The idea that grouping takes more effort, than running solo is complete and utter nonsense, content in any well balanced mmo is scaled according to the target audience. As for the risk being greater, that too is laughable, In any group dynamic you cover all needs, healing, dps, tanking, off tanking, CC; solo you go with what you’ve got. Again, it is about scaling the content based on the audience; the idea that a "group" be rewarded greater gear for simply having done "group" content is ludicrous, the subscription rate for both player archetypes is the same. Effort for both solo and group play can carry the same risk and effort but the rewards should never scale based on the numbers participating, this is simply an antiquated idea. Grouping already carries many more benefits not available to pure solo chars.

In the past I have run guilds with numbers in the hundreds and yet equally enjoyed solo and grouping, each has its own challenges and merits, but one play style is not superior to the other in any way, shape, or form. Until subscription models change, with soloers paying less than those taking part in group content, the ultimate rewards, challenge and content should be balanced rewarding each EQUALLY.

If I am a family man buying a hatch back, I do not expect to get more extras with the car than a single person buying it at the same cost. If I want more, I expect to pay more; the numbers participating have shag all to do with it One customers money carries no more value and weight than another’s, this is something the group only advocates cannot get into their thick heads.

Socialising, interaction and friendship are not exclusive to group only gamers, nor should they affect or influence gameplay one iota beyond the benefits that are inherent to structured group interaction.
 

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

If the vast majority of people are still soloing, I would say the compensation for grouping is not adequate in that game.

In EQ and DAoC I would say the vast majority grouped, because the compensation was adequate in those designs.

And that is EXACTLY your problem spelled out right there.  You want such absurd rewards for grouping that NO ONE will solo!  You are trying to bribe others to group, you're not interested in your own fun, you're interested in making everyone else do what you want to do!

The fact is, if you want to group, then you shouldn't require any compensation to group.  It should be something you do regardless of the negative aspects because that's how you have fun.  The fact that you want extra goodies for anyone who groups shows that you're not being honest about your argument.  You don't want compensation because you enjoy grouping you want compensation because you're trying to force the majority of players to do it.

At least TRY to be honest here.

Simply not true. Although much harder, people did solo EQ and DAoC.

Why would the group content  be fun, if you lower the challenge until it's pointless?

Originally posted by spades07

what the solo advocates don't understand is that the original Dungeons N Dragons tabletop game wasn't played solo. That's not to say mmos should have no solo because that's bull, but I get annoyed when people seem to be cynical why people want emphasis on grouping in mmos. It is simply that same desire as playing DnD around a table with a group of friends.

What you don't seem to understand is that MMOs didn't come directly from tabletop RPGs, they came from Internet MUDs and videogame RPGs, both of which were largely solo affairs.

If you're looking for D&D around a table, you're out of luck, that's not what MMOs are or have ever been, or likely will ever be.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Simply not true. Although much harder, people did solo EQ and DAoC.

Why would the group content  be fun, if you lower the challenge until it's pointless?

Very true and *EVERYONE* sees it.  If you're not finding challenge in your group, then you're going after the wrong content.  Attempting content with 6 people that a soloer can easily accomplish, I can see why you're not finding challenge.  Go for something harder.

I can't believe I have to explain this stuff.

Originally posted by Hexcaliber

The idea that grouping takes more effort, than running solo is complete and utter nonsense, content in any well balanced mmo is scaled according to the target audience. As for the risk being greater, that too is laughable, In any group dynamic you cover all needs, healing, dps, tanking, off tanking, CC; solo you go with what you’ve got. Again, it is about scaling the content based on the audience; the idea that a "group" be rewarded greater gear for simply having done "group" content is ludicrous, the subscription rate for both player archetypes is the same. Effort for both solo and group play can carry the same risk and effort but the rewards should never scale based on the numbers participating, this is simply an antiquated idea. Grouping already carries many more benefits not available to pure solo chars.

In the past I have run guilds with numbers in the hundreds and equally enjoyed solo and grouping, each has its own challenges and merits, but one play style is not superior to the other in any way, shape, or form. Until subscription models change, with soloers paying less than those taking part in group content, the ultimate rewards, challenge and content should be balanced rewarding each EQUALLY.

If I am a family man buying a hatch back, I do not expect to get more extras with the car than a single person buying it at the same cost. If I want more, I expect to pay more; the numbers participating have shag all to do with it. One customers money carries no more value and weight than another’s, this is something the group only advocates cannot get into their thick heads.
 

You're willing to pay 14.95 a month for a solo friendly game. I'm not.

I'm willing to pay 14.95 a month for a group friendly game. You are not.

What does the subscription price have to do with the fact that I'm looking for a different game than you are?

I'm not asking for a toyota at the same price you are paying for a different car, let's say a Honda.

I'm asking for a toyota, and don't mind that you want to pay for a Honda. You'll be happy with your car, and I'll be happy with mine.

You can pay 14.95 for a solo friendly game you like, and I'll pay 14.95 for a group friendly game I like.

What's the problem there? Does it somehow bother you if a developer makes a game I like to play and am willing to pay for?

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Simply not true. Although much harder, people did solo EQ and DAoC.

Why would the group content  be fun, if you lower the challenge until it's pointless?

Very true and *EVERYONE* sees it.  If you're not finding challenge in your group, then you're going after the wrong content.  Attempting content with 6 people that a soloer can easily accomplish, I can see why you're not finding challenge.  Go for something harder.

I can't believe I have to explain this stuff.

There is nothing harder in solo friendly games like WoW, since I can solo to the cap quite easily.

compare that to games like EQ nad DaoC which provide much more challenging group content to get to the level cap.

You're not explaining anything, just insisting that I have to like your solo friendly game, or else somehow I'm flawed because I prefer a different game than you do.

Originally posted by greed0104

His complaint about waiting, he actual gave me a solution to that, be rewarded for waiting. But he never went into detail. When he says good group content, I'm not sure where he is aiming. It seems like he wants more features then anything.  

Which, of course, is utterly stupid.  There are people out there who play MMOs at work and have to stop playing to work constantly.  Let's give those people a bonus too!  They can have an "idling bonus!"  After all, we can't overlook people who need to be rewarded for idling!

The whole thing is absurd.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

You're willing to pay 14.95 a month for a solo friendly game. I'm not.

I'm willing to pay 14.95 a month for a group friendly game. You are not.

What does the subscription price have to do with the fact that I'm looking for a different game than you are?

I'm not asking for a toyota at the same price you are paying for a different car, let's say a Honda.

I'm asking for a toyota, and don't mind that you want to pay for a Honda. You'll be happy with your car, and I'll be happy with mine.

You can pay 14.95 for a solo friendly game you like, and I'll pay 14.95 for a group friendly game I like.

What's the problem there? Does it somehow bother you if a developer makes a game I like to play and am willing to pay for?

I am not the one asking for one type of gameplay over the other, don't ever think to tar me with your brush. You are the one bothered with group content and crying about it publicly, don't expect everyone to come here, hold your hand and say there there.

However, perhaps you would like to point me in the direction of an mmo that tells it’s customers, we are group only/ solo only, we only accept subscriptions from one side or the other.

Your usless analogy is akin to buying <anymmo (Honda)> over <anymmo(Toyota)> thats the choice the market offers you, the number of people paying for a single item changes not a single penny. The Honda family A buy, is exactly the same Honda as  single parent b purchases, and student c. Meanwhile, Family d's toyota is eactly the same as single parent E's toyota and so it goes on.

Originally posted by rutaq

    Your first observation is valid.  A good systems would yield rewards based on effort.  Since it requires more effort play as a group the character progession should be greater than solo play whoich requires less effort.

No, that's completely wrong.  A good system rewards success, not effort.  You can try all you want to kill the boss, you don't actually get anything out of it until you actually succeed in doing it.  It doesn't matter if you've got one guy, ten guys or a hundred guys to do it, you're still performing the same action and getting the same rewards.  Effort doesn't mean shit.  Should we give more XP to people who took 2 hours to form a group than to people who only took a half-hour?  That seems to be what you're arguing.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Simply not true. Although much harder, people did solo EQ and DAoC.

Why would the group content  be fun, if you lower the challenge until it's pointless?

Very true and *EVERYONE* sees it.  If you're not finding challenge in your group, then you're going after the wrong content.  Attempting content with 6 people that a soloer can easily accomplish, I can see why you're not finding challenge.  Go for something harder.

I can't believe I have to explain this stuff.

 

There is nothing harder in solo friendly games like WoW, since I can solo to the cap quite easily.

compare that to games like EQ nad DaoC which provide much more challenging group content to get to the level cap.

You're not explaining anything, just insisting that I have to like your solo friendly game, or else somehow I'm flawed because I prefer a different game than you do.

There was nothing harder in EQ either since I could solo to the  cap quite easily with my bard, druid, monk, and necro.  There was challenging group content in EQ and challenging rewards.  There is the same challenging group content in modern games and the same challenging rewards.  There is no difference.
 

Venge Sunsoar

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by rutaq

    Your first observation is valid.  A good systems would yield rewards based on effort.  Since it requires more effort play as a group the character progession should be greater than solo play whoich requires less effort.

No, that's completely wrong.  A good system rewards success, not effort.  You can try all you want to kill the boss, you don't actually get anything out of it until you actually succeed in doing it.  It doesn't matter if you've got one guy, ten guys or a hundred guys to do it, you're still performing the same action and getting the same rewards.  Effort doesn't mean shit.  Should we give more XP to people who took 2 hours to form a group than to people who only took a half-hour?  That seems to be what you're arguing.

MMORPGs don't work the way you are describing.

You kill Mob X all by yourself. You get 10 xp.

I spend a lot of time getting together a group, and we kill Mob X. You're saying we shouldn't get more than 10 xp DIVIDED UP BETEEN US.

And I agree.

But if I spend time getting a group together, we dont' go kill solo Mob X. We go kill group Mob Z. We should get 40 xp each, because we have done something you cannot.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

There is nothing harder in solo friendly games like WoW, since I can solo to the cap quite easily.

compare that to games like EQ nad DaoC which provide much more challenging group content to get to the level cap.

You're not explaining anything, just insisting that I have to like your solo friendly game, or else somehow I'm flawed because I prefer a different game than you do.

Then don't play WoW.  I don't.  I have no interest.  I don't sit around on the forums and whine about it though.  Go find a game you want to play.  You're apparently happy with EQ and DaoC, go play those.  Some have suggested other games.  You've just come up with excuses why you don't want to play those too.

I think you just like to whine.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Simply not true. Although much harder, people did solo EQ and DAoC.

Why would the group content  be fun, if you lower the challenge until it's pointless?

Very true and *EVERYONE* sees it.  If you're not finding challenge in your group, then you're going after the wrong content.  Attempting content with 6 people that a soloer can easily accomplish, I can see why you're not finding challenge.  Go for something harder.

I can't believe I have to explain this stuff.

 

There is nothing harder in solo friendly games like WoW, since I can solo to the cap quite easily.

compare that to games like EQ nad DaoC which provide much more challenging group content to get to the level cap.

You're not explaining anything, just insisting that I have to like your solo friendly game, or else somehow I'm flawed because I prefer a different game than you do.

There was nothing harder in EQ either since I could solo to the  cap quite easily with my bard, druid, monk, and necro.  There was challenging group content in EQ and challenging rewards.  There is the same challenging group content in modern games and the same challenging rewards.  There is no difference.
 

Venge Sunsoar

People will have different gaming experiences.

I found that WoW was not the same as EQ. I doubt many people on these forums would agree with you that these games play just the same as one another with no substantial difference.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

MMORPGs don't work the way you are describing.

You kill Mob X all by yourself. You get 10 xp.

I spend a lot of time getting together a group, and we kill Mob X. You're saying we shouldn't get more than 10 xp DIVIDED UP BETEEN US.

And I agree.

But if I spend time getting a group together, we dont' go kill solo Mob X. We go kill group Mob Z. We should get 40 xp each, because we have done something you cannot.

Actually, I'm saying and have always said that you should get 10XP each.  Not divided up, for each and every person in the group that took part in the fight.  I have no problem with that.  What I have a problem with is saying that each character ought to get 20XP to compensate them for group-related stuff.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Wow what a bias, pompous and arrogant statement.

I never said I can't have any alone time or soloing time. Of course, to know that, that means you would have actually have to have read my posts. Which you soloers probably lack even the patience to do that.

Not patient enough to group, not patient enough to read anyones posts before actually posting and making pre-assumptions.

Well, I don't expect any less from you anyway Sovrath.

 

He didn't name anybody, it's a possibility that some are afraid to be alone. You know, usually somebody that takes offense to this type of thing are usually the ones in question. Just some advice.

Thank you Greed. At least someone understood what I was proffering.

Here's how you fix the entire problem of group content vs solo content in games....

First look at the argument, group only players feel that grouping should be rewarded, many think that soloing shouldn't be rewarding at all. So basically if you simplify it, group only players feel the should be put on a pedestal compared to solo players who pay the same sub fee.

To fix this developers just need to include premium servers that have little if any soloable content and very good group mechanics with very good group rewards. This way anyone who wants a better group experience can upgrade their sub to premium servers for a tad more than what a standard sub would cost then they could access the standard servers, but would have the option to play on the premium servers also.......

see problem solved.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

MMORPGs don't work the way you are describing.

You kill Mob X all by yourself. You get 10 xp.

I spend a lot of time getting together a group, and we kill Mob X. You're saying we shouldn't get more than 10 xp DIVIDED UP BETEEN US.

And I agree.

But if I spend time getting a group together, we dont' go kill solo Mob X. We go kill group Mob Z. We should get 40 xp each, because we have done something you cannot.

Ergo you want imbalanced rewards based simply on the numbers participating in a kill, it doesn't matter if the soloer took an hour to kill his mob, played the game displaying superior skill and timing, your group killed it's in 10 minutes while paying for the same product, of course you should get more.

Games DONT work your way either, content is SCALED in mmo’s, in well balanced games, solo mobs take no more or less effort for the soloer, than group ones do a well balanced group, solo bosses take no more or less effort than group bosses.

Could you be anymore asinine and blinkered?
 

Originally posted by Cochran1

Here's how you fix the entire problem of group content vs solo content in games....

First look at the argument, group only players feel that grouping should be rewarded, many think that soloing shouldn't be rewarding at all. So basically if you simplify it, group only players feel the should be put on a pedestal compared to solo players who pay the same sub fee.

To fix this developers just need to include premium servers that have little if any soloable content and very good group mechanics with very good group rewards. This way anyone who wants a better group experience can upgrade their sub to premium servers for a tad more than what a standard sub would cost then they could access the standard servers, but would have the option to play on the premium servers also.......

see problem solved.

I've got a better idea.

Make it so that there's content that can be done solo and small group. if it is a mission or quest, the rewards can be good. Then make it so that there is also content where grouping is a must. I would even go so far as to say that if it was a dungeon or cave or whatever, that the start of the area could be soloed but the deeper you got the player would find that it became more difficult. Make it so that the xp for group mobs could be divided in such a way as to be somewhat eqivalent if slightly more or less than soloing. I say more or less because getting 6 players to zerg one mob could be quite easy. Gettnig 6 players to take on a mob that offered a challenge with knockdowns, crowd control, silences, etc could be hard.

Make it so the rewards of those quests be somewhat equivalent to the solo quests but a bit different so that one might want to group in order to get those rewards.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

So you're whining about me whining? lol ok.

No, you've got dozens of people pointing out that you keep creating thread after thread after thread saying the same stupid thing and ignoring what everyone else is saying

You want to solve your problem?  Go to a developer and convince them that your grouping-focused game is financially viable.  Prove to them that you've got enough people willing to subscribe to their game to make it worth making.  Sitting around on a forum isn't going to do a damn thing, get out there and actually put up or shut up.

But no, you'll just keep posting the same stupid shit over and over again, acting like nobody understands you when the reality is, you've never given anyone anything to understand.  You're still dodging questions and acting like your ridiculous elitist ways ought to be taken seriously.

Try again.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

If the vast majority of people are still soloing, I would say the compensation for grouping is not adequate in that game.

In EQ and DAoC I would say the vast majority grouped, because the compensation was adequate in those designs.

And that is EXACTLY your problem spelled out right there.  You want such absurd rewards for grouping that NO ONE will solo!  You are trying to bribe others to group, you're not interested in your own fun, you're interested in making everyone else do what you want to do!

The fact is, if you want to group, then you shouldn't require any compensation to group.  It should be something you do regardless of the negative aspects because that's how you have fun.  The fact that you want extra goodies for anyone who groups shows that you're not being honest about your argument.  You don't want compensation because you enjoy grouping you want compensation because you're trying to force the majority of players to do it.

At least TRY to be honest here.

 

Simply not true. Although much harder, people did solo EQ and DAoC.

Why would the group content  be fun, if you lower the challenge until it's pointless?

True, I mostly solo but still enjoyed both EQ and DAoC. I bet 90 % of the MMO-population are both soloing and grouping at times. The devs just need to find a good balance as to how they reward the different playstyles. Besides, there are loads of ways to play solo and still be part of the in-game community. If the OP does not understand that he is the one with problems (which he obviously has with his sick sick sick comments).

I don't even know why I still read and comment on these threads, they are getting a tad boring.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Cochran1

Here's how you fix the entire problem of group content vs solo content in games....

First look at the argument, group only players feel that grouping should be rewarded, many think that soloing shouldn't be rewarding at all. So basically if you simplify it, group only players feel the should be put on a pedestal compared to solo players who pay the same sub fee.

To fix this developers just need to include premium servers that have little if any soloable content and very good group mechanics with very good group rewards. This way anyone who wants a better group experience can upgrade their sub to premium servers for a tad more than what a standard sub would cost then they could access the standard servers, but would have the option to play on the premium servers also.......

see problem solved.

 

I've got a better idea.

Make it so that there's content that can be done solo and small group. if it is a mission or quest, the rewards can be good. Then make it so that there is also content where grouping is a must. I would even go so far as to say that if it was a dungeon or cave or whatever, that the start of the area could be soloed but the deeper you got the player would find that it became more difficult. Make it so that the xp for group mobs could be divided in such a way as to be somewhat eqivalent if slightly more or less than soloing. I say more or less because getting 6 players to zerg one mob could be quite easy. Gettnig 6 players to take on a mob that offered a challenge with knockdowns, crowd control, silences, etc could be hard.

Make it so the rewards of those quests be somewhat equivalent to the solo quests but a bit different so that one might want to group in order to get those rewards.

They already do that in most MMO's these days, and most group centric players aren't happy with it. Thats the whole purpose of threads like this one.
 

My point is if people like the game but want a more rewarding group experience than that of a standard player let them have the option to access such content via premium servers. Of course this kind of impementation would cost money to upkeep so they would have to pay extra to access it.

Even EQ had premium servers at one time with live events and even changing zones. I'm sure there are group centric players that would indeed pay a little extra to access content like that.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by econ24

Originally posted by Kyleran

You were close, had to fix it a bit for you.

Yes, I think that's what he's asking for.  Early DAOC was exactly this way.  You could solo to level cap, some classes quite well, others not so much, but when people grouped up the rewards in terms of loot and experience were much superior for everyone vs any solo experience.  (therefore people regularly grouped up with little prodding)

DAOC today isn't like this, they changed it to suit the desires of the soloers and its original mechanic has been lost to history.

Not sure we'll ever see a game  designed like this again (FFXIV is probably the best hope) but its not unreasonable to ask for a game with this mechanic.  There are those of us who would enjoy it, however we're not great enough in number to really interest a major developer.

WoW is like this, people like to ignore this fact though. Soloing quests rewards crappy greens, and you can't solo instances near your level. Grouping for instances rewards blues, purples, and much more experience from related quests. The mechanic isn't lost to history.

 

I'll agree, but for a couple of reasons its just not the same thing.  I guess you had to be there to appreciate why.

 

Things change people should adapt to the little changes in life.  And mmorpgs changes are very minor in the scheme of life.
 

Originally posted by Cochran1

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Cochran1

Here's how you fix the entire problem of group content vs solo content in games....

First look at the argument, group only players feel that grouping should be rewarded, many think that soloing shouldn't be rewarding at all. So basically if you simplify it, group only players feel the should be put on a pedestal compared to solo players who pay the same sub fee.

To fix this developers just need to include premium servers that have little if any soloable content and very good group mechanics with very good group rewards. This way anyone who wants a better group experience can upgrade their sub to premium servers for a tad more than what a standard sub would cost then they could access the standard servers, but would have the option to play on the premium servers also.......

see problem solved.

 

I've got a better idea.

Make it so that there's content that can be done solo and small group. if it is a mission or quest, the rewards can be good. Then make it so that there is also content where grouping is a must. I would even go so far as to say that if it was a dungeon or cave or whatever, that the start of the area could be soloed but the deeper you got the player would find that it became more difficult. Make it so that the xp for group mobs could be divided in such a way as to be somewhat eqivalent if slightly more or less than soloing. I say more or less because getting 6 players to zerg one mob could be quite easy. Gettnig 6 players to take on a mob that offered a challenge with knockdowns, crowd control, silences, etc could be hard.

Make it so the rewards of those quests be somewhat equivalent to the solo quests but a bit different so that one might want to group in order to get those rewards.

They already do that in most MMO's these days, and most group centric players aren't happy with it. Thats the whole purpose of threads like this one.
 

My point is if people like the game but want a more rewarding group experience than that of a standard player let them have the option to access such content via premium servers. Of course this kind of impementation would cost money to upkeep so they would have to pay extra to access it.

Even EQ had premium servers at one time with live events and even changing zones. I'm sure there are group centric players that would indeed pay a little extra to access content like that.

I don't think they go far enough.

Le'ts take Aion as that is the game I am now playing as my main game.

The 1-10 areas have, for the most part, no group quests or challenges. There is a cave in either side that "could" possibly be construed as requiring a group under certain circumstances.

However, once you leave that area into the next new player area there are places that clearly a group is required. Add a few more of those I think the pro group people might be happy. Especially because the xp is generally very good.

Every area should have 2 or 3 places that are just group centric or lead to group centric content with appropriate challenges and rewards

And quest lines that maintain the group. Because otherwise the problem is that a group will get together for one part of the quest and quickly dissolve as that is the only thing that demanded a group. This has happened to me quite a bit in LOTRO.

If a questline is group centric then it should remain group centric to the end of that quest. The quest line should not be mandatory for players to enjoy the game but it should allow for those who desire to constantly group a chance to group up and to see an evening's play within that group.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Simply not true. Although much harder, people did solo EQ and DAoC.

Why would the group content  be fun, if you lower the challenge until it's pointless?

Very true and *EVERYONE* sees it.  If you're not finding challenge in your group, then you're going after the wrong content.  Attempting content with 6 people that a soloer can easily accomplish, I can see why you're not finding challenge.  Go for something harder.

I can't believe I have to explain this stuff.

 

There is nothing harder in solo friendly games like WoW, since I can solo to the cap quite easily.

compare that to games like EQ nad DaoC which provide much more challenging group content to get to the level cap.

You're not explaining anything, just insisting that I have to like your solo friendly game, or else somehow I'm flawed because I prefer a different game than you do.

There was nothing harder in EQ either since I could solo to the  cap quite easily with my bard, druid, monk, and necro.  There was challenging group content in EQ and challenging rewards.  There is the same challenging group content in modern games and the same challenging rewards.  There is no difference.
 

Venge Sunsoar

 

People will have different gaming experiences.

I found that WoW was not the same as EQ. I doubt many people on these forums would agree with you that these games play just the same as one another with no substantial difference.

Well I guess it's a good thing I didn't say WoW isn't it.  I said modern games, of which WoW is only one.  Although as has been pointed out many many times allready there is an awful lot of similarity between the two.

Modern games - an article was just released a few days ago from this website which showed something like 167 MMO games released since wow.

Venge Sunsoar

The linear design has failed.