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Originally posted by Precusor
Ummmmm. no. |
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deviliscious
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 11/09/07
"Adjusts ponytails and pulls the lollipop out of my mouth" |
Originally posted by Briansho
I agree. We have web links to Fox News and other stupid news agencies. What does that tell you?
Goofy goober.. it doesn't matter who relays an article, the news about it is the same on all the sites would you feel better reading the same news from pbs? www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec09/clinton_09-21.html Cbs? www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/17/ftn/main5392831.shtml bbc? news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8313423.stm Does it really matter who the messenger is? |
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BaronJuJu
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 2/27/04
"Just because it happens to you doesn''t make it interesting" |
Well, I'm at least glad to see folks are finally concerned about "The Forgotten War". This kind of caring and attention would have been helpful to the US Military about 4+ years ago. Things might have been a heck of alot different now.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike" |
Originally posted by murdera2k6 True but then you get trolls n all that storming in... i'll explain later today when I've got more free time... Please do...we'll all be waiting. :)
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Originally posted by Teala
It's not that the war is unwinnable, it's the fact that the conditions we would consider as "winning" have not been clearly defined. In that respect, I do agree with your statement, "We have no business being there." We probably shouldn't be or should never have been without a clearly defined mission and "endgame" to use an mmo term. Are we there to disrupt the terrorists or are we nation building? At any rate, remember you can hate the war, but don't hate the soldier. A soldier doesn't get paid to think about the politics or question the "why" of something. A soldier is given a mission and is paid to acomplish it. Nothing more...nothing less........ |
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Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
It's not that the war is unwinnable, it's the fact that the conditions we would consider as "winning" have not been clearly defined. In that respect, I do agree with your statement, "We have no business being there." We probably shouldn't be or should never have been without a clearly defined mission and "endgame" to use an mmo term. Are we there to disrupt the terrorists or are we nation building? At any rate, remember you can hate the war, but don't hate the soldier. A soldier doesn't get paid to think about the politics or question the "why" of something. A soldier is given a mission and is paid to acomplish it. Nothing more...nothing less........ I do not hate our soldiers. Some yes. Some are bad, just like in civilian life there are good and bad people. But for the most part most soldiers are their to do their jobs and then go home - hopefully.
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Originally posted by Teala True but then you get trolls n all that storming in... i'll explain later today when I've got more free time... Please do...we'll all be waiting. :) Lol sorry i'm completely swamped with work at the mo, i'll post something later tonight, i promise. "If they can make Penicillin out of mouldy bread, they can sure make something out of you," - Muhammed Ali |
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Originally posted by Teala
1000% agree. The sooner people undertand this the better off we'll be. Nation building is not authorized anywhere in the Constitution. Do you support Liberty, Freedom and wish to Uphold the Constitution? Join the movement - http://CampaignForLiberty.com |
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wanted to also state that I respect and appreciate all of our armed forces and am not a pacifist nor military hater :) Do you support Liberty, Freedom and wish to Uphold the Constitution? Join the movement - http://CampaignForLiberty.com |
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Originally posted by Teala I do not hate our soldiers. Some yes. Some are bad, just like in civilian life there are good and bad people. But for the most part most soldiers are their to do their jobs and then go home - hopefully. I didn't mean to imply that you do or did "hate" soldiers. That last statement was more of a general statement. A lot of people naturally associate war and soldiers being one and the same since soldiers are the face of the war. By questioning policy, you actually support the soldier ensuring that their efforts are for a just cause and that their lives are not needlessly wasted. |
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Originally posted by stevebmbsqd I do not hate our soldiers. Some yes. Some are bad, just like in civilian life there are good and bad people. But for the most part most soldiers are their to do their jobs and then go home - hopefully. I didn't mean to imply that you do or did "hate" soldiers. That last statement was more of a general statement. A lot of people naturally associate war and soldiers being one and the same since soldiers are the face of the war. By questioning policy, you actually support the soldier ensuring that their efforts are for a just cause and that their lives are not needlessly wasted.
I honestly think every poster here that I have read supports the soldiers even if they disagree with the war they are fighting. It is hard to separate the two. Personally I am torn over the whole thing, yet default to supporting BOTH soliers and the war, even if I think there may have been better ways to fight the war vs the Jihadist fanatics. Once we are in I want to win it and get out as quickly as possible. This is why I support Obama in foreign policy just as I supported Bush, even if I have disagreements. I feel politics should generally stop at the shores. |
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Originally posted by Precusor You are a sad, twisted invidual. And I will take any lack of repudiation of these remarks from the righties and pseudolibertarians around here as a sign of tacit support. So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist. |
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Originally posted by smokemonsc
Then why did I see you pouring gasoline on all your GI Joes and taking a zippo to them?
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Originally posted by kobie173 You are a sad, twisted invidual. And I will take any lack of repudiation of these remarks from the righties and pseudolibertarians around here as a sign of tacit support.
I believe I repudiated that one immediately. Oh but since I am neither a righty or a pseudolibertarian I guess you didn't mean me anyway :) I will however repudiate this one further by saying that yeah, that is some sick shit precusor. I hope you don't really mean that. |
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Originally posted by stevebmbsqd It's not that the war is unwinnable, it's the fact that the conditions we would consider as "winning" have not been clearly defined. In that respect, I do agree with your statement, "We have no business being there." We probably shouldn't be or should never have been without a clearly defined mission and "endgame" to use an mmo term. Are we there to disrupt the terrorists or are we nation building? At any rate, remember you can hate the war, but don't hate the soldier. A soldier doesn't get paid to think about the politics or question the "why" of something. A soldier is given a mission and is paid to acomplish it. Nothing more...nothing less........
Precisely. We started the offensive in Afghanistan as one phase of winning the "War on Terror," which is fundamentally stupid, since you can't win a war against a tactic. That's like attempting to win the War on Cheating. And then it eventually transformed into a nation-building exercise, and if there's one thing the U.S. isn't very good at, it's nation-building. So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist. |
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Originally posted by kobie173
Precisely. We started the offensive in Afghanistan as one phase of winning the "War on Terror," which is fundamentally stupid, since you can't win a war against a tactic. That's like attempting to win the War on Cheating. And then it eventually transformed into a nation-building exercise, and if there's one thing the U.S. isn't very good at, it's nation-building.
Or like trying to win a war on drugs or a war on poverty. And yeah, we do suck at nation-building...not that there is anyone who is particularly GOOD at it. |
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Originally posted by xanphia
Source? Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time. If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD |
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Either send enough troops to make sure we control the situation over there, or pull our troops who are currently in danger back. I don't care either, just do something to make sure we protect our soldiers there. In Iraq they needed the troop surge and it helped. If that's what they need for Afghanistan, then get it done and over with. As is right now, they could wait forever to get the voting fraud issues settled. All the meanwhile our troops are in danger.
I personally don't think we should be there, but remember the support to go into Afghanistan was always high. People from both sides, including this president, have openly said they support the war in Afghanistan. So this is Obama's war now, as he has embraced it and said he would do whatever it takes to hunt the 9/11 mastermind down. Anybody who does not like how things are going, you probably have yourself to blame as well for supporting the war in Afghanistan.
Some posters in this thread are pointing fingers about how people didn't criticize Bush, what are you guys smoking? Everybody, including Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly criticized Bush for mishandling of the Iraq war. All the media were against Bush's Iraq war. Why is it so hard for you to criticize Obama for his handling of Afghanistan war right now? Why are you folks so easy going about this situation when we are suffering the worst year in Afghanistan since 2001? Did you know U.S. alone lost 38 soldiers in June, 76 in July, 77 in August, 70 in September, and so far 39 in October?! Does that look like things are going well? This is allllll under President perfect nobel peace prize winning Obama.
My gosh people take off your party sunglasses. The longer Obama waits, the worse things will become. If he's not going to pull troops out of there, he needs to send them the reinforcements they need to secure the place. For you people to make excuses for the president at this point in time is ridiculous. We all have criticized Bush for his mishandling of the war, especially the part about not having a good strategy for after toppling Saddam. It is OK to criticize Obama the superstar. EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR I can't believe I'm playing EQ1 again...and having tons of fun |
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Originally posted by smokemonsc
1000% agree. The sooner people undertand this the better off we'll be. Nation building is not authorized anywhere in the Constitution.
I agree that nation building is sketchy. However, when critiquing whether or not we should be in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and whether or not the war is winnable, it's very important to understand what our actual goals are. We know a majority of Afghanistan doesn't want the Taliban back in power, so should we quell the insurgency and stick around until Afghanistan's government and security is sustainable enough to do it on its own? We're no longer engaged in a "war on terror", i.e. a tactic any of a thousand militant groups can employ. We're merely seeking to end the operational capacity of al Qaeda. So should we continue drone attacks in Pakistan and pressuring their government to engage al-Qaeda infested militants on their side of the border? I believe we can prop Afghanistan's government and security, I believe we can find Osama bin Laden so long as we aren't passive about Pakistan. This "war" is very winnable so long as we fight within our terms, and our terms make sense. That said, I certainly understand the calls to just withdraw. We save the lives of our soldiers and hundreds of billions of dollars. But we don't necessarily leave a region we won't have to visit again and that isn't dangerous to us. I believe now that we have actual achieveable goals, we should achieve them. |
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Sorry im writing this so late, i literally just got free... Firstly, the first thing to note about the pakistani talbian is that they were trained by the army about 10 years ago, they were initially supportive of the government cause (and that of America), so the army knows the taliban very well. I was told a few weeks ago by an army official that they could destroy the taliban any time they wanted but the problem is that they don't want to because it is like killing your own brother. It is pakistani people fighting pakistani people, which is not what anyone wants and it's even worse that not tso long ago they were working side by side. Recently this has begun to change slowly but still the soldiers themselves don't want to fight. Secondly, it's important to note that the public was not against the taliban until recent years and now they have turned against in them in the wake of several bombings, but before this they did not like the ruling government (military dictatorship who was a sellout in the eyes of the pakistani people) and so they sided with Taliban. But like I said this has changed and the people are now supporting the government BUT again it's important to note thtat the curent governments popularity has dropped so heavily that unless the party changes it's leader (Asif ZardarI) they are likely to be finished and probably never recover. this decline in popularity is mainly attributed by fake promises by the president and the fact that the president has sold pakistan out to america for money. The new american army compound being built in Islamabad (the capital) has caused widespread controversy, no one in pakistan is for it but the president was paid enough and so he let it through. Why is this important? Because the government needs the people on side and the people are turning against them, even worse the Army is turning against the government especially since the Kerry-Lugar Bill was introduced. This bill was basically introduced by Senator Kerry, it's provisions in shell are; we'll provide pakistan with more money if we gain greater control over the way the war on terror is run, this includes APPOINTING THE HEAD OF THE PAKISTANI ARMY. This is the most important part, this part has caused a split to occur between the state and the army, if this bill is passed i would not be suprised if there was a military coup after that. The Army is already on breaking point with continuing attacks from the Taliban but what has enraged them the most is the american drone attacks, had the army had it's way it would waded into afghanistan and started tof ire on american troops, that is the level of hatred they are causing because so many innocent pakistanis are being killed. But what is going for America is the fact that the Taliban is becoming less and less popular day by day as attacks continue but they were often seen as the force which was fighting off the EVIL america, which is true because America was seen as evil due to the drone attacks it continued and might add WAS ADVOCATED BY OBAMA! So despite Obama's Islamic "connections" he's not the most popular guy in pakistan, furthermore he's generally seen as a YES man in most of the muslim world, all talk and no action. On a more general point, people often worry about nuclear weapons falling into the hands fo terrorists, this is never going to happen! a) the terrorsits are no where near strong enough and b) they would be stopped by the army, the army would simply enforce marshal law and they be completely destroyed. Thirdly, fighting the Taliban is not as easy as you might think, this is not an organised army with army gear, they look pakistani, act pakistani and they ARE pakistani. Now tell me in a busy market street full of asians in similar clothing how do you tell whose the terrorist? They all look alike, so when you see on the news army compound attacked or whatever don;t blame the lack of security, becuase security is there but it is just impossible to figure out who is the terrorist and who is the civilian. I often liken the taliban to the Vietcong because it is a close likeness but i would say these guys are more deadly, because they the drive and more importantly they have the cash. They sell drugs through pakistan which is often exported to western countries around the world through some way or another. You must also note about the current offensive is that those areas are not easy to spot the enemey from, the previous offensive in the SWAT Valley was much easier because the SWAT Valley is simply one massive valley and you know the enemy has to be somewhere inside, (by the way SWAT is a beautiful place, if the war is over and it is safe to go, I would strongly recommend people to go, absolutely amazing, i went there before all this started with the family) but the offensive in Waziristan is nowhere near as simple, it is nigh on impossible tospot the enemy from a plne or a helicopter because they are so well hidden and they can shoot you down without you even knowing it...Not pretty my friends.... I just want to add, I do not like the Taliban, in fact i hate them because they hate me, if I was to go to them they would kill me because I 'deviate' from religion, I think some of you may know about Sufism, but for those who don't it is a certain sect of Islam which is the more peacful side and away from the more fundamental Taliban, (and if you haven't guessed I'm sufi :) You can fill them in for me Fisher :P) Anyway sorry for any mistakes, i'm typing this at 01:53 am GMT, I can't be bothered to spell check...and sorry again for posting this so late. thanks. There is some more stuff i'll add later but this will do for now :) Edit: Sorry I forgot to add, The full provisions of the Kerry-Lugar Bill. "If they can make Penicillin out of mouldy bread, they can sure make something out of you," - Muhammed Ali |
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Originally posted by murdera2k6
This is very true (so is pretty much the rest of your post, at least based on what I have seen and read). People seem to think that Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is just sitting in a field behind a rusty chain-link fence, guarded by a goat, just waiting for Al-Qaeda or the Taliban to swoop in, grab them and nuke Tel Aviv, London and Las Vegas. This is most definitely not the case -- by all accounts I've read, security around Pakistan's nuclear weapons is tighter than a dolphin's asshole. So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist. |
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That is some great information, Murdera! Thank you. |
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Originally posted by zzvicezz
The left in this nation since 9/11 has done nothing but try to undermine our troops and cause the USA to fail. Millions are alive today because they failed. USA is a beacon of hope to millions because they failed. Our enemies are being destroyed because they failed.
Thank God they failed and may God assure they fail forever.
While I have to say that your outburst is quite hilarious, it's also quite incorrect. The USA is a beacon to hope? I'm going to assume you're refering to ignorant american patriots because the outside world certainly doesn't see the US as a beacon of hope,rather a country that invades other countries and kills its population for no good reason, You remember that man that threw his shoe to President Bush? That man is now considered to be a hero not just in iraq, but in other middle eastern countries as well. The US won Iraq? is this a joke? Iraq is a freaking mess. The US has killed more Iraq citizens than Sadam Hoessein would have and Al Qaeda is still alive and so is Osama Bin Laden. |
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Originally posted by zzvicezz
Not only are you an asshole, but you're a lunatic and an idiot. What the fuck is wrong with you people? Outside of being factually incorrect, you seem to have this idea that your fellow Americans are playing for a different team simply because they disagree with YOUR way of doing things. That the simple act of having a different opinion than you means that they HATE AMERICA and they WANT TO SEE AMERICA FAIL.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist. |
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This is why I think our politics should end with our shores, Kobie. This is the only thing I'll stand with Obama on (well, that and weed of course), and the only time Bush got my support as well. Even if I disagree with the policy, once we commit, I commit as well. |
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