http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=19377967869&sid=1&pageNo=1

I mean I can understand the Why, but I mean this is a slippery slope isn't it? What is next STV gankers banned for camping, I mean some people would like that, but when you start doing it on a pvp server?  Or start banning people for tagging mobs.

Its just a little too much in my opinion.

You mean people who scam are getting banned for scamming? What's next, other rule breakers getting the boot?

Say it ain't so, Joe!

You're probably a ninja.

While this will be hard to enforce, I'm totally in favor of it.

It's mainly about raid ninjas and raid leaders who change the loot system midstream to benefit themseleves and their buddies.

I think the spirit of the rules is good, but I am not so sold on the implementation.  It seems such things should stay in the domain of the players with GM's getting involved as a last resort.

I guess we'll see how this works.

Good idea or not, it is sure to create lots of headaches for Blizzard's GM staff.

And on another, dead horse topic, this surely doesn't help the case for group based content.  When you play solo, you never have to deal with this BS. 

 Doesnt have to be permban, keep that in mind. if someone ninja's an item  a 24 hour ban seems fair in my opinion. ninja-ing is scamming and is illegal in the agreement terms of blizzard

Just a question:  Is the ninja looting and loot scamming problem that bad?

It has been a while since I have raided, so I am curious from those who do raid, if this really is a major problem (any more so than in the past).

 i quit recently ago, but i think it doesn't have to be a major issue. its  ILLEGAL IN TERMS OF AGREEMENT AND PEOPLE WHO BREAK THE WOW LAW MUST BE PUNISHED.  in WoW blizzard is teh cops and you must listen, end of discussioN!

Originally posted by Omali

You mean people who scam are getting banned for scamming? What's next, other rule breakers getting the boot?

Say it ain't so, Joe!

Sort of the point, the scams arent breaking the game code or actual Chinese scams really. They are just using a game mechanic that exists in game, if blizz didnt want it done that way, then they need to redo how it is coded not start banning people.

For the most part this is done by Raid leaders anyway.

And what happens if before the raid while the group is forming he goes afk, I say in chat ok we agree to roll greed on every item.

Can I use that as evidence he should not have rolled need on a particular item and get him banned. I'm telling you it will get out of hand. And no I myself do not ninja, I dont realistically raid enough to do it lol, I get my gear from killing people and the occasional 5 man.

I say ban people that use DKP's or a favor system...well anything other than basic random roll.

I dont mind Blizzard playing the cops in their game. They have the ability to read all the chat logs to verify what was said before during and after the raid so they are the only ones in a position to police the scammers.

Now if WoW had open world PvP and player looting Blizzard could save a lot of money by letting the players fix the problem themselves

Losing an item isn't fun, but Blizzard shouldn't step in; instead Blizzard should think about implementing mechanics to prevent such behavior.  I believe the OP is correct here: if Blizzard is willing to take action in these cases will they do so with others, such as ganking?  

a ban humz.. i vote for a public hanging of ninja's of some sort but a ban.. meh

There is a huge difference between someone abusing the leadership role in a pick up raid to steal all the items and someone getting ganked, because they were pvp flagged.

In order to get killed by another player you would need to be pvp flagged which shows a choice by the player getting killed.  They opted into the pvp system and there is no guarantee of a fair fight. 

Blizzard Scam Policy

Talks directly about using misinformation, confusion and fraud to gain at the expense of other players.

I have not seen anything like this happen, but I am glad blizzard is taking action.  It would be better if they just worked something into the game to prevent this and hopefully they will.  Either way, positive action against negative players is good. 

When i used to play on Feathermoon during Burning Crusade the players took matters into their own hands and the forums had a special post listing known repeat ninjas, such people found it hard to get into any groups as a result. in fact in 3 years I only ever experienced one such ninja. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

There is a huge difference between someone abusing the leadership role in a pick up raid to steal all the items and someone getting ganked, because they were pvp flagged.

In order to get killed by another player you would need to be pvp flagged which shows a choice by the player getting killed.  They opted into the pvp system and there is no guarantee of a fair fight. 

 

Blizzard Scam Policy

Talks directly about using misinformation, confusion and fraud to gain at the expense of other players.

 

I have not seen anything like this happen, but I am glad blizzard is taking action.  It would be better if they just worked something into the game to prevent this and hopefully they will.  Either way, positive action against negative players is good. 

WTF?  All part of the game play over in EVE.  Bunch o' WOW carebears

Blizzard should stay out of it.  Change the game mechanics if they must, but direct intervention should almost never happen.

Originally posted by Surfrider

Losing an item isn't fun, but Blizzard shouldn't step in; instead Blizzard should think about implementing mechanics to prevent such behavior.  I believe the OP is correct here: if Blizzard is willing to take action in these cases will they do so with others, such as ganking?  

As a staff memeber you should clearly list when you are writing your opinion.

I completely agree though. First thing they need to do is figure out if an intended mechanic in trading (etc) is not working properly. If the scam is entirely confindence based then they could consider adding an additional warning and confirmation window.

In the end though you can scam anyone no matter the mechanic with a confidence scam. Course often complaints are by people who sold something (or traded) without knowing the value of an item and regret the trade. This could easily lead to Blizzard punishing someone for doing nothing wrong, but the seller simply wanted revenge.

Originally posted by Vyava

Originally posted by Surfrider

Losing an item isn't fun, but Blizzard shouldn't step in; instead Blizzard should think about implementing mechanics to prevent such behavior.  I believe the OP is correct here: if Blizzard is willing to take action in these cases will they do so with others, such as ganking?  

 

As a staff memeber you should clearly list when you are writing your opinion.

I completely agree though. First thing they need to do is figure out if an intended mechanic in trading (etc) is not working properly. If the scam is entirely confindence based then they could consider adding an additional warning and confirmation window.

In the end though you can scam anyone no matter the mechanic with a confidence scam. Course often complaints are by people who sold something (or traded) without knowing the value of an item and regret the trade. This could easily lead to Blizzard punishing someone for doing nothing wrong, but the seller simply wanted revenge.

The problem here is not that the loot mechanics are broken or that the item was "ninja'd".  It is that Blizzard had not, in the past, looked at any kind of master looting as potentially falling under their already existing scam policy.  People got too used to being able to take items with no penalties other than a loss of reputation on the server.  (And now with server transfers, name changes, and faction transfers, even that is hard to pin down.)

Even the person who received the suspension in the case noted that a roll was done on the item and it was just because the roll did not turn out in his or her favor that the choice was made to ignore any agreements and just take the item.  It is also obvious that it was the intent from the start and saying that other people did not put as much work into getting said item is a thin excuse for a justification.

Now, can Blizzard look into ways to make such thievery harder (or impossible) by changing the loot systems?  Maybe.  They have made improvements in other areas that have helped cut down on scams (being able to sell enchants on scrolls being one of them), but those kinds of changes take time.  We don't know they aren't working on something even as we type.

Until that point, though, it is good that people know there are rules.  That they can't always do whatever they please just because "it is only a game" and they don't know the other people involved.  As long as Blizzard maintains their current scam rules (meaning their actions are based on what they can prove internally with logs), then I see this as an improvement to their customer service rather than a slippery slope that will lead them to ban gankers in STV on a PvP server.  Such exaggerated claims about what this will lead to are, at best, fear mongering and I appreciate them no more here than I do in the wide world of politics.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Blizzard Scam Policy...

Talks directly about using misinformation, confusion and fraud to gain at the expense of other players.

The policy also states:

I grouped with a "ninja-looter," can I get the item that I am entitled to returned?
Players that loot an item out of turn or against the group's wishes do not meet the criteria for scamming, and will not be investigated by the GM Staff.

In no way am I condoning such behavior, but I'd rather Blizzard think of better mechanics.  If Blizzard is working towards having more puggable events/dungeons, they need to think about how to prevent these types of situations.  Guilds rarely have to worry about such, because presumably you know the people you're grouping with.  This isn't the case so much with PUGs.

Originally posted by Surfrider

The policy also states:

I grouped with a "ninja-looter," can I get the item that I am entitled to returned?
Players that loot an item out of turn or against the group's wishes do not meet the criteria for scamming, and will not be investigated by the GM Staff.

I dont mind Blizzard setting a policy one way or another as long as they enforce the standard. I do have an issue with Blizzard having this policy and knowing first hand that they do not follow it.

I have guildmates who have had ninjad items returned to them via in game mail by GMs after filing a petition. So yes they are investigating ninja-looters and taking action (returning the items).

Originally posted by Korhindi

Just a question:  Is the ninja looting and loot scamming problem that bad?

It has been a while since I have raided, so I am curious from those who do raid, if this really is a major problem (any more so than in the past).

Obviously not for guild raids or established raid groups... In my server there are several people from big guilds that are not allowed to raid with their alters in their guild raids, so they make pick-up raids where the loot scamming is quite common.

Originally posted by Surfrider

Originally posted by Daffid011

Blizzard Scam Policy...

Talks directly about using misinformation, confusion and fraud to gain at the expense of other players.

 

The policy also states:

I grouped with a "ninja-looter," can I get the item that I am entitled to returned?
Players that loot an item out of turn or against the group's wishes do not meet the criteria for scamming, and will not be investigated by the GM Staff.

 

In no way am I condoning such behavior, but I'd rather Blizzard think of better mechanics.  If Blizzard is working towards having more puggable events/dungeons, they need to think about how to prevent these types of situations.  Guilds rarely have to worry about such, because presumably you know the people you're grouping with.  This isn't the case so much with PUGs.

I still agree with you that, assuming there are such "better mechanics" out there, the best solution is to find a way to prevent such events from happening.  But I still think it is being missed that the situation as described *does* fall more into the scam policy than it does a ninja-looting situation.

Having a group loot situation and then switching to master just before the boss with the item you want, agreeing to let everyone roll on said item, then ignoring all agreements and taking it anyway goes beyond a simple ninja.  Had it been master looter all along and had there been no agreements to roll for items, then sure.  Let the PuGger beware.  Once you lure people in to help you steal an item by making false promises to them, though, you are a scammer and should be dealt with as such.

I maintain that the problem here is not that they started enforcing their scam policy now, but that they never did before.

Originally posted by Surfrider

Originally posted by Daffid011

Blizzard Scam Policy...

Talks directly about using misinformation, confusion and fraud to gain at the expense of other players.

 

The policy also states:

I grouped with a "ninja-looter," can I get the item that I am entitled to returned?
Players that loot an item out of turn or against the group's wishes do not meet the criteria for scamming, and will not be investigated by the GM Staff.

 

In no way am I condoning such behavior, but I'd rather Blizzard think of better mechanics.  If Blizzard is working towards having more puggable events/dungeons, they need to think about how to prevent these types of situations.  Guilds rarely have to worry about such, because presumably you know the people you're grouping with.  This isn't the case so much with PUGs.

The ninja looter provision is aimed at situations where a loot option was set and agreed on by the party, but one of the party members broke that trust and ninja looted an item according to the agreed upon loot rules. 

The raid leader situation is one where the leadership uses confusion and misinformation to gain the rewards at the expense of the other players. 

I did agree that an in game mechanic would handle the situation better.  If nothing more than a popup confirmation box to let the raid know the loot options have changed would be better than nothing. 

The reason this is becoming an issue is a result of pug raids becoming successful and now people are creating ways to exploit a new found resource.  Blizzard will react to the new situation with some sort of resolution.  They have been really good about addressing problems.

I think the fact that Blizz is taking steps, any steps at all, is a good thing.  It seems that just in the past month or two, ninja looters have sprung up like crazy (part of the reason a good chunk of us left our old guild to form a new one).  I don't know if it's just my server or universal, but you'll see crap like four guildies starting a 25-man PUG and keep everything to themselves.  Eventually the word gets out, but in most cases people remember the guild name over the player name and it's a trivial matter to dissolve the guild and remake with a different name, vs having to spend some IRL money for a name change. 

I'm curious to hear people's suggestions on how to improve the mechanics of the looting system to prevent ninjaring.  I've been in instances where Need before Greed was used, which IMO is incredibly bad (as a priest I wasn't allowed to roll on cloth; a warrior won it), Group Loot seems to work alright as long as people only hit Need when they actually do.  I can't really see how Blizz could implement an anti-ninja mechanic into Master Looter without implementing some serious gear/spec comparison programming to ensure the recipient is actually receiving an upgrade - not based solely on ilevel but going deeper into the theorycrafting, using equivalency points per stat, gems, set bonuses, etc.  

Originally posted by Surfrider

Losing an item isn't fun, but Blizzard shouldn't step in; instead Blizzard should think about implementing mechanics to prevent such behavior.  I believe the OP is correct here: if Blizzard is willing to take action in these cases will they do so with others, such as ganking?  

I agree with this dude 100%.

I don't like ninja looting but I don't think that Blizzard should take any action about it other than implementing some kind of system to help prevent it from happening.  No one likes getting ninja looted but I still think that the player who does ninja loot has the right to do so and if Blizzard is banning them, who will they ban next?

 Something that BLizzard could do:   Instead of banning the ninja just change the color of his name or put a special icon over his head, for a certain peroid of time, that identifies him as a ninja.  Every time this effect wears off and he ninjas again, make the effect last longer and longer.

I think my biggest problem with this approach is that they still allow players to do it even though it's against policy.

"Here are the two key things which are triggering the new bans and giving loot to the proper winner:

... If Loot rules are talked about before the raid(They read the raid chats).
... If Master looter is turned ON. "

Like others have said, losing an item sucks but if it happens then leave the party and block the guy who "ninja'ed" the item.