If you can't see that you are Forced to do all the missions just to get the the Ap ones you must be retarded. Sure I can not do them and lose a lot or I have to do them to keep up with others in pvp places and all.

I haven't tried Fallen Earth yet, but I have seen similar things in EVE Online. Players playing a sandbox as a linear themepark ( missioning in empire space ... ). I have caught myself doing this. It is not bad, but I wonder if it is the game to blame ...

Going to download and play the game now to see what all the fuzz is about :p

Originally posted by Deien

If you can't see that you are Forced to do all the missions just to get the the Ap ones you must be retarded. Sure I can not do them and lose a lot or I have to do them to keep up with others in pvp places and all.

See, that's the difference between us. I can see and accept that in your mindset you somehow feel that you must get all the AP. I have no issues with that and I'm not saying you should not.

You, on the other hand say I'm retarded, because I'm not feeling that compulsiveness. That tells everything about the both of us :)

DB

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Nobody is forcing anyone to do missions, now I can see it's the mindset of some folks that prevents them to understand it.

Just like an über-rare raid reward is optional, so is 20% of AP in this game. Effort = reward. Effort in this case is the mission chains you need to do them (still much easier than hundreds of hours of raiding, for instance).

To get the max AP in the game is a special reward, and not a must. Lots of folks will have fun playing and not caring about maxing them out, trust me. We have different mindsets, that's all.

DB

 

They're not optional. No one is missing the point but you. Keep playing you'll find out later what was missed if you skip them. your "mindset" won't keep your toon from turning out to be inferior without them and you're doing a great disservice to both other people and the game by insisting otherwise.

Dude,

Even playing the game is optional, so whatever you do in it, is optional :)

If I decide that I wanna stay low level, because I can have fun that way as well, then I can do it. It is only an option to level up :)

I'm sorry, but we are speaking at totally different planes of discussion, so I should have stopped at "further discussion is pointless" in my previous post, as you are just not able to grasp my mindset at all :D

DB 

One last sentence:

A game does NOT force anything on you.

YOU yourself force any kind stuff on you, because of the mindset you have when playing. In this case, your mindset is the urge of not being "inferior" to those others who can only imagine playing with a "maxxed out" character, whatever that means in a certain game.

Trust me, it's not the only way of playing an MMO :D

DB

Reading what people say about the game... in my opinion looks like the made a theme park game with a sandbox feeling. Maybe is not a bad idea at all.

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

One last sentence:

A game does NOT force anything on you.

YOU yourself force any kind stuff on you, because of the mindset you have when playing. In this case, your mindset is the urge of not being "inferior" to those others who can only imagine playing with a "maxxed out" character, whatever that means in a certain game.

Trust me, it's not the only way of playing an MMO :D

DB

Not saying you need every last AP.  You will eventually come up against things you can't do if you skipped a substantial number of them though. Maybe you don't care if you get face rolled but most people do. Sure you could play an MMO to stand in the town square roleplaying the village idiot if you wanted. Most people don't though. You can stop making assumptions about how I play MMOs and my mindset now. You couldn't be further off the mark.

Originally posted by Thillian

Character Development: C

 

The problem with the system is, that it doesn't really allow better customization than class system. Of course you can severly gimp yourself and spend points for crap. But if we consider the best builds, there's only a few.

There are no predefined classes here yes. In the past you have argued that "indiviudal customisation" is better than "pre-defined" as shown here

And now you argue in the opposite direction, have you changed your mind since then maybe? 

As with talents(that use sliders int, str,wis), when you consider the best build, there's only a few.

And in fact as i pointed out at the time, with a Rogue, only 1 best build.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

One last sentence:

A game does NOT force anything on you.

YOU yourself force any kind stuff on you, because of the mindset you have when playing. In this case, your mindset is the urge of not being "inferior" to those others who can only imagine playing with a "maxxed out" character, whatever that means in a certain game.

Trust me, it's not the only way of playing an MMO :D

DB

 

Not saying you need every last AP.  You will eventually come up against things you can't do if you skipped a substantial number of them though. Maybe you don't care if you get face rolled but most people do. Sure you could play an MMO to stand in the town square roleplaying the village idiot if you wanted. Most people don't though. You can stop making assumptions about how I play MMOs and my mindset now. You couldn't be further off the mark.

All you do is making assumptions on how others play :). At least now you are saying "most", instead of just generalizing these things to everyone in game.

I never PVP, so I could not care less about how über other folks are :) It's probably hard to grasp, but I see quite clearly so far why some people have no way of imagining how other folk's playstyle can be enitre different from theirs, and how in these people's eyes the option of doing missions for AP is not a fault - at all.

The game has a certain way of maxing your AP. It is a design decision. Some people don't like it, some others do, many others don't care. None of them are right or wrong, it's just a reflection of their own mindset what they think about it. Maybe some day you'll see this :)

Good day to you :)

DB

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

 

Dude,

Even playing the game is optional, so whatever you do in it, is optional :)

If I decide that I wanna stay low level, because I can have fun that way as well, then I can do it. It is only an option to level up :)

I'm sorry, but we are speaking at totally different planes of discussion, so I should have stopped at "further discussion is pointless" in my previous post, as you are just not able to grasp my mindset at all :D

DB 

Donnie, as you just said. Everything is optional in every game. So to say, doing missions is optional is not a valid argument. It's like saying - sure you don't like to level up in lotro? Just stay level 1 and run around naked in Bree, because leveling is optional.

I repeat myself. The game heavily rewards you to do as many of the 5500 missions as possible. They not only reward you with unique AP (that you will lose if you don't do the quest -  your character is capped at around 1100 APs, and without doing missions, you'll end up with 800)but also unique - crafting schematics, faction rewards, mounts and motorcycles etc. Winning in PvP also gives you just more missions first before you get rewards -> everything in this game is driven by missions. Sure they are optional, and you can avoid them, but then you miss huge part of the content for which you paid for.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Thillian

Character Development: C

 

The problem with the system is, that it doesn't really allow better customization than class system. Of course you can severly gimp yourself and spend points for crap. But if we consider the best builds, there's only a few.

 

There are no predefined classes here yes. In the past you have argued that "indiviudal customisation" is better than "pre-defined" as shown here

And now you argue in the opposite direction, have you changed your mind since then maybe? 

As with talents(that use sliders int, str,wis), when you consider the best build, there's only a few.

And in fact as i pointed out at the time, with a Rogue, only 1 best build.

No, you only cut a part you liked to make it look good for you. I said, the skill system fails in FE because unless you want to be severly gimped, you gotta follow certain build in order to get the faction ultimate ability - which is far more powerful than any other ability you can get. There are 6 factions, so one might say there are only six equally strong builds and the rest is crap. 

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

 

Dude,

Even playing the game is optional, so whatever you do in it, is optional :)

If I decide that I wanna stay low level, because I can have fun that way as well, then I can do it. It is only an option to level up :)

I'm sorry, but we are speaking at totally different planes of discussion, so I should have stopped at "further discussion is pointless" in my previous post, as you are just not able to grasp my mindset at all :D

DB 

 

Donnie, as you just said. Everything is optional in every game. So to say, doing missions is optional is not a valid argument. It's like saying - sure you don't like to level up in lotro? Just stay level 1 and run around naked in Bree, because leveling is optional.

I repeat myself. The game heavily rewards you to do as many of the 5500 missions as possible. They not only reward you with unique AP (that you will lose if you don't do the quest -  your character is capped at around 1100 APs, and without doing missions, you'll end up with 800)but also unique - crafting schematics, faction rewards, mounts and motorcycles etc. Winning in PvP also gives you just more missions first before you get rewards -> everything in this game is driven by missions. Sure they are optional, and you can avoid them, but then you miss huge part of the content for which you paid for.

That's a much more logical and well-thought argument, thank you! :)
 

Well, I have yet to see S2 and above, and especially factions quests, so I would be able to judge better. So far in S1 i have been running around in most towns, doing grey quests, more for fun than anything else (they don't really give XP, rewards are useless, and only a few gives AP), since I liked the stories (same as in Lotro:). Still, I could have levelled my toon and played the game if I haven't done any of those. The only exception was the ATV quest line, but only because I want to have a carrier in vehicle manufacturing ingame :)

If there will be any more missions that are so seriously restrictive, I would tend to agree more with your point, but I have yet to see those! So far I have really felt that quests are just one choosable aspect of the game, and not vital in any (most) ways.

DB

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Thillian

Character Development: C

 

The problem with the system is, that it doesn't really allow better customization than class system. Of course you can severly gimp yourself and spend points for crap. But if we consider the best builds, there's only a few.

 

There are no predefined classes here yes. In the past you have argued that "indiviudal customisation" is better than "pre-defined" as shown here

And now you argue in the opposite direction, have you changed your mind since then maybe? 

As with talents(that use sliders int, str,wis), when you consider the best build, there's only a few.

And in fact as i pointed out at the time, with a Rogue, only 1 best build.

No, you only cut a part you liked to make it look good for you. I said, the skill system fails in FE because unless you want to be severly gimped, you gotta follow certain build in order to get the faction ultimate ability - which is far more powerful than any other ability you can get. There are 6 factions, so one might say there are only six equally strong builds and the rest is crap. 

You need to consider that the level cap is 45 - but only for now. It' planned to be increased to 120 minimum, possibly to 150. So, whoever cannot get those fancy fashion uber traits at 45 due to not having done all AP quests, would still be able to get them after the first expansion with level cap increase. This could be a decision on purpose - we shall see.

DB

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Thillian

Character Development: C

 

The problem with the system is, that it doesn't really allow better customization than class system. Of course you can severly gimp yourself and spend points for crap. But if we consider the best builds, there's only a few.

 

There are no predefined classes here yes. In the past you have argued that "indiviudal customisation" is better than "pre-defined" as shown here

And now you argue in the opposite direction, have you changed your mind since then maybe? 

As with talents(that use sliders int, str,wis), when you consider the best build, there's only a few.

And in fact as i pointed out at the time, with a Rogue, only 1 best build.

No, you only cut a part you liked to make it look good for you. I said, the skill system fails in FE because unless you want to be severly gimped, you gotta follow certain build in order to get the faction ultimate ability - which is far more powerful than any other ability you can get. There are 6 factions, so one might say there are only six equally strong builds and the rest is crap. 

Yeah 6 strong builds the other maybe crap, although I can see some combination of rifle and pistol skills without having the top rifle skill to be very viable, i don't know since i am not high enough level to comment.

But at least it allows you, as once suggested here:

Thillian circa 2008: "There are games that allow you to be whatever you want to be. You can be a main healer, wear a leather armor, hide in shadows and make poisons for your deadly arrows at the same time. Or you can be a little clumsy mage wearing a plate mail reanimating dead bodies into skeletons. THERE ARE GAMES OUT THERE THAT ALLOW IT."

Of course being the main healer and hiding in shadows will no doubt be a crap build(for a main healer as you will be gimped on other improtant skill that are required by the main healer) but at least it allows it ;-)

 I just thought that you would love this class system, given your way of thinking in 2008!

Ok, just finished reading the whole thread and all I have to say is this: Donnie, you love patronizing people don't you?

Not really. At that time I was talking about DDo - and there are -- let's say hundreds of possible equally strong builds including the ones I mentioned. In FE -> the main problem are the ultimate powers. Without the proper combination of mutations and skills, you will miss out powerful ultimate faction ability. (Rifle ranged stun for instance) Each faction has 1 unique combination, so there's 6 builds(classes).

Originally posted by majinant

Ok, just finished reading the whole thread and all I have to say is this: Donnie, you love patronizing people don't you?

Nope, I'm only allergic to short-sightedness, and self-centered POV's :D

DB

Originally posted by Thillian

Not really. At that time I was talking about DDo - and there are -- let's say hundreds of possible equally strong builds including the ones I mentioned. In FE -> the main problem are the ultimate powers. Without the proper combination of mutations and skills, you will miss out powerful ultimate faction ability. (Rifle ranged stun for instance) Each faction has 1 unique combination, so there's 6 builds(classes).

Yes indeed, in its current form.

Although the game, FE is far from finished, as there are 150 lvls planned. Combined with the ability to move from faction to faction it may not be as rigid as you make out. Note that i am new to this game so cannot really substantiate anything.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Thillian

Not really. At that time I was talking about DDo - and there are -- let's say hundreds of possible equally strong builds including the ones I mentioned. In FE -> the main problem are the ultimate powers. Without the proper combination of mutations and skills, you will miss out powerful ultimate faction ability. (Rifle ranged stun for instance) Each faction has 1 unique combination, so there's 6 builds(classes).

 

Yes indeed, in its current form.

Although the game, FE is far from finished, as there are 150 lvls planned. Combined with the ability to move from faction to faction it may not be as rigid as you make out.

I posted here my impressions with the current state of the game. We should take a lesson from the past -> potential and promises are rarely fullfilled.

Frankly I realize the rating C- I put here was no fair to the game without first saying what it actually means and how it compares with the rest. To clarify, I would rate most of the last years game releases between C and D. It reflects my disappointment with the genre lately.

Still, I keep playing FE and there's a certain quality in it. Sometimes I feel FE is the worst game I've ever played, and sometimes I feel like it's the best one.

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

One last sentence:

A game does NOT force anything on you.

YOU yourself force any kind stuff on you, because of the mindset you have when playing. In this case, your mindset is the urge of not being "inferior" to those others who can only imagine playing with a "maxxed out" character, whatever that means in a certain game.

Trust me, it's not the only way of playing an MMO :D

DB

 

Not saying you need every last AP.  You will eventually come up against things you can't do if you skipped a substantial number of them though. Maybe you don't care if you get face rolled but most people do. Sure you could play an MMO to stand in the town square roleplaying the village idiot if you wanted. Most people don't though. You can stop making assumptions about how I play MMOs and my mindset now. You couldn't be further off the mark.

 

All you do is making assumptions on how others play :). At least now you are saying "most", instead of just generalizing these things to everyone in game.

I never PVP, so I could not care less about how über other folks are :) It's probably hard to grasp, but I see quite clearly so far why some people have no way of imagining how other folk's playstyle can be enitre different from theirs, and how in these people's eyes the option of doing missions for AP is not a fault - at all.

The game has a certain way of maxing your AP. It is a design decision. Some people don't like it, some others do, many others don't care. None of them are right or wrong, it's just a reflection of their own mindset what they think about it. Maybe some day you'll see this :)

Good day to you :)

DB

I'm sorry, is there something about the word assumptions you don't understand? When people do something it's not an assumption. Its an action. You clear on that now? I'm not assuming people are doing these things they are telling me they are and the reasons for it. I'm watching them do them. That's an observation not an assumption. Are you clear on what an assumption is yet? Would you care to show me a game where most people roleplay the village idiot? A cursory investigation shows m it doesn't exist. That's a fact not an assumption. Do you understand what an assumption is?  There's nothing hard to grasp here.

You are in the minority. Trying to apply your opinions to the majority when you're in the minority is simply bullshit. It is a flaw in the game and many players see it as a flaw. It may not be a flaw that affects you because of your playstyle but that makes it no less a flaw to the people who need to grind those AP or become whipping boys. The flaw isn't even that those AP exist it's that the method of obtaining them and the level at which they are introduced is poorly integrated into game play. I might also note if you continue to progress to higner sectors in the game you will eventually be involved in PvP. It might be as the hapless victim waiting to be slaughtered but you will be in PvP. Wouldn't it be nice to have a few extra AP to dedicate to, oh I don't know, surviving the experience? One might even suggest if you want to survive you'll need them.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

One last sentence:

A game does NOT force anything on you.

YOU yourself force any kind stuff on you, because of the mindset you have when playing. In this case, your mindset is the urge of not being "inferior" to those others who can only imagine playing with a "maxxed out" character, whatever that means in a certain game.

Trust me, it's not the only way of playing an MMO :D

DB

 

Not saying you need every last AP.  You will eventually come up against things you can't do if you skipped a substantial number of them though. Maybe you don't care if you get face rolled but most people do. Sure you could play an MMO to stand in the town square roleplaying the village idiot if you wanted. Most people don't though. You can stop making assumptions about how I play MMOs and my mindset now. You couldn't be further off the mark.

 

All you do is making assumptions on how others play :). At least now you are saying "most", instead of just generalizing these things to everyone in game.

I never PVP, so I could not care less about how über other folks are :) It's probably hard to grasp, but I see quite clearly so far why some people have no way of imagining how other folk's playstyle can be enitre different from theirs, and how in these people's eyes the option of doing missions for AP is not a fault - at all.

The game has a certain way of maxing your AP. It is a design decision. Some people don't like it, some others do, many others don't care. None of them are right or wrong, it's just a reflection of their own mindset what they think about it. Maybe some day you'll see this :)

Good day to you :)

DB

 

I'm sorry, is there something about the word assumptions you don't understand? When people do something it's not an assumption. Its an action. You clear on that now? I'm not assuming people are doing these things they are telling me they are and the reasons for it. (some certainly do, while others, who don't mind it - don't. You have no info about the latter, do you?)  I'm watching them do them. (and you don't see those who don't, do you?) That's an observation not an assumption.(yes, the assumption part is this:  you assume, that those you don't see, do the same) Are you clear on what an assumption is yet? There's nothing hard to grasp here. You are in the minority . (in your assumption only) Trying to apply your opinions to the majority (this is what YOU do actually, not me, see above) when you're in the minority (assumed by you)  is simply bullshit. It is a flaw in the game (no, it's a decision that you and some others don't like) and many players see it as a flaw.(is that admitting - finally - that not everyone sees it as flaw? A breakthrough, wow:) It may not be a flaw that affects you because of your playstyle (yes! light in the tunnel) but that makes it no less a flaw to the people who need to grind those AP or become whipping boys (you're finally getting a grasp of the whole idea, nice :). The flaw isn't even that those AP exist it's that the method of obtaining them and the level at which they are introduced is poorly integrated into game play. (Again, not a flaw, a decision, that SOME people - you ASSUME the majority) don't like.)

Comments with green, and assumptions highlighted in red. If you still don't get it (although by the second half of your paragraph you're getting there, slowly :), then I'm afraid there IS really nothing here left to do.

Check the OP's comments and my replies to those. There IS conversation to be had, but sadly, not with people who are completely overconfident that their point of view is the only one in known existence :)

DB

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Thillian

Not really. At that time I was talking about DDo - and there are -- let's say hundreds of possible equally strong builds including the ones I mentioned. In FE -> the main problem are the ultimate powers. Without the proper combination of mutations and skills, you will miss out powerful ultimate faction ability. (Rifle ranged stun for instance) Each faction has 1 unique combination, so there's 6 builds(classes).

 

Yes indeed, in its current form.

Although the game, FE is far from finished, as there are 150 lvls planned. Combined with the ability to move from faction to faction it may not be as rigid as you make out.

 

I posted here my impressions with the current state of the game. We should take a lesson from the past -> potential and promises are rarely fullfilled.

Frankly I realize the rating C- I put here was no fair to the game without first saying what it actually means and how it compares with the rest. To clarify, I would rate most of the last years game releases between C and D. It reflects my disappointment with the genre lately.

Still, I keep playing FE and there's a certain quality in it. Sometimes I feel FE is the worst game I've ever played, and sometimes I feel like it's the best one.

It's natural to be careful with promises, but it has been said many times that the level cap will grow - I'd really not doubt that, given the fact the S4 is already done, while S5 is in the tube....

DB

Originally posted by Thillian

Not really. At that time I was talking about DDo - and there are -- let's say hundreds of possible equally strong builds including the ones I mentioned. In FE -> the main problem are the ultimate powers. Without the proper combination of mutations and skills, you will miss out powerful ultimate faction ability. (Rifle ranged stun for instance) Each faction has 1 unique combination, so there's 6 builds(classes).

Umm yes and no. I think there will be combinations of builds found that don't require the use of those special faction based abilities. i actually think there are only three real classes in the game. Rifle Pistol and Melee. Pure support classes aren't going to be viable without an offensive capability. Mutation doesn't provide enough DPS to be it's own class category but will be a viable hybrid with the other three. I thing we're looking at about 18 to 24 viable PvP builds plus the pure PvE variants. That's still very limited as compared to some games but it's more a limitation imposed by the genre and FPS aiming than the raw character design choices. That's a very early opinion on my part and there's certainly room for disagreement.

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

One last sentence:

A game does NOT force anything on you.

YOU yourself force any kind stuff on you, because of the mindset you have when playing. In this case, your mindset is the urge of not being "inferior" to those others who can only imagine playing with a "maxxed out" character, whatever that means in a certain game.

Trust me, it's not the only way of playing an MMO :D

DB

 

Not saying you need every last AP.  You will eventually come up against things you can't do if you skipped a substantial number of them though. Maybe you don't care if you get face rolled but most people do. Sure you could play an MMO to stand in the town square roleplaying the village idiot if you wanted. Most people don't though. You can stop making assumptions about how I play MMOs and my mindset now. You couldn't be further off the mark.

 

All you do is making assumptions on how others play :). At least now you are saying "most", instead of just generalizing these things to everyone in game.

I never PVP, so I could not care less about how über other folks are :) It's probably hard to grasp, but I see quite clearly so far why some people have no way of imagining how other folk's playstyle can be enitre different from theirs, and how in these people's eyes the option of doing missions for AP is not a fault - at all.

The game has a certain way of maxing your AP. It is a design decision. Some people don't like it, some others do, many others don't care. None of them are right or wrong, it's just a reflection of their own mindset what they think about it. Maybe some day you'll see this :)

Good day to you :)

DB

 

I'm sorry, is there something about the word assumptions you don't understand? When people do something it's not an assumption. Its an action. You clear on that now? I'm not assuming people are doing these things they are telling me they are and the reasons for it. (some certainly do, while others, who don't mind it - don't. You have no info about the latter, do you?)  I'm watching them do them. (and you don't see those who don't, do you?) That's an observation not an assumption.(yes, the assumption part is this:  you assume, that those you don't see, do the same) Are you clear on what an assumption is yet? There's nothing hard to grasp here. You are in the minority . (in your assumption only) Trying to apply your opinions to the majority (this is what YOU do actually, not me, see above) when you're in the minority (assumed by you)  is simply bullshit. It is a flaw in the game (no, it's a decision that you and some others don't like) and many players see it as a flaw.(is that admitting - finally - that not everyone sees it as flaw? A breakthrough, wow:) It may not be a flaw that affects you because of your playstyle (yes! light in the tunnel) but that makes it no less a flaw to the people who need to grind those AP or become whipping boys (you're finally getting a grasp of the whole idea, nice :). The flaw isn't even that those AP exist it's that the method of obtaining them and the level at which they are introduced is poorly integrated into game play. (Again, not a flaw, a decision, that SOME people - you ASSUME the majority) don't like.)

 

Comments with green, and assumptions highlighted in red. If you still don't get it (although by the second half of your paragraph you're getting there, slowly :), then I'm afraid there IS really nothing here left to do.

Check the OP's comments and my replies to those. There IS conversation to be had, but sadly, not with people who are completely overconfident that their point of view is the only one in known existence :)

DB

Buy a dictionary. Look up the words assumption and observation and the phrase empirical evidence. If you still don't get it you're beyond hope and conversing with you is a waste of time because I can only assume you are incapable of understanding simple English. The "decision" it is what is flawed. How do I know what people I don't see in the game are doing? I ask them, I read the forums and I follow the trends. That's not accurate enough to give a percentage but it's enough to determine a simple majority. I grasp that you think yuor opinion is more accurate than the opinion of the majority of people playing the game despite all evidence to the contary. I grasp that despite the evidence to the contrary you're asserting I'm in the minority in saying it's a flaw. That is, as I said, bullshit.
 

Thank you for the info on the game.  I'm going to wait for a retail price drop before I dive in and give it a try.