Ok, now, I don't really mind open pvp most of the times, but admittedly, it can get pretty annoying sometimes. Getting the hell ganked out of you every 10 seconds isn't very much fun, though killing someone just before you go out is. Open world is alot of fun, but I mostly look for games with non pvp servers(switching over if I feel like it) or instances, so I can just play the game if thats what I want to do, and smack someone if thats what I want to do. 

Originally posted by Palebane

Would be interesting to see someone make a MMOPVP with more than 3 factions. I don't know of any who have tried more than two since DAoC.

I thought EVE was going there with Faction Warfare but they ended up doing the 2v2 thing. The Secret World is supposed to have 3 but who knows when that will launch. Fallen Earth has six factions but they are pretty meaningless.

Originally posted by robert4818

Open world PVP only truly works in a game that does not have exponential power growth...

I couldn't agree more.

I'm not PVPer by any means but open world PVP  is the way to go. These instance areas seem meaningless to me.

I liked the RvR the best as a meaningful system DAOC had the best back in the day.

World PVP in WOW before instanced and arenas was fun in that it felt like a proper part of the world background. Alliance or Horde would attack and then there would be a defense and a counter attack.  It was unbalanced but it was fun. It flet like there was true tension between the two sides.

I think that the instanced an arena battle grounds is a detriment to world PvP. However if PvPers like that style then more power to them.

Originally posted by robert4818

In a game like WOW, AOC, etc the power-level growth makes even the remote outcome of my win IMPOSSIBLE.  There's no way that I a lvl 20 will EVER be able to kill a lvl 50.  There will be no lucky strike that allows me to win.  It just won't happen.

I agree some games make it so that levels play a huge role in how much damage you do to someone but I wanted to point out that you are mistaken about AoC. I no longer play the game, but one of the coolest things I remember about it was levels and gear didnt mean nearly as much as in a game like WoW.

Here is a video of a group of 24-25s taking on much higher players. One is 74, another is 80. It looked like the 74 was AFK but it still amazes me they could hurt her that fast being 1/3 of her level.

Hardcore AoC PvP

PVP for me isn't PVP unless player decisions frequently matter.  Decisions are a lot less important in MMORPG World PVP, due to how many non-skill factors are involved.  Doesn't have to be that way (see Planetside with it's continental population limits of 200 and skill-focused gameplay,) but in all open PVP MMORPGs I've tried it is.

So I usually PVE in MMORPGs and PVP in FPS (with some RTS/Fighting/Puzzle games on the side.)

Im an arena style pvp guy myself. Open world ffa pvp is nice in fps's where the games balanced, but in rpg's with artifical levels and skills its a gank fest joke of high level douches vs low level noobs. It more about pissing people off and greifing then its actually about winning and competition in some kind of esport like arena pvp is. I just call it emo PVP.

The whole point of getting ganked as a lower level in my opinion is to gain a hate for the enemy. If you're all off in butterfly land where your enemies wave at you and give you hugs, then how are you going to intensely hate them? Personally open PvP makes me want to rip the heads off my enemies, and eat their flesh.. But that's just my own view on the ganking. It's not a bad thing, just builds up you wanting to get to the point where you want to make them suffer right back.

The only pvp games i like to play are ones that dont openly tell your opponent your relative strength. Sure you could get ganked by some asshole when he notices you cant kill weak monsters, but he sure as hell will think twice if you run into eachother in the battlefield instead of looking at your lvl.

L2 had this spot on, minus the easily abusable flagging system.

Health as well while im at it... makes it more exciting when you are totally unsure of your enemies abilities.

Originally posted by Palebane

Would be interesting to see someone make a MMOPVP with more than 3 factions. I don't know of any who have tried more than two since DAoC.

Ultima Online has had it for a decade.

www.uoherald.com/guide/guide.php

Beyond that, the removal of factions/realms allows for countless sides in battle.

Originally posted by ruiner12

The whole point of getting ganked as a lower level in my opinion is to gain a hate for the enemy. If you're all off in butterfly land where your enemies wave at you and give you hugs, then how are you going to intensely hate them? Personally open PvP makes me want to rip the heads off my enemies, and eat their flesh.. But that's just my own view on the ganking. It's not a bad thing, just builds up you wanting to get to the point where you want to make them suffer right back.

That may work in an RVR game where there are actually sides.  But RVR does not mean OPEN PVP.  In Open PVP there are no "sides".  Instead you have some random asshat who has no reason to kill you doing so.  Exactly who are you learning to hate at that point, Everybody?

Originally posted by robert4818

 That may work in an RVR game where there are actually sides.  But RVR does not mean OPEN PVP.  In Open PVP there are no "sides".  Instead you have some random asshat who has no reason to kill you doing so.  Exactly who are you learning to hate at that point, Everybody?

I wouldnt say you are learning to hate anyone in FFA PvP. I think FFA PvP enforces the "expect the unexpected" and learning how to get along with others. In instanced worlds like WoW, you can be an asshat to everyone on your own faction, you can scam and ninjaloot without worrying about punishment from other players. If you tried that in FFA PvP, you would be find a knife in your back every time you turn around.

Open PvP has it's issues, no doubt. Although it seems here many like the idea. While some of us remember it fondly, I can't help but think of all the negatives true open PvP brings (And I'm a PvP'er by nature here, but I understand the other side of the argument).

However, my proposition is, people don't necessarily want pure "Open" PvP as much as "Persistent, Balanced" PvP.

Prime example? DAoC Battlegrounds. They weren't instanced, you fought for something, and it was gaurnteed you were fighting people within a certain range of level or available skills/HP. You always knew where to go for a fight if you wanted it. Sure, you could run out to the frontiers and try to help, but you were mostly fodder.. It was POSSIBLE, but not smart. Zerging and population balance were still an issue, but that is an issue in ANY PvP system and it wasn't compounded by other problems traditional open PvP systems have.

If WAR had had Battlegrounds instead of Scenarios, it would have faired a LOT better. Anything on a timer has no meaning.

Originally posted by Coldren

Open PvP has it's issues, no doubt. Although it seems here many like the idea. While some of us remember it fondly, I can't help but think of all the negatives true open PvP brings (And I'm a PvP'er by nature here, but I understand the other side of the argument).

However, my proposition is, people don't necessarily want pure "Open" PvP as much as "Persistent, Balanced" PvP.

Prime example? DAoC Battlegrounds. They weren't instanced, you fought for something, and it was gaurnteed you were fighting people within a certain range of level or available skills/HP. You always knew where to go for a fight if you wanted it. Sure, you could run out to the frontiers and try to help, but you were mostly fodder.. It was POSSIBLE, but not smart. Zerging and population balance were still an issue, but that is an issue in ANY PvP system and it wasn't compounded by other problems traditional open PvP systems have.

If WAR had had Battlegrounds instead of Scenarios, it would have faired a LOT better. Anything on a timer has no meaning.

The problem with FFA PVP is the fact that people believe that you CAN do something, it doesn't mean you SHOULD do something.  People like to say that FFA or Open PVP is more realisitc.  Which is only 1/2 true.  In the real world I have the ability to go up and murder whoever I want to.  Even back in fantasy world, it was an option.  However, the consequences for doing so are Quite steep. 

Too many people feel that FFA PVP is a license to go rape, pillage, and plunder.  Without meaningful consequences for those who "break the law" it may as well be. 

Originally posted by robert4818

The problem with FFA PVP is the fact that people believe that you CAN do something, it doesn't mean you SHOULD do something.  People like to say that FFA or Open PVP is more realisitc.  Which is only 1/2 true.  In the real world I have the ability to go up and murder whoever I want to.  Even back in fantasy world, it was an option.  However, the consequences for doing so are Quite steep. 

Too many people feel that FFA PVP is a license to go rape, pillage, and plunder.  Without meaningful consequences for those who "break the law" it may as well be. 

Permadeath is the answer you seek ;)

Open world pvp is simply another word for ganking and getting ganked. 99% of the time you'd meet an enemy, the enemy would have a lower level, fighting mobs right now, just finished fighting mobs and beeing low on health, having worse equipment, having debuffs of previous combat, having no potions of any sort, beeing distracted by something in real life, having computer problems, having a horrible latency because the isp is having problems, you are in a group etcetc. Or the other way round. Is that fun? Sure it is, if you either like killing people who are weaker, or beeing killed by people you have no chance to defend against.

And realism? Don't come me with realism in MMORPGs. :) How many of your chars slipped on a wet stone and broke their leg? Riiight... tell me about realism. :)

Originally posted by robert4818

Open world PVP only truly works in a game that does not have exponential power growth.  In that sense, you need a sandbox style game where everyone is on roughly equal power levels.

Take a fight between myself and Jackie Chan.  I would most likely lose such a fight, as I have no fighting skills what-so-ever.  However, one lucky blow with a knife, or a surprise attack by me with a 2x4, and jackie is going down for the count. 

In a game like WOW, AOC, etc the power-level growth makes even the remote outcome of my win IMPOSSIBLE.  There's no way that I a lvl 20 will EVER be able to kill a lvl 50.  There will be no lucky strike that allows me to win.  It just won't happen.

I remember being a lvl 10 in EQ and challenging a lvl 50 paladin to a duel.  He accepted for fun, and then let me swing away.  The combat log went something like this:

miss
miss
miss
miss
miss
miss
You hit Paladin for 1 Damage
miss
miss
miss
you hit paladin for 1 Damage
Miss
miss
miss
miss
miss
Paladin hit you for 567 Damage
You died

I'm not sure exactly what people find "Fun", "Hardcore", or "realistic" about that.

I think you're intentionally trying to be ignorant.  Progression of power is a major part of MMORPGs, and that is why you have to start out killing things like mice.. because you barely have the strength and coordination to lift your sword at that point.  No, I doubt you would ever get a "lucky shot" vs someone trained in the martial arts.  Unless you had some form of training yourself, it is just as likely to happen as killing a level 50 with a level 10 in EQ.

Besides the point of open world PvP isn't (or should not be) focused on 1 on 1 battles.  It should be about territorial control, or resource control with perhaps some glimmer of strategy involved.

I could see how all of this would be hard to understand though, through the eyes of the ME generation.

Originally posted by Aganazer 

You make it sound like PvP is supposed to be a sport. One that is practiced between two equal parties in fair and balanced way. That may be ONE way to look at it, but it also isolates it and takes away the fear and anger that are such strong motivators. The best PvP I ever took part in was the anti-PK runs I did in UO. Its not because the fights themselves were so spectacular, but because they had a purpose. Whether it be justice, revenge, defending my home, whatever... Those fights had a purpose that was greater than getting the #1 spot on the kill counter.

PvP is supposed to be a 'game' where you test your skills and knowledge of the game against other players.  I really do not see why you need 'fear and anger' to motivate you.  That seems rather childish and a waste of emotions on a bunch of pixels and some stranger on the Internet. 

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Aganazer 

You make it sound like PvP is supposed to be a sport. One that is practiced between two equal parties in fair and balanced way. That may be ONE way to look at it, but it also isolates it and takes away the fear and anger that are such strong motivators. The best PvP I ever took part in was the anti-PK runs I did in UO. Its not because the fights themselves were so spectacular, but because they had a purpose. Whether it be justice, revenge, defending my home, whatever... Those fights had a purpose that was greater than getting the #1 spot on the kill counter.

 

PvP is supposed to be a 'game' where you test your skills and knowledge of the game against other players.  I really do not see why you need 'fear and anger' to motivate you.  That seems rather childish and a waste of emotions on a bunch of pixels and some stranger on the Internet. 

I wouldn't say high emotion would be the motivator so much as it being a reward of engaging gameplay.

Originally posted by maji

And realism? Don't come me with realism in MMORPGs. :) How many of your chars slipped on a wet stone and broke their leg? Riiight... tell me about realism. :)

Well I will say that has happened to my characters as many times as it has happened to me, which is none. So not a solid example. By that example it would be highly realistic.

Instanced PvP gets old fast. If your side has fewer people or weaker gear then you all just leave and queue up to try again. Nothing is forcing you to fight if the odds aren't always in your favor. It was always quick and easy to tell in WoW and WAR if your side was not going to win it and so you just left, why let them get kills if you can't win?

In open world PvP someone that is better then you starts a fight, you don't get to just pansy out and leave. You have to try and survive long enough to work your way to a safe area or for help to arrive. You don't get to pick and choose your battles, so you have to fight the ones you can't win just like you get to fight the ones you can. Plus it adds that extra level of nervousness, if you know the only PvP action is in instances then you can run around the world without paying attention and never fear getting attacked. But if there is open world PvP you have to watch your surroundings and know what's going on since you could be attacked at any moment.

Instanced = boring fast. If I want instanced combat in any form I'll play non MMO games where I can log into a game, instantly fight, and leave when I am done. Why pay a monthly fee when I can get that other places.

Originally posted by robert4818

Originally posted by ruiner12

The whole point of getting ganked as a lower level in my opinion is to gain a hate for the enemy. If you're all off in butterfly land where your enemies wave at you and give you hugs, then how are you going to intensely hate them? Personally open PvP makes me want to rip the heads off my enemies, and eat their flesh.. But that's just my own view on the ganking. It's not a bad thing, just builds up you wanting to get to the point where you want to make them suffer right back.

 

That may work in an RVR game where there are actually sides.  But RVR does not mean OPEN PVP.  In Open PVP there are no "sides".  Instead you have some random asshat who has no reason to kill you doing so.  Exactly who are you learning to hate at that point, Everybody?

Actually the discussion is speaking of Open WORLD PvP. That means you have no sides, two sides, or even three sides and the whole world is your battle ground. What you are thinking of is FFA PvP, where everyone is your enemy besides the allies you make friends with along the way. In this type of PvP I always create something called a blacklist and go hunting. You can still create your rivalries in this and make enemies and make friends. The point is to make the friends that can kill your enemy with you.

I prefer instanced pvp. Every single mmo that I have played that has world pvp it is just zerg fighting. Not one game that has had world pvp has made it entertaining (for me at least).

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by robert4818

Open world PVP only truly works in a game that does not have exponential power growth.  In that sense, you need a sandbox style game where everyone is on roughly equal power levels.

Take a fight between myself and Jackie Chan.  I would most likely lose such a fight, as I have no fighting skills what-so-ever.  However, one lucky blow with a knife, or a surprise attack by me with a 2x4, and jackie is going down for the count. 

In a game like WOW, AOC, etc the power-level growth makes even the remote outcome of my win IMPOSSIBLE.  There's no way that I a lvl 20 will EVER be able to kill a lvl 50.  There will be no lucky strike that allows me to win.  It just won't happen.

I remember being a lvl 10 in EQ and challenging a lvl 50 paladin to a duel.  He accepted for fun, and then let me swing away.  The combat log went something like this:

miss
miss
miss
miss
miss
miss
You hit Paladin for 1 Damage
miss
miss
miss
you hit paladin for 1 Damage
Miss
miss
miss
miss
miss
Paladin hit you for 567 Damage
You died

I'm not sure exactly what people find "Fun", "Hardcore", or "realistic" about that.

I think you're intentionally trying to be ignorant.  Progression of power is a major part of MMORPGs, and that is why you have to start out killing things like mice.. because you barely have the strength and coordination to lift your sword at that point.  No, I doubt you would ever get a "lucky shot" vs someone trained in the martial arts.  Unless you had some form of training yourself, it is just as likely to happen as killing a level 50 with a level 10 in EQ.

Besides the point of open world PvP isn't (or should not be) focused on 1 on 1 battles.  It should be about territorial control, or resource control with perhaps some glimmer of strategy involved.

I could see how all of this would be hard to understand though, through the eyes of the ME generation.

Its amazing how many times people see that others are not into their form of PVP, and automatically assume that the person must be some sort of young kid.  You would of course be wrong.

The POINT may be more than one on one battles, but the thing that turns people off are the 1 on 1 ganks.  I seriously doubt I would get that lucky shot in as much as you do.  The point though is that there is always the CHANCE however small.  A knife to the ribs, is a knife to the ribs.  It doesn't matter if you are jackie chan or steve urkel. 

The point though is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to actually kill a lvl 50 with a lvl 10 in EQ.  1 on 1, even if the other guy stood there and let me hit him with the knife.  There will be no impossibly low chance, insta-kill crit.  If it was an OPEN PVP world, as opposed to a duel, then he would have just walked up, one-shotted me, moved on (or camped my corpse).  Where exactly is the thrill in that.  HE"S HAVING FUN, but what about me?  I'm supposed to be having fun to you know.

Unfortunatley most people only focus on the amount of fun the killer is able to have, and if the others don't like it, too bad.  When the tables are turned, it inevitabley ends up QQ because now the Gankers have thier fun stolen from them.

In my opinion, open world PvP is essential to a truly great MMO.

The best aspects of PvP in an MMORPG are politics and change. You cannot have one without the other. Neither can exist unless the PvP occurs in the open world and territory control can change based on faction warfare.

This is what I think has been missing in most modern MMORPGs. Guilds should be able to both communicate with and declare war on other guilds. And those guilds must be able to fight over real rewards in the game world. Some of my most entertaining moments in gaming have been when my guild battled another guild we knew well for real territory on the map. Only then can you have true politics and conflict.

When factions are not allowed to communicate with each other or fight in the open world, no real conflict ever emerges. Without communication or conflict, there can never be any politics. When a game has none of these things, it is nothing but a static unchanging theme park.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong though. This can go too far the other way. Games like Darkfall, where there is NOTHING but PvP over territory objectives, are also not ideal. You must blend classic MMORPG elements with this type of open-world PVP or it isn't even worth it in my opinion. I think a game where guilds can choose to declare war on each other, but no one is forced into it, is the ideal system for open-world PvP. In UO, for example, there was a time where if two guilds mutually declared war on each other, enemies from the opposing faction would have orange names and could be attacked anywhere and at any time by their enemies. But the non-combatants (carebears) could choose not to join either guild and were mostly safe from attack.

Originally posted by robert4818

Its amazing how many times people see that others are not into their form of PVP, and automatically assume that the person must be some sort of young kid.  You would of course be wrong.

The POINT may be more than one on one battles, but the thing that turns people off are the 1 on 1 ganks.  I seriously doubt I would get that lucky shot in as much as you do.  The point though is that there is always the CHANCE however small.  A knife to the ribs, is a knife to the ribs.  It doesn't matter if you are jackie chan or steve urkel. 

The point though is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to actually kill a lvl 50 with a lvl 10 in EQ.  1 on 1, even if the other guy stood there and let me hit him with the knife.  There will be no impossibly low chance, insta-kill crit.  If it was an OPEN PVP world, as opposed to a duel, then he would have just walked up, one-shotted me, moved on (or camped my corpse).  Where exactly is the thrill in that.  HE"S HAVING FUN, but what about me?  I'm supposed to be having fun to you know.

Unfortunatley most people only focus on the amount of fun the killer is able to have, and if the others don't like it, too bad.  When the tables are turned, it inevitabley ends up QQ because now the Gankers have thier fun stolen from them.

 

What do you mean "their form of PvP"?  I'm talking about PvP as it exists in almost every MMO there is.  If you want your character to instantly be on even ground with everyone else right after being created, then you are obviously playing the wrong genre of games.