Get the best gear and because raiding is the main purpose of end-game, so many people do it, despite many not liking it that much. I can't even be bothered raiding, it's personally not my thing...too repetitive. 

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by flguy147

people raid for 2 reasons.  there is nothing left to do in the game and to get the best gear.  if there were solo ways to get the best gear then i guarantee not as many people would raid.  i cant stand doing raids with punks that act like internet tough guys in raids and yelling at people for messing up.  that is what pushes me to solo more than group.  and i have heard other people say the exact same thing. 

 

I think that's a no brainer. Raiding  requires more effort than playing by yourself. Of course people would solo if they didn't have to raid and got the same gear.

Would anyone raid at the end of WoW at all if they could get the same exact gear solo for the same effort? I seriously doubt it.

 

 

Ihmotepp,

At first, you were making a few points and going back and forth with folks over solo vs groupers.  Now, your real colors are showing.   It is obvious you want all mmorpgs to completely get rid of all solo content because you feel solo contest cheapens your group experience in MMOGs.  You give lip service saying that soloers should be allowed in games, but you honestly don't feel that way.  Everyone knows MMOGs put group content tuck away on maps and in dungeons so if groups want to go do group content they can.  If it was the solo content that was tucked away, how would the solo player get to the solo content if they had to go thru group content to get to it?  It's obvious, you can't stand the solo player or solo player content.  We get it.

 

When I played DAoC or EQ, which many people call "forced grouping" games, there were people that soloed ot the cap, and those people didn't bother me in the least.

The challenging group content that I like was in those games, and the fact that others were taking the solo route had no affect on me.

Take out the challenging group content, and the game isn't fun for me. Many on this thread are advocating exactly that. Don't put in the challenging content like in EQ and DAoC, and then tell me that shouldn't affect me.

How can it not affect me if the game is devoid of the content I enjoy playing?

Put that content in, and I really dont' care if you solo to the cap all day long. That's perfectly fine with me. It's going to take you a bit longer than me if I'm grouping all the time, but if that's what you want to do, why would I care?

Originally posted by Mithios

Sorry, but I'm with the OP. I can't understand why people gripe about having to solo, yet they are in fact subscribing to an MMORPG. Do these people know what the MMO part stands for? There are plenty of games out there like Oblivion that are solo games. They are also player supported, so after you run out of the expansions, just install some mods, and it's almost a whole new game. If you don't want to group, then quit being selfish and trying to take away the reason why MMOs were created in the first place and ruin it for the people that subscribe to an MMO "BECAUSE" it's and MMO.

Well said. I agree.

 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by flguy147

people raid for 2 reasons.  there is nothing left to do in the game and to get the best gear.  if there were solo ways to get the best gear then i guarantee not as many people would raid.  i cant stand doing raids with punks that act like internet tough guys in raids and yelling at people for messing up.  that is what pushes me to solo more than group.  and i have heard other people say the exact same thing. 

 

I think that's a no brainer. Raiding  requires more effort than playing by yourself. Of course people would solo if they didn't have to raid and got the same gear.

Would anyone raid at the end of WoW at all if they could get the same exact gear solo for the same effort? I seriously doubt it.

 

 

Ihmotepp,

At first, you were making a few points and going back and forth with folks over solo vs groupers.  Now, your real colors are showing.   It is obvious you want all mmorpgs to completely get rid of all solo content because you feel solo contest cheapens your group experience in MMOGs.  You give lip service saying that soloers should be allowed in games, but you honestly don't feel that way.  Everyone knows MMOGs put group content tuck away on maps and in dungeons so if groups want to go do group content they can.  If it was the solo content that was tucked away, how would the solo player get to the solo content if they had to go thru group content to get to it?  It's obvious, you can't stand the solo player or solo player content.  We get it.

 

 

When I played DAoC or EQ, which many people call "forced grouping" games, there were people that soloed ot the cap, and those people didn't bother me in the least.

The challenging group content that I like was in those games, and the fact that others were taking the solo route had no affect on me.

Take out the challenging group content, and the game isn't fun for me. Many on this thread are advocating exactly that. Don't put in the challenging content like in EQ and DAoC, and then tell me that shouldn't affect me.

How can it not affect me if the game is devoid of the content I enjoy playing?

Put that content in, and I really dont' care if you solo to the cap all day long. That's perfectly fine with me. It's going to take you a bit longer than me if I'm grouping all the time, but if that's what you want to do, why would I care?

Egypt,

EQ and DAOC were not solo friendly games.  It was only possible to solo if you were the right class.  For most people it was practically impossible to solo to level cap.  In EQ, fighting solo lasted only so long and then advancement slowed to a crawl.  Fighting in a group was the only real way to make progress.  If you didn't group, then it just didn't take a little longer to make level, it took ALOT longer to make level.  So much so that going solo was practically pointless. 

So left with a practically pointless activity, or waiting for a group.  People chose to group.

I've stated this to you in pretty much every thread we have been in.

MOST people play both solo and group.  MOST would group, if it wasn't for the hassle involved.  Solo MUST remain a viable option for those who do not have the time.  Also there must be seperate, unique, and equal content for both solo and group, not group quests capping off solo quest lines.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Ohatro

   

In my mind, this is the soloers main beef, not that they despise grouping.  Removing the elite pvp armor from raids would help, and yes I know there are many other factors and not all games do this.   I think loot drops ruined a lot of potential in games period.  Look at what holocrons did to SWG.  That was a group game that turned into a solofest, savage quenker genocide for people grinding through professions they didn't care about.  They were simply rushing through to get to the next good thing.  Kind of like all games now.  People chasing the next great epic gear drop.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Ohatro

 

I don't really follow you here.

If you remove elite pvp armor from raids, why would players be raiding exactly? So they would get....what?

But that is just it, we don't look at games the same way I guess.  I would ask you why exactly do you need an incentive to go through content you seem to be a fan of?

People are not playing BF2 or COD4 for the loot drops, and I don't remember any such thing in SWG pre-cu either.  I believe the Warren gave you a badge, and the Corvette dropped a schematic for a vehicle, so basically a different looking mount.  Nothing epic there, yet people went through them repeatedly.  Dungeons were content in and of themselves, and we did them, because it was a video game and that was the point of playing.   If someone announced a Dark Jedi Master sighting in the wilderness, there would be 40 players there in 5 minutes, and they never dropped anything.  Why kill him then?  The draw  was the challenge.

This is the way single player games are as well.  You don't plow through a game for any loot.  I joined groups in Champions online because some of the Dungeons were enjoyable, even though nothing useful dropped.

I am not going to find any quotes, but I was under the impression that Raids are frowned upon by most of the community, but my point was that the raids drop things that affect other aspects of gameplay, such as epic armor, which other players not interested in raiding need or they are disadvantaged.  This is what they refer to as forced grouping.  I doubt they hate groups necessarily.  Raids are a separate mechanic in the game, even though it is combat.

Since there are epic drops in some games, it is creating a greedy mentality because players are grouping not for the group, but because they are using others to get the gear for themselves.  I think this is why some despise this style of group experience.   They are not interesting in helping anyone, they are solely there to be rewarded, and there is no other means to earn that reward.  Except that you may not be rewarded, so this makes the group experience they didn't even want, even more frustrating.  They may have to repeat it several times.  So I suggested that the gear be available through other means as well as raids.

If you enjoy group mechanics, why do YOU need incentive to raid?  This is what I don't understand.  If it was some sort of race to get gear or to endstate, then yeah, I could see reason to the complaints.  But I doubt anyone would say the point of mmorpgs is to get to the end as fast as possible, even if players engage in this behavior.

 As I stated, games seem to be quite enjoyable without this incentive, even past MMOs, and I think the addition of epic gear has ruined people's experiences.  Maybe I am an oddball, but I enjoy the content of games, and don't need an incentive or reward for achievements.  A simple badge, xp and some gold is more than adequate.  Same reason why people spend months in FPS games.  Its fun without loot drops. 

Hopefully  I made sense.  And by the way, I think they should be a lot of content at endgame that is absolutely not soloable.  I found it dissappointing to see people soloing NK-Necrosis or Giant Dune Kimoglias right before I quit, but this may just be my personal preference.

Ohatro

Oh no it's you again OP. You go raid and get your epeen on I could care less what you do with your time and money. You should do the same rest for the rest of us.

Originally posted by robert4818

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by flguy147

people raid for 2 reasons.  there is nothing left to do in the game and to get the best gear.  if there were solo ways to get the best gear then i guarantee not as many people would raid.  i cant stand doing raids with punks that act like internet tough guys in raids and yelling at people for messing up.  that is what pushes me to solo more than group.  and i have heard other people say the exact same thing. 

 

I think that's a no brainer. Raiding  requires more effort than playing by yourself. Of course people would solo if they didn't have to raid and got the same gear.

Would anyone raid at the end of WoW at all if they could get the same exact gear solo for the same effort? I seriously doubt it.

 

 

Ihmotepp,

At first, you were making a few points and going back and forth with folks over solo vs groupers.  Now, your real colors are showing.   It is obvious you want all mmorpgs to completely get rid of all solo content because you feel solo contest cheapens your group experience in MMOGs.  You give lip service saying that soloers should be allowed in games, but you honestly don't feel that way.  Everyone knows MMOGs put group content tuck away on maps and in dungeons so if groups want to go do group content they can.  If it was the solo content that was tucked away, how would the solo player get to the solo content if they had to go thru group content to get to it?  It's obvious, you can't stand the solo player or solo player content.  We get it.

 

 

When I played DAoC or EQ, which many people call "forced grouping" games, there were people that soloed ot the cap, and those people didn't bother me in the least.

The challenging group content that I like was in those games, and the fact that others were taking the solo route had no affect on me.

Take out the challenging group content, and the game isn't fun for me. Many on this thread are advocating exactly that. Don't put in the challenging content like in EQ and DAoC, and then tell me that shouldn't affect me.

How can it not affect me if the game is devoid of the content I enjoy playing?

Put that content in, and I really dont' care if you solo to the cap all day long. That's perfectly fine with me. It's going to take you a bit longer than me if I'm grouping all the time, but if that's what you want to do, why would I care?

 

Egypt,

EQ and DAOC were not solo friendly games.  It was only possible to solo if you were the right class.  For most people it was practically impossible to solo to level cap.  In EQ, fighting solo lasted only so long and then advancement slowed to a crawl.  Fighting in a group was the only real way to make progress.  If you didn't group, then it just didn't take a little longer to make level, it took ALOT longer to make level.  So much so that going solo was practically pointless. 

So left with a practically pointless activity, or waiting for a group.  People chose to group.

I've stated this to you in pretty much every thread we have been in.

MOST people play both solo and group.  MOST would group, if it wasn't for the hassle involved.  Solo MUST remain a viable option for those who do not have the time.  Also there must be seperate, unique, and equal content for both solo and group, not group quests capping off solo quest lines.

That is simply not true.  Any class could solo, sure some were better then others but all classes could solo.   It was an option at all times for all players.   That is how it should be.   Grouping should be the primary way of leveling with soloing being an option for those that choose that.

I soloed with my Dwarf Warrior and I grouped with my Dwarf warrior.   I also had a Necro main, that I both soloed and grouped.  Sure my Necro could solo anything in the game that did not summon but my warrior could solo just fine.   Sure my Necro soloed faster and better but my Warrior could solo just fine.

My Necro is lvl 80 (just stop playing again) and my Warrior is lvl 70.    I played EQ for years and I do know what I am talking about. 

Today's MMOs have made soloing the fastest and primary leveling style and that is wrong, that has ruined MMOs for me and many others.  Sure I understand I am the minority here but most of the "old school" players, players that played MMOs before WoW understand that Grouping was fun, it build good communities, it help create friendships with people all over the world. 

Grouping should be the primary leveling style in MMOs so that the Communities will be good.   Most of the MMOs today have horrible communities and that all goes back to soloing being the primary leveling style.

Originally posted by robert4818

EQ and DAOC were not solo friendly games.  It was only possible to solo if you were the right class.  For most people it was practically impossible to solo to level cap.  In EQ, fighting solo lasted only so long and then advancement slowed to a crawl.  Fighting in a group was the only real way to make progress.  If you didn't group, then it just didn't take a little longer to make level, it took ALOT longer to make level.  So much so that going solo was practically pointless. 

As someone who leveled multiple clerics up in EQ, I agree it was harder soloing for some classes but it was not impossible and certainly no harder than leveling up a Holy Priest in WoW. Support classes will always take longer to level solo due to their lack of DPS, but I think that is part of the reason why those classes feel so much more fulfilling to play.
 

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Grouping should be the primary leveling style in MMOs so that the Communities will be good.   Most of the MMOs today have horrible communities and that all goes back to soloing being the primary leveling style.

There has never been a direct relationship between grouping and community in MMOs. To that, people will often reply with "But what about Everquest!"  Everquest drew in the LARPers, PnP gamers and other crowds that were already grouping for fantasy gaming in their everyday life. The community was built on their common goal to play with others that they brought with then to the game.

Forcing people to group - either by making it the only option or by making solo gameplay so undesirable that you have to group - does not build community. Tool to encourage players to work together builds community, and those tools have never been found in any grouping mechanic.

If you look at present day games where grouping is prevalent and the community is a healthy one, you will see that it was the focus on building a positive community that encouraged the grouping, and not the other way around. The best example of that would be A Tale in the Desert.

In many MMOs there is a large number if not a majority of players who never reach the level cap. These players don't participate in raiding or any other end game activity. These casual players are just as important to the game companies as the more serious players and are for the most part unseen on a site like this.

The players who level a char to the cap, see the end game and quit or level another alt don't contribute to the end game population either.

Like it or not raiding has always been a niche activity. A game company can cater to a niche market within a game as long as it pays the bills and does not ruin the game play of much larger player populations. In WOW Blizzard has had to work on making raiding more accessible because earlier in its history around 1% of players ever spent time raiding.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

The argument I am hearing from solo players is you can't make the game as hard to level solo as EQ. That's just not solo friendly enough! Why, I can't stand around LFG all the time. I've got to walk the baby and change the dogs diapers! You expect me to group to make fast progress? That's unheard of! That game will fail! The game MUST be as easy to level as WoW or you're trying to FORCE me to group with you. I won't make xp as fast as a group? Impossible! Don't force me! I won't stand for it. No, no, no! The modern game must let solo just as easy as grouping to level up. Yes, that's the ONLY design that's viable. Nothing else will work. The game MUST be like WoW or it cannot succeed!

And then you get to the end game and what? you quit? Every single solo player that is on these threads complaining about how they would never play a "forced grouping game" (meaning you dont' level as fast solo as in a group) quits when they get to the end game?

What about in RvR when you need a guild or you get your butt handed to you solo? You quit playing that too, and go find another solo friendly game so you can level solo just as fast as grouping?

 If encouraging grouping is such a horrible game design, destined to fail, why are people raiding at the end of all the mMORPGs?

Raiding is even MORE time consuming and forced than grouping in EQ. So how is raiding ok, but encouraging grouping before the end game is such a horrible crime, and destined to fail?

I like a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC myself. I don't really care for the raid, but seems like a lot of players are doing it. You're telling me players dont' mind raiding, but if they can't solo as fast as WoW they won't play the game? Really?

How is playing the end game in WoW, and playing a game like EQ that encourages grouping before the end game, so terribly different?

I'm seriously asking.

 

  You really couldn't figure out the difference without asking someone? There is a huge difference in leveling solo without grouping than raiding at end game. Since you can't seem to come up with reasons yourself, I will give you a couple. Some people do not wish to sit around for hours on end waiting for a group just so they can level. They sure as hell do not want to do it If they can not be online all day long. Not to mention some people just do nto like half the stupid bastards they end up having to group with  ... especially in WoW where idiocy seems to run rampant. So why do these same people want to raid you ask? Most guilds depending on what game you  re playing ... schedule raids. Raids actually end up being a small part of the play time for the week compared to everything else the player will do in game even after they hit max level.

 Myself? I like grouping alot, I prefer a game to have solo content throughout though so I do not waste my time. Am I against games dedicated to grouping? I am not, but I think most companies realize they need both in the long run especially for longevity of a game.

Originally posted by flguy147

many people raid for 2 reasons.  there is nothing left to do in the game and to get the best gear.  if there were solo ways to get the best gear then i guarantee not as many people would raid.  i cant stand doing raids with punks that act like internet tough guys in raids and yelling at people for messing up.  that is what pushes me to solo more than group.  and i have heard other people say the exact same thing. 

This is my experience with WoW in a nutshell.   People over there treat the game like a job whereas I am there to have fun.   It turned me off completely from WoW quite frankly.   MY current favorite game is City of Heroes where it's fairly easy to pick up the slack if someone messes up and laugh at the guy who got obliterated in teh opening strike.   The raids over there...well I can only speak for the Mothership raid,  but it is more forgiving than any other raid I've ever seen or heard about.  As long as you know what you are doing in a team atmosphere you will do fine.  Having 4 teams working at once isn't that big of a deal.

In fact this is where CoH shines when compared to alot of other MMO's.   Teaming is easy,quick, fun, and rewarding in CoH.   It is the only MMO I've ever found that to be true.    On WoW you have to pull teeth to get people to team up wiht you in the low levels and when you finally get to content that you need to team with everyone expects you to innately know exactly how your character works in a team enviroment.  CO ditto,  LOTRO Ditto,  EQ2 Ditto, AoC Ditto 

The main problem alot of MMO's have is alot of the content is just designed for solo play.  when you group up to do it you are bringing overkill to bear.   As a result someone who is less experienced with the content is not relly learning anything.    In City, weather you like the missiosn or not,   The missions scale to the people you bring.  When you get into the higher levels this scaleing falls apart. but by that point you are well versed in how to opperate as a team plus the game is balanced enough to allow other players to fill in gaps in an emergency.   It's not like WoW where losing one guy spells doom for the entire raid.  You can wipe in CoH but most of the time people laugh about it, brush themselves off, and try again with a slightly differnt tactic.  It doesn't take forever and a day to get back there.

This just all stems back to how the Content is presented to us.   Open world content, for the most part,  is solo content.  IT has to be.  Otherwise people wouldn't be able to get from point A to point B without a full group with them.  In City and I believe Anarchy Online that content is instanced and scaled to your party.   IT provides ready made challenges for your entire group at a moments notice.   You aren't nesicerraly doing one dungeons over and over again for 5 levels.  This is where people have a disconnect wiht raiding and even large group content in games like WoW.  

The first "RAID" I went on, I was lvl 70.  Nobody in the raid believed it was my first time until my brothers, both guild officers, confirmed it.  I was decked out in gear.  While waiting for everyone to get their I beat all of their top members in duals, including their hunter who I beat without even taking out my pet (I was a Warlock).  

I went as a favor because my brothers needed some DPS.

I spent most of my high lvl time in PVP.  I just didn't have the HOURS required to raid, and I felt it wasn't fair to them.

The fact is, most people don't seriously raid.  It's a small portion of the hardcore players.  Honestly, the top raiding guilds required you to commit to 4 hours a night, 3 days a week.  Who the fuck can do that?

I grouping is so great, why the hell aren't you out there grouping instead of constantly starting the same arguments over and over and over?

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Grouping should be the primary leveling style in MMOs so that the Communities will be good.   Most of the MMOs today have horrible communities and that all goes back to soloing being the primary leveling style.

 

There has never been a direct relationship between grouping and community in MMOs. To that, people will often reply with "But what about Everquest!"  Everquest drew in the LARPers, PnP gamers and other crowds that were already grouping for fantasy gaming in their everyday life. The community was built on their common goal to play with others that they brought with then to the game.

Forcing people to group - either by making it the only option or by making solo gameplay so undesirable that you have to group - does not build community. Tool to encourage players to work together builds community, and those tools have never been found in any grouping mechanic.

If you look at present day games where grouping is prevalent and the community is a healthy one, you will see that it was the focus on building a positive community that encouraged the grouping, and not the other way around. The best example of that would be A Tale in the Desert.

 

I disagree with you.   The communities of games that have forced grouping (I hate that term because no such thing as forced) are normally great communites because of the grouping.   People will remember if you did something stupid or took an item without permission.   Grouping games tend to have a better community because you have to rely on others to help you.  
 

EQ is a great example of that.   EQ had one of the best communities I have ever been apart of, most people were helpful to the point of dropping what they were doing to help you with a issue, most of the time it was corpses runs.   

Like I said in my last post, my main in EQ was a Necro, I cannot tell you how many times I stopped leveling to go help some poor soul that died some place they could not get to.   I would go and summon their corpse, most of the time free of charge.   Why?  Because I had been in the same spot before and got help from players I never even talked to before.   That is why EQ had a great community because the game forced you to rely on others to help yourself.    That is what is missing today.

Grouping games have always had good communities, sure every game has its share of asshats but for the most part "forced" grouping = good community.

Originally posted by madeux

I grouping is so great, why the hell aren't you out there grouping instead of constantly starting the same arguments over and over and over?

OP just backed himself in the corner of extremes.  Trying to pretend that none of today's games have good group content is just child's play.  I can't think of many AAA MMOGs that don't cater to a wide audience with good content for all play styles with maybe the exception of DFO because of the pure PvP format that it is.

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by madeux

I grouping is so great, why the hell aren't you out there grouping instead of constantly starting the same arguments over and over and over?

 

OP just backed himself in the corner of extremes.  Trying to pretend that none of today's games have good group content is just child's play.  I can't think of many AAA MMOGs that don't cater to a wide audience with good content for all play styles with maybe the exception of DFO because of the pure PvP format that it is.

 

That is not true.  Most of the newer games cater to the solo and instant gradification crowds.   The group content is added as an after though.   Most of the newer games reward solo player more then group play which makes group play pointless.   Why group when you can get more exp soloing?

Its not the games themselfs is the Quest hub game style that has ruined it.   Quests should be meaningful and fun, not pointless and hand holding.

I haven't raided anything beyond Blackwing Lair. I just don't like jumping through hoops. I don't like having to go read an internet walkthrough for a fight in a video game. If players can't describe what to do in a few miniutes of typeing, I guess the encounter is not for me. And gear really isn't that important to me either, so why even bother? Instead of raiding, I usually farm stuff, help out low level friends, or just PvP. The PvE raids are just stupid anymore. Difficult for the sake of being difficult. The only thing I do miss is being able to see the new areas and monsters. But I can live without it. That's one of the reasons I liked the big raids so much; with 40 people around to kill stuff, 2 or 3 that are just sight-seeing isn't really going to hamper the raid.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Grouping should be the primary leveling style in MMOs so that the Communities will be good.   Most of the MMOs today have horrible communities and that all goes back to soloing being the primary leveling style.

 

There has never been a direct relationship between grouping and community in MMOs. To that, people will often reply with "But what about Everquest!"  Everquest drew in the LARPers, PnP gamers and other crowds that were already grouping for fantasy gaming in their everyday life. The community was built on their common goal to play with others that they brought with then to the game.

Forcing people to group - either by making it the only option or by making solo gameplay so undesirable that you have to group - does not build community. Tool to encourage players to work together builds community, and those tools have never been found in any grouping mechanic.

If you look at present day games where grouping is prevalent and the community is a healthy one, you will see that it was the focus on building a positive community that encouraged the grouping, and not the other way around. The best example of that would be A Tale in the Desert.

 

I disagree with you.   The communities of games that have forced grouping (I hate that term because no such thing as forced) are normally great communites because of the grouping.   People will remember if you did something stupid or took an item without permission.   Grouping games tend to have a better community because you have to rely on others to help you.  
 

EQ is a great example of that.   EQ had one of the best communities I have ever been apart of, most people were helpful to the point of dropping what they were doing to help you with a issue, most of the time it was corpses runs.   

Like I said in my last post, my main in EQ was a Necro, I cannot tell you how many times I stopped leveling to go help some poor soul that died some place they could not get to.   I would go and summon their corpse, most of the time free of charge.   Why?  Because I had been in the same spot before and got help from players I never even talked to before.   That is why EQ had a great community because the game forced you to rely on others to help yourself.    That is what is missing today.

Grouping games have always had good communities, sure every game has its share of asshats but for the most part "forced" grouping = good community.

 

You couldn't have possibly read beyond the first line of my reply.

For a lot of people, the fun is in the journey.  They lvl to max, then they lvl other characters to max.  It's not a mad rush to reach max so you can go get all precious gear.

From this thread, and many other posts, this is something a lot of people just don't understand.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Grouping should be the primary leveling style in MMOs so that the Communities will be good.   Most of the MMOs today have horrible communities and that all goes back to soloing being the primary leveling style.

 

There has never been a direct relationship between grouping and community in MMOs. To that, people will often reply with "But what about Everquest!"  Everquest drew in the LARPers, PnP gamers and other crowds that were already grouping for fantasy gaming in their everyday life. The community was built on their common goal to play with others that they brought with then to the game.

Forcing people to group - either by making it the only option or by making solo gameplay so undesirable that you have to group - does not build community. Tool to encourage players to work together builds community, and those tools have never been found in any grouping mechanic.

If you look at present day games where grouping is prevalent and the community is a healthy one, you will see that it was the focus on building a positive community that encouraged the grouping, and not the other way around. The best example of that would be A Tale in the Desert.

 

I disagree with you.   The communities of games that have forced grouping (I hate that term because no such thing as forced) are normally great communites because of the grouping.   People will remember if you did something stupid or took an item without permission.   Grouping games tend to have a better community because you have to rely on others to help you.  
 

EQ is a great example of that.   EQ had one of the best communities I have ever been apart of, most people were helpful to the point of dropping what they were doing to help you with a issue, most of the time it was corpses runs.   

Like I said in my last post, my main in EQ was a Necro, I cannot tell you how many times I stopped leveling to go help some poor soul that died some place they could not get to.   I would go and summon their corpse, most of the time free of charge.   Why?  Because I had been in the same spot before and got help from players I never even talked to before.   That is why EQ had a great community because the game forced you to rely on others to help yourself.    That is what is missing today.

Grouping games have always had good communities, sure every game has its share of asshats but for the most part "forced" grouping = good community.

 

 

You couldn't have possibly read beyond the first line of my reply.

I did and I though I answered your points very well.

I think that the grouping mechanic creates the need to make a good community because players have to rely on others to advance which forces players to be "nice" to others.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Grouping should be the primary leveling style in MMOs so that the Communities will be good.   Most of the MMOs today have horrible communities and that all goes back to soloing being the primary leveling style.

 

There has never been a direct relationship between grouping and community in MMOs. To that, people will often reply with "But what about Everquest!"  Everquest drew in the LARPers, PnP gamers and other crowds that were already grouping for fantasy gaming in their everyday life. The community was built on their common goal to play with others that they brought with then to the game.

Forcing people to group - either by making it the only option or by making solo gameplay so undesirable that you have to group - does not build community. Tool to encourage players to work together builds community, and those tools have never been found in any grouping mechanic.

If you look at present day games where grouping is prevalent and the community is a healthy one, you will see that it was the focus on building a positive community that encouraged the grouping, and not the other way around. The best example of that would be A Tale in the Desert.

 

Seems like a pretty direct relationship to me.

So being able to chat and exchange ideas is not a tool in a group to help build community?

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by madeux

I grouping is so great, why the hell aren't you out there grouping instead of constantly starting the same arguments over and over and over?

 

OP just backed himself in the corner of extremes.  Trying to pretend that none of today's games have good group content is just child's play.  I can't think of many AAA MMOGs that don't cater to a wide audience with good content for all play styles with maybe the exception of DFO because of the pure PvP format that it is.

 

 

That is not true.  Most of the newer games cater to the solo and instant gradification crowds.   The group content is added as an after though.   Most of the newer games reward solo player more then group play which makes group play pointless.   Why group when you can get more exp soloing?

Its not the games themselfs is the Quest hub game style that has ruined it.   Quests should be meaningful and fun, not pointless and hand holding.

Cater to is a lie.  Very big lie.  Grouping in WOTLK I could take a player from 70-80 in 2-3 days in dungeons.  Solo, it took weeks.  So don't try to tell me that you can get more xp solo than group.  Per individual kill, yes.  But not over long periods of time.  Also, don't try to tell me the whaaaaaaaa stories about grouping.  Fact is most of the time most people group with family, friends, and guildies. 

The problem with groups and the community is the community itself.  Ask a question in game and people will either do one of two things.  Refer you to a website or call you a noob.  Most of the time it's the later.  That noob term doesn't exactly give me that warm and fuzzy feeling making me want to go group with them now does it?  Then, Blizzard KILLED community with the comparing of achievements not to mention inspection of gear.  Regardless of how well a person plays, if you don't have the right achievements you are not getting an invite.

If the these games cater to any crowd it's the raiding crowd imho.

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by madeux

I grouping is so great, why the hell aren't you out there grouping instead of constantly starting the same arguments over and over and over?

 

OP just backed himself in the corner of extremes.  Trying to pretend that none of today's games have good group content is just child's play.  I can't think of many AAA MMOGs that don't cater to a wide audience with good content for all play styles with maybe the exception of DFO because of the pure PvP format that it is.

 

 

That is not true.  Most of the newer games cater to the solo and instant gradification crowds.   The group content is added as an after though.   Most of the newer games reward solo player more then group play which makes group play pointless.   Why group when you can get more exp soloing?

Its not the games themselfs is the Quest hub game style that has ruined it.   Quests should be meaningful and fun, not pointless and hand holding.

 

Cater to is a lie.  Very big lie.  Grouping in WOTLK I could take a player from 70-80 in 2-3 days in dungeons.  Solo, it took weeks.  So don't try to tell me that you can get more xp solo than group.  Per individual kill, yes.  But not over long periods of time.  Also, don't try to tell me the whaaaaaaaa stories about grouping.  Fact is most of the time most people group with family, friends, and guildies. 

The problem with groups and the community is the community itself.  Ask a question in game and people will either do one of two things.  Refer you to a website or call you a noob.  Most of the time it's the later.  That noob term doesn't exactly give me that warm and fuzzy feeling making me want to go group with them now does it?  Then, Blizzard KILLED community with the comparing of achievements not to mention inspection of gear.  Regardless of how well a person plays, if you don't have the right achievements you are not getting an invite.

If the these games cater to any crowd it's the raiding crowd imho.

 

WoW caters to the solo and instant gradification crowd and to a lesser extent the raiding crowd.    Never played WOTLK so I would not know. I quit long before that expantion.

In EQ PuG grouping was the norm, most of the groups were PuGs not friends, family or guilds but random players from different guilds.   That is how a grouping game normally works.   I would never ever PUG in WoW, EVER.  The community is horrible. 

See EQ did not have that problem for the most part with community.   If you asked a question you got a good answer quickly and normally by more then one player.   The EQ1 community was great for the most part.    It was a group first game and the community was great because of that.  

WoW on the other hand is a solo first game and look at the community because of it.   Point set match.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by madeux

I grouping is so great, why the hell aren't you out there grouping instead of constantly starting the same arguments over and over and over?

 

OP just backed himself in the corner of extremes.  Trying to pretend that none of today's games have good group content is just child's play.  I can't think of many AAA MMOGs that don't cater to a wide audience with good content for all play styles with maybe the exception of DFO because of the pure PvP format that it is.

 

 

That is not true.  Most of the newer games cater to the solo and instant gradification crowds.   The group content is added as an after though.   Most of the newer games reward solo player more then group play which makes group play pointless.   Why group when you can get more exp soloing?

Its not the games themselfs is the Quest hub game style that has ruined it.   Quests should be meaningful and fun, not pointless and hand holding.

 

Cater to is a lie.  Very big lie.  Grouping in WOTLK I could take a player from 70-80 in 2-3 days in dungeons.  Solo, it took weeks.  So don't try to tell me that you can get more xp solo than group.  Per individual kill, yes.  But not over long periods of time.  Also, don't try to tell me the whaaaaaaaa stories about grouping.  Fact is most of the time most people group with family, friends, and guildies. 

The problem with groups and the community is the community itself.  Ask a question in game and people will either do one of two things.  Refer you to a website or call you a noob.  Most of the time it's the later.  That noob term doesn't exactly give me that warm and fuzzy feeling making me want to go group with them now does it?  Then, Blizzard KILLED community with the comparing of achievements not to mention inspection of gear.  Regardless of how well a person plays, if you don't have the right achievements you are not getting an invite.

If the these games cater to any crowd it's the raiding crowd imho.

 

 

WoW caters to the solo and instant gradification crowd and to a lesser extent the raiding crowd.    Never played WOTLK so I would not know. I quit long before that expantion.

In EQ PuG grouping was the norm, most of the groups were PuGs not friends, family or guilds but random players from different guilds.   That is how a grouping game normally works.   I would never ever PUG in WoW, EVER.  The community is horrible. 

See EQ did not have that problem for the most part with community.   If you asked a question you got a good answer quickly and normally by more then one player.   The EQ1 community was great for the most part.    It was a group first game and the community was great because of that.  

WoW on the other hand is a solo first game and look at the community because of it.   Point set match.

EQ1 community was still when MMOG gaming "wasn't cool".  Gaming was still for the "computer nerds".  Fast forward to just before WoW and EQ2 coming out, MMO gaming started reaching mass appeal.  With WoW, it brought all the BNet Kiddies to for front and communities across the board went down hill from there.     Now, it's point set match.  Good game.