I often seen people claim that a developer is "greedy".

What defines greed in the MMORPG business?

How much money should a MMORPG developer be allowed to make, before he's greedy?

1% profit? 10% profit? 100%? Or should a developer try to run his business like any other business, whether it's the movies, clothing, electronics, restaurants, and make as much profit as possible?

If you go to a restaurant, they are charging you as much as possible to make as much money as they can.

They can lower the price of the menu, and will make less profit per dish, but will sell more dishes. They can raise the price of the menu, and will sell less dishes, but make more on each one.

Do you think restaurants try to set the price to make the most money possible, or they try to set the prices so they aren't "greedy"?

How is an MMORPG different from a restaurant? If they raise the subscription fee, they get more money per player, but less players. Lower the fee, more players but less profit per player. Add a subscription fee AND an item shop, they will gain some customers that like item shops, lose some customers that hate item shops. They would have to decide which one makes them more money.

Or is there some set amount of money you think a developer can make before they become "greedy"? Do you think that there are MMORPG companies out there that are deliberately TRYING NOT to make more money so they aren't greedy?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Do you think that there are MMORPG companies out there that are deliberately TRYING NOT to make more money so they aren't greedy?

Absolutely not.

We, as customers, have no way of knowing how much profit the companies are making. Not for sure, or even close.

Even though I hate RMTs, I oppose them primarily due to the unfairness, not any apparent greed.

For me greedy developer is developer which does not want to create something new, which only create game with subscriptions in mind, not game quality itself. Developer which will sacrifice his first idea of game or change it only to attract more people in it.

It is like restaurant going fast food.

Holy cow, Ihmo, you are a thead generator, lol.  I agree that "greedy" is misused in this instance and I see it a lot also.  But when it is used to describe mmorpg companies, it is almost always in regards to the posters perception that the mmorpg dev has made the game too easy in an effort to appeal to the casual gamer and gain more subs.  If it works, it's just a good business decision.  To the hardcore gamer that enjoyed the mmorpg just as it was, it's that old "greedy mmorpg company" ruining their life again.

Honestly I think thinking of things in terms or greedy or not is looking at things in a simplistic way, because obviously all companies want to make a profit but putting a limit on what is greedy and what is not seems like an arbitary judgement, basically like judging the company good or bad based on an ammount that you consider fair at the time.

  I don't care how much profit a game company makes as long as I like the product and find the price fair, and if they make a lot of profit off of it I don't judge them negatively at all.

Originally posted by DaX.9

For me greedy developer is developer which does not want to create something new, which only create game with subscriptions in mind, not game quality itself. Developer which will sacrifice his first idea of game or change it only to attract more people in it.

It is like restaurant going fast food.

So Le Snooty Restaurante is not greedy because they are serving truffles in licorice sauce which is something new, even though they are making 1,000% profit, but McDonald's is greedy if they make 10% profit because they are serving the same old thing, hamburgers?

Or Le Snooty finds out nobody likes truffles in licorice sauce, so they ad hamburgers to the menu, and that would make them greedy?

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Do you think that there are MMORPG companies out there that are deliberately TRYING NOT to make more money so they aren't greedy?

Absolutely not.

We, as customers, have no way of knowing how much profit the companies are making. Not for sure, or even close.

Even though I hate RMTs, I oppose them primarily due to the unfairness, not any apparent greed.

I have to agree with you on the RMTs. I do not play free to play games with them because then only those that spend large amounts of money seem to do the best. So I just stick to P2P games where everyone is on the same page basically, and only time investment and skill make the difference.

The thing that upsets me more and more now are those that are doing P2P and adding things like item malls. Even if the items do not impact the gameplay experience are are cosmetic or fluff, I still think they should be available through gameplay. We all pay enough with subs to keep them emplyed and servers running, and with that extra content they create shouldn't be at an additional cost. We have paid for it already. That is greed.

More greed to me is things like in world of warcraft and the charging for every character change options. They charge for server transfers, apearance chages, name changes, and faction changes. I agree some of these should require charges to keep it from happening all too often, or maybe just make them only able to be done once every few months. These things just seem like more greed to me from a developer that makes so much money already.

Originally posted by CactusmanX

Honestly I think thinking of things in terms or greedy or not is looking at things in a simplistic way, because obviously all companies want to make a profit but putting a limit on what is greedy and what is not seems like an arbitary judgement, basically like judging the company good or bad based on an ammount that you consider fair at the time.

  I don't care how much profit a game company makes as long as I like the product and find the price fair, and if they make a lot of profit off of it I don't judge them negatively at all.

I fully agree. I could care less how much a company is making in fact, they deserve to be filthy rich if they make a great product. The main issue I have is the lack of options at a competitive price. Make a game worth the price and I'll buy it, simple. I would play more paid mmos if I didn't have to dish out a monthly fee for all of them. A game doesn't have to be F2P just affordable to play. What if you were charged only for the amount of time you played. Say you buy 50 hours of game time and only pay again when you use 50 hours up. Say 50 hours is only $5. I wouldn't feel in a rush to play a game 100 hours a month just to get my $14.95 worth. I could pay $5 for any paid game when ever I wanted to play a little bit at a time thus getting a feel for all mmos I like over time.

I know some of you might find this shocking, but to me, a "greedy" developer is Blizzard.  That's right.  I said it.  The company I love and makers of WoW (what I consider the best MMORPG ever), and I think they are extremely greedy.  They have more concurrent subscribers than everyone else combined and they keep coming up with out of game gimmicks to drive their revenue for very little effort on their part.   Server transfer, race changing, faction switching, etc all for higher and higher $$$.  It's a damn shame.  Matter of fact, what drove me to cancel my WoW subscription and I won't look back is the faction switching for a fee.  I think that is just plain wrong on about every level, especially on PvP servers.

"What is a "greedy" developer?", that's easy, its the creation of jaded/uninformed/lacking perspective/sensationalist forum users.

Originally posted by BloodDuality

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Do you think that there are MMORPG companies out there that are deliberately TRYING NOT to make more money so they aren't greedy?

Absolutely not.

We, as customers, have no way of knowing how much profit the companies are making. Not for sure, or even close.

Even though I hate RMTs, I oppose them primarily due to the unfairness, not any apparent greed.

 

I have to agree with you on the RMTs. I do not play free to play games with them because then only those that spend large amounts of money seem to do the best. So I just stick to P2P games where everyone is on the same page basically, and only time investment and skill make the difference.

The thing that upsets me more and more now are those that are doing P2P and adding things like item malls. Even if the items do not impact the gameplay experience are are cosmetic or fluff, I still think they should be available through gameplay. We all pay enough with subs to keep them emplyed and servers running, and with that extra content they create shouldn't be at an additional cost. We have paid for it already. That is greed.

More greed to me is things like in world of warcraft and the charging for every character change options. They charge for server transfers, apearance chages, name changes, and faction changes. I agree some of these should require charges to keep it from happening all too often, or maybe just make them only able to be done once every few months. These things just seem like more greed to me from a developer that makes so much money already.

So developers are allowed to make enough money to keep some people employed and keep the servers running, and after that they can't charge for anything because it would be "greedy"?

Or, you don't want to pay for a server transfer, so they shouldn't charge you for it because that would be 'greedy"? You figure you've already paid for it, but how can that be since others are willing to pay for it.

doesn't that mean it has value you have not paid for?

Blizzard is definitely showing a LOT of greed. A billion dollar game, yet they keep finding new things to charge for. Including account services which should be free (or not offered at all).

I think their deal with bnet acounts is another move in that direction.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

So Le Snooty Restaurante is not greedy because they are serving truffles in licorice sauce which is something new, even though they are making 1,000% profit, but McDonald's is greedy if they make 10% profit because they are serving the same old thing, hamburgers?

Or Le Snooty finds out nobody likes truffles in licorice sauce, so they ad hamburgers to the menu, and that would make them greedy?

Yes, it is like I said: FOR ME. If for you greed is something else fine, do not try to convince me what is greed for me please. This is not matematics, this is just personal oppinion and I do not see point in discussion over personal oppinion.

Yea, i dont think anyone questions a companys right to make a profit, or even to make a killing off a succesful product. But we should bear in mind MMO operators are providing a service to its customers. Ive used the term greedy to refer to companies managing f2ps when they decide to make rule changes in order to benefit new customers at the expense of the established player base. Rather than seeking long term success this companies do in fact inconvenience and alienate their regulars by shamelessly seeking short term profit.

Any company providing a service should be looking for retention of customers over a high turnover. When a company does in fact engage in practices contrary to this principle, it is hurting its own product by pushing away its biggest base of potential sales. If your internet service provider made a pretense of "expanding" to justify bad service you wouldnt stick around that company for long. Same rule applies, people are welcome to make as much money as they want with quality products, but thats not the same as scamming your customers by repeatedly changing the conditions of service.

I think the term greedy does apply to some MMO developers. When a product is misrepresented then customers are being cheated out of receiving what they paid for. A few will complaint, but some companies seem to count on a large percentage simply quietly dropping their subscriptions. This is a dishonest way to raise money for games, and so the term may be rightly used.

Yes, yes the term 'greedy' is often misapplied to developers but the context in which people use the term almost always makes it perfectly clear what they mean.

People have every right to complain if a game is substandard, doesn't include features advertised, has its charging structure changed or whatever. Does it really matter if people don't use exactly the right adjective in their complaint?

Well, what defines greed in the MMO industry is based on personal opinion.  I do think there are several cases I would call a developer greedy:

1.  They actually charge so much for things in their MMO (such as having a really high subscription fee) that it may actually hurt their total profit.  The term "blinded by greed" comes to mind here.

2.  They balance their game around the need to use RMT to be successful or do various things in the game that should have been a free feature to begin with.  I'm not talking specifically about F2P games here because that's how they make their profit.  It's when P2P games use RMT for various things that could have been included as a default feature.  It's a new trend occuring in MMO developers and I definitely consider it "greedy".

3.  When a game is released way too early - usually around the December holiday time - in order to gain profits.  The end result once again usually hurts their total profit, which brings up point 1 again.

4.  When developers use slimy tactics and poor subscription models to lure unsuspecting consumers into purchasing a product.  Examples are "limited lifetime subscription" offers, (and the game servers are brought down before the subscription is up with no partial refunds given) instances where it's difficult to cancel your subscription, instances where you don't get to play the full month you paid for if you cancel your subscription early, being billed multiple times due to poor online transactions and NOT being properly refunded, and paying to play a game early and not getting to actually play it (due to server problems, huge queues, or the game just not being launch ready).

Using your restaurant example:

1.  You open a fast-food restaurant that charges far more than the norm for the same quality food.  While the initial opening may help with profits in the short run, in the long run once more and more costumers realize they can get same quality for better prices elsewhere they go to a different restaurant.

2.  You start charging people to use your silverware, restroom facilities, condiments, etc.

3.  The building your in isn't ready and wouldn't pass inspection.  Though this couldn't happen legally in most countries let's say thereotically it would be okay to fail the inspection and start inviting people into your faulty building (or you could use the example with food and service that wouldn't pass the health inspection).  The building collapses winding up costing you numerous dollars.  If you weren't greedy and put the necessary effort and extra time into making sure that building would properly pass inspection you wouldn't be in this mess.

4.  You offer a buffet, but force customers out after 30 minutes or so of eating the buffet or maybe the waiter accidentally charges your bill twice, but won't fix the problem, or you can pay in advance to reserve a spot to eat the food at the restaurant, but it turns out too many spots were reserved and you'll have to wait for the restaurant to officallly open.  Sorry, no refunds.

What we think of as greed in MMO’s is driven by executives not developers. Sometimes it can be blurred as to who is who, but mostly the definition is clear cut.

My definition of greed is so called F2P which result in players posting on here that they have drained them of cash.

My new definition of greed may be subscription games who are making a profit but then bring in a hybrid sub/RMT revenue model to rake in more £$’s.

First you have to make extremely good games that people like to play.

Then you can think about subscriptions and or paid services .

Mostly it is the other way around.

OK guys "let's invent a game where we can make huge amounts of money with".

Blizzard stumbled (by accident) upon a gold mine. Ever since, everyone thinks HOW to make money instead of a game.

That's the problem. Some even have fixed formulas: (Xp per monster * kills) - downtime = total Exp per lvl * 1000.

Money check worth of 4 months playing.

Ultimately :  People play level checks instead of adventuring. I can't understand people don't see through this mechanism.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Blizzard stumbled (by accident) upon a gold mine. Ever since, everyone thinks HOW to make money instead of a game.

This is 100% true!

Originally posted by DaX.9

For me greedy developer is developer which does not want to create something new, which only create game with subscriptions in mind, not game quality itself. Developer which will sacrifice his first idea of game or change it only to attract more people in it.

It is like restaurant going fast food.

I think thats correct. This is a different thought but same concept in terms of trying something NEW.

For example Nintendo and trying something new with a Pokemon MMO (i know its the only idea i got atm) - while they continue to milk the DS versions by remaking the old games (like gold and silver into heart and soul what just got released).

To me that is greedy because they are milking the concept of their game, enough for me (and maybe others) to stop playing because its getting to be the same. But of course the games are still hot hot hot in asia and in alot of other countries even though they are remade.

Them trying something new (of course always risky) - and make a MMO would more than likely deny them a few more DS releases but having monthly subscriptions what "I THINK" would be a very popular game, once again, hard to say if it would make more money or not from there current release of pokemon for DS and their first WII game in dev (pokepark lol). I wont go into detail on how and so forth because that will be off topic.

They are a business, and businesses are there to make money. So if you call that greed then yes, every MMO developer out there is greedy. Some are more greedy than others (read: Successful)

What I dislike, and may be seen as greedy by others, are developers who release a game/idea and then 'milk' it until everyone is totally and utterley pissed off and bored with the game/idea. EverQuest was the first, that was a really great game. Then came the expansions, one after the other, a continuous spew of crap that watered down and destroyed the original game (for me anyway). In a way it's the same in other areas, like film and media, Friday 13th part 3000 anyone? World of Warcraft is the same, great game (regardless of all the whining about it). Now being 'milked' for all it's worth.

Now, what I call a greedy MMO developer is one that takes a great idea, develops a really bad game, then builds up a huge amount of hype about the game with false advertising, releases the game in a state that is only just playable and get their customers to pay for the Beta. Quite a few jump to mind straight away.

Originally posted by Magnum2103

Well, what defines greed in the MMO industry is based on personal opinion.  I do think there are several cases I would call a developer greedy:

1.  They actually charge so much for things in their MMO (such as having a really high subscription fee) that it may actually hurt their total profit.  The term "blinded by greed" comes to mind here.

I think this is the only real scenario where the term "greed' would be appropriately applied. Otherwise, as another poster stated ALL MMORPG companines are greedy, becaue they all want to make as much profit as possible.

This is not one mmorpg company in existence that know of that is going, you know, we'd make more money if we did X, but we dont' really want more money. That would just be greedy. Nope, they're not doing X because it will make them less money, not more, and that's the only reason.

Let me give you an example...

Two restaurants serving burgers:

First is charging you 10$ for a good burger - they count you will be satisfied and come again , time and time again.

Second is charging 200$ - they take 20 time more money than above restaurant, and they know (and dont care) you will never come again.

Second restaurant would be considered greedy

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Let me give you an example...

Two restaurants serving burgers:

First is charging you 10$ for a good burger - they count you will be satisfied and come again , time and time again.

Second is charging 200$ - they take 20 time more money than above restaurant, and they know (and dont care) you will never come again.

 

Second restaurant would be considered greedy

 

I think there is a caveat here. The second restaurant would be greedy, only if this practice is going to put them out of business.

If they are in a position where this is a sustained business model because of perhaps a unique location, then they would not be greedy, just charging what the market would bear which is what every business does.

SoE

Their games were P2P and they kept them P2P but introduced cash shops.

That is pure greed driven, once people are addicted they will pay a lot more, it's pure greed.