Originally posted by mrw0lf

Firstly, how many times is it possible to have the same thread with a different title, the contents of each one being nothing but flame and reflame.

Secondly, SV put forward an offer, to pre-order/purchase their game. At which point everyone gets to make their decision to take them up on it or not. (I would like to point out at this is nothing really new in regards to indy devs making games. I have donated to a number of games in development and will most likely if I feel the project has merit, do so again in the future). Instead of asking for donations SV offered a prepurchase scheme, and those that took up the offer got to beta the game, which to me seems like a massive plus, those beta'ing the game have an investment in it and will give more constructive feedback than people just looking for a bit of free play.

Purely from a personal perspective, I want to play a new mmo that offers the features being touted by MO, I know there is not a chance in hell any large dev is going to make that game in my lifetime (not when they can make another wow and cash in) so indy is all I have. Is it preferential? No, but instead of sitting on these boards continuously moaning, whinning, bitching and crying about the 'good ol days' I am more than happy to put my money where my mouth is and put some cash up for any dev willing to make that game,.... then come to these boards maon whine and bitch anyway!

You can do whatever you want with your money, throw it in a lake for all I care, but the fact is that Starvault sold non existing copies of the game (pre-purchases) and used the privileage to beta test their game as a bait. Hence at this moment what you are actually paying for is to beta test their game since you have not received any copy of the game yet. So depending on how you twist it you can say that you (pre)purchased the game and got beta as a bonus but you can just as much say that you paid to pre-purchase the game AND beta test it.

Add do this that it is very hard to cancel your pre-purchase (something that was NOT clear when doing the so called pre orders since pre orders are almost always very easy to cancel) then it is natural that most "normal" customers are upset. I for one pre-ordered the game and thought that if the game did not release when they, at that time, estimated it would (Q3 -09) then I would just cancel my pre-order. But since apparently this is a pre-purchase such a cancelation does not seem to be possible so theoretically they could hang on to my money indefinetely, and delaying the release for years (like Darkfall) without shipping anything to me.

And again most "normal" customers would be upset if such a thing happened.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by mrw0lf

Firstly, how many times is it possible to have the same thread with a different title, the contents of each one being nothing but flame and reflame.

Secondly, SV put forward an offer, to pre-order/purchase their game. At which point everyone gets to make their decision to take them up on it or not. (I would like to point out at this is nothing really new in regards to indy devs making games. I have donated to a number of games in development and will most likely if I feel the project has merit, do so again in the future). Instead of asking for donations SV offered a prepurchase scheme, and those that took up the offer got to beta the game, which to me seems like a massive plus, those beta'ing the game have an investment in it and will give more constructive feedback than people just looking for a bit of free play.

Purely from a personal perspective, I want to play a new mmo that offers the features being touted by MO, I know there is not a chance in hell any large dev is going to make that game in my lifetime (not when they can make another wow and cash in) so indy is all I have. Is it preferential? No, but instead of sitting on these boards continuously moaning, whinning, bitching and crying about the 'good ol days' I am more than happy to put my money where my mouth is and put some cash up for any dev willing to make that game,.... then come to these boards maon whine and bitch anyway!

You can do whatever you want with your money, throw it in a lake for all I care, but the fact is that Starvault sold non existing copies of the game (pre-purchases) and used the privileage to beta test their game as a bait. Hence at this moment what you are actually paying for is to beta test their game since you have not received any copy of the game yet. So depending on how you twist it you can say that you (pre)purchased the game and got beta as a bonus but you can just as much say that you paid to pre-purchase the game AND beta test it.

Add do this that it is very hard to cancel your pre-purchase (something that was NOT clear when doing the so called pre orders since pre orders are almost always very easy to cancel) then it is natural that most "normal" customers are upset. I for one pre-ordered the game and thought that if the game did not release when they, at that time, estimated it would (Q3 -09) then I would just cancel my pre-order. But since apparently this is a pre-purchase such a cancelation does not seem to be possible so theoretically they could hang on to my money indefinetely, and delaying the release for years (like Darkfall) without shipping anything to me.

And again most "normal" customers would be upset if such a thing happened.

Not even going to get into it with you with the whole pre-order beta bullshit.

For your normal customers that are upset they can just shove it, everyone knew what they were buying and if they didn't than they really don't deserve a refund anyway because they were stupid enough to pre-order without reading what they were actually buying.

A game being pushed back in todays market is far from a rare thing, just this year alone atleast 10 games have had their release dates pushed back, I decided what to do with my money with the understanding if I bought the game I wouldn't get my money back because they said specifically no refunds will be available, so I plan on waiting till release. If it sucks oh well, if its a great game than I already have my copy and am ready to play.

pay attention much?

anyone can get a "refund" by disputing the charge

if you really, really need a reason - have you received the game that was to be shipped in september?

and if they do actually ship in the few days that are left of this month what are they shipping? blank disks you copy the client onto once it is released?

so yes, refunds are called for and handled directly by SV without any hassles

do i want the game that was promised - yes

do i want the game to be release ready when it is released in december - yes

are either of those things going to happened?  the first hopefully, eventually

the second, i don't think so

do i think the beta was handled VERY badly - yup

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by javifugitivo

- Digital download on future release: 50€

- Digital download and three-six months of beta without month fees: 50€

What are you paying? ;-)

 

You are paying money to TEST a product.

 

This game, before the delay, was supposed to launch in Q1 2009. Then after the delay they claimed that it would be ready for Summer. Now they delayed it until winter. Combat does not function beyond 5 people fighting, arrow flights aren't even functioning properly. This is not a beta, this is barely an alpha. There is no guarantee the game will even function in six months. The very fact that they are allowing you to legit, flat out, BUY beta, means they're struggling for funds to keep this project alive.

 

A company that sells merchandise based on pre rendered trailers, and sells beta...selling a beta... you'd have to be stupid to buy into a gimmick that obvious. You can want a game to be successful all you want, but that doesn't make it right for a company to charge money for you to test their game.  

Bro,  stop your trolling and ancillary BS.  Mortal Online has never been delayed..!

Secondly, There are no pre-orders.. you must buy the game, so StarVaults knows who their customers are, how many servers upon release and exactly how many Box-sets, etc..   they need have to have on order, when the game is released. Additionally, Beta access was a perk for fronting the cash upfront for having faith and BUYING the game.

Originally posted by Anvil_Theory

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by javifugitivo

- Digital download on future release: 50€

- Digital download and three-six months of beta without month fees: 50€

What are you paying? ;-)

 

You are paying money to TEST a product.

 

This game, before the delay, was supposed to launch in Q1 2009. Then after the delay they claimed that it would be ready for Summer. Now they delayed it until winter. Combat does not function beyond 5 people fighting, arrow flights aren't even functioning properly. This is not a beta, this is barely an alpha. There is no guarantee the game will even function in six months. The very fact that they are allowing you to legit, flat out, BUY beta, means they're struggling for funds to keep this project alive.

 

A company that sells merchandise based on pre rendered trailers, and sells beta...selling a beta... you'd have to be stupid to buy into a gimmick that obvious. You can want a game to be successful all you want, but that doesn't make it right for a company to charge money for you to test their game.  

 

 

Bro,  stop your trolling and ancillary BS.  Mortal Online has never been delayed..!

Secondly, There are no pre-orders.. you must buy the game, so StarVaults knows who their customers are, how many servers upon release and exactly how many Box-sets, etc..   they need have to have on order, when the game is released. Additionally, Beta access was a perk for fronting the cash upfront for having faith and BUYING the game.

 

Just to let ya know, MO has been delayed, and now YOU were corrected.... Don't preach when you can't follow your own preachings.

Only saw the post on the front page. I don't know much about Mortal Online, but games look «90% finished» for the larger part of development. Even if everything is «there», doesn't mean it's exactly working or fun to play and eight other things. Again, I haven't played the game and only seen some footage — all I say, it's not that easy to say how far it really is, even if you play it. If the beta does not feel almost like a final game, you probably face a year and more of additional development time.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Abloec

 

Its as simple as this, if I was offered the ability to pre-order just the game out of 10000 copies I would pre-order it because there is an actual limitation. If I was offered the ability to buy the beta I would not. So in turn I paid for the final copy of the game I did not pay for beta, and anyone who paid the 75 bucks or whatever it was for them just for the beta are retards simple as that and they have shown that by wanting charge-backs because beta wasn't what they expected but were told how beta would be even before they pre-ordered.

 

I am sorry but you have apparently confused pre-order with pre-purchase (a much less common practice).

Pre-Order means you order a game before it is released and then when it is released they charge you the money and then send it. A Pre-Order can be withdrawn at any time before the release.

Pre-Purchase means that you actually buy something that is not released yet and they charge you right away and then later send you the game. A refund for pre-purchase is like a refund for any other purchase and is thus harder than withdrawing a pre-order. Judging from how hard it is to get a refund for your MO "pre-order" I would definetely say that it is a pre-purchase and nothing else.

So before calling other people retards then keep in mind that it is you who have mixed up two different concepts. Withdrawing a pre-order is usually very easy so those "retards" have like you, confused the Mortal Online pre-purchase with a pre-order.

Furthermore you do not get the "privileage" or "bonus" to test a software. Software Testing is WORK and people are payed for that but there are also those that volonteur to perform that work but in no way are companies doing you a favour by "allowing" you to test their product. It is you who are doing them a favour by not charging for doing something that people are paid to do.

Ok your under the assumption that for a Pre-order you don't have to pay anything from your way of thinking. Pre-Order or Pre-Purchase to me its the same regardless of if I pay the full price or just give my name and number. No where in any definition I can find does it actually say you can only pay so much for it to be a pre-order. Your playing a game with words. If you order a pizza you pay full price. Notice I said order not purchase.

Ok please even Mortal Online called it pre-orders. The main reason its difficult to get a refund is because of the fact that SV said you will not get a refund if you order the game. Besides that from the amount of people getting refunds it doesn't really look all that difficult, all they have to do is call their CC company and Charge-back the order.

This is your opinion, some people feel privileged to be a part of beta testing the game. If you consider it work oh well don't order it or don't play it. Like I said I placed an order for the game because I wanted the game, I did not place an order for the game for the beta.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by mrw0lf

Firstly, how many times is it possible to have the same thread with a different title, the contents of each one being nothing but flame and reflame.

Secondly, SV put forward an offer, to pre-order/purchase their game. At which point everyone gets to make their decision to take them up on it or not. (I would like to point out at this is nothing really new in regards to indy devs making games. I have donated to a number of games in development and will most likely if I feel the project has merit, do so again in the future). Instead of asking for donations SV offered a prepurchase scheme, and those that took up the offer got to beta the game, which to me seems like a massive plus, those beta'ing the game have an investment in it and will give more constructive feedback than people just looking for a bit of free play.

Purely from a personal perspective, I want to play a new mmo that offers the features being touted by MO, I know there is not a chance in hell any large dev is going to make that game in my lifetime (not when they can make another wow and cash in) so indy is all I have. Is it preferential? No, but instead of sitting on these boards continuously moaning, whinning, bitching and crying about the 'good ol days' I am more than happy to put my money where my mouth is and put some cash up for any dev willing to make that game,.... then come to these boards maon whine and bitch anyway!

You can do whatever you want with your money, throw it in a lake for all I care, but the fact is that Starvault sold non existing copies of the game (pre-purchases) and used the privileage to beta test their game as a bait. Hence at this moment what you are actually paying for is to beta test their game since you have not received any copy of the game yet. So depending on how you twist it you can say that you (pre)purchased the game and got beta as a bonus but you can just as much say that you paid to pre-purchase the game AND beta test it.

Add do this that it is very hard to cancel your pre-purchase (something that was NOT clear when doing the so called pre orders since pre orders are almost always very easy to cancel) then it is natural that most "normal" customers are upset. I for one pre-ordered the game and thought that if the game did not release when they, at that time, estimated it would (Q3 -09) then I would just cancel my pre-order. But since apparently this is a pre-purchase such a cancelation does not seem to be possible so theoretically they could hang on to my money indefinetely, and delaying the release for years (like Darkfall) without shipping anything to me.

And again most "normal" customers would be upset if such a thing happened.

You seriously need to stop bitching Yamota, just because your pissed that you bought the game and got into beta and saw it wasn't up to snuff of what you expected in a beta you keep posting this argument over and over again.

you know... they are suppose to PAY YOU to play their beta...

beta testing is a full time job and there are professional beta game testers (people that *thinks* in a unique way when playing a game) who gets paid to work very hard at finding issues and bugs and possible exploits in a game...

when a company decides to use people who are willing to work for free to beta test a game (AKA people that have waaayyy tooo much time on their hands and bored out their a**)... YOU JUST KNOW THE GAME WILL SUK...

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

you know... they are suppose to PAY YOU to play their beta...

 

beta testing is a full time job and there are professional beta game testers (people that *thinks* in a unique way when playing a game) who gets paid to work very hard at finding issues and bugs and possible exploits in a game...

 

when a company decides to use people who are willing to work for free to beta test a game (AKA people that have waaayyy tooo much time on their hands and bored out their a**)... YOU JUST KNOW THE GAME WILL SUK...

This is the truth, generally speaking, closed beta testers are only required to test the "massive" components of the MMO, a lot of the smaller stuff is done by game testers on site.

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

you know... they are suppose to PAY YOU to play their beta...

 

beta testing is a full time job and there are professional beta game testers (people that *thinks* in a unique way when playing a game) who gets paid to work very hard at finding issues and bugs and possible exploits in a game...

 

when a company decides to use people who are willing to work for free to beta test a game (AKA people that have waaayyy tooo much time on their hands and bored out their a**)... YOU JUST KNOW THE GAME WILL SUK...

Id like you to elaborate on your understanding that the game will suck when they have people they aren't paying beta testing the game.

What I'm about to say is just silly, but...

The company that is making Mortal Online is swedish as far as I know, and swedish people sucks ;D *giggles*

Originally posted by Abloec

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

you know... they are suppose to PAY YOU to play their beta...

 

beta testing is a full time job and there are professional beta game testers (people that *thinks* in a unique way when playing a game) who gets paid to work very hard at finding issues and bugs and possible exploits in a game...

 

when a company decides to use people who are willing to work for free to beta test a game (AKA people that have waaayyy tooo much time on their hands and bored out their a**)... YOU JUST KNOW THE GAME WILL SUK...

 

Id like you to elaborate on your understanding that the game will suck when they have people they aren't paying beta testing the game.

i won't have to if you can answer this question for yourself...

do YOU think that game testing is just simply "playing the game"?

Originally posted by mrroboto40

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

you know... they are suppose to PAY YOU to play their beta...

 

beta testing is a full time job and there are professional beta game testers (people that *thinks* in a unique way when playing a game) who gets paid to work very hard at finding issues and bugs and possible exploits in a game...

 

when a company decides to use people who are willing to work for free to beta test a game (AKA people that have waaayyy tooo much time on their hands and bored out their a**)... YOU JUST KNOW THE GAME WILL SUK...

 

This is the truth, generally speaking, closed beta testers are only required to test the "massive" components of the MMO, a lot of the smaller stuff is done by game testers on site.

I think its a toss in the air what would be more effective.   If a company takes the time to implement a decent form of bug documenting and has a team working on sorting that documentation a " massive " beta from the start would work well.  I don't believe star vault did such a thing, since the last I heard their bug reporting software does not work well.  

My guess would be that they only pull bug reports from a small portion of beta testers ( a group they have chosen ), and those beta testers probably pull other members into the group if they find someone with .02 worth of competence.  I also think they have a bit different situation with a 4 month " beta " on their agenda that could very easily be extended if enough preorders are sold.    

Do I consider their actions ethical hell no, but it may well prove ok for players if they put off a release with the money they raise.

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by mrroboto40

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

you know... they are suppose to PAY YOU to play their beta...

 

beta testing is a full time job and there are professional beta game testers (people that *thinks* in a unique way when playing a game) who gets paid to work very hard at finding issues and bugs and possible exploits in a game...

 

when a company decides to use people who are willing to work for free to beta test a game (AKA people that have waaayyy tooo much time on their hands and bored out their a**)... YOU JUST KNOW THE GAME WILL SUK...

 

This is the truth, generally speaking, closed beta testers are only required to test the "massive" components of the MMO, a lot of the smaller stuff is done by game testers on site.

 

I think its a toss in the air what would be more effective.   If a company takes the time to implement a decent form of bug documenting and has a team working on sorting that documentation a " massive " beta from the start would work well.  I don't believe star vault did such a thing, since the last I heard their bug reporting software does not work well.  

My guess would be that they only pull bug reports from a small portion of beta testers ( a group they have chosen ), and those beta testers probably pull other members into the group if they find someone with .02 worth of competence.  I also think they have a bit different situation with a 4 month " beta " on their agenda that could very easily be extended if enough preorders are sold.    

Do I consider their actions ethical hell no, but it may well prove ok for players if they put off a release with the money they raise.

well..... ACTUALLY...... both type of testers are needed... each group contributes something the other group cannot... the masses beta tester are really just there to see what kind of stupid things they'll do... as anyone with experience will know... a lot of people do not intend to play a game the way that it is designed to be played by the developers...

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by mrroboto40

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

you know... they are suppose to PAY YOU to play their beta...

 

beta testing is a full time job and there are professional beta game testers (people that *thinks* in a unique way when playing a game) who gets paid to work very hard at finding issues and bugs and possible exploits in a game...

 

when a company decides to use people who are willing to work for free to beta test a game (AKA people that have waaayyy tooo much time on their hands and bored out their a**)... YOU JUST KNOW THE GAME WILL SUK...

 

This is the truth, generally speaking, closed beta testers are only required to test the "massive" components of the MMO, a lot of the smaller stuff is done by game testers on site.

 

I think its a toss in the air what would be more effective.   If a company takes the time to implement a decent form of bug documenting and has a team working on sorting that documentation a " massive " beta from the start would work well.  I don't believe star vault did such a thing, since the last I heard their bug reporting software does not work well.  

My guess would be that they only pull bug reports from a small portion of beta testers ( a group they have chosen ), and those beta testers probably pull other members into the group if they find someone with .02 worth of competence.  I also think they have a bit different situation with a 4 month " beta " on their agenda that could very easily be extended if enough preorders are sold.    

Do I consider their actions ethical hell no, but it may well prove ok for players if they put off a release with the money they raise.

Well it's not "their" beta software, it's Mantis, which i have seen used in other betas.  Plus now they have a bug report in their Beta forums so it's much better now.  Beta is extended, it's going to have to be if they wanna release the game in a halfway decent state.  They are doing a good job though,  new patch looks good and for a small company they are doing a great job imo.  They just need to implement 2 or 3 more somewhat major elements and i think it could be ready to go.  Can't really say much about what or anything cause i'll break the NDA but i think it's def. gonna launch and it won't be money wasted for those who preordered.

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

Originally posted by Abloec

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

you know... they are suppose to PAY YOU to play their beta...

 

beta testing is a full time job and there are professional beta game testers (people that *thinks* in a unique way when playing a game) who gets paid to work very hard at finding issues and bugs and possible exploits in a game...

 

when a company decides to use people who are willing to work for free to beta test a game (AKA people that have waaayyy tooo much time on their hands and bored out their a**)... YOU JUST KNOW THE GAME WILL SUK...

 

Id like you to elaborate on your understanding that the game will suck when they have people they aren't paying beta testing the game.

 

i won't have to if you can answer this question for yourself...

 

do YOU think that game testing is just simply "playing the game"?

lol, have you not noticed all the people getting refunds because the beta is not designed around playing the game atm. If they really didn't have devoted testers they wouldn't be putting out patches almost every week to every 2 weeks.

wow you completely missed the point...   forget it just carry on...

I left this boat when I was part of their community sense April 10th, 2008 (opening day of the forums) and they did not even give me a wink of an idea they cared for their community who has been there a while.

Now I am glad I did...

Well Shi....

I have no idea what to do for a game at this point.  I was hoping some headway would be made into Mortal, because their *proposed* feature list is nothing short of a pure, player driven sandbox.  It's sounding more and more like they are going to tank before the game gets finished, or they will rush it to release and it will tank soon after.

I was kind of hoping I would get into Fallen Earth, but I found that since there is nothing to make the world (The Desert Southwest, Earth) interesting enough to drive exploration, I quickly became bored and already stopped playing it.

Now what?  Another year of "Maybe Next Year"!

It seems like I am always waiting for next year because so many of these games are complete garbage.  Honestly, you would have to be a serious moron to invest your money in an MMO company these days.  Either that or so rich you don't mind losing a few million dollars.

Nothing but good things here.

The community is pretty good and i've appreciated the responses the Devs give us.

There seems to be such a mix of responses here... that's a good thing.

If you are on the fence, or wondering what the truth is... just wait. Go play something else for a bit and come back to MO later.

Most negative responses are based on the individuals personal feelings and beliefs about how a beta and company should work. The view and experience they got goes against what they believe to be right, so they react negatively. A few are also individuals who planned to get their money back after trying beta for a week or so... i'm quite happy those individuals are having a difficult time acquiring a refund.

Regardless... patches keep coming out, the torrent is still very active and alive, and the SV forums always seem to have a healthy number of users...

So... something good must exist... even if it exists behind the beta gate.

Edit:

Beta may still be restricted to talk about, but the download and changelog/patchnotes are publicly available, as is the Twitter Feed. Go take a look.

http://www.mortalonline.com/downloadbeta

http://twitter.com/mortalbeta

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

wow you completely missed the point...   forget it just carry on...

No I didn't, you didn't answer my question and answered me with a question which should not of been asked, do I believe beta is about playing the game, yes and no. To test a game you need to play it but you also have to play it in a different way, like jumping up and down in one spot for like an hour or trying to climb an unclimbable mountain, so on and so forth.

Again you claimed the game would suck since they have their followers testing the game, and to this day I have not seen a post claiming that the followers are the only testers. They may also have professional testers testing their game. I wanted you to elaborate on this because any game nowadays has non-paid people playing beta.

Originally posted by SignusM

Everything I've heard from beta pretty much backs up exactly what the OP is saying.

 

No one in beta is happy. The game is a LONG LONG way off from being functional, and they are seeking money any way they can, even charging for beta (one of the most underhanded things I've ever heard of from an MMO company). We could have seen this coming though, from a company that was selling hats and tshirts when all that was on the website was one pre rendered trailer they were pretending was in game footage. 

 

 

They've pushed the game back like 3 times already whats a few more?

Charging for a beta is what World of Warcraft did when they offered open beta keys through File Planet, of which you had to purchase a membership through (the two partnered, both reaping the rewards of that) in order to obtain the download. 

WoW sat in various development, alpha and beta stages for six years or more and you bet the Collector's Edition was on Pre-order months in advance.

And as far as hats and T-shirts, both WoW and Warhammer sold those months in advance of the games ever being released. None of this is new.

-Ashyn

Edited to add: I'm not defending MO by any means, this is,  by far, the worst game I have ever had the displeasure of logging into (beta stage or otherwise).

Originally posted by Abloec

Originally posted by SignusM

Everything I've heard from beta pretty much backs up exactly what the OP is saying.

 

No one in beta is happy. The game is a LONG LONG way off from being functional, and they are seeking money any way they can, even charging for beta (one of the most underhanded things I've ever heard of from an MMO company). We could have seen this coming though, from a company that was selling hats and tshirts when all that was on the website was one pre rendered trailer they were pretending was in game footage. 

 

 

They've pushed the game back like 3 times already whats a few more?

 

Not even ganna read what the OP said because he is a troll, his past posts have proven that to me. Beta isn't supossed to be a fun thing, its testing simple as that as soon as people realise that hopefully people will stop bitching. Also people are happy in beta, they actually want this game to come to an end product that they would play so they are testing because they want to be a part of creating this game.

 

Well since you are stating what this game needs in terms of time till its functional I can only assume you are one of the people that bought the game and are pissed because you got into an actual beta and not a free preview of the game, and because of that your butthurt.

 

They didn't charge for beta they charged for the game and beta was an additional gift. Only people that think that they are charging for beta are people that only reason they even thought about pre-ordering is because the beta is all you care about otherwise that wouldn't be the case.

 

lol that pre-rendered trailer is in game, you seriously have no idea how games work, theres a big difference between a camera/single person running through a game than 2000-10000 people running through it.

 

 

Well thereis a little lol from me right now ,because you have to understand what you are saying..think REAL hard.

Yep it's a test alright but of what?you have to have a near done game to test,unless you telling me they are testing nothing but blind code?Server testing is usually the last thing devs test,so this HAS to be the game they are testing.

I mean it is pretty obvious that to test game bugs,quest bugs there has to be a game and there has to be quests.To test game mechanics ,those mechanics have to be in place,to test animations and spawns they all have to be working and in place,you don't create a BETA test for no reason to test nothing.

Now of course i realize the purpose of a beta test,the problem is MOST gamers are not there to test,they are there for free game play.If a developer wants my respect they had better start treating it like a proper beta as well,if they expect players to.

There SHOULD be in EVERY beta a questionnaire,forms to fill out,a sort of survey to fill out.If players do not fill it out,they do not get to beta test.There should be no more than a 2 hour maximum game play,then they have to fill out another form of questions and answers.

So right now we have both players and devs treating BETA tests improperly.Devs are using beta's to bribe players into pre buys,money up front and commitments of a guild/clan so they can lock in several players.Players think they are playing a free game,the whole idea of BETA's lately have been a joke.Then we get sites like this one and many others offering beta keys like it is some form of candy of grand prize,it is nothing but a simple beta,nothing to get excited about here.

I don't see what the problem is with charging for a game. Your getting to test beta as a benefit, so you should be lucky to get anything with more content then tetris when playing beta. Remember, your pre-ordering a released game, not paying for beta.