Wanna see what I wish we saw in MMORPG's when it comes to combat...just this....blood, sweat and muscles.   You can keep this...long TTK and flashy artsy combat.   

One of the keys in PvP based games is knowing your enemy, with flashy effects, developers are able to separate further the appareance of skills, what would competitive games like Dota do if the skills werent so over the top/flashy...you wouldn't know what your enemy is doing, specially if things get slightly massive.

In the example you've posted, Aion, If devs didn't separate the animation of skills such as word of destruction as much as they did thanks to flashy effects, I would die a lot, lucky me, thanks to the visual help im able to identify the skill my enemy is using and react accordingly.

If the MOB is coming at you with a sword...what is it you need to know?  If they are approaching with a spear, what exactly do you need to know?  If they are shooting a bow...can you not see that they are shooting a bow?   Get the ideal?

No thanks, I'd like to see some actual excitement in combat. The more flashy, the better.

Keep realism out of a genre that clearly isn't built for realism in the first place.

More Flash, More action, More fun.

Originally posted by Teala

If the MOB is coming at you with a sword...what is it you need to know?  If they are approaching with a spear, what exactly do you need to know?  If they are shooting a bow...can you not see that they are shooting a bow?   Get the ideal?

Are we talking about basic PvE easy mode encounters here? Cause I was talking about complex fights and PvP with many skills available.

Gotta agree about the effects helping you be aware of whats happening. Hell i remember in WAR, there were AOE spells, like Pit of Shades that the Sorcs had. The advice was, when you see that big black pit start opening up under your feet RUN! but if not for those flashy effects you wouldnt know any better and you would just be sanding there getting killed.

At the same time, it does get kind of ridiculous in a few games. Big flashy special effects and jumping around, just for firing off 1 arrow or something. Its like they try too hard to make every skill "epic" looking, instead of leaving that to the skills that really deserve it.

I'm actually waiting on a MMO where I don't see a bunch of lights and glittery effects when fighting.

Sometimes I don't know rather to grab my sword and shield in a MMO or my disco dancing shoes, I agree with Teala on this one.

 I agree. Games have gotten so complex with band aids bandaging other band aids, a return to the basics may not be a bad idea. 

I'll side with more of the realism then flash.  You can make the abilities look different without putting in explosions of color or blinding flashes of light a la styles from DAoC.  Only the casters there had fancy flourishes and explosions which was perfectly fine with me.  Melee fighters would differentiate themselves by doing a hop on an attack, or doing a spin and then a swing just to name a few examples.  The only time you saw an explosion or some sort of effect was when the weapon had a magical direct damage spell applied to it that would go off as a chance on hit.  Seems like the newer games have "flash" even when there's no need for it.

 Gonna have to weigh in here.

Although I'm okay with reasonably flashy or at least well-differentiated graphics, I'm also very cool with the idea of having time-to-kill run shorter.  I've been playing more Demon's Souls than I probably should, and things boil down to a very solid fight in that game; trading blows, blocking and parrying and dodging and looking for an opening, and when that opening makes itself known on either side, the action happens quickly and nigh-inexorably.  Things can go for a good while while the opponents figure one another out, and then there's a flurry of intense activity before a clear victor emerges.

I like that kind of fighting.  Being a medieval reenactor from way back, I like the idea a lot, although I recognize that folks need to be able to help their situation in MMOs, and that realism does not always equal fun.  Still, shorter TTKs in one-on-one combat and more intense action (not basic activity once every 1.5 seconds) would make me happier.

Age of Conan has the muscles and solid combat moves with a chance of a juicy head chop chop.

While I understand what you are saying.. and to a certain point agree. Some of the others here have a point.  I remember when I used to be decent in PvP  in wow :P I could see on the spell animations what would come and use the correct counterspell. That makes it pretty interesting.

Its all about what type of mechanic you are looking for. In good old pen and paper RPG ( and diablo style game ) its dices that decide outcome. Its what you prefer really. If you want dices and number or a larger portion of your own skill and reaction.

Since I am generally pretty bad in skill and reaction I dont mind dices :) But I understand all those that enjoy a little more complex combat.

Flash can really take the immersion out of it for me. I don't even enjoy a small amount of it.

I find it also makes things feel a little too arcadey/childish (merely the way I feel, not trying to insult).

Originally posted by Teala

If the MOB is coming at you with a sword...what is it you need to know?  If they are approaching with a spear, what exactly do you need to know?  If they are shooting a bow...can you not see that they are shooting a bow?   Get the ideal?

While i'm sure that in such shallow games like Mount and Blade, having a person come up to you with a sword is all you need to know, in more indepth games that have more than just standard attack, you really don't know anything as you don't know what skill is being used.

Originally posted by blueshadow

Its all about what type of mechanic you are looking for. In good old pen and paper RPG ( and diablo style game ) its dices that decide outcome. Its what you prefer really. If you want dices and number or a larger portion of your own skill and reaction.

Since I am generally pretty bad in skill and reaction I dont mind dices :) But I understand all those that enjoy a little more complex combat.

How in the world did you draw a conclusion that the people who don't like flash all of a sudden like dice roll combat?  All we said was take the flash out, we didn't say make the skills all look the same.  Is it really necessary to have a giant pillar of fire hit your target when you only swung a mace?

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Teala

If the MOB is coming at you with a sword...what is it you need to know?  If they are approaching with a spear, what exactly do you need to know?  If they are shooting a bow...can you not see that they are shooting a bow?   Get the ideal?

 

While i'm sure that in such shallow games like Mount and Blade, having a person come up to you with a sword is all you need to know, in more indepth games that have more than just standard attack, you really don't know anything as you don't know what skill is being used.

I would hardly consider Mount and Blade shallow.

Originally posted by Illius

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Teala

If the MOB is coming at you with a sword...what is it you need to know?  If they are approaching with a spear, what exactly do you need to know?  If they are shooting a bow...can you not see that they are shooting a bow?   Get the ideal?

 

While i'm sure that in such shallow games like Mount and Blade, having a person come up to you with a sword is all you need to know, in more indepth games that have more than just standard attack, you really don't know anything as you don't know what skill is being used.

I would hardly consider Mount and Blade shallow.

It's combat is really shallow. Oh it's realistic and difficult, sure, but that doesn't mean it has depth.

Originally posted by Illius

Originally posted by blueshadow

Its all about what type of mechanic you are looking for. In good old pen and paper RPG ( and diablo style game ) its dices that decide outcome. Its what you prefer really. If you want dices and number or a larger portion of your own skill and reaction.

Since I am generally pretty bad in skill and reaction I dont mind dices :) But I understand all those that enjoy a little more complex combat.

How in the world did you draw a conclusion that the people who don't like flash all of a sudden like dice roll combat?  All we said was take the flash out, we didn't say make the skills all look the same.  Is it really necessary to have a giant pillar of fire hit your target when you only swung a mace?

Maybe I  got it wrong..

But if its the effects you are talking about. Isnt it usually possible to reduce the level of FX details ?..

On a more serious not.  I guess that the game developers feel a certain preassure to make things more and more "". Just like what happened in the movie industry. They try to overdo each other in effects and such.. someone has to be brave enough to break the circle.

That said.. I  have not seen a game yet with "too"  much.. but thats probably because I  like flash and colors and stuff :)  Its a matter of taste at the end of the day.

Flash can and is often over done in some games for sure. But I do like some visual cues to alert me to my and my opponents skills or talents.

The big flashy stuff I will agree is annoying, unless it is supposed to be a big flashy spell.

Originally posted by Illius

Originally posted by blueshadow

Its all about what type of mechanic you are looking for. In good old pen and paper RPG ( and diablo style game ) its dices that decide outcome. Its what you prefer really. If you want dices and number or a larger portion of your own skill and reaction.

Since I am generally pretty bad in skill and reaction I dont mind dices :) But I understand all those that enjoy a little more complex combat.

How in the world did you draw a conclusion that the people who don't like flash all of a sudden like dice roll combat?  All we said was take the flash out, we didn't say make the skills all look the same.  Is it really necessary to have a giant pillar of fire hit your target when you only swung a mace?

If that giant pillar of fire is warning me that I have a DoT on me that must be disspelled, then yes, the giant pillar of fire is useful. If we are talking about a game with 3 skills per class, then I might not need that giant pillar of fire.

::licks her bloodied blade::  The only effect I need is the blood as it spurts from where my enemies head once was.    ::ebil grin::

Long TTK typically makes for deeper combat.

When you play 1v1 Basketball with a friend, you don't say "Whoever scores first wins."  You play to a certain point value.  Because that's how you determine the person who consistently makes the least mistakes and plays the best -- and that's who deserves to win the contest of skill.

Ephimero's point is another very important reason combat is flashy in games.  It's extremely important in any game for the visuals to communicate what's happening.  That way players can react or at least realize what's happening.  (Though combat visuals can certainly be too noisy, and that's bad too.)

It is really gaudy I think, and it is not like I am looking for a really realistic game either, truth being most the time I find realism just boring but the glowies are just distracting from the action. I would rather have abilities displayed through good solid animations rather than glowy effects and by good I don't mean triple backflips or something silly like that.

Not like you need them anyway, the glow doesn't tell you anything your debuff window does not, not like it matters if you see the glow you have already been hit anyway and I doubt people memorize the particular glow effect for ech ability in the game.

I can see having glow effects for magic, though even then they can get out of hand, but for melee or ranged it is just silly looking.

 Gotta disagree with you there.

Long TTK doesn't really make for deeper combat.  For the most part, long TTK has more to do with how long is spent on each mob (obviously), and it really has no effect whatsoever on how deep or shallow combat is.  For Knights in Aion, the first few levels, combat is incredibly shallow and lasts for ten to twelve seconds apiece.  For a mage, it's two casts of the same spell, spanning two, possibly three seconds.  One has a short TTK, one long, and neither particularly complex.  In that example, I'd take short over long any day.

In another game I've been frequenting lately, Demon's Souls, combat is relatively simple and leadup and preparation is very important.  Are you below half of your equip burden?  If not, then you can't roll out of the way of heavy blows as effectively, but it's possible that the extra weight adds enough damage mitigation to make that worthwhile.  Are you fighting a skeleton?  Then swords won't be as good as maces.  There's a lot of setup, and an easy way to carry around a few different 'outfits' as it were at any one time, swapping nigh-seamlessly between.  This adds a lot of complexity to an otherwise simple (Light attack/heavy attack, block/parry) action RPG combat system.  That, and the incredible amount of damage both you and enemies deal, means that there's a lot of time and thought spent preparing for any particular battle, then a bit of a standoff while both opponents test one another.  A quick flurry of action, and a victor.  Very simple at the core, but intensely in-depth when you're actually working your strategy out.

It's an interesting, engaging combat system, which many modern MMORPGs lack, and its TTK is short, sweet, and brutal.  There's no downward spiral, no 'oh god I pulled too much and now I'll slowly die to all the damage'.  If you pull too much, you die.  If you're conscientious and cautious, you live, often returning from combat without so much as a scratch.

I'm all about that sort of thing.  I'd like to see skill and preparation be a heftier player in combat than gear and how many hit points the players have to slew through before they're killed.

Plus MMOs should be first person.  Sick of these shitty third person view games like WoW and AION.  Think I wanna look at my character? No, I am the character, so I should have the same fucking viewpoint.   Garbage ass lame companies