What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

The argument I am hearing from solo players is you can't make the game as hard to level solo as EQ. That's just not solo friendly enough! Why, I can't stand around LFG all the time. I've got to walk the baby and change the dogs diapers! You expect me to group to make fast progress? That's unheard of! That game will fail! The game MUST be as easy to level as WoW or you're trying to FORCE me to group with you. I won't make xp as fast as a group? Impossible! Don't force me! I won't stand for it. No, no, no! The modern game must let solo just as easy as grouping to level up. Yes, that's the ONLY design that's viable. Nothing else will work. The game MUST be like WoW or it cannot succeed!

And then you get to the end game and what? you quit? Every single solo player that is on these threads complaining about how they would never play a "forced grouping game" (meaning you dont' level as fast solo as in a group) quits when they get to the end game?

What about in RvR when you need a guild or you get your butt handed to you solo? You quit playing that too, and go find another solo friendly game so you can level solo just as fast as grouping?

 If encouraging grouping is such a horrible game design, destined to fail, why are people raiding at the end of all the mMORPGs?

Raiding is even MORE time consuming and forced than grouping in EQ. So how is raiding ok, but encouraging grouping before the end game is such a horrible crime, and destined to fail?

I like a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC myself. I don't really care for the raid, but seems like a lot of players are doing it. You're telling me players dont' mind raiding, but if they can't solo as fast as WoW they won't play the game? Really?

How is playing the end game in WoW, and playing a game like EQ that encourages grouping before the end game, so terribly different?

I'm seriously asking.

I think you have sucessfully run this solo vs groupers thing into the ground now, please stop.  Mark me as bored.

Originally posted by elderotter

I think you have sucessfully run this solo vs groupers thing into the ground now, please stop.  Mark me as bored.

When you start paying me to entertain you I will care whether you are bored or not.

Your a glutton for punishment aren't you Ihmotepp.

many people raid for 2 reasons.  there is nothing left to do in the game and to get the best gear.  if there were solo ways to get the best gear then i guarantee not as many people would raid.  i cant stand doing raids with punks that act like internet tough guys in raids and yelling at people for messing up.  that is what pushes me to solo more than group.  and i have heard other people say the exact same thing. 

I didn't play WOTLK.  But in burning crusade you can actually level from 60-70 just by doing dungeons.

@ OP,

your looking at extremes.  Either solo eveyrthing and do everything alone or group everything and do everything in a group.  WoW provides options.  To get the best of the best gear, yes, you need to group and eventually raid.  WoW is a PVE focused game.  It has never tried to hide from this fact.  WoW just provides options for many different player types.

Sorry, but I'm with the OP. I can't understand why people gripe about having to solo, yet they are in fact subscribing to an MMORPG. Do these people know what the MMO part stands for? There are plenty of games out there like Oblivion that are solo games. They are also player supported, so after you run out of the expansions, just install some mods, and it's almost a whole new game. If you don't want to group, then quit being selfish and trying to take away the reason why MMOs were created in the first place and ruin it for the people that subscribe to an MMO "BECAUSE" it's and MMO.

Originally posted by flguy147

people raid for 2 reasons.  there is nothing left to do in the game and to get the best gear.  if there were solo ways to get the best gear then i guarantee not as many people would raid.  i cant stand doing raids with punks that act like internet tough guys in raids and yelling at people for messing up.  that is what pushes me to solo more than group.  and i have heard other people say the exact same thing. 

I think that's a no brainer. Raiding  requires more effort than playing by yourself. Of course people would solo if they didn't have to raid and got the same gear.

Would anyone raid at the end of WoW at all if they could get the same exact gear solo for the same effort? I seriously doubt it.

Plz, just say what u wanna hear, u already got the ALL the awnsers, already got the hate of soloers AND groupers, already flammed for fun, what else u need? here´s you cookie =)

yes i know what mmo stands and it doesnt stand for group only game.   it stands for massive multiplayer online.  nothing in that says you have to group in it. 

Originally posted by TheHavok

@ OP,

your looking at extremes.  Either solo eveyrthing and do everything alone or group everything and do everything in a group.  WoW provides options.  To get the best of the best gear, yes, you need to group and eventually raid.  WoW is a PVE focused game.  It has never tried to hide from this fact.  WoW just provides options for many different player types.

Where does this come from?

You could solo in EQ. You could group in WoW.

It's a matter of balance, not either or. There isn't any game where you cannot solo, it just takes longer to reach the level cap.

EQ provides options, just like WoW provides options. you prefer the WoW options, ok fine, I prefer the EQ options. What's wrong with that?

Plain and simple, raiding is FUN. It is typically the most challenging content in an MMO. Good raid content requires preparation on individual, group and guild levels. I love being in a large progression guild and working with others who like to progress thru content as a team instead of focusing on individual accomplishments.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

EQ provides options, just like WoW provides options. you prefer the WoW options, ok fine, I prefer the EQ options. What's wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that.  It's just game company will probably sell more copy if they use the wow options.

It's like I like to play darkfall online without the harsh death penalty.  But that wont' happen.  Because that game is targeted specifically to people who want harsh death penalty.

I didn't play FF11.  But the game you looking for is probalby FF14.

Originally posted by Kenaoshi

Plz, just say what u wanna hear, u already got the ALL the awnsers, already got the hate of soloers AND groupers, already flammed for fun, what else u need? here´s you cookie =)

I'm not trying to be redundant. It seriously occured to me. I'm arguing in all these threads that I'd like a game that encourages grouping. A game similar to EQ or DAoC.

And poster after poster is telling me, that's IMPOSSIBLE! You can't encourage grouping! People want to solo! You can't let the soloers not get xp as fast as a group! That would FORCE the soloer to group, and that game would fail! You understand me? You're an idiot, the game would fail!

So here we are with poster after poster telling me the game I want to play is impossible and it will fail.

Yet, millions of gamers are playing that game RIGHT NOW, in WoW, on an even MORE hardcore level, called raiding.

If raiding can be successful, why can't a good grouping game be successful?

Seriously, what is the difference in playing a game that encourages grouping, where you level faster if you group than if you solo, and raiding at the end of any other MMORPG?

As long as you can solo just as fast as a group to the level cap, you dont' mind grouping after that?

Why do you HAVE to be able to solo to the level cap just as fast as grouping BEFORE you get to the end game, but then you don't mind grouping in even BIGGER groups?

NO ONE would play a game where you level faster grouping than solo BEFORE you reach the end game? Are you sure about that?

Mmmmm...cookies.

    I think you hit the nail on the head, but are drawing the wrong conclusions.

It IS the gear that is the problem and not that they don't want to group for general game play.  I am pretty sure that Bioware mentioned that their focus group testing showed that 60% of players preferred to group, with the remaining 40% divided between soloers, raiders and pvpers, but lots of crossover.  But the groups were largely 2 to 3 players, or basically a couple friends and I don't think this is what people mean when they say group-centric.  Both soloers and large groups are not the majority, as people seem to argue.

But because of the large amount of crossover, many want to pvp, or participate in whatever the endgame is, but the only way to compete normally is with epic gear, or they are at a disadvantage.  So effectively, the solo players, plus that 60% small group crowd is FORCED to raid, just to participate in the end aspect of the game, which may not have anything to do with large raid groups necessarily.

I am not a solo advocate, but I do think its silly that they must raid just to pvp.  I bet most people don't mind grouping at all, but raids seem to be general considered a pain in the butt.  I would rather group, but I hate raids for example.  I only raid to see the dungeon, not for the damn loot.

In my mind, this is the soloers main beef, not that they despise grouping.  Removing the elite pvp armor from raids would help, and yes I know there are many other factors and not all games do this.   I think loot drops ruined a lot of potential in games period.  Look at what holocrons did to SWG.  That was a group game that turned into a solofest, savage quenker genocide for people grinding through professions they didn't care about.  They were simply rushing through to get to the next good thing.  Kind of like all games now.  People chasing the next great epic gear drop.

Just my thoughts

Ohatro

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

If raiding can be successful, why can't a good grouping game be successful?

Because technically there isn't even much successful mmorpg to start with.

I dont' even think there are more than 5 p2p games with 100k+ western subscriber.

And if you point finger at Wow, they got arena, BG, crafting, mining/herbing, daily quest, reputation farming, playing alts.  I remember spending 3 hours a day, every day, in wow just crafting.  It's not all about raiding.

And what's wrong with final fantasy, isn't that the game you looking for?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Seriously, what is the difference in playing a game that encourages grouping, where you level faster if you group than if you solo, and raiding at the end of any other MMORPG?

As long as you can solo just as fast as a group to the level cap, you dont' mind grouping after that?

Why do you HAVE to be able to solo to the level cap just as fast as grouping BEFORE you get to the end game, but then you don't mind grouping in even BIGGER groups?

NO ONE would play a game where you level faster grouping than solo BEFORE you reach the end game? Are you sure about that?

This is a good point and a good realization. However, I do believe, like other posters stated, without just the option of soloing on a slow night (if you can't find a group / bad LFG system) and "losing" xp/time for it... it will turn a lot of potential subs off. Unfortunately for us, MMO companies are businesses and they do need to get a healthy amount of subs in order to feed their families.

Currently, in the market today there isn't a clear cut grouper exclusive extremely successful game out there to show game companies that it is possible (Final Fantasy? not sure how successful that is). 

The only game I know of right now that even changes when grouping would be DDO. As you gain more members in your party, dungeons scale and become more difficult and reward better items/experience. Its not a hit, but since its F2P switcharoonie, it isn't doing too bad.

Conc: Soloers make up the majority of the market. Companies tailor themselves GENERALLY to the majority. There are / will be exceptions. Not everyone wants to group, not everyone wants to solo, not everyone wants to do just one. No one can change others playstyles.

Solution: A company gets smart and builds a very well done grouper game similar to a hit like WoW in terms of accessibility and options, but focused on groupers. Is that a contradiction? Absolutely not. Can be focused on mulitple group aspects such as Siege / PvP / Raid / Small PvE / Small group PvE (Restrictions such as 3 people group size for difficult dungeons, more rewarding if completed) / Group crafting (Don't know how, but sounds cool)

Problem: Never gonna happen.

If they raised the exp in grouping in wow, or put group bonuses, you would still have many people solo because they would just want to quest. Both parties would be happy actually. As it is, most people just solo or duo with a friend because it is counterproductive to group.

This could easily be done in games like they did in eq and daoc, but for some reason it is not. Probably since wow usually caters to lowest common denominator to keep so many people in game, it is easier to just make it an ultra casual leveling experience. It could still be that way with grouping bonuses though so, *shrug*.

Even EQ didn't have exp bonus until a bit later into the game, it was just easier to get more killing harder stuff faster than soloing.

Also, it seems with a lot of games trying to cash in on wow's success, they're mirroring the methods, thus not offering solid group play. Also quest based MMOs, as in it being the main way of progression, is not conducive to grouping with multiple steps and such. Often the dungeons in these games end up being poorer exp than just doing a few easy quests.

Eventually someone will offer benefits to group, while not penalizing people for soloing. The faster exp in grouping, and social interaction could be offset by the time spent lfg, so people will still solo, especially if they don't have much time to play and still feel like they accomplished something.

I grouped a bit in eq2 and  really only did the special quests, forgot what they were called. I also grouped in vanguard, and soloed a bit too. lotro I tended to solo more, but grouped sometimes for harder stuff, but that was more quest based. wow, I basically soloed until end game, except grouping up every now and then when needed.

As for eq and daoc, well, I only soloed or duo in eq when I didn't have much time or wanted something new, except in earlier levels. daoc, was a nice mixture of both depending on what I wanted out of my gameplay experience.

I'm sure there will be a game out there that is good for both soloing and grouping, but basically, there is just nothing really that good out recently, let alone offering more diversity. I also think the nearly pure questing MMO may change once businesses notice it is not quite turning the profit they were hoping after seeing wow's quest based mmo succeed. Hopefully a nice mixture of quests and killing mobs, dungeon crawling, which will lead to more grouping.

Heh, sorry for the fragmented wall of text.

I haven't played WoW in a good while, but didn't Blizzard make raids smaller?

Originally posted by Ohatro

   

In my mind, this is the soloers main beef, not that they despise grouping.  Removing the elite pvp armor from raids would help, and yes I know there are many other factors and not all games do this.   I think loot drops ruined a lot of potential in games period.  Look at what holocrons did to SWG.  That was a group game that turned into a solofest, savage quenker genocide for people grinding through professions they didn't care about.  They were simply rushing through to get to the next good thing.  Kind of like all games now.  People chasing the next great epic gear drop.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Ohatro

I don't really follow you here.

If you remove elite pvp armor from raids, why would players be raiding exactly? So they would get....what?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Ohatro

   

In my mind, this is the soloers main beef, not that they despise grouping.  Removing the elite pvp armor from raids would help, and yes I know there are many other factors and not all games do this.   I think loot drops ruined a lot of potential in games period.  Look at what holocrons did to SWG.  That was a group game that turned into a solofest, savage quenker genocide for people grinding through professions they didn't care about.  They were simply rushing through to get to the next good thing.  Kind of like all games now.  People chasing the next great epic gear drop.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Ohatro

 

I don't really follow you here.

If you remove elite pvp armor from raids, why would players be raiding exactly? So they would get....what?

PvE gear? I dont know too many games that actually reward you with PvP gear from PvE raids but I guess there are a few. I know WoW gives a few pieces out in VoA, but I wouldnt call that a raid.

If raiding in mmo's is so great, why do player solo?

Raiding should never be done on the same level of soloing. Who would want to grind raids all day? That is one of the problems WoW faced early on. The point is, games like mmo's should offer variety, any gamer who believes you should only stick to one mode of play is an ignorant gamer. Soloing requires no group, no planning, no special situation. It is the most accessible form of play. Not everyone wants to deal with other players all the time. However, raiding should be the option that exist in light of soloing. Raiding isnt an accessible mode of play, nor is it efficient at all times. PUGs tend to be nightmares, and can often add less enjoyment to a game than soloing. In otherwords, you cant go wrong soloing, raiding is more complex and a lot can go wrong. 

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

If raiding in mmo's is so great, why do player solo?

Raiding should never be done on the same level of soloing. Who would want to grind raids all day? That is one of the problems WoW faced early on. The point is, games like mmo's should offer variety, any gamer who believes you should only stick to one mode of play is an ignorant gamer. Soloing requires no group, no planning, no special situation. It is the most accessible form of play. Not everyone wants to deal with other players all the time. However, raiding should be the option that exist in light of soloing. Raiding isnt an accessible mode of play, nor is it efficient at all times. PUGs tend to be nightmares, and can often add less enjoyment to a game than soloing. In otherwords, you cant go wrong soloing, raiding is more complex and a lot can go wrong. 

 

Different players like different games. I enjoy PUGs im MMORPGs more than anything else in the game. I almost never find PuGS to be nightmares, but then I'm not playing to get elite gear or to race to the level cap. I've never had more fun soloing an MMORPG than in playing in a PUG.

I'd rather have a PUG that gets me wiped and lose xp, than solo and gain xp in an MMORPG. Why? Because I'd have MUCH more fun in the PUG, and that's why i'm playing the game.

I guess you don't like PUGs, and that's fine we all like different things.

There are no games that don't allow you to solo, or dont' allow you to group.

We are never discussing EITHER Or in these threads.

The discussion is about the balance.

In WoW you are encouraged, IMO, to solo to the cap.

In EQ you are encouraged, IMO, to group to the cap.

You can group in WoW, you can solo in EQ.

BOTH games offer a choice, BOTH games have options.

I prefer being encouraged to group pre-raid, apparantly you prefer to be encouraged to solo pre -raid. Which is fine, why not make games for both of us?