To alot of people, the idea of a "Sandbox" game is one of 100% total freedom.  Nothing can hamper your choices and you are free to make any character, and do anything.  The majority of the content in the game is player made.  They point to games like EVE, UO, and (shudder) Darkfall.  The analogy to the sandbox is that in the sandbox, you get a pile of sand, and you can do with it what you want.

The other end of the spectrum is the Themepark game.  In this game, the world is practically linear.  There may be a choice here or there but these paths eventually put you back in the exact same spot.  The quests are all in a line, they lead from one to the other ad nausium.  In the end Every chracter of the same class is practically identical.   The analogy is to something like Disney world, where you have the exact experience that the company wants you to have.  You go on their rides, and you have their definition of fun.

I'm more of a middle guy.  I don't want the sandbox, I don't want to go to Disney world.  I want to go play at the city park.  Its big, open.  I have just as much room to play with my imagination. PLUS its got swing-sets, slides, monkey bars, and all sorts of things I can play on.  Maybe I'm going over a lava pit on the monkey bars, or maybe I'm just on monkey bars....who knows.

In a City-Park game, you get the best of both worlds.  You may have classes, but a class is more of an archtype, you would have dozens of skills that you choose from, all of them related to the archtype you chose.  Down the road, you may have specialist classes you can go into that are more limited, but stronger in their area of expertise, of course you might just stay the generic route.

There are quests and quests lines that are completely optional.  Perhaps you stumble upon a merchant being robbed by brigands.  You save him, only to end up in a quest line that deals with wiping out this brigand group all together.  However Quests would be there for the finding, and not a mandatory part of the game.

There are in-game systems that push and pull your character (NPC Nation Politics), but with the world being a bit more dynamic, no two characters would have the same story.

In a city-park game, you get alot of the systems that make theme-park games fun, but the are throttled back to be a part of the world, as opposed to the focus.  They become a part of the experience, one that you can choose to take or not.

These games would take a bit more work to make, as it would be a hybrid.  You would have much more freedom, and the ability to feel apart of the world, much more than in a theme-park, but you would have a few more limitations, and guided content than you would in a sandbox game.

I like games which have 20% themepark and 80% sandbox.

EQ was like that, WoW is a bit too much themepark and Aion is total themepark suckness.

I like a tiny bit of themepark, but it should be mostly sandbox. Darkfall was just a tad too much sandbox, EQ was just right.

We have lots of parks where I live.

Vanguard!! it is the mix you seek!

Vanguard! Vanguard! Try it it is what you might be looking for. There is a 14 day free trial on SOE's site.

Add in my vote for Vanguard. as well. :)

If you have the comp, i would go for it.  Its really the best pve mmo out.  So much to do, and sandbox-ish.  Flight, diplomacy, excellent  crafting.  Its not without a few bugs but what mmo isnt?

I think the closest a game has come to what you want is SWG during its brief CU period.

CU kept most of the sandbox of precu and added themepark stuff with the new planets Kash and Musty (although Musty was in the CU period for like a week or two)

I think Shadowbane (RIP) had it right, and I'm not even a PVP player most of the time.  You can have goals within a sandbox setting, and therein lies the feeling of freedom that truly makes a gameworld live and breathe.

In Shadowbane, I might want to farm for gold, find a certain NPC trainer, or shop for gear in the city or town, all the time hoping to avoid ambush by other players or getting my gold lifted by a Thief character.  Every single time I logged into that game was exciting.

Now Shadowbane had other issues, mostly technical, but the design was the perfect sandbox.  Following a chosen goal is much more fun than following a quest script.

Most of you don't know what you want, which is why we have what we have.  Hat's off to the OP for being able to clearly articulate his view of a great MMO.

Vanguard is the way to go for that type of game, its exactly that! I have played since CB1 and although launch was a disaster it has much improved! It to me is currently the best mmo on the market right now...unfortunately alot of people are jaded and put off by it due to the poor launch and opening days and months it had. I play on the pvp server which is FFA anything goes. There are tons of politics involved, you can do crafting, ship sailing, pvp, questing, diplo, pvp, gathering, the quests dont really lead you to the next area as the world is so huge you can pretty much go to any continent and work on whatever you like. The dungeons are massive and well designed! It does have its bugs and issues but alot of them are all cleared up. So I would definately recommend giving it a try!

OP-

You need to try Fallen Earth.  The game is exactly what you're talking about....a Hybrid Sandbox/Themepark MMO and people are loving it. 

You have all the Freedom of a Sandbox (if you like to Explore, this is the game for you) with some of the best elements of a Themepark mmo built in...creating a VAST, seamless world in a sort of Western-Gunslinging-Post-Apoc Environment that is a blast!

Out of the 3 MMO's recently released (Champions Online, Aion, Fallen Earth) , Fallen Earth was by Far, the underdog but it's shaping up to be one of the best MMO's in many years.

Try it!

For all purposes, the OP described EVE.  (which is a bit light on the quest content I'll grant you)

Originally posted by Kyleran

For all purposes, the OP described EVE.  (which is a bit light on the quest content I'll grant you)

 

I've got my own issues with Eve, that I won't go into here.  To me, the game is just not fun.  I'll leave it at that. 

Originally posted by Shadowist

OP-

 

You need to try Fallen Earth.  The game is exactly what you're talking about....a Hybrid Sandbox/Themepark MMO and people are loving it. 

You have all the Freedom of a Sandbox (if you like to Explore, this is the game for you) with some of the best elements of a Themepark mmo built in...creating a VAST, seamless world in a sort of Western-Gunslinging-Post-Apoc Environment that is a blast!

Out of the 3 MMO's recently released (Champions Online, Aion, Fallen Earth) , Fallen Earth was by Far, the underdog but it's shaping up to be one of the best MMO's in many years.

 

Try it!

You mean the same Fallen Earth that people loved so much that on IGN critics gave it a 6 and users gave it a 6.6??  Or perhaps the one on N4G where they gave it 6/10?

Originally posted by robert4818

Originally posted by Kyleran

For all purposes, the OP described EVE.  (which is a bit light on the quest content I'll grant you)

 

I've got my own issues with Eve, that I won't go into here.  To me, the game is just not fun.  I'll leave it at that. 

Agreed

Originally posted by mmaize

You mean the same Fallen Earth that people loved so much that on IGN critics gave it a 6 and users gave it a 6.6??  Or perhaps the one on N4G where they gave it 6/10?

Yeah...the one that's currently ranked #1 on mmorpg.com.

Yep, that's the one.

Originally posted by mmaize

Most of you don't know what you want, which is why we have what we have.  Hat's off to the OP for being able to clearly articulate his view of a great MMO.

Players want "things to do", but you can have that without a quest trail or a storyline script to follow.  If there are clear goals (i.e., levelling, acquiring specific items for loot or crafting, raising faction, seeking out trainers or special skills, even trekking across a continent), then those are enough for players to fill their plates with.

No MMO need be on rails, is what I'm saying.  But that many are indicates more about developers than gamers.  Many dev's underestimate the players' abilities to address challenges and therefore spoon-feed them content.

Originally posted by pencilrick

I think Shadowbane (RIP) had it right, and I'm not even a PVP player most of the time.  You can have goals within a sandbox setting, and therein lies the feeling of freedom that truly makes a gameworld live and breathe.

In Shadowbane, I might want to farm for gold, find a certain NPC trainer, or shop for gear in the city or town, all the time hoping to avoid ambush by other players or getting my gold lifted by a Thief character.  Every single time I logged into that game was exciting.

Now Shadowbane had other issues, mostly technical, but the design was the perfect sandbox.  Following a chosen goal is much more fun than following a quest script.

I have to agree with you,  Shadowbane was an excellent Sandbox game, I loved the fact that the game was based off the player community.  Guilds constantly battling eachother for domination, large and small guilds rising up, only to be later destroyed.  And the PVP was soo much fun, you really had to be careful when you encountered a person on your journeys.  I also liked the fact there were tons of different stats and skill combinations, there was no ultimate right way to make a character, there were soo many variations.

I wish they would make another Shadowbane, or a game very similar to it.  I know that there is a group of people trying to emulate it and basically bring it back, but I think its due for a serious upgrade in graphics, some new content...basically a whole new makeover, but with the key concepts that made it soo great.

Originally posted by mmaize 

You mean the same Fallen Earth that people loved so much that on IGN critics gave it a 6 and users gave it a 6.6??  Or perhaps the one on N4G where they gave it 6/10?

Heh show how little those reviews are worth, most reviews these days give their ratings after how much add money the game is worth to the review site anyway.

FE is the ugly duckling of 2009 MMOs, a true gem and by far the best MMO released in years.

Yes, the hybrid mmo is the next generation.  Be patient, some developer will figure it out eventually.

Hallelujah brother!

er, I mean to say "yes" I want to be able to have general story and interesting quests but I also want to be able to explore and see and do things that others might not.

I believe in archetypes over playing a long time, pouring points into everything to get them all up to max and then being able to summon fire from the heavens while at the same time sword fighting all the queen's guards and the stealthily climbing up a wall in broad daylight. Yet it would be nice to be able to fool with the character creation so that one can capitalize on your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Hallelujah brother!

 

er, I mean to say "yes" I want to be able to have general story and interesting quests but I also want to be able to explore and see and do things that others might not.

I believe in archetypes over playing a long time, pouring points into everything to get them all up to max and then being able to summon fire from the heavens while at the same time sword fighting all the queen's guards and the stealthily climbing up a wall in broad daylight. Yet it would be nice to be able to fool with the character creation so that one can capitalize on your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

 

 

Let me ask, why do you need to "have a general story"?  What is important about having some pre-scripted destiny already mapped out when you could be a free-wandering adventurer in a world?

Originally posted by pencilrick

Originally posted by Sovrath

Hallelujah brother!

 

er, I mean to say "yes" I want to be able to have general story and interesting quests but I also want to be able to explore and see and do things that others might not.

I believe in archetypes over playing a long time, pouring points into everything to get them all up to max and then being able to summon fire from the heavens while at the same time sword fighting all the queen's guards and the stealthily climbing up a wall in broad daylight. Yet it would be nice to be able to fool with the character creation so that one can capitalize on your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

 

 

 

Let me ask, why do you need to "have a general story"?  What is important about having some pre-scripted destiny already mapped out when you could be a free-wandering adventurer in a world?

I think the idea was to have a world-wide overarching story that progresses in the background, that the player can choose to be a part of. 

Originally posted by pencilrick

Originally posted by Sovrath

Hallelujah brother!

 

er, I mean to say "yes" I want to be able to have general story and interesting quests but I also want to be able to explore and see and do things that others might not.

I believe in archetypes over playing a long time, pouring points into everything to get them all up to max and then being able to summon fire from the heavens while at the same time sword fighting all the queen's guards and the stealthily climbing up a wall in broad daylight. Yet it would be nice to be able to fool with the character creation so that one can capitalize on your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

 

 

 

Let me ask, why do you need to "have a general story"?  What is important about having some pre-scripted destiny already mapped out when you could be a free-wandering adventurer in a world?

Nobody said anything about a pre-scripted destiny.  I for one would like a sandbox game that the world changes in, and I have to adapt to it or die.  The world can have some stuff going on in it, that doesn't affect my ability to sandbox.

Quests in sandbox games should be generic, preferebly procedurally generated, and a part of the world.  There is a difference between city-park quests, and theme park quests. 

In a city-park quest a merchant asks you to collect stuff for him.  You can do it or not.  Another area has a town plaged by bandits, you can wipe them out.  etc.  Oh look, news ticker, Country A has just Declared war on Country B.  Maybe there is some work there that needs done!

In a theme-park quest, someone needs to make a magic potion, you have to collect the items, then take the potion to the guy who needs it, but it turns him horribly wrong, and now you have to defeat him as a monster.  Oh Congratulations you did that, go talk to my brother, he can use your help.