I see this point raised over and over again.

WoW isn't solo friendly, because the End Game requires you to group!

Yes, it does, but the End Game in WoW is not a grouping game, it's a RAIDING game.

Grouping to level in a game like EQ or DAoC is not the same thing as RAIDING.

I don't like raiding. It's to cumbersome, requires to many people, guild politics, DPK, rolling for items, and all the drama that IMO is not fun in a game.

I like to play in group, not in a raid. So Raid content, IMO, is not a substitute for good Group content. But, people always seem to use the two as if they are the same.

I agree with you. What people dont get is that raiding in wow has nothing to do with proper grouping. wow raiding is nothing more then the run we did in diablo in a new skin. Run the same old place, either its ulduar or baal, for a chance to get new items, purples or golds. Its exactly the same thing, and not a industry secret either. And just like in diablo, theres little interaction between players. Its run here, do this, and shut up.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I see this point raised over and over again.

WoW isn't solo friendly, because the End Game requires you to group!

Yes, it does, but the End Game in WoW is not a grouping game, it's a RAIDING game.

Grouping to level in a game like EQ or DAoC is not the same thing as RAIDING.

I don't like raiding. It's to cumbersome, requires to many people, guild politics, DPK, rolling for items, and all the drama that IMO is not fun in a game.

I like to play in group, not in a raid. So Raid content, IMO, is not a substitute for good Group content. But, people always seem to use the two as if they are the same.

 

Doesn't appear that you've played WoW in a while.

WoW used to be a raiding game (40 players). It's not now.

Now the top content and gear is designed for 25 players.
The same content is also available to 10 players with slightly poorer loot.
There is also a great deal of content available to 5 players with slightly poorer loot still.

I don't know where you draw the line between grouping and raiding in terms of the number of participants involved, but WoW is not the game it used to be.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I see this point raised over and over again.

WoW isn't solo friendly, because the End Game requires you to group!

Yes, it does, but the End Game in WoW is not a grouping game, it's a RAIDING game.

Grouping to level in a game like EQ or DAoC is not the same thing as RAIDING.

I don't like raiding. It's to cumbersome, requires to many people, guild politics, DPK, rolling for items, and all the drama that IMO is not fun in a game.

I like to play in group, not in a raid. So Raid content, IMO, is not a substitute for good Group content. But, people always seem to use the two as if they are the same.

 

Doesn't appear that you've played WoW in a while.

WoW used to be a raiding game (40 players). It's not now.

Now the top content and gear is designed for 25 players.
The same content is also available to 10 players with slightly poorer loot.
There is also a great deal of content available to 5 players with slightly poorer loot still.

I don't know where you draw the line between grouping and raiding in terms of the number of participants involved, but WoW is not the game it used to be.

Lets not talk about the PVP  aspect as well.. That brings in a whole new dynamic :-D

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I see this point raised over and over again.

WoW isn't solo friendly, because the End Game requires you to group!

Yes, it does, but the End Game in WoW is not a grouping game, it's a RAIDING game.

Grouping to level in a game like EQ or DAoC is not the same thing as RAIDING.

I don't like raiding. It's to cumbersome, requires to many people, guild politics, DPK, rolling for items, and all the drama that IMO is not fun in a game.

I like to play in group, not in a raid. So Raid content, IMO, is not a substitute for good Group content. But, people always seem to use the two as if they are the same.

 

Doesn't appear that you've played WoW in a while.

WoW used to be a raiding game (40 players). It's not now.

Now the top content and gear is designed for 25 players.
The same content is also available to 10 players with slightly poorer loot.
There is also a great deal of content available to 5 players with slightly poorer loot still.

I don't know where you draw the line between grouping and raiding in terms of the number of participants involved, but WoW is not the game it used to be.

His point seems to be very simple and totally correct. RAIDING is not GROUPING and it is not nearly as fun as the real grouping experience. Anything over the normal grouping size is unnecessary.

RAIDING is  just a DIablo style rush through someplace to gain some item and you HAVE to do it hundreds of times if you want the best items. It is not fun, it is very boring and a waste of time.

GROUPING is a small unit that goes out to gain experience or completing a mission to gain something where everyone in the group benefits.

I think RAIDING should be pulled out of the MMOs and the only thing Dev's should focus on is better GROUPING missions.

Dev's could easily come up with better ways do make things better, like a crafter economy like in PRE NGE SWG. Or like asheron's call 2 did with main bosses who only guarded treasure chests and you had to bring your own keys to unlock that chest. Each person is responsible for thier own key(s) and you each looted the chest to get the random items. The boss dropped nothing so there was no camping.

Originally posted by Vapor  Or like asheron's call 2 did with main bosses who only guarded treasure chests and you had to bring your own keys to unlock that chest. Each person is responsible for thier own key(s) and you each looted the chest to get the random items. The boss dropped nothing so there was no camping.

I never played that game, but that sounds brilliant!

Originally posted by Vapor

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I see this point raised over and over again.

WoW isn't solo friendly, because the End Game requires you to group!

Yes, it does, but the End Game in WoW is not a grouping game, it's a RAIDING game.

Grouping to level in a game like EQ or DAoC is not the same thing as RAIDING.

I don't like raiding. It's to cumbersome, requires to many people, guild politics, DPK, rolling for items, and all the drama that IMO is not fun in a game.

I like to play in group, not in a raid. So Raid content, IMO, is not a substitute for good Group content. But, people always seem to use the two as if they are the same.

 

Doesn't appear that you've played WoW in a while.

WoW used to be a raiding game (40 players). It's not now.

Now the top content and gear is designed for 25 players.
The same content is also available to 10 players with slightly poorer loot.
There is also a great deal of content available to 5 players with slightly poorer loot still.

I don't know where you draw the line between grouping and raiding in terms of the number of participants involved, but WoW is not the game it used to be.

His point seems to be very simple and totally correct. RAIDING is not GROUPING and it is not nearly as fun as the real grouping experience. Anything over the normal grouping size is unnecessary.

RAIDING is  just a DIablo style rush through someplace to gain some item and you HAVE to do it hundreds of times if you want the best items. It is not fun, it is very boring and a waste of time.

GROUPING is a small unit that goes out to gain experience or completing a mission to gain something where everyone in the group benefits.

I think RAIDING should be pulled out of the MMOs and the only thing Dev's should focus on is better GROUPING missions.

Dev's could easily come up with better ways do make things better, like a crafter economy like in PRE NGE SWG. Or like asheron's call 2 did with main bosses who only guarded treasure chests and you had to bring your own keys to unlock that chest. Each person is responsible for thier own key(s) and you each looted the chest to get the random items. The boss dropped nothing so there was no camping.

Then what is a 25-man level 80 instance in WoW?

Everyone in the group benefits in terms of reputation and tokens, but there is also the drop element.

Absolutely agree with Ihmotepp and I've pointed this out before myself. 

I've been spewing vitriolic hate for raiding since I first started coming to this site (and before then too).  On the other hand I love grouping, or at least I love it if the game is really built for it.  I understand that the line between the two can get a little blurry these days but I think I'll let others wrangle over the definitions for now.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Vapor

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I see this point raised over and over again.

WoW isn't solo friendly, because the End Game requires you to group!

Yes, it does, but the End Game in WoW is not a grouping game, it's a RAIDING game.

Grouping to level in a game like EQ or DAoC is not the same thing as RAIDING.

I don't like raiding. It's to cumbersome, requires to many people, guild politics, DPK, rolling for items, and all the drama that IMO is not fun in a game.

I like to play in group, not in a raid. So Raid content, IMO, is not a substitute for good Group content. But, people always seem to use the two as if they are the same.

 

Doesn't appear that you've played WoW in a while.

WoW used to be a raiding game (40 players). It's not now.

Now the top content and gear is designed for 25 players.
The same content is also available to 10 players with slightly poorer loot.
There is also a great deal of content available to 5 players with slightly poorer loot still.

I don't know where you draw the line between grouping and raiding in terms of the number of participants involved, but WoW is not the game it used to be.

His point seems to be very simple and totally correct. RAIDING is not GROUPING and it is not nearly as fun as the real grouping experience. Anything over the normal grouping size is unnecessary.

RAIDING is  just a DIablo style rush through someplace to gain some item and you HAVE to do it hundreds of times if you want the best items. It is not fun, it is very boring and a waste of time.

GROUPING is a small unit that goes out to gain experience or completing a mission to gain something where everyone in the group benefits.

I think RAIDING should be pulled out of the MMOs and the only thing Dev's should focus on is better GROUPING missions.

Dev's could easily come up with better ways do make things better, like a crafter economy like in PRE NGE SWG. Or like asheron's call 2 did with main bosses who only guarded treasure chests and you had to bring your own keys to unlock that chest. Each person is responsible for thier own key(s) and you each looted the chest to get the random items. The boss dropped nothing so there was no camping.

Then what is a 25-man level 80 instance in WoW?

Everyone in the group benefits in terms of reputation and tokens, but there is also the drop element.

Thats the same concept of a 50 man but with a smaller amount of people. They still FORCE you to do a RAID to get certain items with an end state to attain the best items in the game.

Either way, a GROUP is small a RAID is large. Ther is no reason those same tasks couldnt have been designed for a group of 5-8 whatever any game has for its party size.

I see this argument about grouping and raiding in WoW and I just dont get it. WoW end game is not just about raiding or just about grouping or just about soloing, they have a mix of all three elements. There are only 7 lvl 80 raid dungeons, 13 group instances and 11 questing zones. If you want to solo there are 13 factions per side you can work on that will give you nearly raid quality gear for very little effort. If you just want to group you have 13 dungeons to run that reward epic loot like candy AND tokens to buy some of the best raid gear available.

I cant stand raiding in WoW myself but for totally different reasons. 10/25 man raiding to me is just a joke. I loved the 20 man groups in SWG and 72 man raids in EQ so hearing someone call a 10 man instance a "raid zone" cracks me up. If you choose not to raid in WoW, you arent missing out on anything other than slight upgrades to the epics you get from soloing/grouping. I know some people who group want to wear the same exact thing as someone who raids, without raiding, but for what purpose? As you solo, you get better equipment to progress your soloing game. Each upgrade is designed to make that experience a little better or easier for you so you are ready for the next solo content. Group content works the same way, you follow along a path of upgrades making it easier to tackle the next content. Raiding is no different, you get better items each step of the way to prepare you for the final battle. Why does someone who never plans on participating in the Northrend Beast fight, need to worry about equipping him/herself for that fight?

 I like grouping, I don't like raiding or soloing.