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Originally posted by ArcAngel3
And I'm pretty sure all of the "change after change after changes" listed here occurred after the NGE. Grumpy old men stuck in the past? Hardly. It seems that SOE continues on its self-destructive pattern of alienating one playerbase after another until they have barely anyone left. Closing a dozen servers is a good indication of a severely diminshed population imo. You don't lose that many servers and players by giving them an enjoyable experience.
You, Sir, are exactly correct. My daughter played pre-CU and CU. When NGE came around, she griped, screamed, de-railed on SWG so much I had to get into the game just to find out what she was screaming about. I did, just a few days into the NGE. She quit a day or so into NGE. It was my 1st MMO, I had no idea, at that time, what was lost with CU/NGE. I had no idea about game CHANGES and how game-breaking they could be but SOE was sure to teach me everything I needed to know. These were just a few of the larger CHANGES I listed after NGE. There were many more. Your again correct. One would of thought that SOE Austin would have learned it's lesson after CU/NGE but every Producer who came afterwards had their own vision and re-made the game after their own image. Lorin Jameson was probably the largest of these as he thought he would re-make SWG in "some" of the older incarnations to draw every1 back to SOE from here. We all know the outcome of all of his CHANGES and the free vet trials for you all to come back and see his CHANGES in action. SOE wanted WoW but they never quite figured out what WoW and it's success was all about. While it's true that WoW is probably the largest theme park out there, Blizzard keeps adding to the theme park with new levels, content, worlds, etc etc, at just the right time to keep most of their players interested and going. 11 mil in subs lets a gaming co. have many dev depts. SOE, post NGE, at most had 20 developers and they couldn't keep up with the developing requirements of a directed content theme park. They got what they wanted, according to Rubinfields blog. They CHANGED the game enough to run off most of the older players, got their theme park, had no idea what to do with it so they kept trying to simplify it, and CHANGED their way right out of the game in it's entireity. |
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Originally posted by JestorRodo Um ... what So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist. |
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JestorRodo
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 2/24/05
Avoid the DarkDownload - Come to MMOfringe.com Love that Jestor! |
The Turkey Day Rodo Report! Love that Jestor! |
12 closed = 100% correct. 13 dead servers = 100% wrong. I am not saying this because I enjoy SWG. But every of the remaining servers have a healthy population. Starsider to mention one is almost constantly on very heavy population and might even have too many players. |
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Originally posted by blueshadow
12 closed = 100% correct. 13 dead servers = 100% wrong. I am not saying this because I enjoy SWG. But almost every of the remaining servers have a healthy population. Starsider to mention one is almost constantly on very heavy and might even have too many players. agreed remaining 13 are doing well. bria,starsider and bloodfin have that old pre-nge feel in that it's busy. mos eisly is packed mid day. |
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Originally posted by Pcgamer81 agreed remaining 13 are doing well. bria,starsider and bloodfin have that old pre-nge feel in that it's busy. mos eisly is packed mid day.
I guess losing 356 officers in one week is doing well. |
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Originally posted by Pcgamer81
Pre-nge the game was packed in more than just one city. Realistically we are talking about a game going from 25 healthy servers to 1-3 with some feeling of the old population.
It really doesn't matter how we count numbers, because it is still a massive train wreck. A well made star wars game should be bullet proof to this type of decline. |
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Originally posted by Pcgamer81 agreed remaining 13 are doing well. bria,starsider and bloodfin have that old pre-nge feel in that it's busy. mos eisly is packed mid day. Huh? I'm on Bria at the moment, and it's dead compared to what it was in Dec. 07 when I transfered from Kauri. If you actualy take the time to look, I'll bet you find "Bria is dead" or "How we can re-build Bria" threads on the O-Borads right now. If you believe Bria has a "pre-CU" feel or is doing just great, you are probably mis-informed. Bria is no where as good, population wise, as it was at the Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade much less pre-CU. If one would read the GP forums, you'll find Gorath, from the people that are on it, is rather dead. Other threads lead one to believe that there are many others that fall into this catagory. Most on the other servers, except Starsider, are calling for another round of FTS so they can get off their dead servers. Do you guys believe that we do not read the O-Boards or not really know what's going on? |
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Originally posted by Esquire1980 agreed remaining 13 are doing well. bria,starsider and bloodfin have that old pre-nge feel in that it's busy. mos eisly is packed mid day. Huh? I'm on Bria at the moment, and it's dead compared to what it was in Dec. 07 when I transfered from Kauri. If you actualy take the time to look, I'll bet you find "Bria is dead" or "How we can re-build Bria" threads on the O-Borads right now. If you believe Bria has a "pre-CU" feel or is doing just great, you are probably mis-informed. Bria is no where as good, population wise, as it was at the Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade much less pre-CU. If one would read the GP forums, you'll find Gorath, from the people that are on it, is rather dead. Other threads lead one to believe that there are many others that fall into this catagory. Most on the other servers, except Starsider, are calling for another round of FTS so they can get off their dead servers. Do you guys believe that we do not read the O-Boards or not really know what's going on?
I think what's interesting is that the servers that were cut were all labeled light or very light. Currently there are several that are still labeled light and very light. Obviously the servers need much more consolidation - perhaps to as few as 3-4, or 5 at maximum.
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TUX426
Hard Core Member
Joined: 8/04/09
Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else. |
Originally posted by Pcgamer81 agreed remaining 13 are doing well. bria,starsider and bloodfin have that old pre-nge feel in that it's busy. mos eisly is packed mid day.
Add to this last weeks ALL TIME LOW of 7795 total officers and there seems to be evidence to the contrary of a "healthy population". |
Originally posted by TUX426
Add to this last weeks ALL TIME LOW of 7795 total officers and there seems to be evidence to the contrary of a "healthy population".
If you guys are trying to paint a picture of SWG having almost empty servers, a log into the game would have given you a rude awakening. At this time. 6 Servers are actually running on medium population only two that are very light (and thats europe server.. and thats understandable at 4 in the morning in europe )and one actually "extremely heavy" population. I have been to those servers and I can not remember last time I saw that many people Mos EIsley is packed with people Everywhiere. From inside startport to every corner of that city. Galactic moon festival is really fun. And I would recomend everyone that have played SWG but not since 2005 to actually try it. I am really happy I did and that I managed to leave all that bitterness behind me.
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Originally posted by blueshadow THey dont hate SWG, they hate SOE. |
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Originally posted by lugal THey dont hate SWG, they hate SOE. Yeah.. Well most of the people that hate SOE, chances are that they probably drink things from companies far greedier than SOE will ever be, eat food from companies that don't care if you die from being overweight and get a heart attack. Wear clothes that are made by children workers in 3rd world countries.. Its a bit ironic. |
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Originally posted by blueshadow
If you consider that there are 6 levels to a server population (very light, light, medium, heavy, very heavy, extremely heavy) medium is only nearing the middleground. If you had 6 servers on medium they could easily be condensed into 3. Then 1 extremely heavy server, and all the very light and light servers onto one other. Thats a total of 5, and that is where SoE should have aimed for.
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Originally posted by blueshadow
You seem to be fixated on the ones that, you say, haven't played since Nov 05. There is probably very few here, that would fall into that catagory. Last year, and part of this one, SOE gave several different free "vet" trials. Most took them up on the offer and they seen 1st hand what the game is and what it has become since Nov 05. You skipped my post in it's entirety, probably due to the statment that I am currently subed with 1 account. BTW, Tux was a senator just a few short months ago. So this is not all about "you all don't know what's going on anymore". Most here do know. But, the point your forgetting is, we all still remember our toons and the game of (insert a seperate incarnation of SWG here) and some of us happen to think that other "game" was much better. We get in game and remember what our LS jedi used to be able to do (now, "LS = pve (tank)"), remember our toon standing up rather well in PVP, remember when we still had some content to actualy do without running it for the 1000th time, remember when our crafters did 50 - 100 mil a week, and just somehow can not stomach the lower population, that you have in game today, and/or the CHANGED gameplay from whatever incarnation of the game that we actually liked. I used to be like you. Thinking that SWG could recover. Then they CHANGED the game on me, yet again. They will get you again also. The only constant in SWG is: There will be less subs after the CHANGE than there were before the CHANGE! |
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Originally posted by Esquire1980
You seem to be fixated on the ones that, you say, haven't played since Nov 05. There is probably very few here, that would fall into that catagory. Last year, and part of this one, SOE gave several different free "vet" trials. Most took them up on the offer and they seen 1st hand what the game is and what it has become since Nov 05. You skipped my post in it's entirety, probably due to the statment that I am currently subed with 1 account. BTW, Tux was a senator just a few short months ago. So this is not all about "you all don't know what's going on anymore". Most here do know. But, the point your forgetting is, we all still remember our toons and the game of (insert a seperate incarnation of SWG here) and some of us happen to think that other "game" was much better. We get in game and remember what our LS jedi used to be able to do (now, "LS = pve (tank)"), remember our toon standing up rather well in PVP, remember when we still had some content to actualy do without running it for the 1000th time, remember when our crafters did 50 - 100 mil a week, and just somehow can not stomach the lower population, that you have in game today, and/or the CHANGED gameplay from whatever incarnation of the game that we actually liked. I used to be like you. Thinking that SWG could recover. Then they CHANGED the game on me, yet again. They will get you again also. The only constant in SWG is: There will be less subs after the CHANGE than there were before the CHANGE!
Yes, but was really a game with just one working template that everyone wanted to be, to be OP, a working game? (I loved the sandbox so don't get me wrong, but that sandbox is still in the game. Its classes that have changed mostly). Classes today are a lot more balanced. And the game is no longer basically an intense grind to become a jedi. And remember that the game started to loose lots of subscribers long before CU. CU was the first patch aimed at "saving" a game that had started going downhill. And the fact that you now can respec and it will "remember" your old class. Say you go from being Jedi to crafter.. and then go back to jedi later, you are still your old level. I would call that an improvement. If SWG in its current incarnation had been launched instead of the old SWG. The game would have been a lot bigger today. That is what I belive. I mean.. if SWG back then. In 2005 had been so great. Would it not have had 11 million players ?.. or at least one million? Another game that was launched in 2004 proved that to be possible. In my opinion what made problems for SWG was Jedi. I have heard rumours that it was a class not intended to be in the game. And Devs never found a good way to implement it. The game would have been awesome if it had been what it was without Jedi class. A virtual world with out jedis. Jedis could have been there, but they should have been NPCS. But since Jedis already were there.. and damage had happened. Making them a class to choose from beginning like, TOR will have, was probably best thing they could do.
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Originally posted by blueshadow You just don't get it. SWG back in 2003 was a fantastic foundation of a game that was rushed to market before it was anywhere close to being ready. Despite the terrible condition the game was in, it thrived. It was the second largest mmo in the western market BEFORE there were millions of players. We will never know if it could reach the millions of new players joining, because soe mismanged the project to the point of driving players away with each patch. For the first 2 years they completely ignored what PLAYERS were asking for and instead followed the path they thought would make them the most MONEY. Each and every time they ignored the players it cost them subscribers and money. I don't think it would be possible for soe to have screwed up running this game in the first two years even if they were intentionally trying to. Instead of fixing the game like everyone wanted, they revamped the game in a fashion no player asked for, worked on expansions as the base game festered, wildly revamped classes and systems and left them just as broken as they started. Now you want to compare a game that has FOUR years of development time and pretend it is somehow better? Soe has done NOTHING the last four years, except work on the core star wars games. So fucking what if it took four years to balance 9 classes. That is not something to be proud of or compare to the old game as if the new is somehow better. Even as busted as the old game was, there was balance, because anyone could be anything and there were a ton of great templates. If soe had put just a little effort into balancing the original game they would not have had to waste 6 years ruining the game to the point people have to bet angry vets to come back and save the game.
Now you say if SWG was released in the condition it was today it would do much better than it did back in the day? That is easy to prove incorrect. Your version of SWG is available right now! There are millions of gamers running around looking at new games, but SWG is shrinking. It cannot even attract players who are desperate for a new mmo and by your accounts this game is some shiny new best sandbox on the market game. If the game would have some awesome release today, then why can't it even attract new players right now? SWG cannot attract players now so there is no reason to suspect it would somehow end up any different if it was released today.
The GAMEPLAY is not strong enough to attract and retain players today. End of story. |
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Originally posted by blueshadow
Yes, but was really a game with just one working template that everyone wanted to be, to be OP, a working game? (I loved the sandbox so don't get me wrong, but that sandbox is still in the game. Its classes that have changed mostly). Classes today are a lot more balanced. And the game is no longer basically an intense grind to become a jedi. And remember that the game started to loose lots of subscribers long before CU. CU was the first patch aimed at "saving" a game that had started going downhill. And the fact that you now can respec and it will "remember" your old class. Say you go from being Jedi to crafter.. and then go back to jedi later, you are still your old level. I would call that an improvement. If SWG in its current incarnation had been launched instead of the old SWG. The game would have been a lot bigger today. That is what I belive. I mean.. if SWG back then. In 2005 had been so great. Would it not have had 11 million players ?.. or at least one million? Another game that was launched in 2004 proved that to be possible. In my opinion what made problems for SWG was Jedi. I have heard rumours that it was a class not intended to be in the game. And Devs never found a good way to implement it. The game would have been awesome if it had been what it was without Jedi class. A virtual world with out jedis. Jedis could have been there, but they should have been NPCS. But since Jedis already were there.. and damage had happened. Making them a class to choose from beginning like, TOR will have, was probably best thing they could do.
You have me confused with someone who actually played pre-CU, although I am right now, in fact, but that's another story. I started a couple of days into NGE so, up to recently I had heard all about pre-CU/CU but never really experienced it. So, my perspective is from the last 4 years and SOE has alienated me, also, with game-breaking CHANGES. While you were gone, post NGE, they added expertise (which I liked), several CHANGES to professions/NERFS, which I weathered somewhat well. But, then, there was a producer, that had in his head he would re-make the game, yet again. Another basic NGE, this time done in increments instead of 1 large patch over the period of 1 year+. The Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade to GU-Whatever was yet another version of NGE without taking out professions, altho, LS jedi lost their entire ability to PVP without trying to outbuff the other professions to "balance" againt all the other professions. The design was and is currently "LS = pve (tank)", Quote from Blixtev, and if a LS jedi trys to play outside of those boundrys they are at a deficit. So, SWG went another year between C6CD and GU-? with monthly CHANGES and that is why your NGE population is way down. Smedley did release at C6CD that SWG had 100K subs. Now, players have estimated it at 10-30K on the O-boards. If we take the top number, it would seem that the "new" NGE (C6CD-GU-?) lost the same percentages of population as the original NGE did. 2/3rds, the loss in population just came in increments right along with the CHANGES. So, I ended up coming here and telling these guys they were right, reluctantly at 1st. They CHANGED the game even on the NGE players, just like they did with pre-CU players, and CU players. They learned nothing except lip service promising to never repeat the mistakes of the past (video interview here (right before C6CD) on MMORPG.com while at the same exact time, planning the release of C6CD, which CHANGED the complete difficulty in game and the combat stats, what they meant, how they stacked, a combat "downgrade" in it's entirety. If LA lets SWG live, post TOR (which I seriously doubt due to SOE not even playing it's IP fees now and for year(s)), there will be yet another Producer who gets it in his head he can CHANGE the game enough to "save it" and get those WoW type subscription numbers and you, (not I, this time) will endure another large patch or another year of patches that will CHANGE the game again for the 4th time for the 5th incarnation of SWG. If you want to go thru that again, more power to you. I'm tired of it. And to tell you the truth, I look very much forward to unlocking my jedi via flightless birds.
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Originally posted by Esquire1980
You have me confused with someone who actually played pre-CU, although I am right now, in fact, but that's another story. I started a couple of days into NGE so, up to recently I had heard all about pre-CU/CU but never really experienced it. So, my perspective is from the last 4 years and SOE has alienated me, also, with game-breaking CHANGES. While you were gone, post NGE, they added expertise (which I liked), several CHANGES to professions/NERFS, which I weathered somewhat well. But, then, there was a producer, that had in his head he would re-make the game, yet again. Another basic NGE, this time done in increments instead of 1 large patch over the period of 1 year+. The Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade to GU-Whatever was yet another version of NGE without taking out professions, altho, LS jedi lost their entire ability to PVP without trying to outbuff the other professions to "balance" againt all the other professions. The design was and is currently "LS = pve (tank)", Quote from Blixtev, and if a LS jedi trys to play outside of those boundrys they are at a deficit. So, SWG went another year between C6CD and GU-? with monthly CHANGES and that is why your NGE population is way down. Smedley did release at C6CD that SWG had 100K subs. Now, players have estimated it at 10-30K on the O-boards. If we take the top number, it would seem that the "new" NGE (C6CD-GU-?) lost the same percentages of population as the original NGE did. 2/3rds, the loss in population just came in increments right along with the CHANGES. So, I ended up coming here and telling these guys they were right, reluctantly at 1st. They CHANGED the game even on the NGE players, just like they did with pre-CU players, and CU players. They learned nothing except lip service promising to never repeat the mistakes of the past (video interview here (right before C6CD) on MMORPG.com while at the same exact time, planning the release of C6CD, which CHANGED the complete difficulty in game and the combat stats, what they meant, how they stacked, a combat "downgrade" in it's entirety. If LA lets SWG live, post TOR (which I seriously doubt due to SOE not even playing it's IP fees now and for year(s)), there will be yet another Producer who gets it in his head he can CHANGE the game enough to "save it" and get those WoW type subscription numbers and you, (not I, this time) will endure another large patch or another year of patches that will CHANGE the game again for the 4th time for the 5th incarnation of SWG. If you want to go thru that again, more power to you. I'm tired of it. And to tell you the truth, I look very much forward to unlocking my jedi via flightless birds.
Hmm.. if its a class nerf, that would be something that happens quite regularly in mmo games. I play wow, and OP classes goes from top to bottom regularly. Its just nature of any MMRPG. No class can or should be overpowered. And they really change. Everyone that have played wow and probably other MMORPGs for a long time can probably tell that no one should ever pick a class due to being the stronges or whatever as they change all the time. I mean my druid in wow, that was useless in anything but healing 4 years ago beats warriors in tanking now. Warlocks that were king of pvp is at bottom now and so on. Not to mention deathknights.. I am sure that the same thing will happen in TOR. Classes will be changed, some strengthened some nerfed, this will go on forverer probably. Flavor of the month classes will be given nerf bats etc. Balancing classes in MMORPG is something that always creates a lot of tension between developers and Players. |
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Blueshadow, what you are comparing is typical class balance of normal mmos to the completely wild and aimless game changes in swg. The things that go on in swg are not the normal occurances of other mmos. That is why there are some many memorable milestones in the development of swg. Note that they are not milestones people refer to as great achievements, but rather bad changes to the game. Another note is that soe does nothing to correct those mistakes. They just tune out the players concerns and march on to the next random task they conjure up.
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