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Originally posted by Palebane To a degree, that's true. There is nothing "massively multiplayer" about intelligence, co-operation, and skill. The big money is in slack-minded, selfish, sociopaths. |
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Originally posted by Palebane Yeah and the 5 on the server would probably be all the anti-group extremists from this thread who would roll alts on there just to flame the groupers. It really is entertaining reading the things you guys come up with to bash people who enjoy something other than soloing. Murashu ~ Shuey |
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Originally posted by Murashu Yeah and the 5 on the server would probably be all the anti-group extremists from this thread who would roll alts on there just to flame the groupers. It really is entertaining reading the things you guys come up with to bash people who enjoy something other than soloing.
It's interesting that you should say that, as one of the common views among the people who like to solo is that they are perfectly fine with others being able to group and they have nothing against grouping with their friends and guildmates. They are also perfectly fine with people who group having their own path to gear and xp. Is it that you really don't understand - despite the thousands of replies in the scores of threads (most of which were started by the OP) - that the issue isn't with grouping but with people who are basically saying "I can't/won't find people who will play with me so here's my latest contrivance to either force you to play with me or make your playstyle less enjoyable for you so that you really won't have much fun unless you play with me?"
Do you really not follow that?
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Originally posted by LynxJSA
It's interesting that you should say that, as one of the common views among the people who like to solo is that they are perfectly fine with others being able to group and they have nothing against grouping with their friends and guildmates. They are also perfectly fine with people who group having their own path to gear and xp. Is it that you really don't understand - despite the thousands of replies in the scores of threads (most of which were started by the OP) - that the issue isn't with grouping but with people who are basically saying "I can't/won't find people who will play with me so here's my latest contrivance to either force you to play with me or make your playstyle less enjoyable for you so that you really won't have much fun unless you play with me?"
Do you really not follow that?
When people make comments like "Groupers just don't belong in todays MMORPGs", no I do not follow that.
Murashu ~ Shuey |
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The ultimate solution is don't play the mmorpg if it don't have the content which satisfy you(either solo or group content). Like I don't play FFXI because I'm forced to play with group, and I don't play darkfall because I don't like the death penalty. I'd like every single mmorpg created to centered around my playstyle too, but it just dont' happen.
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Originally posted by laokoko
That is indeed the ultimate solution we as players can choose, we will have to untill some developer comes with a better solution and gets the cash to make it happen. Even then I expect both sides to keep going for eachothers throats though. :) “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule.” |
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Originally posted by madeux
I don't care if you group up. Doesn't make any contribution to the discussion. Why do you think I'm asking for a game to allow me to group, when all games already allow that? I have never asked for a game to allow me to form a group. I have no interest in that at all.
right, you're only interested in games that force other people to group with you. Yes, we get it.
Actually, I've never had any trouble getting groups in games. Why would I need to force anyone to group with me? This is the point you continually harp on. You'll force me to group, dont' make me group, you can't force me, you want people to group with you and you have to force them... But getting together a group is not the issue. The issue is the game play once a group is formed. I had absolutely no problem getting groups together in WoW. It was AFTER the group was formed that I became disappointed with the game, because in the leveling portion of the game the content was not sufficiently challenging. I'm looking for CONTENT that makes a good grouping game. I don't need to "force" anyone to group. Getting in groups is NOT the problem madeux. I think this is why you are missing the entire point of the this thread, and all grouping vs solo discussions.
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Originally posted by Ilvaldyr
No, I am not asking for a server where all mobs are designed for groups. I'm asking for a server where the content is as challenging as the original EQ (which you could solo but it took a long time) or DAoC, which you could solo but it took a long time. These are the games the solo crowd calls "forced grouping". They can't level as fast as groupers, so they whine that they are "forced" to group, because they want to keep up.
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Originally posted by LynxJSA
The problem is not, never has been, finding a group. I quit WoW after getting in group after group after group. The dynamic of gameplay in WoW pre-raid are completely different, IMO, than EQ or DAoC. I was in groups in WoW, but it was pointless nad not fun, as opposed to being in groups in EQ and DAoC which was fun and rewarding. I have never been complaining about being able to find a group. That is not the problem. I am complaining about the content being designed for groups, and IMO, it is not in WoW, LoTRO, and many other games, till you get to end game. I don't like to raid, I like a solid grouping game during the leveling part of the game. EQ provided this, so did DAoC, WoW does not. I am NOT worried about finding groups, I do NOT have a trouble getting in groups, forming groups, playing in groups all day long in solo friendly games. Another game that comes in this category is City of HEroes. It was a FUN game. I really enjoyed playing the game, to a certain extent. I don't think I soloed in that game ever, except maybe now and then on the way to get a new quest, or tune up my character. BUT, the grouping aspect of the game, as far as the game mechanics of group play nad content was sadly lacking. It basically sucked in the grouping part of the game during the leveling phase. Again, very, very poor grouping content compared to a game like EQ or DAoC. I am NOT concerned with finding groups, getting in groups, playing all day in a group. I can do that in any SOLO friendly game. But IT"S NTO FUN! I want CONTENT! Not, the ability to find a group.
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp No, I am not asking for a server where all mobs are designed for groups. I'm asking for a server where the content is as challenging as the original EQ (which you could solo but it took a long time) or DAoC, which you could solo but it took a long time. These are the games the solo crowd calls "forced grouping". They can't level as fast as groupers, so they whine that they are "forced" to group, because they want to keep up. So, let me get this straight .. you're not asking for mobs designed for groups. All you're doing is demanding a huge nerf to the dominant playstyle to benefit your minority one.  |
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Originally posted by Ilvaldyr So, let me get this straight .. you're not asking for mobs designed for groups. All you're doing is demanding a huge nerf to the dominant playstyle to benefit your minority one.
Did you ever level up a toon in EQ or DAoC? I think those are good grouping games. Did you ever play LotRO or WoW? I think those are not good grouping games. I have no trouble with there being solo mobs in the game. Both EQ and DAoC had solo mobs in the game. Both LotRO and WoW have mobs for groups in the game. The design that makes the game fun for me has little to do with the presence or absence of group or solo mobs. The issue is the reward for group based content vs solo based content. I like a game, like EQ or DAoC, where the non-combat time spent on grouping is sufficiently compensated so you feel rewarded for taking on what is in my opinion the more challenging content of the game. I'll give you example. In City of Heroes, I could find group, after group, after group. But the content in the dungeons scaled, so it was harder or easier depending on your group size. And that made it way, way, way to easy. I didn't feel like I'd accomplished anything, because the dungeon did everything for me, just adjusted to my party size. And the level of cooperation required to get through the dungeon was minimal. You could almost just go in and let each person fight on their own to clear the dungeon, especially after buffs. The travel in CoH was fast and furious. Most groups were, wanna group? Yes! Group up, dungeon scales, beat mobs, beat mobs, beat mobs, that was a great group! Cya! Compare that to DAoC before the expansions. The Dungeons did NOT scale. They were a true obstacle to over come. If you played solo it was a LONG hard slog to make a level. If you were in a group you made xp MUCH faster, which means you didn't mind if the group argued about where to go, because once you got there you'd make it up in XP. The cooperation required was substantial. Miss one mez, or one heal, or aggro one mob you weren't supposed to, and it was a party wipe. Getting to the bottom of a dungeon and beating the boss mob was a major accomplishment and mile stone, because it did NOT scale. Either you could put together a group that could do it, or you could not. But if you wanted to solo, you COULD do it. But it was slow. You could make a few levels, and come back and clear the dungeon that I did with a group a few levels less than you solo. You'd get all the same drops, but they wouldnt' help you as much because they were not as powerful compared to your level. But you COULD solo if you really wanted to.
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp I really don't feel the need to have the same debate across two threads; so I'll merely echo what I have said elsewhere and state that you are displaying nothing but elitism with your continued pro-grouping rants. |
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Originally posted by Ilvaldyr On what are you basing the "dominant playstyle" claim? Even if most players solo more than group - it is because the games push them in that direction. Group-oriented designs would result in far more player grouping. Most people don't solo in MMOs by choice. |
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Originally posted by Ilvaldyr I really don't feel the need to have the same debate across two threads; so I'll merely echo what I have said elsewhere and state that you are displaying nothing but elitism with your continued pro-grouping rants.
This is want it seems to me like you are doing. It's as if I'm saying, dude, I really like First Person Shooter games! And you say, I'm not really into FPS games, but I really like RTS games, so if you design a game it HAS to have Some RTS elements in it. And I say, I just want a pure FPS game, the RTS elements will make it suck. And you say, well, you're being elitist! If you don't add RTS elements to your FPS game you're trying to exclude me! No, I just want an fps game. Not really trying to exclude you, but just dont' want you to screw up the game with RTS elements which I dont' find fun.
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp I'm saying: Give me a world with solo and group content. You're saying: Give me a world with only group content. And I'm being elitist? That's your argument, really? |
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Originally posted by Ilvaldyr I'm saying: Give me a world with solo and group content. You're saying: Give me a world with only group content. And I'm being elitist? That's your argument, really?
No. Your solo friendly content destroys the group content, IMO. Don't mind you playing solo, just dont' want you to destroy the group content. If you want to solo in a game like DAoC or EQ that's fine with me. If you want to dumb down the game so it's like WoW pre-raid, that pretty much screws up the group content for me. Again, solo all you want, just dont' dumb down the group content for me.
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Originally posted by MMO_Doubter On what are you basing the "dominant playstyle" claim? Even if most players solo more than group - it is because the games push them in that direction. Group-oriented designs would result in far more player grouping. Most people don't solo in MMOs by choice.
And that is simply incorrect unless you are trying to say that people defy human nature and their natural behavior once they are in a video game. |
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Originally posted by LynxJSA
And that is simply incorrect unless you are trying to say that people defy human nature and their natural behavior once they are in a video game.
I would say since the largest MMORPG on the planet, WoW, is a solo friendly game pre-raid, that the majority of players like to solo more than group. However, in games like EQ or DAoC, I would say that the majority of players in those games liked to group more than solo. I don't think it has anything to do with natural behavior in a video game though. People didn't naturally not group in EQ, or they dont' naturally solo in WoW. They play the game as it is presented to them, and the majority like to play solo games, for many different reasons. It's not like human nature makes people prefer fantasy to sci fi, even though that is currently the case.
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp And how does solo content destroy group content in a game like AoC? Both are viable; grouping is more rewarding than soloing, and as you've repeatedly said this morning, you don't have any problems finding groups in a solo friendly game, so how does letting me play the game how I want to have a detrimental result on you in any way? |
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Originally posted by MMO_Doubter Yes, it sounds great, and it would stop the more... emotional... grouping advocates boring the shit out of everyone in the forums. |
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Originally posted by Ilvaldyr And how does solo content destroy group content in a game like AoC? Both are viable; grouping is more rewarding than soloing, and as you've repeatedly said this morning, you don't have any problems finding groups in a solo friendly game, so how does letting me play the game how I want to have a detrimental result on you in any way?
How does a game like EQ or DAoC destroy the solo content for you? Both are viable.
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Shannia
Hard Core Member
Joined: 11/06/05
"World of WarCraft is held alive solely by the mediocrity of competing products." RendRegen |
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
No. Your solo friendly content destroys the group content, IMO. Don't mind you playing solo, just dont' want you to destroy the group content. If you want to solo in a game like DAoC or EQ that's fine with me. If you want to dumb down the game so it's like WoW pre-raid, that pretty much screws up the group content for me. Again, solo all you want, just dont' dumb down the group content for me.
Ihmotepp, you are really starting to double talk. What you are saying is that you are fine with solo and group content can coexist in a game one second but you don't want your group friendly game dumb down by solo content. So, that begs the question at what point in a game do you seperate solo from group content? Unless every single part of a game outside cities is instanced based on party make, that just can't happen and destroy the MMORPG world concept. Let's take a starter newbie quest for example in WoW where you are suppose to go kill Hogger, a level 10 elite. Some classes in WoW can solo him at level, most can't and require a group. So, what is our choices here to meet your criteria. Either the mob only spawns when people are around with the quest and he spawns as an elite or maybe rare depending on if the party is group or solo? Or, do you want the entire area around Hogger group content? At that point, you need an instance. Do you see what I'm getting at? Dungeons are made for group content and at level, solo players can't go there. By default, groupers are getting reward with fast more rewards and xp for their time. I'm sorry if you fail to realize that, but to make a game as you wish you need to play AoC or realize why the games are made the way they are. Open world is so much more immersive than closed instances it isn't even funny. Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware "Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product." |
Originally posted by Ihmotepp How does a game like EQ or DAoC destroy the solo content for you? Both are viable. Answering a question with a question to attempt to evade an argument you can't counter, perhaps? |
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Originally posted by Ilvaldyr Answering a question with a question to attempt to evade an argument you can't counter, perhaps?
Next he'll just start another thread and start regurgitating the same crap over and over. And and by another threat, I mean another other threat, because it's already happened more than once. |
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Originally posted by Shannia
No. Your solo friendly content destroys the group content, IMO. Don't mind you playing solo, just dont' want you to destroy the group content. If you want to solo in a game like DAoC or EQ that's fine with me. If you want to dumb down the game so it's like WoW pre-raid, that pretty much screws up the group content for me. Again, solo all you want, just dont' dumb down the group content for me.
Ihmotepp, you are really starting to double talk. What you are saying is that you are fine with solo and group content can coexist in a game one second but you don't want your group friendly game dumb down by solo content. So, that begs the question at what point in a game do you seperate solo from group content? Unless every single part of a game outside cities is instanced based on party make, that just can't happen and destroy the MMORPG world concept. Let's take a starter newbie quest for example in WoW where you are suppose to go kill Hogger, a level 10 elite. Some classes in WoW can solo him at level, most can't and require a group. So, what is our choices here to meet your criteria. Either the mob only spawns when people are around with the quest and he spawns as an elite or maybe rare depending on if the party is group or solo? Or, do you want the entire area around Hogger group content? At that point, you need an instance. Do you see what I'm getting at? Dungeons are made for group content and at level, solo players can't go there. By default, groupers are getting reward with fast more rewards and xp for their time. I'm sorry if you fail to realize that, but to make a game as you wish you need to play AoC or realize why the games are made the way they are. Open world is so much more immersive than closed instances it isn't even funny.
I dont' think grouping content in most games is important at all until somewhere between level 5 and 10 of most games. Takes that long for people to fine their way around the game, and grouping before then is mostly just frustrating anyways. I don't need to group with you while you figure out how to equip a potion, or you didn't know that the sword you are carrying and the ring you are wearing cancel each other out. Do I NEED to tackle Hogger to make good progress in the game? Or can I just as easily skip that content, save the time it takes to organize a group, and do a bunch of solo content instead? Hey, if you want to waste some time, you can go do the Hogger dungeon with a group. There ya go! What a great grouping game right? Uh, no not really. In EQ, you could solo to the level cap if you wanted to. BUT, it was going to be a Loooooooooooooong hard slog, and it would be much, much easier and faster if you grouped. Why is that? Because the content was primarily geared towards grouping, and not dumbed down so you could easily solo through it. This would compensate you for the NON-Combat time involved in grouping. It also allowed you to relax and chat with your group members without feeling like OMG! We're losing xp, hurry, hurry, hurry! No need to hurry in a good group, you'd make plenty of xp so just relax and figure out what you need to do and where you need to go.
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