll an alt. It's not complicated. :)

I enjoy grouping and playing with others, I also enjoy playing solo. I left wow for the second time after getting to the end game and raiding and doing dungeons regularly for two months. Basically for me it became too much of a time sink, and was impacting my rl way too much. I just do not have the time to plan out my week based on the nights that raids will be done. Since raiding is the biggest thing in wow my lack of time to raid seriously hurt my ability to enjoy the game, so it was just the right time to take a break from it all and do other things.

"If soloing MMO's is so great, and grouping sucks, why do players raid?"

Obviously, not everybody who plays MMOs wants to solo, and not everybody who enjoys soloing hates grouping. Even some people that don't like grouping will probably do some raiding for the loot.

I wonder why you would ask this question though, Imhotepp. When I mentioned end game in one of your many group vs. solo threads, you stated that grouping and raiding were two different things and that you disliked raiding. Yet here you are, relating raiding to grouping...

Originally posted by Ohatro

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Ohatro

   

In my mind, this is the soloers main beef, not that they despise grouping.  Removing the elite pvp armor from raids would help, and yes I know there are many other factors and not all games do this.   I think loot drops ruined a lot of potential in games period.  Look at what holocrons did to SWG.  That was a group game that turned into a solofest, savage quenker genocide for people grinding through professions they didn't care about.  They were simply rushing through to get to the next good thing.  Kind of like all games now.  People chasing the next great epic gear drop.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Ohatro

 

I don't really follow you here.

If you remove elite pvp armor from raids, why would players be raiding exactly? So they would get....what?

 

 

But that is just it, we don't look at games the same way I guess.  I would ask you why exactly do you need an incentive to go through content you seem to be a fan of?

People are not playing BF2 or COD4 for the loot drops, and I don't remember any such thing in SWG pre-cu either.  I believe the Warren gave you a badge, and the Corvette dropped a schematic for a vehicle, so basically a different looking mount.  Nothing epic there, yet people went through them repeatedly.  Dungeons were content in and of themselves, and we did them, because it was a video game and that was the point of playing.   If someone announced a Dark Jedi Master sighting in the wilderness, there would be 40 players there in 5 minutes, and they never dropped anything.  Why kill him then?  The draw  was the challenge.

This is the way single player games are as well.  You don't plow through a game for any loot.  I joined groups in Champions online because some of the Dungeons were enjoyable, even though nothing useful dropped.

I am not going to find any quotes, but I was under the impression that Raids are frowned upon by most of the community, but my point was that the raids drop things that affect other aspects of gameplay, such as epic armor, which other players not interested in raiding need or they are disadvantaged.  This is what they refer to as forced grouping.  I doubt they hate groups necessarily.  Raids are a separate mechanic in the game, even though it is combat.

Since there are epic drops in some games, it is creating a greedy mentality because players are grouping not for the group, but because they are using others to get the gear for themselves.  I think this is why some despise this style of group experience.   They are not interesting in helping anyone, they are solely there to be rewarded, and there is no other means to earn that reward.  Except that you may not be rewarded, so this makes the group experience they didn't even want, even more frustrating.  They may have to repeat it several times.  So I suggested that the gear be available through other means as well as raids.

If you enjoy group mechanics, why do YOU need incentive to raid?  This is what I don't understand.  If it was some sort of race to get gear or to endstate, then yeah, I could see reason to the complaints.  But I doubt anyone would say the point of mmorpgs is to get to the end as fast as possible, even if players engage in this behavior.

 As I stated, games seem to be quite enjoyable without this incentive, even past MMOs, and I think the addition of epic gear has ruined people's experiences.  Maybe I am an oddball, but I enjoy the content of games, and don't need an incentive or reward for achievements.  A simple badge, xp and some gold is more than adequate.  Same reason why people spend months in FPS games.  Its fun without loot drops. 

Hopefully  I made sense.  And by the way, I think they should be a lot of content at endgame that is absolutely not soloable.  I found it dissappointing to see people soloing NK-Necrosis or Giant Dune Kimoglias right before I quit, but this may just be my personal preference.

 

Ohatro

IMO, that makes no sense. '

If you don't need any incentive, and it's not all about rushing to the cap or getting epic loots, then you could solo to the cap in EQ. It would take you longer, but you just say it's not about a race, and not about loot, so what's the problem?

if you make the content easy to solo, you remove the challenge of grouping. Like a short cut to a race, and everyone that takes the shortcut still gets a trophy. Would I take the long way and feel like I've really accomplished something? Absolutely not. The race is the minimum length you can run and still get the trophy, not some artificial challenge you make up in your head by running extra laps for the hell of it. That would be silly.

Originally posted by sonicbrew

Oh no it's you again OP. You go raid and get your epeen on I could care less what you do with your time and money. You should do the same rest for the rest of us.

I don't raid, and I dont' care what you do with your time and money. If you want to play a solo friendly game like WoW pre-raid I certainly do not care.

However, I'm asking for a game with good group content, and it seems like this somehow offends you.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Grouping should be the primary leveling style in MMOs so that the Communities will be good.   Most of the MMOs today have horrible communities and that all goes back to soloing being the primary leveling style.

 

There has never been a direct relationship between grouping and community in MMOs. To that, people will often reply with "But what about Everquest!"  Everquest drew in the LARPers, PnP gamers and other crowds that were already grouping for fantasy gaming in their everyday life. The community was built on their common goal to play with others that they brought with then to the game.

Forcing people to group - either by making it the only option or by making solo gameplay so undesirable that you have to group - does not build community. Tool to encourage players to work together builds community, and those tools have never been found in any grouping mechanic.

If you look at present day games where grouping is prevalent and the community is a healthy one, you will see that it was the focus on building a positive community that encouraged the grouping, and not the other way around. The best example of that would be A Tale in the Desert.

 

A Tale in the Desert is a forced grouping game.

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by madeux

I grouping is so great, why the hell aren't you out there grouping instead of constantly starting the same arguments over and over and over?

 

OP just backed himself in the corner of extremes.  Trying to pretend that none of today's games have good group content is just child's play.  I can't think of many AAA MMOGs that don't cater to a wide audience with good content for all play styles with maybe the exception of DFO because of the pure PvP format that it is.

 

 

That is not true.  Most of the newer games cater to the solo and instant gradification crowds.   The group content is added as an after though.   Most of the newer games reward solo player more then group play which makes group play pointless.   Why group when you can get more exp soloing?

Its not the games themselfs is the Quest hub game style that has ruined it.   Quests should be meaningful and fun, not pointless and hand holding.

 

Cater to is a lie.  Very big lie.  Grouping in WOTLK I could take a player from 70-80 in 2-3 days in dungeons.  Solo, it took weeks.  So don't try to tell me that you can get more xp solo than group.  Per individual kill, yes.  But not over long periods of time.  Also, don't try to tell me the whaaaaaaaa stories about grouping.  Fact is most of the time most people group with family, friends, and guildies. 

The problem with groups and the community is the community itself.  Ask a question in game and people will either do one of two things.  Refer you to a website or call you a noob.  Most of the time it's the later.  That noob term doesn't exactly give me that warm and fuzzy feeling making me want to go group with them now does it?  Then, Blizzard KILLED community with the comparing of achievements not to mention inspection of gear.  Regardless of how well a person plays, if you don't have the right achievements you are not getting an invite.

If the these games cater to any crowd it's the raiding crowd imho.

 

Obviously you have never played EQ or DAoC.

Days, weeks? And THAT is a big difference? Really?

Originally posted by Mithios

Sorry, but I'm with the OP. I can't understand why people gripe about having to solo, yet they are in fact subscribing to an MMORPG. Do these people know what the MMO part stands for? There are plenty of games out there like Oblivion that are solo games. They are also player supported, so after you run out of the expansions, just install some mods, and it's almost a whole new game. If you don't want to group, then quit being selfish and trying to take away the reason why MMOs were created in the first place and ruin it for the people that subscribe to an MMO "BECAUSE" it's and MMO.

They were made to force grping? First I have heard of this. Someone must be stupid to say that.

I like to solo while leveling but I like to do group things at end game.