If anything, EVE will become even more stronger then now.

STO or SWO will never have the depth of EVE unless CCP stops updating and adding to their game for a few years. Once people are bored of STO and SWO "wow clone" type of gameplay, they will want sci-fi with more depth. Many will take a moment to look at EVE. That's what happened when WOW came out...

Like someone said: STO will be a niche game and SWO will be very mainstream. I doubt it will become the next big thing but only time will say. Right now SWO doesn't seem to bring anything really new to the table aside from a more sophisticated questing system, influence and such.

STO seems to be going in a great direction but the lack of information is keeping us in the dark. No opinion can really be formed at the moment.

I think that TOR might not attract a instant upon release core of players - due to SWG's history - many, myself included, may wait and see before playing it. The history I am referring to is not just it's complexity but also the instant change of rules that happened. Now I might be wrong but, I for one, will wait and see on TOR. I confess to playing both MMO's and SP games so I can get along just fine without it till I know it is cool. I play RPG's and strategy games (EUIII), so I know there will always be something to play.

I think you are certainly WRONG. Only a small percentage of SW fans have ever played, or aware of  SWG's history. What is SWG's highest sub number? 200k? 500? That is a drop in the bucket of the market Bioware is going after.

If you look at Bioware's track record in sales, and console SW games in general, the market is a LOT bigger than what SWG has touched. And I bet all those Bioware fans & SW console game fans would give TOR a chance.

The question is really not whether it will sell big at the start (which i think it will, sans some very very bad reviews or word of mouth), but whether it can keep subs for an extended period of time. The first is virtually guaranteed with the Bioware name & SW name (plus likely some very polished starting areas). But whether it will KEEP players, depends on the depth of the game.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

OP: You have to look through history (and by that in the future) by analysing big trends and "waves"

The problem with people here is that they watch the "details" but not the big picture.

The history of mmorpg's within 10 years will be something described as:

First there was Utlima 1(off line) then there was the MUD's, then Utima On line which resulted in a graphical update and streamlining through Everquest.

Then Blizzard became the all time biggest mmorpg designer with World of Warcraft.

--- We are now up to this point ---

Where will we go from here? NO one knows. But games like War, AoC and Aion would hardly get a footnote in that history book.

With WOW, the mmorpg genre has reached its pinnacle in succes rate.

Something NEW has to come out now in ON LNE gaming within an alternate reality setting.

The "killing boars things on a red planet with light sabres and maces" to go to new set levels will simply NOT do it anymore to "advance" in this industry.

So it is either that or play the next 2876th Korean implementation of killing monsters to go to 758th level.

Very easy to do the above btw. Very lucrative to make money for 6 months.

But you can not fool all the people all of the time.

So My guess is the "real effect" will come from a game which will introduce a new kind of on line experience set in an alternate reality where everyone and his dog can find his/her challenge.

If the games can stay away from the blue above, they will be welcomed. If not they will be shot.

 

I dont necesarily agree that inovation is the only way a game can be succesful. Polish can make a diference and if Aion manages to muster some staying power it will likely be because of it.

WOW certainly could be named as the greatest example of a game becoming a success without bringing anything new to the table.

And your "big picture" of history is kinda narrow minded. No mention of SWG, or f2p models. You wouldnt mention AoC if discussing the evolution of graphics? You wouldnt talk about WAR in a narrative of RvR or server populations? THOSE WHO FORGET HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT, ever heard of Santayana? History relies on many sources, writing it is an art. By your outlook you seem like the kind of guy who will write his own country in every other paragraph of a world history and ignore the big events that didnt affect it much. Yes WOW will get its own chapter on an MMO history, it will hardly be a chapter filled with praises however. 
 

STO looks pretty rubbish from everything I've seen so far. SWTOR has great potential. IP is hugely popular and it's backed by a great developer. I know star trek is also a huge IP but it has nothing on star wars.

Originally posted by elderotter

I think that  TOR might not attract a instant upon release core of players - due to SWG's history - many, myself included, may wait and see before playing it.  The history I am referring to is not just it's complexity but also the instant change of rules that happened.  Now I might be wrong  but, I for one, will wait and see on TOR.  I confess to playing both MMO's and SP games so I can get along just fine without it till I know it is cool.  I play RPG's and strategy games (EUIII), so I know there will always be something to play.

This doesn't really make any sense. Let me get this straight. So you're saying that even though TOR is made by a completely different company in a completely different way AND is using a completely different time period of Star Wars, what happened in SWG might keep you from playing it? I hope you see the logical fallacy there.

Bioware does NOT equal SOE in any way. They had absolutely nothing to do with that blunder. Bioware's games are leagues beyond SOE in terms of quality and should never be compared with that disaster of a company. Now you might argue that both games are influenced by Lucasarts. That is true, but Lucasarts was not the entity that designed, implemented, and then 100% supported the NGE in SWG. That was SOE and their evil emperor Smedly.

I suppose I got a little off topic, so I will answer the OP's question as well. I personally think that TOR will be the next big MMO. I don't think that STO will hold a candle to it in terms of quality or content. From everything I have heard, STO will be using procedurally generated content for almost everything, meaning that missions are automatically generated by the game. What you will get is very bland, boring missions similar to the instanced randomized ones in COX. On the other hand, you have TOR which is being painstakingly developed by probably the best RPG makers in the World. Every single quest is being designed with the same (or greater) quality we have seen in games like KOTOR and other Bioware titles.

However, I think both games have a good chance for success and I plan to play both of them extensively. I am a huge fan of both IPs and I think that will be enough to keep me interested in them for a good long while.

Hm I dunno why anyone would name TOR and STO in one breath. Star Wars isn't really Sci-Fi, more techno-Fantasy. STO looks like a sort of EVE or PotBS in space. A sci-fi space shooter, which will have it's audience, but not much more than EVE, prolly. For any Trek fan I know among my friends, the idea of a space shooter isnt very attractive. I think Cryptic has little idea about what a Trekkie would like. *shrug*

As to TOR... hard to say with so little knowledge. I'd say it is a new experiment, a new sort of MMO, and whether it suceeeds or not, is really impossible to tell. The Dark Side clouds everything. XD

Really... I don't see ANY MMO having the success of WOW again; it was at a crucial moment in MMO history which we won't see again, at least that's my opinion. I suppose TOR will be a success, and I think it will re-write the book what a MMO is with its heavy story emphasis.

Originally posted by illanadan

 Many people do say that SWTOR will have a bigger following but I for one am not sure. STO is doing it right! They are releasing their game after the $72.5 million box office opening of the new movie. Sure Star Wars is well known but isn't Star Trek also? Look at the sheer amount of literature, games, movies and T.V series that this IP has spawned. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I for one am planning on playing both of them (as are many others I image) and can't wait to get a chance to pilot my own star ship, kill some aliens and have sex with others (James T. Kirk, you are my alien seducing idol!)   

Two things to keep in mind here.  First, the Star Trek movie is six months old now, and it will be nearly two years old or possibly older when STO is finally released.  I think the movie will have minimal if any impact.  That being said, if there's a second movie, and they time the release with a new movie's release, then we're in an entirely different situation.  Second, box office figures can provide a pretty telling picture as to the size of the fanbase, and that information is as follows:

Star Trek (new movie):  Total gross $350 milliion worldwide as of today. (All other Star Trek movies barely pass 100 million, with a few exceptions, first contact being the 2nd highest grosser at $150 million)

Star Wars 1:  950 million total gross

SW2:  650 million total gross

SW3:  850 million total gross

I think it's pretty clear that Star Trek has a much smaller following than Star Wars.  Don't get me wrong, I personally like Star Trek much more than Star Wars, and just because ST doesn't have as big a following doesn't mean it isn't a profitable niche.  But the numbers don't lie, and it really makes sense.  If you wanna compare it to mmos, Star Trek is like a nice deep sandbox game.  Lots of depth, and much more about the humanity, drama, and leadership.  Star Wars is wowified.  Tons of flashy effects and in general mindless entertainment for the masses (not that there's anything wrong with a little mindlessness every now and then).  I think it's clear that TOR will have that mass appeal that STO just won't have because the IP is so much different.  

Then again, Cryptic looks like they're trying to wowify STO, so who knows.  Maybe it will be mindless enough for the masses in the end.

I don't think either of these games will have any significant impact on Eve.  The only people from Eve that these games will get are those who have recently started and are still trying it out.  Those who have been with eve for years won't even give these new games a second glance.  They're both massively shallow in comparison to eve.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

OP: You have to look through history (and by that in the future) by analysing big trends and "waves"

The problem with people here is that they watch the "details" but not the big picture.

The history of mmorpg's within 10 years will be something described as:

First there was Utlima 1(off line) then there was the MUD's, then Utima On line which resulted in a graphical update and streamlining through Everquest.

Then Blizzard became the all time biggest mmorpg designer with World of Warcraft.

--- We are now up to this point ---

Where will we go from here? NO one knows. But games like War, AoC and Aion would hardly get a footnote in that history book.

With WOW, the mmorpg genre has reached its pinnacle in succes rate.

Something NEW has to come out now in ON LNE gaming within an alternate reality setting.

The "killing boars things on a red planet with light sabres and maces" to go to new set levels will simply NOT do it anymore to "advance" in this industry.

So it is either that or play the next 2876th Korean implementation of killing monsters to go to 758th level.

Very easy to do the above btw. Very lucrative to make money for 6 months.

But you can not fool all the people all of the time.

So My guess is the "real effect" will come from a game which will introduce a new kind of on line experience set in an alternate reality where everyone and his dog can find his/her challenge.

If the games can stay away from the blue above, they will be welcomed. If not they will be shot.

 

Aion has around 170 servers worldwide. That's a pretty big footnote.

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by illanadan

 Many people do say that SWTOR will have a bigger following but I for one am not sure. STO is doing it right! They are releasing their game after the $72.5 million box office opening of the new movie. Sure Star Wars is well known but isn't Star Trek also? Look at the sheer amount of literature, games, movies and T.V series that this IP has spawned. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I for one am planning on playing both of them (as are many others I image) and can't wait to get a chance to pilot my own star ship, kill some aliens and have sex with others (James T. Kirk, you are my alien seducing idol!)   

 

Two things to keep in mind here.  First, the Star Trek movie is six months old now, and it will be nearly two years old or possibly older when STO is finally released.  I think the movie will have minimal if any impact.  Second, box office figures can provide a pretty telling picture as to the size of the fanbase, and that information is as follows:

Star Trek (new movie):  Total gross $350 milliion worldwide as of today.

Star Wars 1:  950 million total gross

SW2:  650 million total gross

SW3:  850 million total gross

 

I think it's pretty clear that Star Trek has a much smaller following than Star Wars.  Don't get me wrong, I personally like Star Trek much more than Star Wars.  But the numbers don't lie, and it really makes sense.  If you wanna compare it to mmos, Star Trek is like a nice deep sandbox game.  Lots of depth, and much more about the humanity, drama, and leadership.  Star Wars is wowified.  Tons of flashy effects and in general mindless entertainment for the masses (not that there's anything wrong with a little mindlessness every now and then).  I think it's clear that TOR will have that mass appeal that STO just won't have because the IP is so much different.  

 

Then again, Cryptic looks like they're trying to wowify STO, so who knows.  Maybe it will be mindless enough for the masses in the end.

 

I don't think either of these games will have any significant impact on Eve.  The only people from Eve that these games will get are those who have recently started and are still trying it out.  Those who have been with eve for years won't even give these new games a second glance.  They're both massively shallow in comparison to eve.

I am not so sure. While I love Star  Wars much more than Trek, I am not sure those numbers speak well. First, Trek has always been more a TV show, while until recently SW was purely movies. Second, the Trek franchise has been in constant decline, so there MAY be much more potential/ex Trekkies who just wait for Trek to recover.

And then we have a real actors TV show on Star Wars and prolly something with the new/old Trek crew from the movie as well. Maybe a new TV show, so the cards can still change altogether in any direction. By the time TOR and STO launch, we never know. But it is true that at this moment the SW franchise sure has more fans than Trek and prolly always had. But "in constant movement the future is". ;)

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Zorndorf

OP: You have to look through history (and by that in the future) by analysing big trends and "waves"

The problem with people here is that they watch the "details" but not the big picture.

The history of mmorpg's within 10 years will be something described as:

First there was Utlima 1(off line) then there was the MUD's, then Utima On line which resulted in a graphical update and streamlining through Everquest.

Then Blizzard became the all time biggest mmorpg designer with World of Warcraft.

--- We are now up to this point ---

Where will we go from here? NO one knows. But games like War, AoC and Aion would hardly get a footnote in that history book.

With WOW, the mmorpg genre has reached its pinnacle in succes rate.

Something NEW has to come out now in ON LNE gaming within an alternate reality setting.

The "killing boars things on a red planet with light sabres and maces" to go to new set levels will simply NOT do it anymore to "advance" in this industry.

So it is either that or play the next 2876th Korean implementation of killing monsters to go to 758th level.

Very easy to do the above btw. Very lucrative to make money for 6 months.

But you can not fool all the people all of the time.

So My guess is the "real effect" will come from a game which will introduce a new kind of on line experience set in an alternate reality where everyone and his dog can find his/her challenge.

If the games can stay away from the blue above, they will be welcomed. If not they will be shot.

 

Aion has around 170 servers worldwide. That's a pretty big footnote.

Sorry, but I see it as a straw fire. I mean, I know humans are easy to entertain, but I SO don't understand the hype - and hype it is, IMO. I am quite sure it will soon go the way of WAR and AoC. It will have its place, but I don't see the revolution here.

Sorry, it's already far to late for that. Age of Conan and Warhammer Online crashed and burned about a month after their release.

Aion has been out for a long time now in most regions and it's doing great.

It doesn't have to be a revolution. Very few of the biggest mmorpgs around have been revolution. People seem to have this misconception that you need to be innovative to be successful.

Originally posted by Masoniclight

So, I throw this out to all you awesome people here on the Threads:

What will be the real effect upon the MMO universe be when STO and SWTOR come online?

Will either game challenge the prowess and populations of WoW, Aion and other big subscriber games?

Will either game push Eve Online out of the stranglehold it's had for the Sci-Fi genre of MMOs?

If we assume for sake of argument that both games are of at least pretty fair quality, then what will be their limitation? Will they be beyond successful of even the hype they are getting now or will they only remain "niche" games?

Keep in mind the two game companies (Cryptic for Star Trek and Bioware for Star Wars) are both excellent game developers and their reputations are at stake with these huge titles.

Let me hear your opinions and thoughts about what (if any) impact these two potentially mega-games may have on the MMO universe.

Wel I need to be honost and have a very low expectation lvl for games made by Cryptic which is personal as I fully know that many do enjoy games they have developed.
 

For me again personal I feel Bioware as a gamecompany is leaps ahead compared to a gamecompany like Cryptic, though C has more experiance within the MMO genre I still feel the gamecompany is pretty blindsided and goes for just one direction, sure they are great at customisation with characters, I just don't feel a MMORPG fibe out of their games as the focus of their game is to much combat oriented for my taste, even thought I love superhero's I just have a different view on how I would want to play a Superhero MMORPG. But do I feel Bioware is up to the task to creat a awesome MMORPG is a question that still remains and have not seen anything from SW:Tor  that made me get a MMORPG fibe, other then that the game will definitly be a great "game", so far not so much MMORPG in terms what I expect from a MMORPG. But between STO and SW:Tor I definitly feel that Bioware will be the winner....sort of speak as I honostly hope both do well even if they turn out not for me.

EVE, don't think that game has to worry about SW:ToR or STO

All you guys comparing the fact that STO is in the Star Trek universe and TOR in Star Wars are missing a huge point.

I, myself, would get TOR were it any other universe simply because Bioware is the developer. And I'm sure I speak for many others as well.

Never in my life have I ever been disappointed in a release from them. Never have they made promises and not delivered. Never have they released a game earlier then they should.

And the fact that they're doing something revolutionary-circling the game around story-will bring into the MMO world many RPGers that wanted nothing to do with the shallow, grinding, storyless MMOs such as World of Warcraft (although it has beautiful lore, most people are clueless to it) or Aion.

I have every bit of faith that TOR will be a glorious game, and finally give me reason to quit coming back to WoW for lack of a better game.

Not that STO will be a bad game, as I have faith in it too, but hopefully you all see where I'm coming from.

I'll predict SW:TOR will be a very successful game, possibly even take over the second place crown from LoTRO, but it will never touch WoW.  Why?  Well for one, not everyone is a Star Wars fan.  In fact, some people, for one reason or another, absolutely hate Star Wars.  Secondly, will SW:TOR run on a netbook?  Probably not with a playable framerate.  Another huge (and often overlooked) aspect of WoW's success is that it will run on pretty much any PC on God's green earth that was released in the last 5 years, and even on low settings, the game still looks somewhat decent.  Try running WAR, EQ2, or even LoTRO on their lowest settings and tell me if you still want to play.  I mean, I know graphics aren't all there is to a game, but most MMORPGs look absolutely horrendous when not played near max settings.  

Originally posted by SuperXero89

I'll predict SW:TOR will be a very successful game, possibly even take over the second place crown from LoTRO, but it will never touch WoW.  Why?  Well for one, not everyone is a Star Wars fan.  In fact, some people, for one reason or another, absolutely hate Star Wars.  Secondly, will SW:TOR run on a netbook?  Probably not with a playable framerate.  Another huge (and often overlooked) aspect of WoW's success is that it will run on pretty much any PC on God's green earth that was released in the last 5 years, and even on low settings, the game still looks somewhat decent.  Try running WAR, EQ2, or even LoTRO on their lowest settings and tell me if you still want to play.  I mean, I know graphics aren't all there is to a game, but most MMORPGs look absolutely horrendous when not played near max settings.  

 

Exactly what I think. Plus, TOR really does not need to dethrone WOW to be super successful. Even at  distance second, say half of WOW 's sub player base (5-6 M) will be phenomenal. Even that will be leaps & bounds over any OTHER MMOs in existence right now.

With the new movie coming though, WOW has become a much larger franchise beyond just a MMO. Sam Raimi is a good director and he potentially can make WOW even bigger.

 Superior stuff my friends! This is exactly why I posted this thread.. lots of insightful, well thought out answers.. KEEP IT COMING!!

I have to add some things here as I read all the posts so far. 

In regards to Star Trek Online, I am watching it very, VERY close.. I even belong to a guild ready to go when it goes live. Trek has a large and loyal following as you all know... a following far older than Star Wars, as you also know.. when Trek returned on the big screen it was absolutely AWESOME with AWESOME sauce poured all over it and it re-introduced a great franchise to a whole new batch of folks (and rekindled the love of the already established crowd) I am one of those older gamers and lover of Trek from TOS through Voyager and the Movies (and yes I dont consider Enterprise to be cannon Trek).. I think STO will do better than expected just because my sense is that the lovers of Trek really want to see a great game that speaks to them! That focuses on all that is visualized to be Trek... and when you go on STO's site and read through everything and read the forums as well, I think Cryptic could hit a huge home run here. 

Yes, I hear you all who knock Cryptic, but as a person who has played City of Heroes since it came to be, I have to give props where they are due.. COH broke the mold as a game, it set some serious standards in regards to character creation and uniqueness of characters you could create.. that character generator I believe, has forever changed all other companies' ideas and ways they have to think of when giving a player the freedom to be as unique as possible in their looks, dress and plain overall appearance. COH is a great game.. and yes I know NCSoft has it now and has made even better than perhaps Cryptic could have imagined but I think the bashing of Cryptic might be a little much.. I am currently playing Aion (and still play COH) and I find it an incredibly beautiful and polished MMO (and I don't usually enjoy  high fantasy based MMOs)... I am absolutely loving Aion right now... so I will with hold all judgement of STO until it goes live and then I'll make my decision then..

As for SWTOR... there is only one other game development company, in my opinion, that would have the reputation of quality and the cojones to take on and make successful this awesome  franchise other than Bioware and that would be Bethesda... (the makers of Morrowind, Elder Scrolls and quite possibly the greatest RPG for the PC of all time- Oblivion)... Bioware is might be the second best RPG game developer we have ever seen. Neverwinter Nights, NWN 2 (and all expansions) KOTOR and KOTOR 2... have been consistently played and rated by both critic and gamer alike receiving the highest awards, ratings and kudeos for years. These four games have consistently been critic's choices in magazines and e-zines time after time after time.

We all remember that Blizzard once was a great game developer that never did an MMO before either.. and look what happened.. Bioware could be the next great thing here and with the huge fan base that is all things Star Wars, look out! 

I believe that if Bioware even puts out SWTOR and the game is only HALF of the quality that Bioware can produce, the game will still be incredible, if though Bioware puts out what many of us have come to expect from them then TOR could be bigger than anyone can imagine.. I expect big things from TOR just because of the company creating it.

In either case, I feel that STO and TOR will have a significant (if not huge) impact on the MMO market.. but more importantly, either game might just be one of those games that make us remember why we play MMOs in the first place: to have FUN, to live outside our lives and to do things we can't do in this reality.. 

Nevertheless, please continue this great conversation, let's hear from all you loyal, longtime and hardcore fans of both franchises! Give us YOUR take on two of the greatest science-fiction/science fantasy storylines as they will soon become MMOs!

So Mote It Be!

 STO and TOR are........................................................

THE WOW TAG TEAM KILLA'S HAHAHAHA! ITS OVER FOOL! IN 2010 WOW DIES FINALLY AND FOREVER!

"Aion has been out for a long time now in most regions and it's doing great."
 

Asian success does not equal NA and European success.  History actually suggests the opposite.

The chances of either of these games threatening WoW is slim to none.  I think the majority of the mmorpg community has little interest in STO, so much that most gamers know little to nothing about it and are not in a rush to learn.  And although it is still somewhat early, the videos posted by Bioware suggest that TOR will have a popular, but limited following.  The hack and slash nature of the game, the mundane combat abilities, and the lack of challenge suggest that TOR will likely end up being the offspring of a fps father and hack and slash mmo mother.  I know some gamers love it, but I personally could care less about voice overs and forced story arcs.  More importantly, for those that have watched the videos, I could not stand the clip of the player standing in front of 3 npcs at close range and getting continually shot, yet their health barely being affected at all.  This was also the case when the sith warrior fought the "challenging" jedi knight.

I truly hope I am wrong about TOR, but so far, it looks like a huge disappointment to those who wanted a real mmorpg and those who saw what SWG could have been.