Quote from my guildmaster:

"I just wanted to comment on this. Shadowbane wasn't the best pvp game. It was the best GROUP/GUILD pvp game. It took coordination, dedication, tactics, thinking outside the box, and it took discipline to be great in that game. No game has even come CLOSE to the amount of analysis Shadowbane required to be cream of the crop. There was ONE reason for this. The MASSIVE amount of character builds and variation, and the speed at which you could build those characters. The game was a never ending rock/paper/scissors match. You could kill an entire week just building, testing, and analyzing different builds and spec groups. AS A GUILD. It is one of the main reasons I can't get into any other MMO. The Shadowbane system spoiled me. I just get BLEEPing bored with the garbage character/group dynamics in every other game. It's too simple. There's just nothing to it. Outside of Shadowbane, there really is no such thing as a true "spec group". All these other games really have nothing to work on as a guild either... Unless you count farming..."

There will be no game like it, ever, because developers have the WoW virus they just cant get rid of.

 I agree. The problem is how little of todays market share of MMO player experanced Shadowbane.   

Hypothicaly speaking:

5k of the 1million mmo fans experanced and loved Shadowbane but the rest never played and maybe a small minority did not like the game.  

Hopefully one of the fans of Shadowbane will be in a position to help recreate the dyanamics of the core game.

Interesting.  Million of gamers, you know no more than a handful.  But you suggest they never play or know of SB.

Very brave assumption indeed.

OR... a safer assumption: Lots of gamers experienced Shaowbane and couldn't stand the crashes, bugs, lag, lack of customer service, missing content, lies from the developers or dozens of other problems the game had. When people can't even get a game to work properly its hard for them to see the "genius" behind its design.

I find it ironic that Darkfall has many of the same problems. Maybe there is something about these PvP games which causes this?

Originally posted by Raltar

OR... a safer assumption: Lots of gamers experienced Shaowbane and couldn't stand the crashes, bugs, lag, lack of customer service, missing content, lies from the developers or dozens of other problems the game had. When people can't even get a game to work properly its hard for them to see the "genius" behind its design.

I find it ironic that Darkfall has many of the same problems. Maybe there is something about these PvP games which causes this?

Not all PvP games are horribly implemented.  GW is a PvP game at the end, arena game.  Very smooth.

DAoC is the king of RvR, despite all the issues, the epic RvRs are still the best memories I can recall.

Blame the company, not the genre.  DF crashes and burns b/c the developer AV are a bunch of crooks.

Originally posted by lisubab

Not all PvP games are horribly implemented.  GW is a PvP game at the end, arena game. DAoC is the king of RvR, despite all the issues, the epic RvRs are still the best memories I can recall.

I'm talking about OPEN PVP games, where anyone can attack anyone else at any time. GW doesn't fit that bill because PvP happens only in instanced areas where people choose to enter (not to mention the majority of the game is PvE, I did play it for three years you know). RvR also does not fit in that category.

And yes, before someone else says it: EVE. While its true you can attack anyone anywhere, there are still large portions of the game which protect the players from this and for the most part it doesn't happen.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by lisubab

Not all PvP games are horribly implemented.  GW is a PvP game at the end, arena game. DAoC is the king of RvR, despite all the issues, the epic RvRs are still the best memories I can recall.

I'm talking about OPEN PVP games, where anyone can attack anyone else at any time. GW doesn't fit that bill because PvP happens only in instanced areas where people choose to enter (not to mention the majority of the game is PvE, I did play it for three years you know). RvR also does not fit in that category.

And yes, before someone else says it: EVE. While its true you can attack anyone anywhere, there are still large portions of the game which protect the players from this and for the most part it doesn't happen.

OK with this qualifier, I would agree with most of what you are saying.

Open PVP general degenerates to griefing, to piss talking and very very rude irresponsible playing.  I have my share of it with the years in UO.  When a better game comes out, I never look back.  I do not enjoy killing people just for the sake of doing that.  No reason, no nothing, just being a sucker is not my style.  I do not enjoy in company with griefers, big talkers and total nuts.  I want to enjoy my after hours, not as a sucker.

That is me.  I know there are people who like to roam around and pick fights.  It just is not me.

I think UO is the last open PVP that is implemented with limited degree of success.  That is largely b/c more orderly games like DAoC or SWG were not out there in the market.  Once these 2 come out, most of those I play with in UO moved, if not already gone.  The natural tendency to slide into total griefing just does not fit out bill.

When was the last time you played Shadowbane? There was always something to do that didn't require you to just go out an PK people. If there weren't banes, there were mines, if there weren't mines, there was rune camping, or designing/building your next build.

Shadowbane had IMO the best end game content because it was always changing.

At the end game in something like WoW, all you do is farm the AH, dailies, and do boring instanced PvP in between guild raids.

Nostalgia > Reality

OP = Opinion

If it was so great, why was EVERYONE crying about thieves 'Stealin ur loots' by the end of the first month?

Then it was thief DPS, then Warrior DPS/Tank balance, then Archers, then invis. then... then... then... ETC!

Please it was the same as any PvP MMO. They put out a design and then 100,000 people who call PvErs 'Carebears' suddenly start crying a river about this class or that class spanking them pink.

Nope. PvP always sucks because it's always the biggest cry babies in gaming.

If PvErs are 'Carebears', PvPers name must be 'Whiners'.

Actually, the carebears were the whiners.

There was a small niche of guilds that stayed in SB through thick and thin and are among the best PvPers that ever played the game.

Why?

Because real PvPers don't whine when they lose, they get better.

And SB had the perfect model because you could roll a new spec to counter what you lost to in a day of PLing if you tried.

The beauty of Shadowbane is that it required, I would say equal parts of skill and smart. Smart to design the best character. Skill to play it to its capacity.

So if you lost to some new FOTM build, it challenged you to come up with a counter to it.

Originally posted by Reltius

Actually, the carebears were the whiners.

There was a small niche of guilds that stayed in SB through thick and thin and are among the best PvPers that ever played the game.

Why?

Because real PvPers don't whine when they lose, they get better.

And SB had the perfect model because you could roll a new spec to counter what you lost to in a day of PLing if you tried.

The beauty of Shadowbane is that it required, I would say equal parts of skill and smart. Smart to design the best character. Skill to play it to its capacity.

So if you lost to some new FOTM build, it challenged you to come up with a counter to it.

 Dumbest comment I've ever heard, that is as dumb as PvP Whiners killed EQ.

If you had actually been there you would know the ratio of PvErs to PvPers in SB was about opposite to PvPers to PvErs in EQ1.

I was there from beta to reboot, The boards were full of PvPers crying as they always do. Change this, this is too hard! Whaa Whaa Whaa... What do you think PvP crying is a new feature of PvP games? Suddenly a generation came along and decided they couldn't hang with the old PvPers? WRONG!

PvP whining has infected, infested, and corrupted every PvP game from UO to Warhammer. I have been there to see it all.

Less QQ moar Pew Pew...

I played it from launch, and shadowbane was the worst game I ever played. You couldn't pvp well unless you had a certain skills, for which you had to kill a certain mob, and woa be unto the poor little guild that built a city to close to where it spawned. By the end of the game all you could do was join one of the three uber guilds that invariably were on each server, most of which had once been one guild then they got to big and a blood fued split them apart. I went into shadowbane expecting a game, there was lore there, and I wanted to build a character with a story. Instead I ended up having to become a greifer just to keep the little island my guild lived on safe. If anyone showed up from the mainland we killed them on the shore while they were still tired. It was what we had to do to survive.

Calling this game any kind of pvp masterpeice means the rose tinted glasses of the past have gotten to you pretty good. Shadowbane was a very bad example of what a game should be, the only reason some players played as long as they did was because the started the game at launch and three years later were still playing off free game time.

Please do not necro old threads.

Locked.