Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I prefer being encouraged to group pre-raid, apparantly you prefer to be encouraged to solo pre -raid. Which is fine, why not make games for both of us?

It's called final fantasy.  It's out there already.

And like I said already, the problem is there isn't even many successful mmorpg at all.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I prefer being encouraged to group pre-raid, apparantly you prefer to be encouraged to solo pre -raid. Which is fine, why not make games for both of us?

 

It's called final fantasy.  It's out there already.

And like I said already, the problem is there isn't even many successful mmorpg at all.

 

WoW is out there already to, but I don't expect the gamers that like solo friendly leveling pre raid to play WoW forever.

strawman.

People arent saying "grouping sucks".  People are saying they want the option to solo.  Now answer why you LIE to support your position.  If you have to lie then your position is obviously flawed and wrong. 

Originally posted by svann

strawman.

People arent saying "grouping sucks".  People are saying they want the option to solo.  Now answer why you LIE to support your position.  If you have to lie then your position is obviously flawed and wrong.  You lose again.

Why don't you have the option to solo in EQ?or DAoC? I think you do, and I certainly don't mind that you have the option to solo. That's fine with me.

The answer to your question is simple. It's a thread title. I could not write a paragraph, so although sucks is inaccurate it is succinct.

What else can people do at max level? Devs are so boring all they can come up with is raid.

Good question for the solo lovers, though. I think you probably pissed them off even more. They don't have enough games to play that are single player. That includes most MMOs.

Originally posted by laokoko  

It's called final fantasy.  It's out there already.

And like I said already, the problem is there isn't even many successful mmorpg at all.

Have you ever played EQ, DAoC or FF?

EQ and DAoC are similar style games that I have enjoyed. I keep hearing people say that those who like to group would like FF, but I did some checking, and that game is NOTHING like EQ or DAoC. Its more like Mortal Kombat mixed in with WoW instances. I would love to hear the similarities between EQ/DAoC and Final Fantasy.

The reason why they raid and group at the end is to show off. They have solo'd their way to 80 but they dont have any compassions. Whats the easiest way to attract children and primate like people? Shinies! If u show them stuff they will love u and envy u. Then with them as minions. Then u have a guild. Then u can raid. What the piont behind raiding? more shinies to link! Its all about their false lives online. They dont warrant any decorations, awards, accomplishments or even respect away from the computer so why be be royalty online? Me personally i would rather solo than be in a guild or even a group of people who think that mistakes wont be made. That tells me that those people are out of touch with "real-life"

Originally posted by Pharoin

The reason why they raid and group at the end is to show off. They have solo'd their way to 80 but they dont have any compassions. Whats the easiest way to attract children and primate like people? Shinies! If u show them stuff they will love u and envy u. Then with them as minions. Then u have a guild. Then u can raid. What the piont behind raiding? more shinies to link! Its all about their false lives online. They dont warrant any decorations, awards, accomplishments or even respect away from the computer so why be be royalty online? Me personally i would rather solo than be in a guild or even a group of people who think that mistakes wont be made. That tells me that those people are out of touch with "real-life"

Sounds like someones got a case of the Mondays...

Originally posted by brostyn

What else can people do at max level? Devs are so boring all they can come up with is raid.

Good question for the solo lovers, though. I think you probably pissed them off even more. They don't have enough games to play that are single player. That includes most MMOs.

The only other option I know of for end game  is PvP like in an RvR set up.

Maybe you could build pyramids like in ATiTD?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

WoW is out there already to, but I don't expect the gamers that like solo friendly leveling pre raid to play WoW forever.

I played burning crusade for 10 month.  I play 12 hours a day.  I only spend 30% of my time doing dungeons or raids.  I do other things 70% of the time.  I can infect play forever without even doing dungeon or raids.  The thing about wow is it have everything, that's why it's successful.

I have the same issue just like you.  I want to play a fantasy sandbox game without harsh death penalty.

Why don't developer make games for people like you and me?  Because they could make more money if they don't make games for "just" you and me.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

WoW is out there already to, but I don't expect the gamers that like solo friendly leveling pre raid to play WoW forever.

 

I played burning crusade for 10 month.  I play 12 hours a day.  I only spend 30% of my time doing dungeons or raids.  I do other things 70% of the time.  I can infect play forever without even doing dungeon or raids.  The thing about wow is it have everything, that's why it's successful.

 

 

No, not everything.

It lacks good group content pre-raid, and it lacks good PvP like DaoC.

But yes, it has a lot and it is the most successful MMORPG to date, and perhaps it will be the most successful MMORPG ever and no other MMORPG will ever surpass it.

I just want to throw in that I leveled a priest to 60 pre-TBC 90% in dungeons.

Originally posted by nAAtimus

I just want to throw in that I leveled a priest to 60 pre-TBC 90% in dungeons.

Those were the good ole days in WoW. The new LK dungeons are no where near as fun or challenging as the old dungeons yet they drop purple epics like candy. Take out the risk and pour on the reward!

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

The argument I am hearing from solo players is you can't make the game as hard to level solo as EQ. That's just not solo friendly enough! Why, I can't stand around LFG all the time. I've got to walk the baby and change the dogs diapers! You expect me to group to make fast progress? That's unheard of! That game will fail! The game MUST be as easy to level as WoW or you're trying to FORCE me to group with you. I won't make xp as fast as a group? Impossible! Don't force me! I won't stand for it. No, no, no! The modern game must let solo just as easy as grouping to level up. Yes, that's the ONLY design that's viable. Nothing else will work. The game MUST be like WoW or it cannot succeed!

And then you get to the end game and what? you quit? Every single solo player that is on these threads complaining about how they would never play a "forced grouping game" (meaning you dont' level as fast solo as in a group) quits when they get to the end game?

What about in RvR when you need a guild or you get your butt handed to you solo? You quit playing that too, and go find another solo friendly game so you can level solo just as fast as grouping?

 If encouraging grouping is such a horrible game design, destined to fail, why are people raiding at the end of all the mMORPGs?

Raiding is even MORE time consuming and forced than grouping in EQ. So how is raiding ok, but encouraging grouping before the end game is such a horrible crime, and destined to fail?

I like a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC myself. I don't really care for the raid, but seems like a lot of players are doing it. You're telling me players dont' mind raiding, but if they can't solo as fast as WoW they won't play the game? Really?

How is playing the end game in WoW, and playing a game like EQ that encourages grouping before the end game, so terribly different?

I'm seriously asking.

 

How is playing the end game in WoW, and playing a game like EQ that encourages grouping before the end game, so terribly different? 

Hmmm . . . you are comparing two totally different concepts -- 1.) actively leveling your character towards level cap to get to the end game--also know as "the journey",  versus 2.) a level-capped character that doesn't have to give a crap about how easy it is to level anymore, just get phat lootz--"the destination".

 In modern MMO's, there is all this talk about the "end game".  Sure, you can have fun along the way, but everything ultimately revolves around the "end game".  Unless you are the type of player that never gets a toon to max lvl, you are ultimately working towards your toon's maturity to a level-capped toon, correct?

As such, in a gear-based game, e.g.,  WOW, it is understood that having better gear = a better, more powerful toon.  The best gear is often gonna come from raiding.  Fine.  Accept that.  It's a necessary evil.  I think every WoW player understands that by now.

As was discussed earler, if ppl could get the best end game gear solo, they would.  They can't so they are forced to group.  I think everyone understands that too?

That means there is great motivation to level as fast as possible to max lvl and start end game raids, no?  If ppl can level faster solo as opposed to waiting around for groups to form, wouldn't they?  Of course.  People are going to find the most efficient means to level to the end game.

Easier leveling / ease of the solo experince lets you get to the end game raids faster.  It's a means to an end.  In other words, easier leveling / solo lets you get all the crappy levels you have to endure on your way to max lvl out of the way faster so the REAL game can begin.  Levels 1-79 were just filler . . . 80 is where it's at.  Odd, no?

If you make leveling harder/ reduce the options to level by making solo less viable, you are delaying the end game.  Once a person is at end game raiding, they could give a crap about how hard it is to level solo as you put it--they are level capped until the next game expansion. 

At that point, to answer your original question, there is little difference between end game WoW vs EQ, Vanguard, EQ2, etc.--you're gonna have to group to get the best goodies.

Arguably, one of the reasons WoW is so successful is because it's a very easy road leading up to the end game.  Then you're forced to play nice with/ group with ppl you many not really even like to get your lootz.  For instance, ever been in an instance with a player that was totally clueless about how to play as a team?  That player probably solo'd his whole way to max lvl.

That's about as simple and straightforward as I can explain it.  Ease of leveling/ solo options don't matter a bit at max lvl and end game where you kinda have to group.  Ease of leveling/ solo determine how soon you get to end game and probably encourages it, forced grouping slows it.  That's why ppl want the ability to solo to max lvl.  End game group raids is another animal.

Originally posted by Murashu

Originally posted by nAAtimus

I just want to throw in that I leveled a priest to 60 pre-TBC 90% in dungeons.

Those were the good ole days in WoW. The new LK dungeons are no where near as fun or challenging as the old dungeons yet they drop purple epics like candy. Take out the risk and pour on the reward!

One of the many reasons why I don't play WoW anymore.  Hell, the only reason why I have TBC is because I conned my boss into buying it for me when it came out..

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

No, not everything.

It lacks good group content pre-raid, and it lacks good PvP like DaoC.

But yes, it has a lot and it is the most successful MMORPG to date, and perhaps it will be the most successful MMORPG ever and no other MMORPG will ever surpass it.

I think I actually leveled from 60-70 almost entirely just by dungeons on one of my toons. 

But the main thing is game company don't make games just for you.  They try to maximize their profit.  Maybe things you want isn't what majority of other people want.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by flguy147

people raid for 2 reasons.  there is nothing left to do in the game and to get the best gear.  if there were solo ways to get the best gear then i guarantee not as many people would raid.  i cant stand doing raids with punks that act like internet tough guys in raids and yelling at people for messing up.  that is what pushes me to solo more than group.  and i have heard other people say the exact same thing. 

 

I think that's a no brainer. Raiding  requires more effort than playing by yourself. Of course people would solo if they didn't have to raid and got the same gear.

Would anyone raid at the end of WoW at all if they could get the same exact gear solo for the same effort? I seriously doubt it.

 

Ihmotepp,

At first, you were making a few points and going back and forth with folks over solo vs groupers.  Now, your real colors are showing.   It is obvious you want all mmorpgs to completely get rid of all solo content because you feel solo contest cheapens your group experience in MMOGs.  You give lip service saying that soloers should be allowed in games, but you honestly don't feel that way.  Everyone knows MMOGs put group content tuck away on maps and in dungeons so if groups want to go do group content they can.  If it was the solo content that was tucked away, how would the solo player get to the solo content if they had to go thru group content to get to it?  It's obvious, you can't stand the solo player or solo player content.  We get it.

Originally posted by nAAtimus

One of the many reasons why I don't play WoW anymore.  Hell, the only reason why I have TBC is because I conned my boss into buying it for me when it came out..

Yeah I hear ya. I got duped into going back a few months ago and all the new expansion did was make me miss Pre-BC even more.

If soloing MMO's is so great, and grouping sucks, why do players raid?

1. Obviously not everyone thinks soloing is great .. I suspect a lot of people raiding shares that sentiment. I also know a lot of people who likes to solo also likes to raid. You see you can't put everyone in a neat little labeled box

2. As others have said. Raiding gives the best gear. There is nothing else that needs clarification on that matter.

3. To see more of the content they are paying for. An interest people who likes to solo and people that likes to group often share. And again because you can't put people in a little simple box there are also those that do not care about seeing all the content and those that are indifferent. Even a mix of the above

There are probably a 100+ other reasons. The question is what does raiding have to do with xp and level progression in groups vs solo?

Why would a gaming company only cater to a minority that want an extreme when it can earn more money by offering a game that appeals to a broader audience. There are people out there that like soloing occationally, some who hate it and others who want nothing but to solo ..writing long winded posts won't change that.

What i get from your posts is if you have a social life, a family, a girlfriend or pets ..you should be banned from playing MMORPGS because that's only for people who can sit down and play for 4+ hours in one session without constant rl distractions. Because that's one of the many reasons why people sometimes solo ..an option any MMORPG should have. The only thing worth discussing is how rewarding that should be

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

If raiding in mmo's is so great, why do player solo?

Raiding should never be done on the same level of soloing. Who would want to grind raids all day? That is one of the problems WoW faced early on. The point is, games like mmo's should offer variety, any gamer who believes you should only stick to one mode of play is an ignorant gamer. Soloing requires no group, no planning, no special situation. It is the most accessible form of play. Not everyone wants to deal with other players all the time. However, raiding should be the option that exist in light of soloing. Raiding isnt an accessible mode of play, nor is it efficient at all times. PUGs tend to be nightmares, and can often add less enjoyment to a game than soloing. In otherwords, you cant go wrong soloing, raiding is more complex and a lot can go wrong. 

 

 

Different players like different games. I enjoy PUGs im MMORPGs more than anything else in the game. I almost never find PuGS to be nightmares, but then I'm not playing to get elite gear or to race to the level cap. I've never had more fun soloing an MMORPG than in playing in a PUG.

I'd rather have a PUG that gets me wiped and lose xp, than solo and gain xp in an MMORPG. Why? Because I'd have MUCH more fun in the PUG, and that's why i'm playing the game.

I guess you don't like PUGs, and that's fine we all like different things.

There are no games that don't allow you to solo, or dont' allow you to group.

We are never discussing EITHER Or in these threads.

The discussion is about the balance.

In WoW you are encouraged, IMO, to solo to the cap.

In EQ you are encouraged, IMO, to group to the cap.

You can group in WoW, you can solo in EQ.

BOTH games offer a choice, BOTH games have options.

I prefer being encouraged to group pre-raid, apparantly you prefer to be encouraged to solo pre -raid. Which is fine, why not make games for both of us?

Well that is your opinion certainly, though Pugs by nature, statistically as anyone can see, are more open to disaster than anything else. Not everyone in a Pug will work towards the same goal, some may even have the goal to ruin the Pug. There is always the issue of compatibility via Pugs. However, this is only one part of the greater discussion.

You think WoW encourages soloing to cap, I would argue otherwise. WoW is the mmorpg definition of accessibility. This is a word that is used often in the industry, it is the holy mantra in which AAA mmorpgs chant. WoW developers understand that solo play is the most accessible form of play, and to you it seems like they cater towards it, rather what you are seeing is just how accessible soloing is. WoW gives the option for all modes of play, grouping will lvl you faster to cap, it will allow raids and dungeons to be completed and it keeps you safer in pvp zones. They have not created a solo game, but a game in which many are seen soloing. The option is there, and it is popular.

Did you know statistically female gamers are most likely to solo? Behavioral studies revealed that many female gamers shy away from conflict or interaction with other players. MMORPGs also tend to have a large female player base, even if it does not appear that way.

Again it all comes back to accessibility. You ask "why not make a game for both of us", and that is exactly what WoW did, even if you dislike the game, it is made for all modes of play. This is why it is so popular, still.

 I solo and do 5 man stuff in WoW but I refuse to raid. I'm sure there has to be some decent people who raid but from my experience they have some serious issues and i just hope they are sterile. For instance I was asked to do a Naxx run and I said i can't my kids are up so i am just doing my Argent Tourney dailies. I was told to just lock my kids in their rooms and get my priorities straight. that was the final nail for me. I have no use for the raiding community in wow  and I hope  blizzard offers 5 man versions of all raid dungeons just so people with some sense of what it means to have a life outside of the game can see all the content I don't even give a crap if the decrease the loot in the 5 man version. Some of us don't need to flex our epeen as much.

karat76,  i feel exactly how you do.  and that is why i would rather solo now.  yes i love to group if its with cool people but in mmos people take it way too freakin serious for me.  its only a video game thats it to me.  if somebody wipes the raid big freakin deal.  but too many people start cussing people out in raids or if they have to leave in the middle of a group they get all pissed.  if people were more mature and realized its onlly a video game then i would want to group more.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

The argument I am hearing from solo players is you can't make the game as hard to level solo as EQ. That's just not solo friendly enough! Why, I can't stand around LFG all the time. I've got to walk the baby and change the dogs diapers! You expect me to group to make fast progress? That's unheard of! That game will fail! The game MUST be as easy to level as WoW or you're trying to FORCE me to group with you. I won't make xp as fast as a group? Impossible! Don't force me! I won't stand for it. No, no, no! The modern game must let solo just as easy as grouping to level up. Yes, that's the ONLY design that's viable. Nothing else will work. The game MUST be like WoW or it cannot succeed!

And then you get to the end game and what? you quit? Every single solo player that is on these threads complaining about how they would never play a "forced grouping game" (meaning you dont' level as fast solo as in a group) quits when they get to the end game?

What about in RvR when you need a guild or you get your butt handed to you solo? You quit playing that too, and go find another solo friendly game so you can level solo just as fast as grouping?

 If encouraging grouping is such a horrible game design, destined to fail, why are people raiding at the end of all the mMORPGs?

Raiding is even MORE time consuming and forced than grouping in EQ. So how is raiding ok, but encouraging grouping before the end game is such a horrible crime, and destined to fail?

I like a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC myself. I don't really care for the raid, but seems like a lot of players are doing it. You're telling me players dont' mind raiding, but if they can't solo as fast as WoW they won't play the game? Really?

How is playing the end game in WoW, and playing a game like EQ that encourages grouping before the end game, so terribly different?

I'm seriously asking.

 

Like someone else already mentioned: you're too focussed on the extremes.

To stay with your example of WoW (dunno if things have changed by now). People asking about and looking at your gear if you want to join a 5-man group. The same happens in raids (taken to a "professional level"). Plus the time commitment that come with raids. Oddly I rarely saw the raiding guilds require less than 4 days of raiding activity (even if the raids were already on farm status).

I found a little niche MMO with grouping from the start. And there it's just more relaxed. Even in PUGs.

Dunno if it's the game or the mentality of the players.

Originally posted by flguy147

karat76,  i feel exactly how you do.  and that is why i would rather solo now.  yes i love to group if its with cool people but in mmos people take it way too freakin serious for me.  its only a video game thats it to me.  if somebody wipes the raid big freakin deal.  but too many people start cussing people out in raids or if they have to leave in the middle of a group they get all pissed.  if people were more mature and realized its onlly a video game then i would want to group more.

I agree with both of you.  I can't tell you how many times I tried to do the raid then when real life stuff comes up and people just go nuts that you have to go afk or leave the group.  I've even been told to "uninstall if you can't dedicate your time to gaming".  Last time I was on WoW I tried to get into some Naxx runs for better gear.  What happened?  They looked at my achievements and kicked me from the group.  People are taking the game way too seriously.

I don't raid.  When I get to the endgame, I retire the character.  It might stick around to help others but beyond that, I don't play it, there's no point.  I either start a new alt or I give up on the game entirely.

There's no point to the endgame, period.